My Latest Marauder Engine Diagnosis [Archive]

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Zack

12-03-2006, 02:44 PM

Here are some pics of everything:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02301.JPG

By removing the windshield wiper cowl (which takes 10 minutes) I was able to remove the blower as an assembly, which saved a LOT of time:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02303.JPG
I took the trans out after the engine by pulling it forward and down. I did this to avoid dropping the crossmember, which is a royal PITA.:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02304.JPG
This transmission is tired. I have a shift kit from Performance Automatic on the way, a spiraloc snap ring from Dennis, as well as a good OD band.
The 1-2 shift leaves a lot to be desired, and when you shift from 3-2 at WOT, the engine revs all the way to the limiter before the trans engages.
I think Im gonna send the Stallion Converter in for a checkup while its out.
Here is a pic of the engine:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02307.JPG

And heres where im gonna relocate the IAT sensor to.
Note, there is not going to be enough overhead clearance in the blower mounting plate, so Im going to have to tap the lower manifold and mount it horizontally.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02305.JPG

Other observations:
The bypass valve housing broke when I handled it, stock part off a Cobra, right?
One more thing:
I did notice there was a 98 inch belt running the accessories, and the new kits supply a 100 inch belt, a new idler pulley size maybe?

Anyway, the engine gets broken down in a few days and the diagnosis and corresponding pictures will follow soon after.
Thanks to Mac for all the help in the garage.
It'll be good as new very soon! :pimp:

Glenn

12-03-2006, 03:46 PM

Zack:

I have been on this net for about 3 years and I have always been impressed with your mechanical knowledge and performance. I am just amazed how you can take out and tear down an engine and trans. Good luck on your rebuild work. I think it is just great that you bought Billy G.'s MM and will bring it back to life good as new. Keep us all informed. I am very curious what caused the knocking sound.

Glenn

Loco1234

12-03-2006, 04:05 PM

Zack glad to hear everything is moving along just fine....
best of luck to ya...

MERCMAN

12-03-2006, 04:57 PM

PLEASE tell me that the bucket with the ugly black liquid in it didn't come out of the crankcase of that engine!!:eek:

UAW 588

12-03-2006, 05:34 PM

Good luck Zack. You sure have your work cut out for you. Hope to see this Marauder spring back to life and produce alot carnage in front of the Chicken Basket.:burnout:

Raudermaster

12-03-2006, 08:37 PM

Hey Zack, wanna sell the Kooks headers? How about that Trilogy?;) (But serious about the Kooks lol)

Marauderjack

12-04-2006, 05:20 AM

Hey Zack....

It looks as if the PCV dumps into the blower as the intake of it is coated with "blow-by" crud (brown)??:confused:

Good Luck and I look forward to what you find in regard the "ticking" problem!!:rasta:

Marauderjack:burnout:

ckadiddle

12-04-2006, 08:38 AM

All you guys with the knowledge, skill and PATIENCE to take a car apart and put it back together continually amaze me.

AstroVic

12-04-2006, 08:40 AM

Interesting thread, Zack.

Please keep us updated (with pictures if possible) so we can all learn something!

Zack

12-06-2006, 11:34 AM

Everything comes apart tonight. The camera batteries are charged and ready.

BillyGman

12-06-2006, 12:27 PM

Everything comes apart tonight. The camera batteries are charged and ready.
Any know why BillyG hasn't chimed in yet?Zack, don't take offense over the fact that it took me so long to participate in this thread. You have to understand that while I understand your enthusiasm for this new Marauder project of yours, I must also admit to you that this isn't an easy thread for me to read. And that's because most of what you're doing to this car, is what I wanted to do, but I just didn't have the financial resources to do so.

This wasn't an easy car for me to let go of, and likewise this isn't an easy thread for me to read. It isn't that I have any hard feelings about it towards you. In fact, I'm glad that somebody on this board purchased the car, and I really needed the money anyway. Another reason why I was very hesistant to get involved with this thread is for the reasons that I've already explained to you in a PM. I don't want to be drawn into any debates about why I did or didn't do certain things to this car that you or someone else would've, should've, or could've done, and I cannot help but to think that there's going to be snide remarks coming from certain individuals here ( as one of them has already chimed in) which will be intended to put me on the defense concerning what I did or didn't do to this car.

I'm not accusing you of starting this thread just to put me on the defense for any reason. Thatr would be paranoid. On the contrary, I have to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you've started this thread out of simple and pure enthusiasm and excitement for you new car project. However, I know how some other individuals on here are,( thankfully, it isn't the majority here) and I'm therefore very hesistant to offer my opinions about some of your statements, because I want to avoid any debates concerning this car. The car is yours now, and I'm sure that you will do with it what you see fit to do. And I wish you the best with it.

I believe that it was both fortunate for me that you've purchased it, as well as fortunate for you that you obtained ownership of it for such a good purchase price. In closing, I will simply acknowledge your observation about the lack of anti-sieze in some of the bolt holes. However, I used blue loctite on those particular bolts since I didn't want pulley brackets coming loose. So because of the use of removeable Locktite on certain bolts, I couldn't use anti-seize compound too. Any other comments that I might decide to offer you will be done via PM. Not because I have anything to hide, but because I don't want to be put on the defense by any bonehead comments from wanna-bees.

This car was like a family pet to me, and some callaus comments from some people about this car, I'm likely to take personal. Especially comments that include critique from guys who haven't ever pushed the power levels of their Marauders and have kept them pretty close to being bone stock. I don't care for armchair quarterbacks who are really nothing more than spectators. I'm done with this thread, because I can't help but to anticipate it going south as long as I participate. Good luck with the car Zack, and I sincerely hope that you have as much fun with it as I have had when I owned it. Feel free to send me a PM about it any time that you have any questions at all, and I will be happy to be of help if I can.

martyo

12-06-2006, 07:21 PM

After reading that, I dont have anything to say.

Thank god.

Zack

12-07-2006, 07:09 AM

Its all apart, ill start from the top (of the motor)
Took both valve covers off to find nothing out of the ordinary.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02317.JPG
Then we popped the heads off, expecting to find a broken or cracked ring land, but did not. http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02321.JPG
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02325.JPG
All the crosshatching was still like new on the cylinder walls.
We flipped the engine over and started popping rod caps off. On the #1, we found this:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02331.JPG
And the corresponding bearing:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02337.JPG
Its hard to see in the pics, but only half the bearing was trashed, the side the oil comes in on from the crank, which told us there was something that went bad elsewhere, so we looked to the oil pump and found this:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02326.JPG
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02327.JPG
And the gear.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02330.JPG
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02328.JPG
It is obvious that the problem started in the oil pump. A few thin pieces of aluminum came off, then ended up in the first place it was pumped to, the #1 rod bearing. Thank god it didnt go further into the engine.
The good thing about all this is the crank is 99% useable as is. The bearing failure did not groove the crank in any way. The aluminum 'smeared' itself onto the journal. I carefully sc***** the remaining bearing material off and it looks good. Im gonna follow up with some super fine sandpaper, follwed by crocus cloth for a micropolished finish. After that I will Mic the journal and plastigage the bearing to see if it in fact useable.

A new oil pump, head gaskets and head bolts, along with a good cleaning and this puppy is going back in the car. :beer:

Black Terror

12-07-2006, 10:01 AM

Zack,
The pump looks like an OEM, is this the case?

Zack

12-07-2006, 10:18 AM

Zack,
The pump looks like an OEM, is this the case?

Yes, it is OEM.

Loco1234

12-07-2006, 10:27 AM

juno

12-07-2006, 10:49 AM

Do you feel that this is something that can be avoided by going with the Billet gears for the ford performance pump like I had shown in the pix I listed last week?
Or
Would you need to purchase the MMR oil pump etc... to avoid this from happening...?

Avoid detonation, if that was the source. :)

If the motor is out and you are doing FI, my preference is with the MMR pump.

Zack, why did you think it was detonating that caused this? Do you know the car was detonating? Did you assume it was detotating because of the carbon build up?
Do you have another indication?

RR|Suki

12-07-2006, 11:00 AM

The diablo CHIP that was in my car was calling for 14 a/f... figure that one out :mad:. Sad state of affairs.

Zack

12-07-2006, 11:00 AM

Do you feel that this is something that can be avoided by going with the Billet gears for the ford performance pump like I had shown in the pix I listed last week?
Or
Would you need to purchase the MMR oil pump etc... to avoid this from happening...?

Since I dont know the root cause of the failure, I dont know how to answer this.
This is a quality, but budget minded fix.
A Cobra pump is going back in it. Dont try to sell me yours, I already have one!

RoyLPita

12-07-2006, 11:05 AM

Did this MM have the factory or real oil pressure guage?

Zack

12-07-2006, 11:07 AM

Did this MM have the factory or real oil pressure guage?

Factory 12345

Loco1234

12-07-2006, 11:14 AM

LOL
don't worry I won't try to sell you mine...
I give it to Sr. as a new paper weight for X-mas...
LOL

BillyGman

12-07-2006, 11:26 AM

Defame or "deform" my character? No, I never said anything like that Zack. because no one can defame my character. I am always honest with people, and everyone who has dealt with me on a personal level knows that. Just let me say to everyone here that Zack's conclusion about me having "babied" this car is just plain inaccurate. I hammered that car every single day that I drove it. there wasn't one day that this car wasn't into the boost pressure. And as far as the "detonation" issue, all as I can say is that if it was pinging all over the place as Zack has indicated, it sure wasn't audible to the ear, and I don't think the engine would've lasted for 44,000+ supercharged miles if it was.

As far as the transmission being shot, I haven't any idea what Zack is talking about, because it was fine when I had it, just as it was when I drove Zack back to my house from the airport which was about one hour drive. And I hit half throttle several times with the car during that drive.

I don't know why such claims and statements need to be made about this car in this thread. Why Zack cannot simply share with everyone what he's doing to the car, and leave his conclusions that are based on conjecture out of it is beyond me. But it's because of this, that this thread lacks taste. I didn't want to participate anymore in this thread, but I tried starting my own thread about this, and it was deleted within minutes. ( I wonder why that could be). So apparently this thread is destined to be a source of misinformation. And I treated Zack with the utmost respect when he came to pick up this car, as well as giving him a fantastic deal on it. But apparently that didn't matter to him. :shake: Why he has to include statements like "this car was "babied" is beyond me, but whatever his motives are, I can boldly say to everyone here that this claim is just plain false.

Not only did I beat the snot out of this car for the entire time I had it, but I got into 67 street races with it. Just look at my burnout video and ask yourself.."Is this a guy who babies his car?" And then you'll know who's speaking the truth here. In fact, I can also truthfully tell you that even on the test drive with this same car when it had only 21 miles on it, I took it up over 100 MPH with the salesman in the passenger seat holding on for dear life. And I don't regret any of it. I bought this car and then built it faster to be driven hard, and it always has been.

BillyGman

12-07-2006, 11:32 AM

When I purchased the car, the owner told me it was on a dyno when the kit and Kooks were installed. The A/F was 13.0 across the board.
He said the dyno operator thought this was unsafe and wanted to fatten it up.
The owner called the tuner who created the file and was told that 13.0 is completely safe for a Supercharged car with a stock engine.

I think 13.0 could cause detonation, but I dont know cause I didnt beat on the car on the way home.Everything Zack has stated here^ in this particualr post that I'e quoted above^ is true. However he has forgotten one small detail ( which I assume is an honest mistake on his part) and that is that the engine tuner ( Lidio) told me that it's because of the conservative ignition timing he uses, as well as the fact that this kit includes an intercooler, that a 13.0:1 air/fuel ratio is not a problem, and if the kit wasn't intercooled, then a 13.0:1 A/F ratio would be disasterous with a supercharged engine. I don't believe the theory that this engine was detonating at all. it wouldn't have taken the pounding that I put on it as long as it did. And those fragile pistons tha Marauder engine have would've disintigrated long before the bottom end of the engine was effected like it has been. So again, these conclusions about detonation are inaccurate. And again, I really didn't want to debate about all of this after selling the car to Zack, but this is what this tasteless thread has brought out. It's tasteless, tactless, and w/out class. And it's because of these inaccurate conclusions that Zack is bent on including in his posts. This does nothing positive for this board.

MERCMAN

12-07-2006, 11:37 AM

Both of you need to take it off the board and KEEP it off the board.

BillyGman

12-07-2006, 11:44 AM

Both of you need to take it off the board and KEEP it off the board.I wanted to keep it off the board, and I sent Zack several polite PM's over a week ago requesting that, but he chose to take it out in the public. Today I sent him a more aggressive PM about this, and he ended our one on one communication requesting that I not write to him anymore.

And to answer Zack's question, you are just plain wrong to say that this engine was "babied" and that it was detonating all over the place. This is just false. What don't you understand about the word "false"? You're spreading misinformation about this car Zack. i don't care about the pictures. post all you want. it's the false conclusions that you're drawing. Zack, why don't you just include the pictures, and let people draw their own conclusions, and then focus on showing us what YOU are going to do with this car? That would be more interesting as well as more constructive. Don't you think. I regret that this has come to this Zack, because I really wanted you and I to remain on good terms. I don't see why we cannot be other than these false conclusions that you've been drawing about what I did with MY car when it was MINE. Please try to understand what I'm saying. That's all I ask zack. Again, I don't want for us to be enemies

BillyGman

12-07-2006, 12:12 PM

I think you're taking me all wrong Zack. I sincerely wish that we can just find a way yo bury the hatchet. I don't like holding on to grudges. I really do want to be on good terms with as many people from this board as I can be, since many people here have helped me out with their advice in the past including you Zack. And I'm thankfull to you for that as well as to others. please reconsider your stance on this Zack. I'm actually more concerned about how you and I get along in the future than I am about this thread getting closed down. Perhaps it's difficult for you to believe that, but it's true. I don't know what else I can say to convey my thoughts to you on this. And thankyou for being kind enough to change the thread title. Peace.

BillyGman

12-07-2006, 12:55 PM

In all fairness to Zack, I want to share something with the group that I just wrote to Zack in my last PM to him which I just thought of. The only thing that I can think of that might possibly explain the conclusion and diagnosis that this car of mine was "babied" is that for the last one thousand miles that I drove it, I was trying to take it easy because of that engine knock getting louder and louder. I still got into the boost partially, but I think it was only a few times within that entire thousand miles.

The fact is that I still needed this car for transportation right up until the day that I turned it over to Zack, and i was concerned about getting stuck witrh it. So that might possibly be the only explanation for that diagnosis. I don't know, but that's the only thing that I can think of. The only thing that I know for certain is that I drove this car about as hard as any car can be driven and still last 55,000+ miles (44,000 supercharged, and 11,000 naturally aspirated). So take this FWIW people. I'm speaking absolute truths here, but this is in no way an effort on my part to start up any furtther debates about this issue. ;)

Agent M79

12-07-2006, 01:15 PM

Zack, you’ve always been an individual with an acerbic nature. It strikes me that when you are riled that this nature is amplified. Unfortunately, I think that your wit, when you chose to show it, is mistaken for malice as it comes across in that same acerbic way that your criticisms do via the Internet.

BillyG, you are a forward and succinct individual. You have an intensity that has shown here in your passion to protect your honor and character from needless speculation and accusation. I hear elements of dismay that the relationship you have established with Zack may be experiencing discord here.

BillyG, I do not believe that your reputation is impugned in matters relating to the way that you built or treated your car. Even for the most speculative person, ample evidence is available to support your renditions. You can rest assured that only those beyond the periphery of importance would accept anything less than how you have represented yourself and your MM. Your reputation is most intact and no harm has been cast on it from this thread.

Zack, I am thinking that you understand Billy’s point of view on this matter even if you consider the value of his perspective to be non-sequitur. You are in the unique position to have a car that is a part of the Marauder ‘cognoscentia’ and maintaining some tact in light of the previous owners requests is not outside the bounds of honor and good taste. I can’t even image that doing so is outside of your own nature as all of us have deferred to someone at sometime in ways and matters that would have mattered little to us personally.

You obviously have the skills and acumen to repair and improve the car. I imagine that, not only I, but most people would like to see this car go back together and get back on the road and are intensely interested in how that happens.

Speaking for me, I do not want to see you stop posting about it.

If left to me, I’d delete this entire thread and start it over with the above considerations in mind.

Zack

12-07-2006, 01:28 PM

If left to me, I’d delete this entire thread and start it over with the above considerations in mind.

Read it all again :D

RCSignals

12-08-2006, 01:41 AM

Could it be that much of this is just misunderstanding between Billy and Zack?

We all know that this car was special to Billy, that it was in a sense 'Family'
We all know that Billy proudly beat the snot out of this car and it just smiled and came back for more and more.

If Billy 'babied' this car it was only in the sense of his close connection with the car and attachment to it. Maybe that's what Zack meant?

I think Billy and Zack are both passionate about their cars, and are both more alike than they even know.

Mike Poore

12-08-2006, 04:41 AM

I bet that carbon got there when Zack drove it back home, and had to fill up with that crap gas in, PA, um, no-no make that Ohio, yep, that's it, let's blame it on Ohio. In any case, Billy rightfully got his say, and the boys can move on, with any disagreement behind everyone.

There's lessons to learn here, about this engine, and it's rebuild, and we'll learn a lot, if from nothing else, seeing the photos and rejoicing in Billy's wild-assed car being able to make huge billows of smoke, once again. The original intent of this thread is to learn the source of the engine knock and see if relocating the sensor is a valid engineering change to the Trilogy design. Half of the project has been completed, with valuable info learned. Let's keep it on track and see this project to fruition. Billy and Zack are OK, so please, the rest of us, let's ride along and, perhaps, we'll learn a few things, on several fronts.

Billy's still the burnout champ, in my book. Thanks for that vid, Billy; it's/you're the best.:)

Badger

12-08-2006, 10:59 AM

Thanks Zack. Picture worth a 1,000 words.

BillyGman

12-08-2006, 11:50 AM

Some very good posts from several people here. Thanks to all, and as far as I'm concerned, Zack and I have had a misunderstanding here, and I've sent him a PM yesterday apologizing to him for my choice of words in some of the things I said in atleast one of the previous PM's that I had written to him. And Zack wrote back to me and has indicated that he accepted my apology, and that things are fine between us. I'm thankful to Zack that he chose not to hold a grudge, because I've alwys been on good terms with people who I've sold my hotrod cars to, and I want to continue that trend. :) I want to give due credit to Zack by mentioning that from what I have seen coming from him on this board over the past few years, it looks to me that he's a very good mechanic, and no matter what his writing style has been, I can't take that away from him ( a very good mechanic he is ).

merc406

12-08-2006, 12:45 PM

It's Zack's project now so let it pass,( thanks Zack for the info, it will help others out), Billy, we want to here more about the SS......:burnout:

BillyGman

12-08-2006, 01:31 PM

Billy, we want to here more about the SS......:burnout:Thankyou for your interest. I'll be sure to include updates from time to time. You can look for them in the "Lounge" forum since that's where I usually place them in since they have to do with a car that isn't a Marauder. (I kind of tend to reserve the "Garage" forum for Marauder related things).

Mach1

12-08-2006, 04:55 PM

Its good to see that the engine damage was limited. If it was my car, I think I would install a new forged crank, rods and pistons. That would give it a bulletproof bottom end for future abuse. Especially since the engine is allready out and needs new gaskets anyway.

Zack

12-08-2006, 08:15 PM

Zack

12-10-2006, 02:08 PM

A little update...
I obtained some 400, 600 and polishing crocus cloth to save the crankshaft.
All went well, resulting in a micro-polished surface with no indication anything went wrong.
I really lucked out here.
I also Mic'd the journal and it was in spec. I followed it up with the plastigauge test and both journals measured between .0015 and .002. Well within spec.
I had bearings from my original engine in mint condition that I replaced the bad bearing with.
the head gaskets, head bolts and Cobra oil pump come in tomorrow and assembly is Tuesday.
im dropping the trans off tomorrow and expect it done in a few days.
The total cost of the engine repair will be about $200.
Trans a little bit more. Should be running no later than Christmas.

BillyGman

12-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Zack

12-10-2006, 05:08 PM

Hey, that's good news Zack! More power to ya brutha......it sounds like your work is going to pay off well for you. Do you think that it's a risky practice using a bearing that wasn't brand new out of the box? I'm not intending to be sarcastic about that. It's a sincere question on my part.

Some might say Im a butcher, some might say its fine.
If its round and in good shape, why not?
The 7500 mile bearing i used looks just like the rest of the 55000 mile bearings in the engine.
Im confident it will be just fine.

BillyGman

12-10-2006, 05:59 PM

Zack

12-10-2006, 08:04 PM

thePunisher

12-11-2006, 04:56 AM

BillyGman

12-11-2006, 06:11 AM

FordNut

12-11-2006, 07:50 AM

Zack

12-11-2006, 08:23 AM

Okay, so for my own education, let me get this right......this was caused by a type of failure of the oil pump gear and related assembly...right? I'd just like to learn something from this if at all possible. That's why I ask.

It definitely started in the oil pump, because there is aluminum sheared off the housing.
Whether it was a pump failure or a piece of debris that got IN the pump, I dont know.
It definitely was not a bearing that just went bad, becaude it only affected half the bearing.

thePunisher

12-11-2006, 10:43 AM

zack lemme guess...the top half....?????

Zack

12-11-2006, 11:41 AM

zack lemme guess...the top half....?????

Here are the pics.
The side that got damaged is the side the oil passage in the journal faces.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02337.JPG

thePunisher

12-11-2006, 11:51 AM

Zack

12-11-2006, 12:28 PM

i dont understand....that depends on crank position...was it the cap side bearing or rod side??? usually its the rod side...this is the bearing that takes the most abuse from the force of the piston/rod being forced downward. then once the clearances get too large the bearing spins.......

The bearing never spun because half the bearing was in excellent shape.
Im not referring to the 'halves', im referring to 1/2 the entire circumfrence.
Heres the pic im referring to showing the oil passage comes in on the side the bearing failed, leading me to believe something was pumped in.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/4/0/4/DSC02331.JPG

RCSignals

12-11-2006, 02:29 PM

i dont think the oil pump failed....its common for a 4.6, 5.4, 6.8 to chew a rod bearing on occasion....regardless of maintenance etc. billy when you originally posted about the noise i knew it was a rod bearing . see it at the dealer from time to time...ford probably could have used a better bearing material....

Except, based on what has been said about the condition of the oil pump, it would seem Zack could be correct in his analysis.
He doesn't say the pump actually 'failed', but there seems to have been an oil pump fault. This would also be possible regardless of maintenance.

I've never heard that it is 'common' for a mod engine to chew rod bearings, at least any more so than its possible for any other engine.

thePunisher

12-11-2006, 02:50 PM

im just telling you what ive seen countless times at the dealer...we never had any older windsors comin in the door with chewed rod bearings, or any 3.0 v6s or 2.0l 4 cyls....seems to be a regular occurance in the mods though.....the ratio of motors produced to those failed im sure is low....also if you go to the mach 1 forums it seems to be a common occurance over there...

Zack

12-11-2006, 02:52 PM

Zack

12-12-2006, 08:15 AM

Well, im stumped now.
I worked on the engine this morning. My intent was to torque the rod caps after i coated everything with assembly lube.
A total of 3 caps were removed so far. i stopped removing caps when I found the problem!
Went to torque the bolts per mfg spec: Torque to 18ft-lbs, them to 59 ft-lbs and you are done.
Couldnt get them to torque to the 59. Got them to 55, then they kept spinning and spinning and spinning and spinning.
These are not torque to yield bolts, so i dont understand.
A few of the bolts have streched as much as .060 so far! and its obvious when you look at them.
Good thing is the rods arent damaged, just the bolts.
Ill snap some pics later. Im really confused as to why this happened.
For the record, I checked my torque wrench to a known good one and its fine.

magindat

12-12-2006, 08:22 AM

Are they bottomed due to the stretch?

BillyGman

12-12-2006, 09:09 AM

Wow Zack!! That's a confusing issue. The rod cap bolts should definitely take 59 ft/LBS. since they must be 3/8" bolts. And without even looking in the Ford manual, I have to say that the torque spec of 59 ft/LBS sounds about right to me since the torque spec on the 7/16" rod cap bolts on my 632 inch motor is 79 ft/LBS. So I wonder what's going on with that. :confused:

Zack

12-12-2006, 11:23 AM

Im going to make sure about torquing them wet or dry, although i cant see that making them stretch.
These bolts must be junk for this to happen.

Zack

12-12-2006, 11:25 AM

Are they bottomed due to the stretch?

No because the hole goes through the rod entirely.

thePunisher

12-12-2006, 01:07 PM

zack they are torque to yield bolts. 18ftlbs, 33ftlbs, 90* deg , that explains that. id double check your specs.....and get new bolts! all of fords "crack rods" use torque to yield bolts.

Zack

12-12-2006, 02:51 PM

zack they are torque to yield bolts. 18ftlbs, 33ftlbs, 90* deg , that explains that. id double check your specs.....and get new bolts! all of fords "crack rods" use torque to yield bolts.

You are right.
I looked in a Mach 1 manual knowing it was the same engine, but really it was giving me the spec for the Cobra Manley Rods.
What a bummer.

thePunisher

12-12-2006, 02:55 PM

dont know why that would be??? mach 1s didnt use those rods...

Dennis Reinhart

12-12-2006, 03:15 PM

NOTE: The rod bearing cap bolts are torque-to-yield. Install new bolts each time they are serviced. Install the connecting rod bearing (http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OD~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34872025) caps and bolts and tighten in three stages.

Stage 1: Tighten to 25 Nm (18 ft. lbs.) .
Stage 2: Tighten to 45 Nm (33 ft. lbs.) .
Stage 3: Tighten an additional 90 degrees .

Check the connecting rod bearing (http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OD~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34872025) clearance.<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT>

Install the windage tray.<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P3R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792034</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=320 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><FORM action="javascript:Zoom('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792034', 1, 480, 287, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84792034, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value=Zoom></FORM></TD><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TD><FORM action="javascript:SizedForPrint('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0X~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792034', 1, 480, 287, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84792034, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value="Sized for Print"></FORM></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Install and tighten the oil pump screen spacer.<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P3R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792035</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=320 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><FORM action="javascript:Zoom('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792035', 1, 480, 272, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84792035, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value=Zoom></FORM></TD><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TD><FORM action="javascript:SizedForPrint('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0X~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792035', 1, 480, 272, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84792035, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value="Sized for Print"></FORM></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Position the oil pump (http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OD~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34872057), and tighten the bolts in the sequence shown.<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P3R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84790021</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=320 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><FORM action="javascript:Zoom('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84790021', 1, 480, 288, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84790021, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value=Zoom></FORM></TD><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TD><FORM action="javascript:SizedForPrint('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0X~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84790021', 1, 480, 288, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84790021, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value="Sized for Print"></FORM></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

NOTE: Install a new O-ring if necessary. Install the oil pump screen cover and tube.<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P3R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792850</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=320 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><FORM action="javascript:Zoom('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792850', 1, 480, 292, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84792850, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value=Zoom></FORM></TD><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TD><FORM action="javascript:SizedForPrint('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0X~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/84792850', 1, 480, 292, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION84792850, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value="Sized for Print"></FORM></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Install the cylinder head gaskets (http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OD~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34872038).<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.motoralldata.com/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P3R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/91031235</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=320 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><FORM action="javascript:Zoom('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0H~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/91031235', 1, 480, 300, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION91031235, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value=Zoom></FORM></TD><SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><TD><FORM action="javascript:SizedForPrint('/alldata/MOTOR~V47086708~C37591~R0~OB0~ P2R0X~N/0/89012112/94698271/94698276/94698278/34853741/100411974/34853743/34849396/107772635/107773499/107773826/104161264/91031235', 1, 480, 300, 'ZoomWin', CAPTION91031235, 'NONE', HIGHNONE);" method=post><INPUT type=submit value="Sized for Print"></FORM></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

NOTE: The LH is shown; the RH is similar. Lubricate the bolt heads and threads. Use clean engine oil. Install the LH and RH cylinder heads and tighten the bolts in six stages in the sequence shown.

Stage 1: Tighten to 40 Nm (30 ft. lbs.) .
Stage 2: Tighten an additional 90 degrees .
Stage 3: Loosen the bolts a minimum of one full turn .
Stage 4: Tighten to 40 Nm (30 ft. lbs.) .
Stage 5: Tighten an additional 90 degrees .
Stage 6: Tighten an additional 90 degrees .
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>  </SCRIPT><LINK href="/css/onlineApp2.css" type=text/css rel=stylesheet>

Mike Poore

12-12-2006, 05:42 PM

What an amazing thread this is turning out to be. Congratulations, guys, we all get to go to school on this one. From it's somewhat bumpy start to this first rate thread! Thanks to all contributers. :)

Zack

12-12-2006, 08:46 PM

I ordered new bolts today.
I will replace all of them and check ALL the bearings while im at it.
$35 for the bolts.

DEFYANT

12-12-2006, 09:42 PM

RCSignals

12-12-2006, 10:01 PM

About that oil pump and berring issue...

When I did my valve cover swap, I noticed alot of "slag" or extra material left over from the casting process on the inside of the timing chain cover. If these bits of aluminum come off and get into the pump, I bet they could do the damage you posted.

See this pic:

Does your timing chain cover or other parts have this on the inside?

'Slag' wouldn't be the right word, unless it was 'loose'. Maybe you meant 'flash'? Flash should have been removed as part of the finishing process though.
Some mould lines wouldn't be uncommon, and unless the timing chain or gears could touch them, no problem.

DEFYANT

12-12-2006, 10:11 PM

'Slag' wouldn't be the right word, unless it was 'loose'. Maybe you meant 'flash'? Flash should have been removed as part of the finishing process though.
Some mould lines wouldn't be uncommon, and unless the timing chain or gears could touch them, no problem.

I wasn't sure if "slag" was the right word or not. Thanks.

Billy,

What oil and filter did you use? How often was it changed?

Thanks

Zack

12-13-2006, 06:36 AM

About that oil pump and berring issue...

When I did my valve cover swap, I noticed alot of "slag" or extra material left over from the casting process on the inside of the timing chain cover. If these bits of aluminum come off and get into the pump, I bet they could do the damage you posted.

Does your timing chain cover or other parts have this on the inside?

Every timing cover ive ever seen has had this.
It is highly unlikely any of this, had it fallen off, would have gotten past the oil pump pickup screen.

prchrman

12-13-2006, 06:46 AM

I wasn't sure if "slag" was the right word or not. Thanks.

Billy,

What oil and filter did you use? How often was it changed?

Thanks

You still got the debris...if you could send it to me or take some good pics I could tell you exactly what it is...I am an engineer in a aluminum foundry...and also I am interested in what casting process they use for the cover...probably die cast but could be sand cast...Ford used to use lost foam like we do but went away from it in the late 80s early 90s...GM, Mercedes, BMW, and others still uses lost foam for intakes, blocks, heads and such...thanks, willie

BillyGman

12-13-2006, 10:29 AM

Billy,

What oil and filter did you use? How often was it changed?

ThanksI really wanted us to avoid this thread being about me. The car is Zack's now, and I think that it would be better for this thread as well as for the board in general if we keep the focus on what ZACK is doing with HIS car. However, because I'm sure that you mean well, and to avoid giving people the impression that I have something to hide, I'll furnish an answer for you. But I'd rather that questions directed at me be sent via PM.

I always used Motorcraft 5W20 just like the Marauder owners manual recommends, along with the motorcraft filters, and the changes were always made once every 4,000-5,000 miles ( which worked out to be three times per year).However, I really don't believe that is a factor with this incident.

Zack

12-13-2006, 10:36 AM

:awe: :popcorn:

RCSignals

12-13-2006, 03:49 PM

.......... I really don't believe that is a factor with this incident.

I don't see how the oil is a factor either.

I'd have done exactly as you did Billy

Bigdogjim

12-13-2006, 04:05 PM

At the request of BillyGman I am closing this thread any more question can be asked either by e-mail, pm's or phone.
Thank you all for imput.