View Full Version : Where is the IAT sensor on Trilogy cars?
Looked around my new super beater today in search of the IAT sensor but couldnt find it.
I know it has to be after the blower somewhere, but where?
Also, I noticed the Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor never sees boost the way its hooked up.
Unless a N/A Load table is being used, how or why is it this way?
Thanks for the input!
shakes_26
11-20-2006, 08:28 PM
The BAP runs a hobbs switch (3psi), its usually run off the back of the IC/blower mounting plate down inside the car (drv footweel) and tee'd for boost guage (or a tee off the boost guage mounted into the aux instr pod)...not sure Billy had one..
IAT, unless I'm way off, I believe it simply uses the one built into the stock MAF, there is some benefits to relocating one to the output of the blower/IC...but thats a real hassle. And the existing setup seems to work pretty good.
FordNut
11-20-2006, 08:49 PM
Also, I noticed the Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor never sees boost the way its hooked up.
Have you checked with Dennis? He ran into that on Sherman's car and made some changes.
FordNut
11-20-2006, 09:03 PM
IAT, unless I'm way off, I believe it simply uses the one built into the stock MAF
I don't see anything in the manual about changing it, so I'd say this is true.
Have you checked with Dennis? He ran into that on Sherman's car and made some changes.
No wonder why his car is so fast :)
I don't see anything in the manual about changing it, so I'd say this is true.
Well if thats the case, thats garbage.
bigslim
11-20-2006, 11:00 PM
Zack, did you get the installation manual with the car? If not contact Jerry have him send one to you for future reference.
Zack, did you get the installation manual with the car? If not contact Jerry have him send one to you for future reference.
No, I didnt get one with the car.
I did get one with kit #147 though.
TTT.
I want to know the logic in leaving the IAT before the Blower.
DEFYANT
11-21-2006, 08:24 AM
I'll take a stab at this.
It probably isn't really necessary to relocate the IAT. I am confident this was looked at and studied during the kits inception. For what the kit does at a stock level, even modified like of several cars on the timeslips page, it doesn't really matter.
I have been thinking about relocating mine to read the intake air under the blower. But decided not to disassemble a perfectly good running car to do it.
If the day comes when I remove the blower. I may just do it.
Will you be modifying yours? I'd be interested in the results.
bigslim
11-21-2006, 08:33 AM
No, I didnt get one with the car.
I did get one with kit #147 though.
I knew you had a kit coming. I didn't want say anything. You will be the proud owner of two Trilogy cars. Nice!!!!
Dennis Reinhart
11-21-2006, 08:41 AM
There is none, I would add one if it was my car, and also make sure the fuel rail pressure sensor is boost sensitive.
Dennis Reinhart
11-21-2006, 09:12 AM
The Trilogy kit uses the IAT built into the stock Maf, so the computer sees out side air being drawn in, lets say 65 degrees, but in reality the air temp entering the intake has been raised by over 100 degrees, this is why on all Vortech kits the IAT is placed in front of the TB, not on the inlet of the SC, as in the roots type if you mount a IAT in the intake its far better, than using the IAT built into the stock Marauder Maf, and if you add, a larger maf it will not have a built in IAT, so you would have to add one any way, either way this is just nice to know information, you can tune around the IAT being in the inlet, but again in my opinion having it in the intake is best.
FordNut
11-21-2006, 09:24 AM
you can tune around the IAT being in the inlet
To me this sounds risky. The IAT is estimated based on the temp before the supercharger so if the intercooler fluid leaks out or the intercooler pump goes bad, the actual IAT would be lots higher than the estimated and could cause detonation. But there are lots of Trilogy cars out there so I guess the estimates are pretty good.
I agree Brian Jerry has always told me this, and it could easily be done before the kit is installed.
Im curious to know what guys like MikesMerc do, knowing he has a Lightning Maf and all.
Surely they dont add a sensor in before the blower again?
Do they?
Will you be modifying yours? I'd be interested in the results.
***** yea Im gonna modify it.
Rather set it up the right way.
Sure would be funny if I reinvented the wheel and wiped everones azz. :flamer:
sailsmen
11-21-2006, 09:49 AM
To me this sounds risky. The IAT is estimated based on the temp before the supercharger so if the intercooler fluid leaks out or the intercooler pump goes bad, the actual IAT would be lots higher than the estimated and could cause detonation. But there are lots of Trilogy cars out there so I guess the estimates are pretty good.
As posted previously the wires to the intercoller pump became disconnected on a Trilology and the engine blew up.
shakes_26
11-21-2006, 10:35 AM
I must have missed this one, where was this posted? I searched pretty deep into the archives, no mention of it.
The Intercooler pump connector is a pretty stout design (I've seen a lot worse, and not much better), I dont see it coming loose unless it was not installed correctly.
Besides, I would think...hope...whoever it was would have heard the spark knock-detonation and lifted...
As posted previously the wires to the intercoller pump became disconnected on a Trilology and the engine blew up.
Power Surge
11-21-2006, 10:39 AM
The IAT debate is an ongoing one, with people on both sides of the fence.
Some people like to relocate the IAT sensor downstream of the blower, so that the PCM can compensate for the hotter air charge. This is mainly done on NON-intercooled centrifugal blower setups, where air charge temps can reach 250-300 degrees. The problem with doing this, is that often the stock IAT tables are left stock, and that's not really optimum for performance or consistancy.
Other people like to disable the IAT stuff. I prefer this method myself. I would rather modify the calibration to do what I want, as opposed to doing what the PCM wants (because it's not optimum usually). Most of the vehicles that I do are intercooled, and it's really not needed to have the IAT downstream of the blower on an intercooled vehicle.
I supposed if you wanted to have an extra element of safety, you could put the IAT downstream, and then rework the IAT tables to pull spark if the temps go extreme. It won't hurt anything as long as the tables are setup right.
Here's some more food for thought... factory Ford supercharged vehicles still have the IAT in the intake tube ;).
Joe Walsh
11-21-2006, 10:48 AM
I would think that anyone utilizing a Methanol injection system should move the IAT downstream to take full advantage of the extra cooling.
Here's some more food for thought... factory Ford supercharged vehicles still have the IAT in the intake tube ;).
Yea and they also have what is called the IAT2.
Come on Sal you should know this.
I must have missed this one, where was this posted? I searched pretty deep into the archives, no mention of it.
The Intercooler pump connector is a pretty stout design (I've seen a lot worse, and not much better), I dont see it coming loose unless it was not installed correctly.
Besides, I would think...hope...whoever it was would have heard the spark knock-detonation and lifted...
It was Jerry Barnes in Trilogy 1
Power Surge
11-21-2006, 11:01 AM
Yea and they also have what is called the IAT2.
Come on Sal you should know this.
Yes, but the IAT2 is not used for timing. It's to turn the I/C pump on and off.
Yes, but the IAT2 is not used for timing. It's to turn the I/C pump on and off.
Ok, that I didnt know.
Thanks
Dennis Reinhart
11-21-2006, 11:39 AM
More food for thought, some Ford vehicles also have knock sensors that were never turned on in the software as well.
Bradley G
11-21-2006, 12:06 PM
I think you doubled the Trilogy powerd Marauder count, in Chicago, with your recent aquisitions.:coolman:
Three S/C'ed MM's? :rasta: Rat Dog!
No, I didnt get one with the car.
I did get one with kit #147 though.
I have my answers, thanks everyone.
The silence was deafening in the other thread. :rolleyes:
Ford factory supercharged vehicles have 2 IAT sensors. The first is called the IAT. It measures incoming Ambient air and references it to other functions in the software. Doesnt really play an important role.
Now, the key sensor is called the IAT2, located downstream (after the blower)
This is the sensor the computer looks at to make all of its timing decisions.
Quite simply, it wont add timing, rather retard timing should a problem surface in the intercooler or plumbing.
Likewise it will add timing when the air charge is cool.
Now heres where I disagree with the Trilogy setup:
The tune supplied is essentially 'fixed'. It is based on an intercooler that is functioning and cooling the air after the blower to a fixed temperature value based on what the IAT has measured.
What this means is if the IAT has measured 70 degree air passing the air cleaner, it is programmed to think the air entering the engine is, say 40 degrees higher. (ALWAYS)
This is where the problem lies.
If a wire comes loose from the pump, the pump seizes or anything else goes wrong, the computer is adding spark or referencing a spark table based on 110 degree air entering the engine. If the real temperature of the air is 170, which it will be if the IC fails, and it references the 110 degree spark table, BOOM.
Another interesting detail I just remembered.
Back in MV-2 when Dave and I were racing, he was using this Cryo freezing spray to chill the intercooler before making runs.
Duh, it just dawned on me that he could have d***** the intercooler in dry ice and it wouldnt have made a difference in performance.
THE COMPUTER DID NOT KNOW THE AIR ENTERING THE ENGINE WAS ANY COOLER!
Think about it.
Now, the Trilogy kit as shipped does exactly what is promises to do, and well.
For any mods done to this kit (and voiding the warranty) this IAT problem is holding the serious drag racer back, a lot.
RR|Suki
11-25-2006, 02:41 PM
The silence was deafening in the other thread. :rolleyes:
Ford factory supercharged vehicles have 2 IAT sensors. The first is called the IAT. It measures incoming Ambient air and references it to other functions in the software. Doesnt really play an important role.
Now, the key sensor is called the IAT2, located downstream (after the blower)
This is the sensor the computer looks at to make all of its timing decisions.
Quite simply, it wont add timing, rather retard timing should a problem surface in the intercooler or plumbing.
Likewise it will add timing when the air charge is cool.
Now heres where I disagree with the Trilogy setup:
The tune supplied is essentially 'fixed'. It is based on an intercooler that is functioning and cooling the air after the blower to a fixed temperature value based on what the IAT has measured.
What this means is if the IAT has measured 70 degree air passing the air cleaner, it is programmed to think the air entering the engine is, say 40 degrees higher. (ALWAYS)
This is where the problem lies.
If a wire comes loose from the pump, the pump seizes or anything else goes wrong, the computer is adding spark or referencing a spark table based on 110 degree air entering the engine. If the real temperature of the air is 170, which it will be if the IC fails, and it references the 110 degree spark table, BOOM.
Another interesting detail I just remembered.
Back in MV-2 when Dave and I were racing, he was using this Cryo freezing spray to chill the intercooler before making runs.
Duh, it just dawned on me that he could have d***** the intercooler in dry ice and it wouldnt have made a difference in performance.
THE COMPUTER DID NOT KNOW THE AIR ENTERING THE ENGINE WAS ANY COOLER!
Think about it.
Now, the Trilogy kit as shipped does exactly what is promises to do, and well.
For any mods done to this kit (and voiding the warranty) this IAT problem is holding the serious drag racer back, a lot.
If the pump does indeed fail, would the engine go before the EEC would pick up the problem in the O2 readings...
Power Surge
11-25-2006, 02:49 PM
Guess you didn't believe what I wrote in the other thread.
Guess you didn't believe what I wrote in the other thread.
You wrote in the other thread that the IAT2 turns off the IC pump.
If you can prove that, i'll ..........
edit: adding a smilie:D
Cobra25
11-25-2006, 06:14 PM
Dennis what do you mean " Make sure the fuel rail pressure sensor is Boost sensitive? "
There is none, I would add one if it was my car, and also make sure the fuel rail pressure sensor is boost sensitive.
Bradley G
11-25-2006, 06:14 PM
Can you link to the other thread, I did not see it.
Sorry nevermind.
Guess you didn't believe what I wrote in the other thread.
Power Surge
11-25-2006, 06:23 PM
Dennis what do you mean " Make sure the fuel rail pressure sensor is Boost sensitive? "
He means make sure the line to the rail sensor goes AFTER the blower, so it sees vacuum and boost, as opposed to before the blower, were it only sees vacuum.
tmac1337
11-25-2006, 06:45 PM
I believe I brought up this IAT topic well over a year ago and was given a vacation for it.............
It is good to see that this site is now very reasonable and people can discuss the topic, acquire some knowledge, without getting a boot in the butt!
Of course I was also given a vacation when I asked what the spark advance was..........
SergntMac
11-25-2006, 07:30 PM
I believe I brought up this IAT topic well over a year ago and was given a vacation for it...
It is good to see that this site is now very reasonable and people can discuss the topic, acquire some knowledge, without getting a boot in the butt!
Of course I was also given a vacation when I asked what the spark advance was...That was "then", Tim, this is now.
Please enjoy our new hospitality and refreshed tolerance, but with some new respect too?
Thanks, and IMHO, I hope to hear more from you as well.
MitchB
11-25-2006, 07:37 PM
Another interesting detail I just remembered.
Back in MV-2 when Dave and I were racing, he was using this Cryo freezing spray to chill the intercooler before making runs.
Duh, it just dawned on me that he could have d***** the intercooler in dry ice and it wouldnt have made a difference in performance.
THE COMPUTER DID NOT KNOW THE AIR ENTERING THE ENGINE WAS ANY COOLER!
Think about it
Was the air cooler? Cooler air has greater density? Air with greater density should make more power.
Mitch
DEFYANT
11-25-2006, 08:05 PM
Was the air cooler? Cooler air has greater density? Air with greater density should make more power.
Mitch
We all know that. The fact is there are over 140 Trilogy cars running w/o any failing IC pumps. Add that Ford uses this exact same part in the 03/04 Cobras. They are holding up fine.
Not satisifed yet? Check out www.svtperformance.com (http://www.svtperformance.com). There are alot of 03/04 Cobras there. You do not hear much about IC pumps failing.
Jerry Barnes made a good choice when he picked this IC pump.
Is the issue brought up possible? Yes. Probable? No.
I am more concerned about the short block, transmission, or rear axle letting go.
With exception for a few, "serious drag racers" don't drive Marauders.
Dennis Reinhart
11-25-2006, 08:14 PM
Dennis what do you mean " Make sure the fuel rail pressure sensor is Boost sensitive? "
As what Sal said, JW tuned a Trilogy here, and I have a dyno jet with a CDS so I can map boost as well as air temp before and after the heat exchanger, so the normal place to take a boost sample is the FPR and when we did our first pull, there was no boost source , on the Trilogy there is only one port that is boost sensitive and its in the back of the intake and is shown in the install as a port for a boost Gage, this should be T off'ed to include the FRPR so that this can be accounted for when going from vacuum to boost at WOT.
Jerry Barnes
11-25-2006, 08:36 PM
Guys,
I would not relocate any sensors or change the PCM tables unless you know what you are doing. I have some of the fastest and MOST RELIABLE Marauders on the planet. I do not change the sensors unless I know what we are doing and that is after discussing, reviewing and researching all of the areas that can be affected. Some of you guys blow things up before you do any SERIOUS homework!!! There are hundreds of Phd's looking at thousands of pieces of research data for all types of conditions. I do not have time to address this question right now, but I can say one thing, "Stop tinkering with things you know nothing about". And I am very busy and do not have time to chase every hair-brianed theory some weekend garage mechnic dreams up.
We designed a Supercharger Kit that works very well and is reliable. We test, test, test before we give a customer a product. If we don't, customers will be saying we sold them a piece of ***** and stop doing business with us.
If everyone is so smart, don't buy our kit and build your own. I would think people would learn from the first 5 engines they smoked!
Jerry
We all know that. The fact is there are over 140 Trilogy cars running w/o any failing IC pumps. Add that Ford uses this exact same part in the 03/04 Cobras. They are holding up fine.
Not satisifed yet? Check out www.svtperformance.com (http://www.svtperformance.com). There are alot of 03/04 Cobras there. You do not hear much about IC pumps failing.
Jerry Barnes made a good choice when he picked this IC pump.
Is the issue brought up possible? Yes. Probable? No.
I am more concerned about the short block, transmission, or rear axle letting go.
With exception for a few, "serious drag racers" don't drive Marauders.
This topic isnt about the reliability of the IC pump.
Please dont derail everyone.
Thanks
Jerry, we are not bashing the kit, just pointing out a major oversight in its design.
Ive yet to hear an explanation as to why it is the way it is.
Jerry Barnes
11-25-2006, 08:52 PM
Jerry, we are not bashing the kit, just pointing out a major oversight in its design.
Ive yet to hear an explanation as to why it is the way it is.
Zack,
We call it a good design that matches the function of the stock PCM and MAF module. Because you don't understand the interaction of the pieces of the system, you call it a design flaw. There is many good reasons that the design is the way it is. I will get all of the data and present it when I have time and not shoot from the hip.
And I don't worry about you bashing our Supercharger Kit, believe me!
Jerry
Dennis Reinhart
11-25-2006, 08:55 PM
Well Jerry no one questioned whether your cars were the fastest, or the most reliable, the whole post is about where is the IAT, and you use yours on the inlet of the SC kit. some people prefer a IAT that shows actual inlet air temp entering the intake manifold, and the fact was brought out that the fuel rail pressure sensor is not boost sensitive at WOT on the Trilogy kit, this is not a slam, just a very good observation. In a Centrifugal blower the whole intake vacuum system becomes boost sensitive so the vacuum line going to the FRPS is boost sensitive. On the Eaton its not, there is only one port that is vacuum sensitive, which does not include the FRPS but the sensor can be added easily with a T, again this depends on the tuner, what he prefers, and in the Trilogy car we had here we did T off the vacuum so the fuel rail pressure sensor was boost sensitive. The tuner I had here prefers to have the IAT real time and I sure want the fuel rail pressure sensor to know when the car is transitioning form vacuum to boost.
Dennis Reinhart
11-25-2006, 08:58 PM
No one said there was any thing wrong with the kit, where in this post does it say that????
I guess I don't understand this thread. I should say that I don't understand what is wrong with a kit that has been sold to almost 150 people.
This kit was developed with the help of Ford's engineering and CAD design. It was developed with degreed engineers. I am sure that all of this was looked at when it was in the design stages.
If you had a problem with this kits design why are you asking it here in a public forum and not contacting Jerry personally as you did when you ordered a Trilogy kit from him?
Zack, I am not going to take away the fact that you maybe a good wrench. But think about it, how many cars have you blown up before coming to a safe mod or a new kind of blower kit install?
I'm sure Jerry will comment on your response.
Unless you can provide the answers Im looking for, please dont use the fact there are 150 Trilogy cars on the road running fine as an answer.
Why would you build and market what essentially is a Cobra supercharger system and not use an IAT after the blower?.
And the fact that i bought kit # 147 has nothing to do with anything.
Jerry Barnes
11-25-2006, 09:00 PM
Zack,
I am not jumping with a quick response without having time to check the facts, the design, the calibration and several other important factors. If you made a Supercharger Kit and blew up as many engines as you have blown up, no one would buy your product.
Jerry
Zack,
I am not jumping with a quick response without having time to check the facts, the design, the calibration and several other important factors. If you made a Supercharger Kit and blew up as many engines as you have blown up, no one would buy your product.
Jerry
Thats all im asking for!
And for the record, I never blew up an engine. I did have a few engine builders let me down.
Power Surge
11-25-2006, 09:05 PM
Why do you keep asking this question? You've been given answers, but choose to ignore them. What does it matter at this point what anyone else thinks. You're just going to keep asking until you get the answer you want to hear. Just do it the way you want to do it and be happy with yourself.
martyo
11-25-2006, 09:06 PM
I would think people would learn from the first 5 engines they smoked!
We only blew up one motor, so we must be pretty darn smart! :D
Jerry: Non illegitimus carborundum! :up:
MI2QWK4U
11-25-2006, 09:17 PM
No one said there was any thing wrong with the kit, where in this post does it say that????
This statement alludes to the fact that something is wrong with the kit, because there is a "Major Oversite in it's design". There was more engineering done with and to the Trilogy design than all of the other supercharger kits combined. Give credit where credit is due, if the Ford and Trilogy engineers come up with a design, maybe they know more than the average wrench.
just pointing out a major oversight in its design.
Ive yet to hear an explanation as to why it is the way it is.
Jerry Barnes
11-25-2006, 09:18 PM
We only blew up one motor, so we must be pretty darn smart! :D
Jerry: Non illegitimus carborundum! :up:
I actually blew up 2 engines. My IAT was strapped to my A$$ and I used a 200 shot of nitrous.
I will formally start a fund raiser tomorrow.
Jerry
jabo731
11-25-2006, 09:18 PM
Why do you keep asking this question? You've been given answers, but choose to ignore them. What does it matter at this point what anyone else thinks. You're just going to keep asking until you get the answer you want to hear. Just do it the way you want to do it and be happy with yourself.
Amen Already!!!
Amen Already!!!
Ok wiseguy, post the answers.
MI2QWK4U
11-25-2006, 09:23 PM
I will formally start a fund raiser tomorrow.
Jerry
Put me down for $50... you take paypal?
DEFYANT
11-25-2006, 09:24 PM
Why do you keep asking this question? You've been given answers, but choose to ignore them. What does it matter at this point what anyone else thinks. You're just going to keep asking until you get the answer you want to hear. Just do it the way you want to do it and be happy with yourself.
Surge, I regretfully suggest this is becoming S/C wars part two.
You are correct. The question has been answered. The thread should have been shut down several posts ago.
This statement alludes to the fact that something is wrong with the kit, because there is a "Major Oversite in it's design". There was more engineering done with and to the Trilogy design than all of the other supercharger kits combined. Give credit where credit is due, if the Ford and Trilogy engineers come up with a design, maybe they know more than the average wrench.
No one is questioning the fit and finish of the kit. (The stuff that was engineered) It is indeed awesome and I would have bought one at the first open house had they been available that day.
Dont take offense to my question Dave, but please feel free to answer it, if you can.
jabo731
11-25-2006, 09:25 PM
Not being a wiseguy, but I do believe if I thought there was a problem with something I bought I would contact the person I bought it from VIA the landline or the telephone if I may.
Surge, I regretfully suggest this is becoming S/C wars part two.
You are correct. The question has been answered. The thread should have been shut down several posts ago.
Ok wiseguy #2, find me the answers and post them.
jabo731
11-25-2006, 09:30 PM
Ok wiseguy #2, find me the answers and post them.
This is what's know as an "Internet Rambo"
Jerry Barnes
11-25-2006, 09:33 PM
No one is questioning the fit and finish of the kit. (The stuff that was engineered) It is indeed awesome and I would have bought one at the first open house had they been available that day.
Dont take offense to my question Dave, but please feel free to answer it, if you can.
Zack,
As I have said before, when all of the data is available I will give it to you. But, I am very busy and do not have time to chase every question you can dream up. You have two Trilogy Marauders now. Go ahead, modify one of them with your theories and see what happens. Just don't tell me we have a flawed design while you sit at home on the couch thinking up ways to change a reliable product. I take offense at that. And I don't jump up and run to the office every time you have a theory you want to test.
And what does "fit and finish" have to do with reliabilty and quality?
Jerry
martyo
11-25-2006, 09:39 PM
I actually blew up 2 engines. My IAT was strapped to my A$$ and I used a 200 shot of nitrous.
I will formally start a fund raiser tomorrow.
Jerry
I will send you a case of Diet Coke and match the first 300 bucks that is pledged and paid in.
Zack,
As I have said before, when all of the data is available I will give it to you. But, I am very busy and do not have time to chase every question you can dream up. You have two Trilogy Marauders now. Go ahead, modify one of them with your theories and see what happens. Just don't tell me we have a flawed design while you sit at home on the couch thinking up ways to change a reliable product. I take offense at that. And I don't jump up and run to the office every time you have a theory you want to test.
Jerry
I believe i posted the Trilogy kit as shipped is both reliable and proven. Im not questioning this.
I clearly stated (in a nut shell) that those who modify their kits outside your engineering and design parameters are at risk and stand to gain by setting it up the way I suggest.
You as the owner do not need to defend any kit that has had its warranty voided.
sailsmen
11-25-2006, 09:42 PM
I have raced low volume high performance sailboats for 35+ years, some of the boats were custom $1 mil +. Built by the best builders and best naval engineers.
In my experience and I am confident to say in all of sailboat racing not a single racing sailboat as ever existed that came out perfect. They were all modified by us lowly crew and in most cases were made faster.
As a teenager I pointed out a design flaw in a new sail made by an inernational company to a very brillant man with many letters behind his name who became president of the company and ran several America's Cup campaigns. Did I understand the theories of aerodynamics and the load patterns of aramid fibers, no. But I new what shape the sail was suppose to have and I knew how the boat was suppose to "feel".
I have crewed for several Olympic Gold Medal winners and none had an engineering back ground or worked in the industry. They all knew how to modify their boats to make them faster.
Many of your top and record setting drag racers have had no fomal education, yet they have the "feel".
The best R&D for a product that is raced is the racer.
MI2QWK4U
11-25-2006, 09:45 PM
No one is questioning the fit and finish of the kit. (The stuff that was engineered) It is indeed awesome and I would have bought one at the first open house had they been available that day.
Dont take offense to my question Dave, but please feel free to answer it, if you can.
Zack, I am sorry, I can not answer the question. Things were designed by folks much more intelligent than I am with engineering. I guess I was taken back with the statement that there was a major oversight in the design. I will bow out and go back where I belong, MCM.com.
OneBADLsE
11-25-2006, 09:50 PM
Zack, I am sorry, I can not answer the question. Things were designed by folks much more intelligent than I am with engineering. I guess I was taken back with the statement that there was a major oversight in the design. I will bow out and go back where I belong, MCM.com.
MelonCapitolManagment.com???? :confused:
Jerry Barnes
11-25-2006, 09:55 PM
I believe i posted the Trilogy kit as shipped is both reliable and proven. Im not questioning this.
I clearly stated (in a nut shell) that those who modify their kits outside your engineering and design parameters are at risk and stand to gain by setting it up the way I suggest.
You as the owner do not need to defend any kit that has had its warranty voided.
Zack,
Fact #1 : You mentioned the kit is flawed by the location and function of the IAT. It is not!
Fact #2 : When you mention that the IAT sensor on the TRILOGY KIT is not optimally placed. You are implying that we took a short cut in the design and engineering of the system. We did not.
Fact #3 : Please show me YOUR factual data that supports your theory. After you have collected the data please present it on this forum for everyone's benefit. Please show me your reliability data. Or show me your improved performance numbers, real world and laboratory, to support the theory.
And Sailman just mentioned that people that are racers are more knowledgeable. No offense, but just about every trip down the track you will find my old wrinkled a$$ in the seat. I think that makes me a racer also. And I am one competitive SOB, just ask another competitive SOB, MartyO. And I use to race saliboats also, and I usually won.
Zack, I am not starting a fight, but the tone of your notes comes across the wrong way, at times. You have a valid question and given time I will research it. But, your delivery is somewhat poor.
Jerry
MM03MOK
11-25-2006, 10:07 PM
Please, let's let this be until Jerry can share his research and answer Zack's questions. Thanks, Jerry.
bigslim
11-25-2006, 10:25 PM
I cannot belive that this thread is still active. If it had been one directed at Reinhart it would have been closed a long time ago. It is now getting to the point of it being vendor bashing. This thread has run it's course. Please shut it down.
tmac1337
11-26-2006, 12:57 AM
Why close this thread, Zack asked for some answers and has been respectful.....and has not received them......instead is asked to supply data......sounds like some people are upset they've lost some control and are already pissed off....
These obviously are not the old days.....just be respectfula and answer the question with some data instead of saying I don't have the time right now but do have the time to psuedo answer multiple times......does that make any sense?
In the old days I asked what the timing in the kit was out of curiousity and was given a vacation.
I also asked about the IAT sensor thing when a good friend of mine and I noticed he did not have a proper one after the air was compressed and cooled on his kit.....and got a vacation.
I always posted what my IAT and timing advance was?
I have a question: What is the timing advance on the base kit? Is it 10.5 or is it not? I'm ready for another vacation!
What is wrong with asking technical questions? Anybody have any questions about my kit, come over to the house with your tools and take it apart, call my tuner, call the vendor, I'll tell you what I know........maybe even bake you a cake!
BruteForce
11-26-2006, 02:32 AM
Zack,
I am not jumping with a quick response without having time to check the facts, the design, the calibration and several other important factors. If you made a Supercharger Kit and blew up as many engines as you have blown up, no one would buy your product.
Jerry
Not taking sides... just a word on conversational etiquette. Try answers that do not include personal attacks. They make you sound petty.
MM2004
11-26-2006, 05:56 AM
I cannot belive that this thread is still active. If it had been one directed at Reinhart it would have been closed a long time ago. It is now getting to the point of it being vendor bashing. This thread has run it's course. Please shut it down.
Please read Mary's post above yours. Let it be until Jerry researches the answers Zack is looking for.
And please refrain from comments based on your assumptions without fact.
Thanks,
Mike.
Tallboy
11-26-2006, 06:21 AM
How 'bout we do this? We'll let Jerry pull one of his engineers aside and have him research the technical answer to Zack's question. Zack now owns two Trilogys, my guess is he's already thought of ways to modify one to accept a relocated or additional IAT sensor. We'll see what each comes up with, and go from there?
I'm curious about one thing, Zack...where's the IAT on your twin-screw car?
O's Fan Rich
11-26-2006, 06:33 AM
I have raced low volume high performance sailboats for 35+ years, some of the boats were custom $1 mil +. Built by the best builders and best naval engineers.
In my experience and I am confident to say in all of sailboat racing not a single racing sailboat as ever existed that came out perfect. They were all modified by us lowly crew and in most cases were made faster.
As a teenager I pointed out a design flaw in a new sail made by an inernational company to a very brillant man with many letters behind his name who became president of the company and ran several America's Cup campaigns. Did I understand the theories of aerodynamics and the load patterns of aramid fibers, no. But I new what shape the sail was suppose to have and I knew how the boat was suppose to "feel".
I have crewed for several Olympic Gold Medal winners and none had an engineering back ground or worked in the industry. They all knew how to modify their boats to make them faster.
Many of your top and record setting drag racers have had no fomal education, yet they have the "feel".
The best R&D for a product that is raced is the racer.
Ok, anyone else think this just an awesomely COOL post!!! ( and pretty acurate as to the point) Color me jealous.
I'd love to do this some time.... MMV? at the coast? with a sailboat?
And hey, if Zack feels this can be done and improve, let him have at it. He knows the warranty is gone and that Jerry's kit is toatally awesome as is. He's just trying to tweak things... in many ways I think.
I can't answer the question as I am a simple Caveman, and your IAT sensors frighten me.....
MERCMAN
11-26-2006, 06:43 AM
I am a simple Caveman
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/9/7/6/caveman.bmp
UGH,,, FIRE GOOD!!!:lol:
SergntMac
11-26-2006, 06:46 AM
Merged two active threads on one topic, sorry for any confusion.
Carry on gents.
DEFYANT
11-26-2006, 06:53 AM
Ok, anyone else think this just an awesomely COOL post!!! ( and pretty acurate as to the point) Color me jealous.
I'd love to do this some time.... MMV? at the coast? with a sailboat?
And hey, if Zack feels this can be done and improve, let him have at it. He knows the warranty is gone and that Jerry's kit is toatally awesome as is. He's just trying to tweak things... in many ways I think.
I can't answer the question as I am a simple Caveman, and your IAT sensors frighten me.....
Hey Rich, the only thing getting tweaked is this forum. It seems before you and I came on this board, asking this question was a no-no. Zack was around when Tmac asked this (so called) provocitive question and the Admin at the time felt it was inappropriate.
With the new Admin in place, the old questions I suspect that are already answered, can be asked publicly.
Don't get me wrong - I had the same question. The difference is, I asked Lidio in person during Woodward. It is still a curiosity to know what the under blower intake temps are, but I don't need to know that bad.
Smokie
11-26-2006, 07:03 AM
I happen to be one of those guys that only knows a little bit and I am not an engineer, engineers try to determine and predict what will happen in the real world...they are human, math can only take you so far.
Zack take heed of my words, I know you taken the arrows before and I stood up for you...more than once. Jerry is a good man, a friend and very honest businessman that provides a turnkey kit that exactly as is sold it provides power, realibility and OEM looks second to none.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions and brainstorming but your TONE was unfriendly, ask in a friendly way, ask as you would a friend; Jerry has earned that consideration at the very least.
SergntMac
11-26-2006, 07:25 AM
I just merged the two threads and went back to the beginning to read what affect that may have on the quality of posted messages. I deleted only one, it was mine and it contained a link to the former thread now merged.
Other than this, I see no real problems here. There are a few posts with some "seasoning" in them, and some wisecracks as well, but it appears to have been exchanged from both "sides" of the fence.
Rather than try to police 75+ threads, I suggest everyone cool off and wait for a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. Meanwhile, it's fairly clear that Zack has not been critical of the Trilogy product as a whole, or Jerry Barnes' effort to bering that to the market. But, Zack does have some questions about the design amd some of you need to respect that, and stop trying to sir the pot into something it's not.
As long as the discussion continues in a reasonable manner, this thread will not be shut down. A question is on the table, and the sooner it gets answered, the sooner this will pass us by.
Thank you, carry on gents.
martyo
11-26-2006, 07:34 AM
But, Zack does have some questions about the design amd some of you need to respect that, and stop trying to sir the pot into something it's not.
Mac: I don't think anyone has a problem with Zack's questions, I think it is just the way they were asked.
Carry on.
FordNut
11-26-2006, 07:47 AM
I'm curious about one thing, Zack...where's the IAT on your twin-screw car?
I can answer that one. I've been comparing the manuals for the KB and the Trilogy. Each kit has some features I like better than the other.
The KB has the IAT sensor after the blower and intercooler. It is mounted in a hole in the blower mounting plate, near the intake port for cylinder #8.
The KB also has the FRPS connected to a boost-referenced port.
As for Power Surge's comments on the function of IAT2 on factory supercharged Fords, I do know my tuner makes timing adjustments based on IAT2 temperature readings. Several other reputable tuners I've talked to also use this reading for determining timing advance. Not sure about intercooler pump turn on logic.
Jerry Barnes
11-26-2006, 07:54 AM
I happen to be one of those guys that only knows a little bit and I am not an engineer, engineers try to determine and predict what will happen in the real world...they are human, math can only take you so far.
Zack take heed of my words, I know you taken the arrows before and I stood up for you...more than once. Jerry is a good man, a friend and very honest businessman that provides a turnkey kit that exactly as is sold it provides power, realibility and OEM looks second to none.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions and brainstorming but your TONE was unfriendly, ask in a friendly way, ask as you would a friend; Jerry has earned that consideration at the very least.
Thanks Smokie, I could not have said it better myself. In the total scheme of things, the question is a good question. But, we have designed a turnkey solution for simplicity and reliability. For every customer, we can have 10 changes to the S/C system to improve the performance, functionality, economy, etc. I am not saying our S/C kit is perfect, but we have done everything possible to make it fast, reliable and easy to install.
We can make many variations to the kit to suit a customers particular requirements but then I have to ask the following questions :
1. What functionality are you trying to accomplish?
2. What performance results are you trying to achieve?
3. How much money do you want to spend?
For every variation, it will take hundreds of engineering hours, testing hours, additional manufacturing costs, etc. Is it worth it?
Zack, I am not trying to blow you off. Others have asked similar questions. But, the way you phrased the question and link it to our S/C kit leads people to believe we took a short cut in the design of the system. Charlie handled it best, if you want to pursue a unique requirement with your car, speak directly to people that handle custom modifications. The majority of our customers bolt on the kit and don't touch it after that. And they don't want to dink around with the car after the S/C has been installed. That is the way they like it. You however are constantly modifiying your cars for some special purpose.
I am not disagreeing with your desire to improve the performance of your car, I do the same thing, just don't drag our product into the discussion. You have had a Vortec, a Kenny Bell and now 2 Trilogy kits. What is the objective? To improve our design? I have made many changes to my Trilogy #1 car, but I would not sell them as part of the kit.
So, it will take some time to get all of the data and opinions documented and then I will post the results.
I am not trying to be an ********* or avoid your question, just work on the delivery of the question and things could appear to be a lot more constructive.
Now, back to researching your question, when I would rather spend time in my garage or with my friends and family.
Jerry
Jerry Barnes
11-26-2006, 07:59 AM
Sarg,
We do not need to cancel the thread. I am not offended and we have just been exchanging view points about a question. The thread is helping us understand one anothers position on researching a question and how questions could be phrased in a constructive manner.
Thanks
Jerry
Smokie
11-26-2006, 08:09 AM
The subject of the IAT temp readings on the Trilogy has already been discussed..people just forget. The Trilogy kit is engineered to precise tolerances and the intercooler components have a predictable range of efficiency and performance. If you do the proper research and development you can extrapolate from the IAT at the MAF the predicted IAT after the intercooler...this is not black magic is called engineering.
Lidio's tuning takes into consideration that an IAT at MAF of X tranlates into an after intercooler temp of Y and his tuning reflects this relationship and leaves a MARGIN of safety, that is the reason why it is so easy for other tuners to take a Trilogy base tune and get more power out of it, the more extra power they get the smaller the SAFETY margin becomes. The tuning is designed to go all over the country and be SAFE.
Jerry if what I wrote is crap and I have it all wrong, tell me and I will gladly delete post, it is not my intention to misrepresent your fine product, Javier.
I have a question: What is the timing advance on the base kit? Is it 10.5 or is it not? I'm ready for another vacation!
It is supplied with 12.5 degrees of timing at the high rpm's
How 'bout we do this? We'll let Jerry pull one of his engineers aside and have him research the technical answer to Zack's question. Zack now owns two Trilogys, my guess is he's already thought of ways to modify one to accept a relocated or additional IAT sensor. We'll see what each comes up with, and go from there?
I'm curious about one thing, Zack...where's the IAT on your twin-screw car?
After the blower
Don't get me wrong - I had the same question. The difference is, I asked Lidio in person during Woodward. It is still a curiosity to know what the under blower intake temps are, but I don't need to know that bad.
Now Jerry and Lidio have the opportunity to answer everyone at the same time.
Seems a lot easier to me?
Jerry Barnes
11-26-2006, 08:14 AM
The subject of the IAT temp readings on the Trilogy has already been discussed..people just forget. The Trilogy kit is engineered to precise tolerances and the intercooler components have a predictable range of efficiency and performance. If you do the proper research and development you can extrapolate from the IAT at the MAF the predicted IAT after the intercooler...this is not black magic is called engineering.
Lidio's tuning takes into consideration that an IAT at MAF of X tranlates into an after intercooler temp of Y and his tuning reflects this relationship and leaves a MARGIN of safety, that is the reason why it is so easy for other tuners to take a Trilogy base tune and get more power out of it, the more extra power they get the smaller the SAFETY margin becomes. The tuning is designed to go all over the country and be SAFE.
Jerry if what I wrote is crap and I have it all wrong, tell me and I will gladly delete post, it is not my intention to misrepresent your fine product, Javier.
Smokie,
You are correct. But, I am assuming Zack would like some specific data which will take some time to get.
Siging off, my wife wants me to take her to breakfast on Sunday mornings. She says I spend too much time working.
Jerry
I'll take a stab at this.
It probably isn't really necessary to relocate the IAT. I am confident this was looked at and studied during the kits inception. For what the kit does at a stock level, even modified like of several cars on the timeslips page, it doesn't really matter.
I have been thinking about relocating mine to read the intake air under the blower. But decided not to disassemble a perfectly good running car to do it.
If the day comes when I remove the blower. I may just do it.
Will you be modifying yours? I'd be interested in the results.
Just thought Id refresh your comment above.
The subject of the IAT temp readings on the Trilogy has already been discussed..people just forget. The Trilogy kit is engineered to precise tolerances and the intercooler components have a predictable range of efficiency and performance. If you do the proper research and development you can extrapolate from the IAT at the MAF the predicted IAT after the intercooler...this is not black magic is called engineering.
Lidio's tuning takes into consideration that an IAT at MAF of X tranlates into an after intercooler temp of Y and his tuning reflects this relationship and leaves a MARGIN of safety, that is the reason why it is so easy for other tuners to take a Trilogy base tune and get more power out of it, the more extra power they get the smaller the SAFETY margin becomes. The tuning is designed to go all over the country and be SAFE.
Jerry if what I wrote is crap and I have it all wrong, tell me and I will gladly delete post, it is not my intention to misrepresent your fine product, Javier.
You are right Javier, but when you engineer a kit from scratch, how hard is it to drill and tap one more hole and provide a wiring harness for an IAT, thus increasing the safety of the kit exponentially should a part in the intercooling system fail?
MitchB
11-26-2006, 08:26 AM
Seems to me that Jerry is saying - in a nut shell, that if one were to use an IAT in the manifold after the compressor and then change the fuel and spark modifiers to take advantage of this, there would be no net gain. Maybe Zack is saying that in the romote possibility where the intercooler pump would fail, having this IAT would prevent a possible engine failure. Also seems that Dennis is trying to say that using a boost sensitive fuel rail along with a recalibrated fueling calibration would be more accurate. Maybe I am wrong. If my summary is correct, then in the very remote case where you did have a pump failure, Zack would be right. To date, is there a documented case where the pump has failed and has this resulted in a mishap?
Mitch
Smokie
11-26-2006, 08:31 AM
You are right Javier, but when you engineer a kit from scratch, how hard is it to drill and tap one more hole and provide a wiring harness for an IAT, thus increasing the safety of the kit exponentially should a part in the intercooling system fail?
I have already looked into incorporating in my kit a flow switch, I believe it is a fairly simple way to make sure you know coolant is flowing. I would call this a safety mod. not a performance mod.
I just been lazy and never got around to it, I don't run all that fast or that often and I have a habit of checking my intercooler flow before starting car and before every pass at the track...one day I will put in that flow switch.
Jerry Barnes
11-26-2006, 08:34 AM
You are right Javier, but when you engineer a kit from scratch, how hard is it to drill and tap one more hole and provide a wiring harness for an IAT, thus increasing the safety of the kit exponentially should a part in the intercooling system fail?
Zack,
Our S/C kit was design to work within an existing environment, so it is not from scratch. It must work with all of the other vehicle systems that currently exists. And it scares me when you say "all you need to do is drill a new hole and wire it up". There are several calibration changes that would have to occur in order to make it safe. Some of those PCM tables we do not have access to.
Let's step back a minute. "SAFE" is what we designed. Please give me your opinion of the Vortec and KB systems you have had experience with and tell us how safe and reliable they were? At the end of the day, which system has performed the best, with the most reliability? No theory, just real world experiences.
If you want to move the IAT, drill the hole and recalibrate the vehicle. Done!
Jerry
DEFYANT
11-26-2006, 08:43 AM
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by DEFYANT http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/bgold/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=444867#post44 4867)
I'll take a stab at this.
It probably isn't really necessary to relocate the IAT. I am confident this was looked at and studied during the kits inception. For what the kit does at a stock level, even modified like of several cars on the timeslips page, it doesn't really matter.
I have been thinking about relocating mine to read the intake air under the blower. But decided not to disassemble a perfectly good running car to do it.
If the day comes when I remove the blower. I may just do it.
Will you be modifying yours? I'd be interested in the results.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Just thought Id refresh your comment above.
Thanks Zack. Check out the line ABOVE the bold type and you'll see why I have not done this to simply satisfy my curiosity. With Jerrys response to your question, I may not do this.
Jeez Zack, just do it already and be done with it. Make your car faster in your own way - reinvent the wheel, go ahead - do it.
tmac1337
11-26-2006, 03:33 PM
It is supplied with 12.5 degrees of timing at the high rpm's
Thanks for an answer. I know that spark advance will depend on a lot of things in the tune...go up and down...but thanks for a partial answer!
And to think a very simple answer to a very simple question was supplied 3 years later....by a non Trilogy guy per se....and for what......all the fighting.....for what........just crazy when you think about it.
After spending cash and now owning 2 kits....you deserve an answer.....not a vacation!
MERCMAN
11-26-2006, 04:59 PM
I may be wrong here(as I am as mechanical minded as Betty Crocker) but I am sure that when Mr. Barnes and Co. developed the Trilogy kit, emission testing was a consideration. Now would the aforementioned modification have any effect on what was coming out of the tailpipe? Again, please no flames, but I think we need to look at the total kit, not on a part by part examination. We all are grateful for the choices in S/C that we have and if someone can "improve" on a kit, more power to them,(literally and figuratively)
I am sure that Zack will let us know one way or the other performance wise if his idea works.
You may now return to the technical descriptions from the mechanics and engineers :)
SergntMac
11-26-2006, 05:37 PM
There you have it gents...What pruning off topic posts from a viable and important thread looks like to us all.
Let this be fair warning to all. Any more "off topic" remarks from anyone will be dealt with by more severe measures.
Those of you who have had their posts deleted to this point, be advised they are soft deletes. I (or any Admin) can bring them back when you show just cause that your comments relate to the problem, or, a solution.
Thank you, carry on.
SergntMac
11-26-2006, 06:33 PM
I can only guess by the posts added after my last warning, that it is best to close this down. No one other than a few seem to want to resolve the problem at hand, but just use this thead (and the MM.net) to flush out old and tired issues. So be it.
Thanks to Jerry Barnes and Zack for trying to resolve the questions at hand, I hope you both continue to work on a solution between yourselves. My apologies to all, there's nothing left to do at this point.
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