12000 mile UOA

[Bill Lalk]

Well I finally have the UOA on Mobil One 0-20, 12,300 miles on oil, 29,100 on the 04'. And, you guys were right. If I am understanding the findings correctly, I may be prematurely wearing out my engine:nono: Hopefully I haven't too much wear/damage. I am trying 5-20 Mobil One for 5000 miles and will get a second UOA and decide then if I should try a different oil.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/1/4/0/C87851Lalk_Blackstone_1.jpg

[Bill Lalk]

Please give me your thoughts, now that the fine people at .net have installed the report for me:)

[fastblackmerc]

I change my oil, Mobile One 5w-20, and filter every 5K. Looks like you kept the oil in too long and used up all the anti-wear additives out of it.

[LILALLEYKATT]

Royal Purple swears to 15,000 miles without the breakdown while it micro polishes the bearings ...I still think I will change it at around 5K for the piece of mind. I used Mobil 1 in everything I drove for years until I found that out about Royal Purple.

[Bigdogjim]

The "TNB" number is the tell all. At 1.5 they are correct change sooner.

Run another sample and let us know. What oil chage # is this?

[MitchB]

I am responsible for a fleet of 400 diesel powered buses. We pull regular oil samples on the entire fleet. Any sample showing greater than 25 PPM of silicon or aluminum kicks back as critical, meaning the vehicle is down until the oil is changed and corrective action is taken. Silicon is especially damaging as it acts like an abrasive grit circulating in the oil. Silicon comes from unfiltered air entering the engine. If this were my vehicle, I would check the induction system ducting from the throttle body to the air filter housing to ensure there are no leaks. I would also check the seal between the air filter and the housing. Had you changed your oil sooner, you would not have built up these contaminates to the levels shown. Your TBN may be, in part, from the way the vehicle is used. Do you drive your car for significant amounts of time with the engine cold and/or for short trips?

Mitch

[RF Overlord]

Bill:

Wow...where do I start...

First, I agree 100% with all the comments so far. You left this oil in WAY too long.

TBN shouldn't be allowed to fall below ~2...that's the cutoff for additive pack depletion and means you are no longer protected against acid formation, corrosion, sludge build-up, etc.

Second, even though this motor may be a copper-generator, 98 ppm is too high. Mine at 20,000 was 34 ppm and now at 45,000 has settled to 19 ppm. Your numbers indicate possible excessive valvetrain wear.

While your aluminium number is high, it isn't TOO scary, but your iron number IS...taken together they mean you have a lot of wear going on; piston scuffing, bearings, valve guides...keep in mind that Mobil 1 does normally show slightly elevated iron readings, but yours is way beyond that.

Your silicon number, (not to be confused with sili-cone) is also high. I agree with MitchB that you should check the entire intake system; the airbox, air filter, MAF, intake tract, throttle body and upper intake, and be sure everything is sealed and tight. Silicon is an abrasive and may well account for most of the wear you're seeing.

The "classic" Mobil 1 products, as opposed to the newer "Mobil 1 EP", are generally good for somewhere between 8,000 and 10,000 miles, YMMV. Your idea of running 5,000 on the next OCI and re-sampling is a good one. If you are still interested in extended OCIs, you could then try 7,500 and 10,000 and see what UOAs at those points tell you.

Good luck, and if I can be of any help at all, you know where to find me... :D

*EDIT* Did you really use 6 quarts of oil as make-up? Tell me more...did consumption suddenly increase at some point or has your motor always consumed a lot of oil?

[Bluerauder]

First, I agree 100% with all the comments so far. You left this oil in WAY too long.

Was this an "experiment" to test the longevity of the Mobil 1 0-20W oil? :confused:

[AstroVic]

*EDIT* Did you really use 6 quarts of oil as make-up? Tell me more...did consumption suddenly increase at some point or has your motor always consumed a lot of oil?

I agree with all of the above comments. This is truly one of the worst UOAs I've ever seen. While I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, I've looked at a LOT of UOAs and tried to be halfway knowledgeable about what I'm seeing.

I, too, had the question about the makeup oil. I think this was your first UOA, so perhaps you misunderstood what they were asking. The makeup oil is only that amount of oil you *added* during the course of the interval - say, for instance, you went a quart low at the 4,000 mile mark and you added a quart to top it off.

I use Royal Purple synthetics and have used Mobil 1 synthetics extensively in the past so I'm definitely a synthetic fanatic, especially for higher performance or more expensive cars. Still, I think you'd be better off using a cheaper dino oil - or a good blend such as Motorcraft 5W20 - and changing it more frequently (4,000 to 5,000 OCI max) if you're concerned with cost effectiveness.

Otherwise, I generally agree with your plan to limit the OCI to 5,000 miles next time. Maybe a couple of short-OCI runs of 3,000 miles would be useful in "cleaning up" some of the nasty leftover oil that is still in your engine from this last oil change.

Also, please consider posting this over at www.bobistheoilguy.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com) in the UOA section. If you don't have an account there, I'll post it for you if you'll give me permission to do so, with your private information blurred out. ;)

[Bill Lalk]

Thank you guys for your feedback. I was gone for awhile. Sorry for the delay. Now I shall shed some light on your questions.
RF: Astrovic was right about the 6 qts. This is the first time I did a UOA and answered that question wrong. In fact, the car used hardly any oil. In 12000 miles I only added 1 quart. A half here and a half there. But, when I changed it at 12,300, it was almost a quart low. So I guess I used about 2 quarts over the entire 12K.
Bluerauder: No, this was not a test. I would not use my baby as a guinny pig. Actually, I was just ignorant to the vulnerability of this 4.6 and had it drilled into my head how bullit proof they were. Well, I know better now. I have always changed oil in my other rigs at 10K(with synthetic). The 12K miles just got away from me a bit, but never again. I just hope there isn't too much damage. I wanted to drive this ride for a long time.
Mitch: Unfortunately, my MM gets way more short trips around town than longer trips on the highway. I know thats not good. Advice?
Bigdog: This was my 1st oil change. I bought the car used at 16,800. Installed 0-20 Mobil One soon as I got home. 2nd change at 29,100 which is the UOA you see above.:shake:
Astrovic: I see you caught my 6 quart mistake right off. Of coarse you have my permission to post the UOA wherever you like. Thanks for asking and post back anything you feel we may have an interest in reading.
So, whats with this Royal Purple I been hearing about? I have never seen it for sale anyplace. And, is it better than Amsoil/Mobil One? Thanks for all your input!

[AstroVic]

... I was just ignorant to the vulnerability of this 4.6 and had it drilled into my head how bullit proof they were. ... I just hope there isn't too much damage. I wanted to drive this ride for a long time.

Bill, Keep in mind that UOAs are measured in "parts per million" so it's not like you've permanently destroyed your engine or anything. Once crummy UOA doesn't necessarily mean your engine is going to throw a rod, so take heart that this was probably nothing more than just a learning experience. Nothing more, nothing less. Just don't do it again! :)



Mitch: Unfortunately, my MM gets way more short trips around town than longer trips on the highway. I know thats not good. Advice?

The short trips are probably a big reason for your elevated wear numbers. Longer trips allow the oil to get up to operating temperature and to subsequently burn off any impurities (moisture, fuel, etc.) that naturally get into your oil.

A good general rule of thumb is: the shorter your daily trips, the shorter your OCI should be. And vice versa.



Astrovic: ...Of coarse you have my permission to post the UOA wherever you like. ...So, whats with this Royal Purple I been hearing about? I have never seen it for sale anyplace. And, is it better than Amsoil/Mobil One? Thanks for all your input!

I will post it at bobistheoilguy. Thanks for your permission.

Royal Purple is a big-time name in the racing crowd. It's a fairly small company (in the big scheme of things anyhow) and it has a very loyal following among those who use it. Still, it probably isn't any better or worse than Amsoil, Mobil 1, Red Line, etc. At that level, you're probably splitting hairs.

If you'd like to try Royal Purple, I can probably help you out. Their world headquarters is about 25 miles from my house and I have a cash "distributor" account with them. Basically, I get the stuff for half of what you'd pay off the shelf.

Normally, you'll find Royal Purple at O'Reilly Auto Parts, some NAPA Auto Parts, and other auto parts stores. It usually runs about $7-$8 per quart. (I buy it for a hair over $4 a quart with tax included.)

Also, their gear lube is top-notch stuff. Pretty much everyone will probably agree with that. I run the 75W90 in all of my Panthers with excellent results.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to get the UOA. I definitely appreciate it.

[Bill Lalk]

I paid $6 per quart for Mobil One. The Royal Purple seems like a decent price, although I am not worried about a few bucks if its better for my engine. Thanks for the rearend advice, I forgot all about that. If I can't find their products locally, I will PM you. Thank YOU for the help/offer.

[AstroVic]

Bill,

Here is the link to the BITOG posting of your UOA. Check it from time to time to see what kind of comments you get. There are a lot of very well informed tribologists on there who will likely comment on your analysis.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=751812&page=0&vc=#Post751812

Todd

[Loco1234]

if you would liek to read up further on Royal Purple just visit their web site.

http://www.royalpurple.com/

It is very informative... I use Royal purple in everything..... except tranny... Mercon IV is better...

FYI:
Royal Purple is purple becasue of a dye they use so if you have a fuild leak you can use an ulta violet light to make the fuild glow... thus tracking it back to its source much easier...

[RF Overlord]

Bill, if you can get RP for a decent price, go for it.

Mobil 1, RP, AMSOIL, and Red Line are about the only easily available true synthetic oils out there. The others are boutique oils that are either hard to find or very expensive (usually both).

One other oil that's becoming highly regarded on BITOG is Pennzoil Platinum. It's a fair amount less expensive than any of the oils above^^^, especially if you get it at Pep Boys, where there's currently a $15/cs mail-in rebate, bringing it to about $1.99 a quart.

[vkirkend]

I am just afraid to leave any oil in my engine after the normal recommended change time. And if you are using a snythetic, does that mean that you don't change the filter for up to 10 - 15,000 mile??? That is scary to me...

[jgc61sr2002]

I am just afraid to leave any oil in my engine after the normal recommended change time. And if you are using a snythetic, does that mean that you don't change the filter for up to 10 - 15,000 mile??? That is scary to me...



I would change the filter with each oil change.
Why would you put clean oil into a dirty filter?

[fastblackmerc]

I am just afraid to leave any oil in my engine after the normal recommended change time. And if you are using a snythetic, does that mean that you don't change the filter for up to 10 - 15,000 mile??? That is scary to me...
Why would you not spend the extra $5.00 to $8.00 on a new oil filter?

[RF Overlord]

Unfortunately, the oil companies and especially the quick-lube industry have brainwashed people into believing that going 1 mile over the "recommended" interval means instant and total destruction of your motor. That myth is dying, but slowly.

vkirkend, there IS no one oil change interval that is right for everyone. The interval recommended by Ford is ultra-conservative because they can't possibly deal with all the different conditions under which their customers might operate their cars.

The proper oil change interval for any particular vehicle depends entirely on driving conditions. In some cases 3,000 miles is in fact the proper interval, but in the vast majority of cases it's overkill. In most cases, somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 miles is more valid. For instance, if one does a lot of highway driving, a synthetic oil can easily go 10,000 miles, but if you do a lot of short trips in cold weather, then 5,000 might be more appropriate. Caveat: no one should try an extended OCI without doing a UOA, or you could end up like Mr. Lalk ^^^ :P j/k, Bill :D

As far as your filter question, a good filter such as the Motorcraft FL820S, or any of its equivalents from WIX, NAPA Gold, Carquest Blue, Mobil 1, K&N, etc is easily capable of going 10,000 miles. Even the Wally World house brand (SuperTech) filters can do 5,000 miles, although I wouldn't push them any farther.

[Bill Lalk]

I guess the only thing to do now is run the Mobil One up to 5K and post another UOA, because its already in the engine for a couple 100 miles. If that UOA sucks, I may try Royal Purple or sell the car:eek: I don't think I am interested in rebuilding it:shake:
Man, am I gettin' bummed. What the h*lls a matter with me. I destroyed a head on a 94' 4.6(Marquis) that took me 9 months to put back together(yes, I used to be a mechanic) because of lack of funds(and knowledge) by running straight 30w in it. Did I learn nothing! I don't know how my wife lives with me. I need a drink! :fire: Catch you later............

[vkirkend]

Thanks RF Overlord, for the clarification. Of course I always change the oil AND filter during an oil change. And 5000 miles is my limit. I like looking at clean oil on the dipstick. That's my gauge on when to change the oil.

[Mach1]

Oil is just cheap insurance, change it with the filter every 3000 miles or so, follow the owners manual as far as rating/weight/climate recommendations and you have nothing to worry about. Changing oil in these engines is a lot easier, and cheaper, than rebuilding them. Its not complicated.

[Mach1]

One other thing, if the extended interval for changing oil is the main reason for using synthetic, wouldn't you have to change the filter a few times between changes? I have used synthetic and it comes out just as black after 3000 to 4000 miles as plain old valvoline. I'm no oil expert, but I would think dirt, acids, metal particles, etc in oil doesn't help reduce wear, even if it is synthetic.

I thought the big benefit to synthetic was the temp range, it flows better at cold temps and maintains lubricity at high temps better.

[RF Overlord]

I like looking at clean oil on the dipstick. That's my gauge on when to change the oil.Actually, visual inspection is a very unreliable way to judge oil condition. It's entirely possible to have a clean dipstick, yet also have fuel or coolant dilution or additive pack depletion and you will never know it by just looking. Conversely, just because an oil looks dark does not at all indicate that it's time for a change.


Oil is just cheap insurance, change it with the filter every 3000 miles or so, Oil is, without a doubt, cheap insurance, but studies have shown that it IS possible to change your oil TOO often. I have the links somewhere at home and I will edit this post to include them as soon as I locate them.

[AstroVic]

Bill,

Don't feel bad, buddy. At least you did the smart thing and got the UOA done! Now you know for certain where the outer limit is for your particular vehicle, oil choice, and driving conditions.

I also wouldn't recommend jumping overboard and giving up on your car. Like I said before, one bad UOA does not make a car a clunker!

[vkirkend]

I am truly getting an education here. I stand corrected. I want to do the UOI on my Marauder. Is the kit sold in auto part stores, do you get the kit online? Do any of the vendors on this site sell the kits? Inquiring minds want to know. . .

[Bill Lalk]

I am truly getting an education here. I stand corrected. I want to do the UOI on my Marauder. Is the kit sold in auto part stores, do you get the kit online? Do any of the vendors on this site sell the kits? Inquiring minds want to know. . .
Blackstone. Don't have the link right now, but phone is 260-744-2380.

[Bill Lalk]

I am truly getting an education here. I stand corrected. I want to do the UOI on my Marauder. Is the kit sold in auto part stores, do you get the kit online? Do any of the vendors on this site sell the kits? Inquiring minds want to know. . .
Oh, sorry. Kits are free, UOA is $20, but spend the extra $10 for the TBN.

[RF Overlord]

Mach 1, synthetic oil has three (primary) benefits: better flow at very low temps, better resistance to viscosity change and oxidation at very high temps, and better additive packs which allow for longer change intervals.

Regarding your comments above, as I said in my reply to vkirkend, oil colour is a very unreliable indicator of its condition; just because it's dark, doesn't mean it's no longer good. Also, there's no need to change the filter in between extended oil changes, assuming, of course, that a high-quality filter is being used and that the oil change interval is appropriate for the use the vehicle gets. A good filter should be able to handle the needs of a motor that is in sound mechanical condition for 10,000 miles, or in some cases even more. Obviously a motor in poor condition should not be expected to handle an extended OCI on either the oil or the filter.

Please understand that I am not trying to convince everyone that they HAVE to do extended OCIs. I'm just trying to correct the "3000-mile Oil Change Myth" and hopefully allow people to make more informed decisions that will benefit not only their car and their wallet, but also the environment.

[RF Overlord]

www.blackstone-labs.com

[Bill Lalk]

I am truly getting an education here. I stand corrected. I want to do the UOI on my Marauder. Is the kit sold in auto part stores, do you get the kit online? Do any of the vendors on this site sell the kits? Inquiring minds want to know. . .
Sorry again. Heres the link: www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html

[AstroVic]

Bill,

I'm not sure if you've been watching the thread I posted over at BITOG, but most folks are curious as to what kind of air filter you're using. Also, how many months was the oil in the car for you to accumulate 12,300 miles on the sample?

I agree with everything RF Overlord has said. A 5,000 OCI is considered very safe (conservative) with synthetic oil and good filters.

I've personally run many 10,000 mile OCIs, but that was with a Honda that was used almost solely on the highway, racked up lots of miles very quickly, and was maintained in perfect condition at all times.

Every car, driving condition, oil selection, climate, engine condition, etc. has an impact on the useful life of oil. Once you learn a bit more about the variables, you can get a better (more educated) idea of how long is appropriate for you.

[Bill Lalk]

Todd, Thats why I'm a little depressed, because I read some of the posts over where you posted my UOA.:cry: The time frame was 22 months(leave me alone boys, I feel bad enough already) and I still have the factory air filter in it. Everytime I check it, it seems OK. And I could not find any visible air entrance points around the intake system, but, to be honest, I am not exactly sure what I am looking for. All clamps, tubes, etc., all are tight.

[RF Overlord]

Bill, don't be depressed. As Todd said ^^^, at least you were smart enough to get a UOA in the first place, which is something usually only done by big fleet operators and people with BITOG's Disease. :)

With almost 30,000 on the factory air filter, it would probably be wise to change it, even though it looks OK. You may have some pinholes that are allowing more dirt through. Take off the intake tract and see if there's a coating of dust inside. Be a good idea to clean the MAF, too. I use this (http://www.crcindustries.com/auto/content/prod_detail.aspx?PN=05110&S=Y).

[Bill Lalk]

Thanks, I will give it the once over this weekend. Someone suggested changing this new oil soon, like at 500 miles, to try and clean out any/some left over junk. What do you think?

[RF Overlord]

I think that's neither necessary nor useful. All the wear metals and junk were drained out with the last change. Part of the reason they showed up in the UOA could be that your filter was overwhelmed. Check out the Paradise Garage Synthetic Oil Life Study here (http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html). It has some very good reading on filter longevity, additive pack replenishment, and a good comparo between M1 and AMSOIL, which unfortunately was as far as they got.

Presuming the new filter you installed was a GOOD one, you'll be starting fresh. I would, however, drain it at something more reasonable, like 5,000 miles and do another UOA, just to see where you stand.

[chrish]

do you people consider the motorcraft 5w-20 the book recommends synthetic?
it say somthing about synthetic blend on the bottle...if not how many miles to go between ,with the motorcraft?

[RF Overlord]

Motorcraft 5W-20 is a synthetic blend, and is a superb oil. I would not hesitate to run it up to 5,000 miles; more, perhaps, under the right conditions.

[Bigdogjim]

do you people consider the motorcraft 5w-20 the book recommends synthetic?
it say somthing about synthetic blend on the bottle...if not how many miles to go between ,with the motorcraft?
It is a blend. Not a "full" synthetic oil. I was using Mobil One now I use Pensoil Platium.
I have used Blackstone for my work vans (23) all Fords 5.4 the ones on Ford 5W-20 are changed at 8,000 miles after using Blackstone for a few months. THe marauder is on 5,000 miles changes. Works vans go 80,000+ miles a year, the marauder about 8,000 miles a year:)

Note if using a synthetic you are apt to add oil between changes even more so with a high mileage engine. (100,00 + miles)
All results based on real word testing.

[Bill Lalk]

RF, I bought the most expensive filter they had(my wife made me), the K&N. I changed to 5-20 Mobil One from 0-20. I was thinking of going to 5-30 after reading some posts about too thin of oil, especially at the "Bobs oil" site, but I'zz a bit sceert after ruining a head years ago with too thick of oil.

[RF Overlord]

Bill, tell the wife to save her money. The most expensive filter is not always the best choice. While the K&N is an excellent filter, there are others equally good for less money: WIX/NAPA Gold/Carquest blue (same filter, different paint on the can), Purolator, and of course Ford's house-brand Motorcraft is always a good choice.

As far as your oil choice, Mobil 1 5W-20 is an excellent oil for the modular motor...there's no reason to switch to 5W-30 in an N/A car.