Try This For Paint Swirls

[Ross]

OK, this may sound crazy, but then y'all have come to expect that of me. A couple of weeks ago, I had my baby washed and hand waxed, and like a lot of you, I saw fine swirl marks in the finish. I went home and decided to experiment with several different car waxes I have had on hand forever. None of then did exactly what I wanted, and then I saw a spray can of Fastwax (www.fastwax.com) on the shelf. I have always been a believer that waxing had to be hard, sweaty work, but I thought "what the heck", and gave it a try. I was very pleased that with very little work compared to regular waxing, the swirl marks seemed to disappear and the paint had a deeper black look. The look wasn't as shiny and "wet" looking as some waxes I have seen, but the swirl marks were gone, and I saw a deep black color rather than a grayish finish which the swirl marks gave the car. I'm checking to see where I can buy this stuff locally. I remember that I bought it in the parking lot of a Wal Mart a couple of years ago when there was a guy demonstrating it on your car and selling it.

[Crown Vic]

Hmmm....maybe I'll try that. I have some minor swirls on my car also.

[tbore007]

i hate swirl marks

[JET]

Ross,
Are you sure it just didn't get overcast or dark out. In the direct sunlight my car looks a mess even when I just get done waxing it. In the shade it looks great.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by marauder2306
In the direct sunlight my car looks a mess even when I just get done waxing it. In the shade it looks great.


Simply waxing it won't completely deal with swirl issues, especially on black cars. What I've noticed is that you normally need a glaze-type of product to "fill in" the tiny surface scratches and valley, which are in effect what swirls are. More aggressive products will actually eat away at the sharp edges of the scratches, sometimes filling in the "valleys" with material rubbed off from the top part of the edges, but this is more what I'd call a "compound" instead.

Some one-step waxes will contain somewhat of a glaze or sometimes even a polish. However, to really do a good job of addressing swirls, you need a dedicated glaze or polish. This means you gotta go with some of the multi-step products out there (Mothers, Meguiars, Zaino, etc.). The glaze itself won't last very long unless there's a protective coat of wax over it so you're looking at a minimum of 2 steps (the third step being a cleaner agent that removes oxidation before you do the other 2 steps).

Another thing about all-in-one waxes, besides cutting corners on paint beautifiers, is that they usually either don't last long or contain some awful products to enhance their longevity. You get what you pay for (both in terms of money AND effort).

[studio460]

So, Triple-T, ya think my temporary regimen makes sense, then? Wasn't sure what a "glaze" was--like, in terms of what step in the process a glaze is to be used, and what function it was to perform vs. a cleaner or polish (your post seemed to mimic what I'm doing--correct me if need be). If glaze actually does act as a filler, then this all kinda makes sense now.

Since I can't seem to get around to ever ordering the Zaino products, here's what I've started to do on a test area, with pleasing results (although the swirl remover's abrasive properties still concern me). And as some of you may know, I have some pretty significant swirls.

1. 3M Swirl Remover (abrasive cleaner)
2. 3M Hand Glaze (filler/optical enhancer?)
3. Formula 2001 silicone/urethane (sealer)

[Note: neither the 3M Swirl Remover or the 3M Hand Glaze contain any silicones or waxes, and both are labeled, "clearcoat safe" and "paint shop safe."]

The swirl remover is clearly abrasive--so that's the "cleaning" step, right? The glaze is kinda oily--never really seems to "seal" or buff completely dry without still being able to create a small smear with your finger, when rubbed over the finished, glazed surface--so that's the "filler" step, yes? So, that's why I'm using the Formula 2001 silicone/urethane product as a "sealer."

Does this order of product application seem to make sense to you Triple-T? Thanks for your help!

[Bigdogjim]

What I have done is ask my local body shop where they buy the stuff detailers use. I went to the shop (store) and asked what I could use on swirl marks. They took the time to explain how it happens and how to "fix" the problem. The place I went is called Ardex Laboratories in Phila. If your like me you say uh? Who are they? Never heard of them? Well they reserch and sell products to detailers. I don't know if they are national or not, did not ask. Got a quart of sealer,(11.14) to take the swirl's out, and quart of wax. (12.26) I will try and get to this weekend and let you know how it works. Told me not to use a machine unless I have done before. Good 'ole hand power, wax on wax off.

The dealer tried to "fix" my swirl marks and made it worse. Found out after the fact they use an outsider. Learn the hard way.

[studio460]

Thanks, BigDog! Sounds like some good information. Anxious to try the Ardex Laboratories products as soon as possible, so if I like it, I can still return the 14 gallons of 3M Swirl Remover and Glaze that I bought at Pep Boys (before the 30 days are up!).

If you wouldn't mind posting or PM'ing the Ardex contact info, that would be much appreciated. Did you talk to more than one detail shop? I didn't know that cleaners (swirl removers, polishing compounds, or whatever they're called in the detailing business) were termed as "sealers." Did they characterize the Ardex "sealer" as mildly abrasive? Thanks again for sharing your post here.

[Dr Caleb]

Just wanted to post a link back to the old thread.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=44603#post44603

I gave a link to one of my websites, I put up photos of what Zymol Wax/Cleaner and Maguires Glaze did for me.

I don't know if it will help you NBC, but I guess anythings worth a shot... :-)

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by NBC Shooter

The swirl remover is clearly abrasive--so that's the "cleaning" step, right? The glaze is kinda oily--never really seems to "seal" or buff completely dry without still being able to create a small smear with your finger, when rubbed over the finished, glazed surface--so that's the "filler" step, yes? So, that's why I'm using the Formula 2001 silicone/urethane product as a "sealer."


I've always heard that the 3m swirl remover stuff was only to be used as a last resort to removing some nasty swirls, and even then one would use it with great care. I hope I'm not misleading you by mistaking this with another product.

I don't know how harsh the 'cleaner' steps are, if you're using the commercial stuff like Mothers or Meguiars. I imagine anytime you're removing oxidized paint and contaminants, you're gonna have to do it forcefully... it's not like this kind of stuff gets removed by the product sitting down with the impurity and having a nice chat about relocating. So I understand why Mothers recommends the cleaner only once or twice a year. My applicator turns black instantly when I apply this to my non-clearcoated 1978 T/A, so it's definitely removing stuff (which wasn't such a bad thing if you saw how it looked when I bought it in 2000! LOL!).

As for the glaze, after reading tips and tricks from various sites, I'm beginning to think that one should let the glaze dry thoroughly before removing the excess. I tried this a few years back on my cars, and I'd almost swear the gloss and depth of shine was outstanding. Previously, I'd have the product buffed within 2 hours of application, and yes I'd get some smearing. Not so when I let it dry thoroughly (when I can, I leave it drying at least overnight, if not an entire day - much like Zaino, interestingly enough...)

As for the sealer protecting the glaze... I only have the info from Mothers to base myself on, but they call their 2nd step a glaze/sealer. And they still recommend the third wax step to protect the glaze/sealer product. So this would lead one to believe that the sealer is not enough as far as protecting the glaze product. But unless I have access to microscopic analysis equipment, of course I can't say for sure.

FWIW, I've heard nasty things about silicone waxes. It's apparently very durable, but becomes a real b*tch to remove if you ever need to touch up or repaint some sections. Only relaying what I've heard...

I'm with bigdog, I prefer applying these things manually. Personally, I'm deadly scared of using an orbiting buffer because I tend to really space out when I'm working on my cars... it's great for reflecting on life and all that jazz, but the last thing you want to do is space out and stay on the same spot too long or with too much force.

[TripleTransAm]

Speaking of removing stuff off the '78 T/A... here's a shot of the car shortly after I bought it, Fall 2000.

http://www.tripletransam.com/78ta/ta400_03.jpg

And after one application of the Mothers 3 step stuff in the spring of 2001, no claying, just a good initial cleaning with a mild degreasing soap like Dawn dishwashing liquid to remove all the old unknown crap off the paint.

http://www.tripletransam.com/78ta/78_drvway_1.jpg

[Patrick]

Now that is an AWSOME Trans Am! Now back to this thread. My first Black car was a 95 T-bird. I tried everything to get swirls marks off! Just about traded her for another color. Then I found Eagle 1.

I use the spray poish after every wash. I use the the Liqued wax once a month. And paste wax twice a year. Its great stuff. Its a silicone base and swirls are gone and a shine you could shave by.

But still havent found anything worth a flip for polishing the rims. Ideas?????

[Dr Caleb]

Very dramatic TTA! Nice ride!


Originally posted by Patrick

But still havent found anything worth a flip for polishing the rims. Ideas?????

On the Marauder rims? If so - Don't use an abrasive polish!!!! They are coated I think with a poly or clear coat. It'll take the coating off. I just use a spray on / rinse off cleaner such as Maguires or Mothers. It removes the brake dust (even from the inside over the brake calipers where you can't clean manually). Just rinse it off and towel dry to a wonderful gleam!

I used to use Mothers' Mag and Wheel polish - a small can with a screw on lid - on my Corvette. The wheels were just uncoated aluminum, and it took HOURS! But well worth it. BTW: it was easier on the back to pull the wheels off, one at a time, and polish them.

[jgc61sr2002]

DreCaleb - I believe you are correct in stating that our wheels have clearcoat on them. Never use any abrasives on them.

[Ross]

I know that Never Dull has been suggested a number of times for the exhaust tips. How is this for the wheels?

[Fourth Horseman]

Just did the 3-step Mother's system again over the weekend. After about 2.5 hours of sweat and toil I'm once again forced to wear sunglasses when looking at my car's finish. :coolman:

Pictures don't really do it justice, but I've posted some on my page here. (http://www.collateral-damage.org/marauder/marauder.html)

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by Ross
I know that Never Dull has been suggested a number of times for the exhaust tips. How is this for the wheels? The wheels are clearcoated and I wouldn't use never dull because it contains abrasives and can damage the clearcoat.

[TripleTransAm]

Fourth... you did the 3 steps in 2.5 hours? Damn... that's a big car, you know! Takes me MUCH longer than that on a Trans Am, which has much less real estate to cover!! One of these days try leaving the 2nd step to dry off for several hours and see if it makes a difference... I thought it did.

Just checked your pictures... drool. Almost shorted my keyboard. You're right about black... it's one of the hardest colors to photograph satisfactorily, and is why you will always see a bias towards other colors in car magazines. I don't know what kind of photo equipment you're using, but if you can wing it, try a circular polarizer. It's amazing what body lines and curves you can capture, some of them you probably never realized were there to begin with!

Now, go get some Mothers shampoo and Instant Detailer and let's see if that improves your durability issues.

Great looking car.

[Mike M]

The 3 step is cleaner /glaze/and then wax???

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Mike Mielnicki
The 3 step is cleaner /glaze/and then wax???


First step is the pre-wax cleaner... removes all the crud and contaminants off the surface. They only recommend this once or twice a year... I think it's been years since I did this step on my T/As. If you really want to go ape-*****, you can do the clay bar before all this (it really does make a huge difference, in my opinion).

Then the glaze/sealer. That reduces the appearance of swirls and gives it the deep shine and 'wet look' as they call it.

Then the wax to protect the glaze/sealer.

Sometimes after the wax step, a black car will still show smears on it. Back when I used to do car shows with the GTA, I'd give it yet one more wash after the wax to remove some of the smeary residue. Nowadays, I'll leave it as is until the next wash (99.999% of people will NOT see this, show car judges will) or I will give it a once-over with the instant detailer.

[tomd]

I take my car to the Turtle Automatic car wash 1 or 2 times a week is there any wax, polish… out there that will last??? I have swirls marks on most of my car and been using Zaino Bros products but it doesn’t last very long maybe 5 car washes then there back. :mad2:

[TAF]

^^^You forgot the step using the leaf-blower :lol:

[LincMercLover]

3TA,
I know what you mean about the smearing. I get that with my Meguires Gold Class. Seems to be only in the areas where I put down a little too much wax, and it turns white instead of just hazy. I just leave it go until it's time to touch up the front end from bugs (Fast Wax), then a terry cloth towel brings it right up.

I also use that Fast Wax stuff on the rims, seeing how they're clear coated. Brings up A LOT of dirt you can't even see, and makes 'em really shinny! :up: Anyone claybar their rims yet? :lol:

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by tomd
I take my car to the Turtle Automatic car wash 1 or 2 times a week is there any wax, polish… out there that will last??? I have swirls marks on most of my car and been using Zaino Bros products but it doesn’t last very long maybe 5 car washes then there back. :mad2:


Car shampoo is actually a VERY important factor in the wax's longevity. Automatic car washes (the "touchless" ones) use VERY strong soap to make up for the fact that no physical contact occurs during cleaning. This does a great job of stripping off whatever you had on the car, wax-wise. I'm not a big fan of these car washes for the cars that I pay attention to, finish-wise... some places recycle water and some don't even filter it properly.

Of course, the automatic car washes where there IS contact should be avoided at all costs. No one knows how old or brittle these brushes are, or what's trapped in them!

A good wash mitt or soft all-cotton towel should be used to minimize adding any swirls during washing... sponges and brushes are supposedly a bad idea. Anytime you touch the car, you're gonna be adding some surface scratches (which is what a swirl is) so the idea is to minimize touching the car with abrasive stuff.

[b4z]

Fourth Horseman,

I have been using Mother's on my Camaro for 10 years.
The Sealer/Glaze step make the metallics pop right out of the paint and I literally can't look at the car without sunglasses.

It hides scratches very well also, but after about 5 days they reappear. I also find the wax will last a good 3-4 months no problem.

How did you do it in 2.5 hours. It takes 4 hours on the Camaro and 6 on the Impala.

Did you apply it mechanically with a buffer?

Also the prewax cleaner is a fairly mild polish so it won't hurt the paint. No probs in 10 years on the Camaro. About 20-25 applications.

[Fourth Horseman]

I only did the last two steps this time as I did the first step (the cleaner) last time, and as TTA points out you really only need this once or twice a year.

Also, I had help. With two people the process goes much faster. Though next time I will try letting each phase dry longer than I have been. I've been giving it maybe 10 minutes of dry time per section that I'm working on before removing. My friend was basically 10 minutes behind me as I moved around the car applying each phase.

On your suggestion, TTA, I went and got the Mother's car wash and detailer and I'll give that a go when I wash from now on.

Thanks for all the tips!

[TripleTransAm]

Some things I forgot to mention:

Black cars and sun don't go well together when it comes to washing. The car's finish heats up, and when you match that with cold water, you can get tiny cracks in the paint that will over time become worse, to the point of looking like birds' footprints. This happened to the old '85 Parisienne I used to love so much. :( :(

Also, in the sun, the wash water will evaporate too quickly off the finish, before you have a chance to 'sheet it off' or at the very least dry it off with a chamois/towel (I prefer the sheet method ==> less paint contact). If the water evaporates, you're left with soapy deposits and a film.

Finally, as you've probably noticed, most car care products do not like to be applied in the sun. This also applies to the instant detailer. I learned that the hard way when I showed up at my first car show, sprayed it on the hot hood, and was NEVER able to get it off (until the next wash, but still it had me freaked out pretty bad).