Wanted to address this.

[O's Fan Rich]

I've benn thinking about this most of the day after reading it this morning.
Now, it's not just this post, I am in n o way picking on txmarauder, but it's the latest in the line of reasoning of the black/bold statement

If i did not already have one i would in a heart beat, the Trilogy IS just too expensive. If you really want to corner the market sell it as a kit with the smaller than the stock trilogy pulley for more hp and to save our hood liners . I still dont understand why Trilogy would sell a kit putting out less hp than other kits then charge you more for the smaller pulley and a retune when they should have just included it in the first place. The pulley is smaller so less material should be less money and they have to burn a tune for the kit anyways so just burn it for the smaller pulley. I love the blower i just dont like the price per hp ratio when a smaller puley and different tune would be sooo much better in the standard kit.

Ok, the Trilogy kit is the more expensiove one. But, what goes into the price? Is it just the hardware? No, if youi simply take the cost of the parts, obviously the price is alot lower.
There is more to building a product for market then just throwing the parts in then marking it up and selling it.
It takes time to engineer it. That takes people too. While your developing it, people need to eat ad pay bills, that means there is an out put of cash for that. It also take facilities, outsourcing, parts good and bad... it's R&D. In any new product there is always R&D costs. There are startup costs, there is over head ( lights, heat, air conditioning, building/facility, telephone, transporation, insurances, payroll, FICA, workers comp costs, etc, etc, etc) legal costs,that go into it, and god knows what else comes up, BEFORE you even have ONE kit sold. On top of that the owner/developer wants to see a profit for his well earned vision and hardwork, ( after all if they did'nt do it who would? one of us? maybe, but we did not.)
You have to factopr warranty costs, and the cost of just doing business, advertising, demos, shows, packaging, the works.
So, that's why things can cost more then we outsiders feel they should.
Then, someone can come along and use the product that was developed and has gone through the refinements, the development stages and is a ready to go proven design and copy it. That person or company who does not have all the time, effort and resources invested into the product can offer it at a lowe cost. He has NOTHING to make up for as hid investiment is minimal, therefoer has a smaller "nut to crack" to show a profit.

That's what the Japenese di for many years, remember? Now they are more progressive, of course. But they took already enginnered products and made them cheaper.
Generic Drugs anyone? Why are they "cheaper"? NO R&D costs, no approval costs, no FDA super scrutiny.
Get it? REAL BUSINESS COSTS MONEY!!
I was raised to not ask, "Why is your product so exoensive?" but to ask "Why is your's so cheap?" You get better answers, in my opinion.


__________________
2003 300A Trilogy #80

[AstroVic]

I was raised to not ask, "Why is your product so exoensive?" but to ask "Why is your's so cheap?" You get better answers, in my opinion.


I agree with your entire post, Rich, but I particularly agree with this statement.

[DEFYANT]

I thought my Trilogy kit was cheep.. :dunno:

And the new ones are even cheeper. When does the sale end?

[Zack]

Send your resume Rich, i think you have a chance with Trilogy.

Rich, my friend who mods his mustang heavily laughed his AZZ off when i told him how much i paid.

He told me i was nuts for paying that much for an eaton!
For reference, I paid $4200 for my Kenne Bell 2.2.
I got everything but a chip, heat exchanger and intercooler reservoir.

[Glenn]

There is no way anyone can logically justify the expensive of ANY SC. It is not an economic or logical decision, it is an emotional decision. Just ask your wife or girlfriend if they think the cost of a SC is logical or makes sense from the cheapest to the most expensive unit. They will all tell you that you are nuts, except the ones that hope to marry you. Then you will hear it after your married.

I deceided to buy my Trilogy when my friends and business acquaintances started to die in their 50's and I wanted the experience of owning a fast MM. I have been very pleased with its performance regardless of the price. It has performed flawlessly and taken my MM to 12.38 at 406 HP with a bad driver. The car with a decent driver is capable of 12.1s and that is not bad with my modest mods and at 4450#.

The Trilogy gives an owner a complete FORD OEM looking install and that's is why I really like it. It looks like it came from the factory with a SC that it should have had from the beginning. Another reason is the Trilogy's completely stock driving manners until you get on it including the blower whine. When I had my stock MM air box on it was nearly dead quite and only apparent at full boost. The other blowers are just too loud for me. One other small issue is that you can get yourself over your HP head quickly with the other SCs. I am convinced that 450 HP is about the limit for our stock engine internals.

Regarding the stock pulley, if you want another 20+ HP just order the 3.2 from Lidio. You do not need a tune with just the 3.2 pulley with 93 octane and yes it does make a big difference. It would have been nice to get the 3.2 in the kit, but no big deal it was only less then 2% of the kit cost to buy the pulley.

OK, enough from me. Time for another BR.

Glenn

[sailsmen]

I agree w/ what Rich is saying all businesses have overhead costs. Overhead cost can vary dramatically from business to business.

( I don't buy Nike Shoes, figure Michael Jordan does not need my money and I don't buy Polo by Ralp Lauren, looking at his cars at Pebble Beach I know he does not need my money)

The R&D work that Ford has done on other models such as the Cobra reduced the S/C R&D cost on a Marauder.

This is particularly evident with electronics, want the latest and greatest, you pay dearly for it. You can usually get better a lot less 6 months to a year latter.

You do loose the pleasure and time that some cannot but a value on.

What truley matters in the end is what it is worth to you the buyer.

[O's Fan Rich]

There is no way anyone can logically justify the expensive of ANY SC. It is not an economic or logical decision, it is an emotional decision.

Glenn

Wow.... that makes way too much sense!!!

I am NOT looking down my nose at anyone's choice or on anyone elses product with my post. Like I said I just felt the expense factor needed to be adressed.
Remember this is coming from a guy who was going to go with another s/c kit, until he got a discount coupon for the one he bought! Price was a factor for me then.

And, I'm gonna go smaller, too... 3.0 is looking about right, God willing, I'll be in Detroit in August to get it all done and tuned.

[RCSignals]

We all have choices to make. Unfortunately people these days shop by price, not necessarily by product. (Just look how successful Walmart is)
Those who shop by price alone often end up regretting their decision later, or having to spend more money later on.
That's not to say too identical/comparable products will always be priced the same. But cheaper is not always the better.

[Jerry Barnes]

Guys,

I know we have had this conversation before, but let's have it again.

1. I do not strong arm anyone into buying our kit. If you don't want it, don't buy it! Period!

2. The one gentleman was correct, it costs ME a ton of money to develop this kit. Advertising, engineers making $80K a year, CAD Hardware, CAD Software, Telecommincations lines, R&D cost, Customer Support, benefits for employees, on and on and on. When I had this discussion about price 4 years ago with Ford Racing Management they said the price is too high. Then they added up all the peices and said, this isn't a bad deal considering everything that is in the kit. Then they said, after they drove the car, "This is the best Supercharger Implementation we have ever driven".

3. Do I think the kit is expensive, "Yes". But, as a business man, when I add up all the cost to design, engineer, manufacture and ship these kits, the price is fair. If you don't think it is fair, go buy a ProCharger or a Vortech or leave the car NA. I don't care! Did I have people kicking my ass when they found out we were making this kit to get it RIGHT NOW, abso-freaking-lutely!

4. Do I think our engineers and Lidio did a good job? No, I think they did a Great Job! Talk to a customer that has driven the car for 50,000 miles trouble free or drives the car to work everyday in the snow or gets that same gas milage when not in boost. Or wins a burnout video contest by beating the **** out of the car and drives it to work everyday!

5. Open the boxes and tell me if you see quality? Install the kit and tell me if it is designed well? Or look at the Installation Manual and tell me if it is well thought out? All of those things cost money, big money.

6. Tell me if you have ever called our office and said you have a problem. What was the response? We will send a new one right away, no questions.

7. Fact : We have sold more Marauder Supercharger Kits then ALL of our competitors 3 times over. ALL OF OUR COMPETITORS COMBINED. Over 150 kits. These people must see something they want, wouldn't you say? Please don't take this as me thinking I am better then anyone else, just that WE(Trilogy) have worked very hard and seem to be doing well at this time. The facts speak for themselves, but it is always good to be appreciative and humble.

8. Fact : I have never heard of one of our customers taking their Trilogy Supercharger Kit off their car and installing another SC kit. I have heard of a people taking other products off their cars and replacing it with one of ours. That sends a very strong message.

9. Fact : I have made some of the closest friends I have through this project. They are my closest friends! Some of them don't even have a Trilogy Supercharger on their cars, but they are still my closest friends. I have tried very hard to be loyal to them and they have shown on numerous occassions that they are loyal to me. These are the things a good life is made of.

10. I did this because I was passionate about the project, it was fun! I wanted to take our engineering talent and stretch it to the limits. And it worked! I wanted to diversify our business and it has partially succeeded.

11. We were not the first SC kit for the Marauder, I think we were the third. But, that did not bother me because we did it for ourselves. We did not go out of our way to steal sales from the other guys, we did it because it was different and we thought it was a good idea. As a matter of fact, we could have sold 10 kits and dropped the project all together. Lesson Learned.

12. It is great that others feel there is a market for a less expensive Roots style kit. I strongly suggest that they put their heart and soul into the project and make it a success. That is what America is all about.

13. We have freely sent our Installation Manual to people we don't even know. It includes all of the parts, with pictures, with part numbers in it. If anyone wanted to copy our design or parts used, this is where I would start. To quote Arnie Dunai from EATON, "What the hell did you do! You patented that design so no others can use it!". Welcome to the world of well thought out business practices. But, there is a lot more to a complex supercharger kit then the parts. And we always welcome the competition, ALWAYS!

Like I have said many times before, I have been in the automotive business for 37 years and love it. It has been good to me. I plan on staying in it for a while longer and I will always work hard to be the best I can be at this business.

And for the few that like to sling crap my way, well nothing has changed. I will have a good 2007 and they will always feel short changed with their little inadequate lives. What else is new.

I would like to wish all of my friends, customers and new competitors a very good 2007!

Sincerely,

Jerry Barnes

[G-Man]

I have to say that my ROI (return on investment) has been very good. Quality, power, consistency and duarbility of the Trilogy unit has been OEM grade to say the least. Excessive idling, 140+mph flat out runs, the kit operates as OEM and I have come to rely on it for that.

My biggest complaint is that a 40 mph stomp to the floor makes the tail of the car slide sideways. (I hate it when that happens :D )

[Jerry Barnes]

I forgot to address the pulley size question in the last post. The EATON supercharger comes with the pulley in it's current size. According to EATON, if you modify the size of the pulley, you void the warranty on the supercharger unit. We have never had a problem with smaller pulley sizes and would honor the warranty on our own if there was a failure. And Ford was inconsistent in the material they used on the hood pad. Our CAD models showed plenty of clearance if they used the hood pad intented for the Marauder. This would have been the thinner pad, that was more rigid material and held it's shape, even after slamming the hood repeatedly. But, Ford used a combination of other hood pads off of other models at the plant.

And let's not forget, when we first offered the kit, people were more concerned about the engine internals, transmission, rear axle and drive shaft holding up to the new power levels. Now, four years later, some people have forgotten that point and are wanting more then 150 HP out of the box. How times change.

If you want a smaller pulley, you need to have the car re-calibrated to do it properly. That is when I recommend going to a professional, like Lidio, to address the smaller pulley and ANY OTHER MODIFICATIONS that have been made. Because the number of different configurations are mind boggling and that is not our business.

Let me give you a real world example. We recently had a Performance Shop order a kit for a customer in Canada. They installed the SC and the customer picked the car up and immediately started to drive it to Florida! No test period. No dry runs. No validation of installation completeness. Nothing!

The customer calls the Performance Shop and complains the car is only getting 11 MPG and has lots of black smoke. The Performance Shop calls me and says he has an unhappy customer and worries the car will explode on its way to Florida. They say, Whats wrong with your kit?????

Now I have not seen the installation, I have not seen the completed vehicle and it is hundreds of miles away from our office. So we start going through the list of things that could have gone wrong.

I call my close friend Claude in Florida and told him the car is headed his way, if it makes it, could he take a look at it. Claude, as ususal, says get me the guys cell phone number and I will call right away. The car makes it to Ft. Meyers and Claude evaluates the car. What does he find? The car had been tuned by another Performance Shop before it was taken to the Performance Shop that did the SC install. The first Shops Tuning Chip was left in the car after the car was reflashed with the Trilogy SC tune. Therefore, it overrode the Trilogy SC tune. Claude said "It's a miracle the car did not blow the engine".

So, my advice is, don't do five modifications all at one time. If you have a problem, which mod caused the problem. Do it in phases, be patient! Dyno it after each modification to understand the improvement achieved from the recent modification. Understand the cost paid for the performance level achieved. Learn what each mod has done to your vehicle. It will make it easier to diagnose any problems that occur.

If you want a smaller pulley, try it after you have driven it with the stock pulley and understand the driveability, performance level, reliability.

I could spend all of my time telling everyone the lessons we have learn from this project, but I would not get anything else done.

And there are two major types of customers :
1. I want to drive my car, I want reliability, I want good economy.
2. I want to be in the 10's, I will spend all my free time under my car, I want to continually modify my car, I don't care if the car breaks, I will fix it.

So, who do you design your SC kit for, number 1 or number 2?

The stock pulley size is fine to start.

Jerry

[dwasson]

Jerry, even if we assume that everything you've done is wrong, it is presumptuous to tell another person how to run his business. What you have here is the same as the guy who comes into McDonalds without enough money for a burger and trying to bargain for a discount if he doesn't have a pickle.

I'd love to have a Trilogy kit. But it does cost a lot of money, and I can't afford it. I will either get to where I can afford it or I will live without it. I would be embarrassed trying to beat you up on the price. Part of being a success at something is having people who aren't as successful as you are criticizing your practices.

Do what you think is right, trying to make everyone happy is a sure way to fail.

[sailsmen]

Post #11 is excellent, thanks Jerry.:bows:

[Master]

I love Dan's comment about pricing. Its true! Running the dyno at events we often get someone comming up asking us to discount the price. If they persist after I make the MacDonald's comment, I just turn my back and tell them to come back when they are serious about their car (honestly, I've given some folks a break, but they have to have made an honest effort to scrape together the cash they have).
As for the Zack comment, I agree that the Kenne Bell kits tend to be pretty good running systems out of the box, but consider this: Add up the cost of the additional parts you said didn't come with the KB kit. You are already starting to close the gap on the Trilogy price. Additionally, I've no idea if the KB is adapted to the MM. Is it a "plug-and-play"? Unless I were saving a heck of a lot more money, I'd expect it to be. Additionally, I don't think it is ever fair to compare the cost for an aftermarket mustang part to an MM part. The cost of developing Mustang parts can be spread over ten times the customers, probably in just one year. All of our Marauders together would equal about one month's production of Mustangs, I would think. Its just an economy of scale. Look at Mustang body kits! You can have your pick of kits for very little money, and there are dozens to choose from. We can't even get one kit (ie the Trilogy) made for a decent price because we just aren't a big enough market. Face it, for our very limited application, we're going to pay more for our aftermarket parts. I've accepted this. Hopefully everyone else has by now. Its the price of exclusivity, and I'm willing to accept.

PS
Also, look at the Z&M rear CAs. I love 'em, but they cost more than what I've seen the same thing for Mustangs offered for in the back of Mustang magazines. Again, I'm cool with why it costs more, and happy to be a customer. My own common sense kicks in when I think I'm getting gouged, and thus far, the bat-senses aren't tingling :)

[Jerry Barnes]

I love Dan's comment about pricing. Its true! Running the dyno at events we often get someone comming up asking us to discount the price. If they persist after I make the MacDonald's comment, I just turn my back and tell them to come back when they are serious about their car (honestly, I've given some folks a break, but they have to have made an honest effort to scrape together the cash they have).
As for the Zack comment, I agree that the Kenne Bell kits tend to be pretty good running systems out of the box, but consider this: Add up the cost of the additional parts you said didn't come with the KB kit. You are already starting to close the gap on the Trilogy price. Additionally, I've no idea if the KB is adapted to the MM. Is it a "plug-and-play"? Unless I were saving a heck of a lot more money, I'd expect it to be. Additionally, I don't think it is ever fair to compare the cost for an aftermarket mustang part to an MM part. The cost of developing Mustang parts can be spread over ten times the customers, probably in just one year. All of our Marauders together would equal about one month's production of Mustangs, I would think. Its just an economy of scale. Look at Mustang body kits! You can have your pick of kits for very little money, and there are dozens to choose from. We can't even get one kit (ie the Trilogy) made for a decent price because we just aren't a big enough market. Face it, for our very limited application, we're going to pay more for our aftermarket parts. I've accepted this. Hopefully everyone else has by now. Its the price of exclusivity, and I'm willing to accept.

PS
Also, look at the Z&M rear CAs. I love 'em, but they cost more than what I've seen the same thing for Mustangs offered for in the back of Mustang magazines. Again, I'm cool with why it costs more, and happy to be a customer. My own common sense kicks in when I think I'm getting gouged, and thus far, the bat-senses aren't tingling :)

Master,

Absolutely. I freely admit I have a lot more to learn about running a business, but it amazes me that some people know how to provide better customer service, build a complex product at a lower cost, provide good quality, etc. All of this from sitting at their keyboards in their basements. I would gladly follow someone else's business model if it existed and was extremely successful. Immitation is the highest compliment. I guess I will get back to learning Business 101.

Thanks

Jerry

[Zack]

Master,

Absolutely. I freely admit I have a lot more to learn about running a business, but it amazes me that some people know how to provide better customer service, build a complex product at a lower cost, provide good quality, etc. All of this from sitting at their keyboards in their basements. I would gladly follow someone else's business model if it existed and was extremely successful. Immitation is the highest compliment. I guess I will get back to learning Business 101.

Thanks

Jerry

Start by reading your own quote you posted on the MCM:


This thread was started by Rich on MM.Net and since some of you have been banned or your systems resources snatched, I thought I would post my response here.

[Jerry Barnes]

Start by reading your own quote you posted on the MCM:

You lost me? Do you want to explain?

Jerry

[STLR FN]

Start by reading your own quote you posted on the MCM:


You lost me? Do you want to explain?

JerryLost me too Jerry. What are you trying to say Zack?

[Zack]

You lost me? Do you want to explain?

Jerry

Yeah, MM.net is a business just like MCM.com is.

Your statement suggests you buy into the suggestion that the owners of MM.net have a secret agenda against a select few.

I dont think I had to spell it out for you. :stupid:

[Jerry Barnes]

Yeah, MM.net is a business just like MCM.com is.

Your statement suggests you buy into the suggestion that the owners of MM.net have a secret agenda against a select few.

I dont think I had to spell it out for you. :stupid:

Zack,

What does the topic or my post have anything to do with MM.Net? Or the owners of MM.Net? I am confused! Are you an owner of MM.Net? Who said the owners of MM.Net have a secret agenda? Do you have a secret agenda? Are you a communist hiding in Chicago? Are you a knob?

This is a lot to think about before you respond, so take a couple of days to formulate an intelligent response.

Sincerely,

Your Buddy!

[LVMarauder]

If you dont have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all. Im sure you all have heard that from your mothers at least once. Why do you have to go and start ****? This website is having a rocky enough time with the new admin and loss of founding memebers full of knowledge.

Its called building a better mouse trap and its capitalism at its finest. Undercut your competitor, increase volume. Is the trilogy too expensive? Well money is relative to the person, to Trump its nothing to Joe Schmoe looking for handouts on the corner its a small fortune.

I know someone is talking about imitating the trilogy kit with the eaton M-112 blower and putting together their own kit. Why do you have to go and start problems making it public and controversial. Mind your own business and leave their respective business's to their owners.

[MM2004]

Zack,

What does the topic or my post have anything to do with MM.Net? Or the owners of MM.Net? I am confused! Are you an owner of MM.Net? Who said the owners of MM.Net have a secret agenda? Do you have a secret agenda? Are you a communist hiding in Chicago? Are you a knob?

This is a lot to think about before you respond, so take a couple of days to formulate an intelligent response.

Sincerely,

Your Buddy!

You two knock it off!

It is .Net's business because of the two of you posting here.

Zack, let it be.

Jerry, no one, has been banned. Period!

If you two want to continue, close this thread and go to the MCM where modding is limited.

Thanks,

Mike.

[Jerry Barnes]

If you dont have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all. Im sure you all have heard that from your mothers at least once. Why do you have to go and start ****? This website is having a rocky enough time with the new admin and loss of founding memebers full of knowledge.

Its called building a better mouse trap and its capitalism at its finest. Undercut your competitor, increase volume. Is the trilogy too expensive? Well money is relative to the person, to Trump its nothing to Joe Schmoe looking for handouts on the corner its a small fortune.

I know someone is talking about imitating the trilogy kit with the eaton M-112 blower and putting together their own kit. Why do you have to go and start problems making it public and controversial. Mind your own business and leave their respective business's to their owners.

Well said! Thank You!

Jerry

[Jerry Barnes]

You two knock it off!

It is .Net's business because of the two of you posting here.

Zack, let it be.

Jerry, no one, has been banned. Period!

If you two want to continue, close this thread and go to the MCM where modding is limited.

Thanks,

Mike.

Sorry Mike. I will behave.

Jerry

[Bradley G]

Thanks for stepping up and saying what I wanted to, Rich.
If I was faced with a decision to purchase a Roots blower kit for my Marauder,
again, with choice "b" available, I would weigh heavily the number of kits sold and the support that is offered.

[Master]

Seemed like a civil start to a thread. Thanks, boys, for getting it back on track. All the best!

[Zack]

Yeah, what ^^^^^ everyone said.

[AzMarauder]

Send your resume Rich, i think you have a chance with Trilogy.

Rich, my friend who mods his mustang heavily laughed his AZZ off when i told him how much i paid.

He told me i was nuts for paying that much for an eaton!
For reference, I paid $4200 for my Kenne Bell 2.2.
I got everything but a chip, heat exchanger and intercooler reservoir.

Wow..

So how did the Kenne Bell install go?
Do you like the implementation?
Do you have any dyno numbers on it yet?

I've been trying to get information from KB for a kit for my Lincoln MKVII. I've not had much response. Do you have the email of someone at KB I might use?

Thanks,

[jimlam56]

Happy New Year.
I wish every one of the Marauder family safe and pleasant travels .
Jim

[O's Fan Rich]

I started this thread to express thoughts on what it takes to bring a new product to market and the costs invoved. I could CARE THE **** LESS WHAT *** DAMN SUPECHARGER YOU FREAKING WANT TO PUT ON YOUR ****ING CAR!!
****, get the hell over it all. STOpPbeing a bunch of whineing *******s.
There is a reason for expense, think about it, that was my point....
Whew, got that off my chest...
Now ban me....

[MM2004]

...and I thought I had a mouth on me.