Shift Sequence

[crouse]

High speed WOT run. 1st gear then 2nd gear then 3rd gear then what?

Converter Lock then OD or OD then converter lock.

What's best? Can our transmissions handle a WOT shift into OD? I know some transmissions retard the timing before the shift into OD.

[ckadiddle]

If I ever get enough open Private Track, I will let ya know. :) I can tell ya that WOT from dead stop mine hits the 2-3 shift just before I cross the quarter mile mark. Thats about 94-95 mph at that point. That's with a tune from DR. I have always wanted to wind it out in third then wind out overdrive. Most likely will be going so fast the paint will melt off from air friction. ;)

[Drock96Marquis]

DON'T WOT into o/d!


There is also 2nd and 3rd gear convertor lock.

[crouse]

Dennis Reinhart helped me with my tune so that the TC will not lock in 2nd gear.

So 1st, 2nd, 3rd then TC lock under WOT.

[Architect]

DON'T WOT into o/d!
There is also 2nd and 3rd gear convertor lock.
Now y'all have got me confused...:confused:
Before I had my 4:10 installed...
I had the Xcalibrator tune installed...
The Marauder would shift into 4th (OD) at 120 +- WOT...
I only did it once...
So I should not do this?
Explain converter lock also...
Man y'all are a wealth of information...:D
Architect

[JMan]

Here I go again talkin' trannies! I should never do this!!!
The convertor locks or tries to lock in first gear in the factory tuning even at wide open throttle at some RPM and speed level (which I do not know). Right at the second gear shift point it unlocks and after complete, reapplies. That's that famous 1-2 bog in the 4R70W, where the "W" stands for wide range as in gear ratios. It goes - unlock, shift, reapply, bog, in that order. That is my biggest beef with the factory tune. There's 3 tenths left on the table right there just waiting to be tuned in! The same happens in the subsequent gear changes as well, but the "W" isn't quite as drastic from 2 to 3 and even less from 3 to 4. I'm sure someone with a clue will pipe in with the exact numbers for study.

If the RPM after the 1-2 shift only dropped to the peak torque "sweet spot", you'd drop a bunch of time in the 1320. Of course, if you have a respectable tune from one of our vendors, this is not a problem any longer!

[metroplex]

There's a TC lock/unlock schedule for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears.

My SCT standard tune:
WOT, 1st, 2nd, 2nd gear TC lock, TC unlock, 3rd, 3rd gear TC lock... finish line (straight line racing).

[Zack]

If you have a tune from anyone, the converter is always locked at WOT, period.

[JMan]

If you have a tune from anyone, the converter is always locked at WOT, period.

Wow! If that's the thinking out there, I don't want someone else's tune. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. What is the train of thought there? Fill my little brain in on the details, please. My thinking, however wrong it may ignorantly be, is that slippage in the convertor would allow the engine to rap up more quickly into the power band in each gear thereby defeating the load more rapidly. Please, explain my misgivings so I understand. Once again, I'm not a tranny-smart fella!

Thanks,

J

[metroplex]

If you have a tune from anyone, the converter is always locked at WOT, period.

It's not physically possible for 1st gear on a standard 4R70W.

[Zack]

It's not physically possible for 1st gear on a standard 4R70W.

I know that.

[Zack]

Wow! If that's the thinking out there, I don't want someone else's tune. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. What is the train of thought there? Fill my little brain in on the details, please. My thinking, however wrong it may ignorantly be, is that slippage in the convertor would allow the engine to rap up more quickly into the power band in each gear thereby defeating the load more rapidly. Please, explain my misgivings so I understand. Once again, I'm not a tranny-smart fella!

Thanks,

J
A locked converter makes more power to the wheels.
That is the only explanation I have to give.

[metroplex]

There's also the argument that a locked converter isn't necessarily the best for getting the fastest ETs for a mildly modified N/A engine.

[Meteorite]

If you have a tune from anyone, the converter is always locked at WOT, period.
You mean unlocked at WOT, I presume?!

For all step-ratio automatic transmissions with a torque converter (regardless of manufacturer), the converter is unlocked as you step into the throttle. With a "tune", either (A) this converter unlock will be scheduled earlier; or (B) converter clutch lock-up will be inhibited up to a certain vehicle speed.

The purpose of the torque converter is to multiply torque. By tipping further into the throttle, you signal the powertrain control system that you are demanding more torque, hence the converter clutch is unlocked to meet that demand. Tip in further, and you will get a kickdown shift (assuming you're not already in 1st gear).

I am an engineer for FoMoCo in the automatic transmission area.

[crouse]

Meteorite, Can you comment on the WOT OD shift? Can or should it be done?

[Meteorite]

Meteorite, Can you comment on the WOT OD shift? Can or should it be done?
I cannot comment authoritatively on this. I've always read that I should not do the 3-4 at WOT (presumably to keep the OD Band from being damaged). For me personally, it has not been an issue when drag racing, since my MM is not quite at the redline when I go through the traps, even with the 4.10 axle ratio. I have always used the "OD cancel button" when racing, though.

However, some of the faster (i.e., power-adder) guys should be able to comment. I'm sure they must be past the redline if they stay in 3rd. However, I think a lot of them have beefed up their transmissions, also.

[crouse]

A friend if mine had a 90 Mercury Cougar with the 3.8 supercharged V6 that he said would actually retard the timing before it shifted into OD.

[JMan]

You mean unlocked at WOT, I presume?!

For all step-ratio automatic transmissions with a torque converter (regardless of manufacturer), the converter is unlocked as you step into the throttle.

Meteorite,
On my '04 Crown Victoria, the lock-up solenoid duty cycle is 100% at WOT in first gear until the shift point. It unlocks for the shift and then re-locks after 1-2 dropping my RPM way down for the start of second gear. When manually defeating the lock-up, that drop isn't nearly as bad and the car rips through second gear at the track. I'm not an authority on transmissions, but I can read and interpret a scan tool very well. This is the biggest beef I have with the 4R70W. With the gearing drop from first to second being as steep as it is, why have the convertor locking and making it worse? As a side note, my MM runs a bit higher RPM (~6000 vs. ~5400 in the CV) and the lock-up bog is not as prominent. I'm just a shade-tree looking for answers. It kills me there is so much (elapsed) time left on the table!

Thanks to all the "authorities", it's great to have this much knowledge to peruse,

J

Edit: Before blasting me, yes, I realize the MM has 33lb' more torque than the CV and at a higher RPM!

[Meteorite]

Meteorite,
On my '04 Crown Victoria, the lock-up solenoid duty cycle is 100% at WOT in first gear until the shift point. It unlocks for the shift and then re-locks after 1-2 dropping my RPM way down for the start of second gear.
Wait, you can't mean that you're driving away from a standing start with the converter locked? :confused: That would defeat the whole purpose of having a torque converter. In fact, one of the purposes of the torque converter is so that you can come to a full stop without shifting to Neutral, and without stalling the engine.

So, what you must mean is that your converter is open for launching the vehicle and then, even at WOT :loco: , your converter gets locked while still in first gear. That makes no sense to me, but I'll trust you on that. If true, this means that the calibrator has intentionally decided to give the customer what the EPA wants him to have a WOT, and not what the customer wants to have at WOT.:shake:

[JMan]

Wait, you can't mean that you're driving away from a standing start with the converter locked? :confused: That would defeat the whole purpose of having a torque converter. In fact, one of the purposes of the torque converter is so that you can come to a full stop without shifting to Neutral, and without stalling the engine.

So, what you must mean is that your converter is open for launching the vehicle and then, even at WOT :loco: , your converter gets locked while still in first gear. That makes no sense to me, but I'll trust you on that. If true, this means that the calibrator has intentionally decided to give the customer what the EPA wants him to have a WOT, and not what the customer wants to have at WOT.:shake:

No, it locks up somewhere in the peak of first gear. 0% duty cycle at stop. If you know a Ford tech, have him throw a PDS in a Panther, only select TCC duty cycle, RPM, Commanded gear PIDs and graph a full throttle run through first into second. I was dumbfounded by this! Even tapping or slightly depressing the brake pedal at WOT doesn't unlock the damn thing. It does at cruise speeds but not at WOT :loco: . Someone outside of the EPA needs to make sense of this for me before I go loco!

Precisely!

Thanks,

J

[Tom Doan]

I blew a built trans the first time I hit OD, only going 85 mph when the shift happened, even with the correct snap ring on the diode, KLUNK car no go. Of course I had a hair dryer on the car at the time, so I was putting 400+rwt through it at the peak of the torque at the time. My trans has been out so many times I use Velcrow faseners. Tom

[MM2004]

...I use Velcrow faseners. Tom

You owe me a new keypad and a cup of coffee for that one!

:lol:

Mike.

[MM_BKK]

If you have a tune from anyone, the converter is always locked at WOT, period.

Are you kidding?! That doesn't make sense at all! What would be the point of having a high stall converter if it locks up at WOT from dead stop? I have a tune from myself and I programmed my TC to lock up only in 4th gear under WOT. If I wanted to, I can disable the lock up function of my TC with my Sniper Tuning software completely. It really comes down to personal preference for the tuner or customer as to when TC should lock up.

IMHO, if the car is not force fed or making over 400RWHP you can WOT into OD with no problem. If you're making a lot of power, then I would not recommend it or you might break something in the trans.

[Big House]

This seems like a good thread to ask this question...I got a PI 3000 stall conver installed some time aga, but since then I noticed at higway speed, when I take my foot off the gas, the tach needle bounces like the little needle on a blood pressure meter trying to find a idle point. What is this and how can I stop it?

[MM_BKK]

This seems like a good thread to ask this question...I got a PI 3000 stall conver installed some time aga, but since then I noticed at higway speed, when I take my foot off the gas, the tach needle bounces like the little needle on a blood pressure meter trying to find a idle point. What is this and how can I stop it?

That's because there is this function of the EEC called Converter Tip In. When you're cruising with TC locked and you let off the gas, the EEC will unlock TC and when you tip in throttle to maintain speed it relocks TC, unless you tip in aggressively and the TC will remain unlock to help you accelerate until you calm down and then TC will relock. The reason why you see RPM surge is because of the high stall converter. At lower speed, it's going to slip more than the stock unit. With my Sniper Tuning software I can tell the EEC not to perform Converter Tip In function. I also found that function to be very annoying. My converter will only unlock based on my TPS vs. MPH parameter table.

[Big House]

So the question is...how can I stop it. I have a custon Diablo sport tune. What should I tell the tuner because I have no idea. Other than this little thing she goes like flaming bat out of Hades.

[Tyrone Minto]

I cannot comment authoritatively on this. I've always read that I should not do the 3-4 at WOT (presumably to keep the OD Band from being damaged). For me personally, it has not been an issue when drag racing, since my MM is not quite at the redline when I go through the traps, even with the 4.10 axle ratio. I have always used the "OD cancel button" when racing, though.

However, some of the faster (i.e., power-adder) guys should be able to comment. I'm sure they must be past the redline if they stay in 3rd. However, I think a lot of them have beefed up their transmissions, also.

4:10 and 13.5 PSI boost
12.4 quarter will just shift into OD 20' from the finish line if I forget to turn the OD off. Personal best 11.932/117 MPH, OD off, 1,2,&3rd only
Good question though...If we were running a standing mile..what is the best way to get into OD for TOP SPEED.
Anyone up for Bonneville?

I believe Lidio has a great thread on the lock up issue on a "sticky"
I know his a slightly different view than Jerry Barnes who I believe is the "godfather" of this tranny.:baaa:

[JMan]

4:10 and 13.5 PSI boost
12.4 quarter will just shift into OD 20' from the finish line if I forget to turn the OD off. Personal best 11.932/117 MPH, OD off, 1,2,&3rd only
Good question though...If we were running a standing mile..what is the best way to get into OD for TOP SPEED.
Anyone up for Bonneville?

I believe Lidio has a great thread on the lock up issue on a "sticky"
I know his a slightly different view than Jerry Barnes who I believe is the "godfather" of this tranny.:baaa:

Ty,
I think it's Jerry W. (sp. Wrobleski?). JB is the Trilogy "godfather"! I realize you know the difference, it was just an oops!

J

[MitchB]

So the question is...how can I stop it. I have a custon Diablo sport tune. What should I tell the tuner because I have no idea. Other than this little thing she goes like flaming bat out of Hades.

I would just keep the converter locked when you lift off the throttle. You can also keep it locked when you apply the brakes. I do this so I will have engine braking when I'm off the throttle.

Mitch