Wide Band O2 sensors....

[magindat]

Has anyone here adapted a wide band O2 sensor to deliver values to the PCM? I have started reading up on this and the info is a bit overwhelming. I know that wideband goes 0-5V and narrow is 0-1V. I have also learned that wide band is more accurate and doesn't fluctuate so much.
If it provides the PCM better info, I'd like to learn of the parts to convert the signal to something the PCM understands or if it's possible to teach the PCM to read 0-5V (I know you can do this to a Honda PCM/ECU).
If I can't benefit the PCM with a widedand, I'll be doing a tuning bung and an AF meter anyways.
Any good input on this?

[RR|Suki]

Has anyone here adapted a wide band O2 sensor to deliver values to the PCM? I have started reading up on this and the info is a bit overwhelming. I know that wideband goes 0-5V and narrow is 0-1V. I have also learned that wide band is more accurate and doesn't fluctuate so much.
If it provides the PCM better info, I'd like to learn of the parts to convert the signal to something the PCM understands or if it's possible to teach the PCM to read 0-5V (I know you can do this to a Honda PCM/ECU).
If I can't benefit the PCM with a widedand, I'll be doing a tuning bung and an AF meter anyways.
Any good input on this?
I dunno if our PCM can read wide band, I do have a wide band sensor and such, just so I can correctly monitor what's going on. would be interested to see if you can connect to the EEC...

[Hotrauder]

Me too, been trying to figure out just how to handle the project thanks to the generosity of Mr. MIKE POORE I have the double hung Pillar Pod. Trying to do both wide band and A/F guage. Dennis

[RF Overlord]

(I know you can do this to a Honda PCM/ECU).And just HOW do you know this? You aren't one-a those CLOSET RICERS, are ya? :nono:

[magindat]

And just HOW do you know this? You aren't one-a those CLOSET RICERS, are ya? :nono:

Used to be, but I went to a 12 step program.

Hi, my name is Rich. I've been rice free for 5 years now....

[juno]

Used to be, but I went to a 12 step program.

Hi, my name is Rich. I've been rice free for 5 years now....


:D :D :D

Very good Rich.

I have the AEM wide band controller installed and it is very nice to see your A/F ratio live. It will connect to an external device. I believe that currently the PCM gets input from the precat sensors and the post cats are for monitoring Cat life only or possibly emissions testing. I think you would have to have it take the place of your precat O2's for engine management. The unit has both 0-5 and 0-1 volt calibrated output signals. Mine will not be used for engine management, unless someone has some real life experience with such on our cars.

[warren]

Hi All,
Spoke to AEM factory Tech. and we cannot use the 0-1 volt output for our PCM as after yr 2000 the PCM's are more sensitive and will toss a code.
It would have been nice to just replace our norrow band O2 sensor
with their wideband and send the 0-1volt to our PCM and the 0-5 to
the guage.

So we must drill hole and put new wide sensor in above the 1st cat.
Has anyone done this and how did it go??? It's a really tight area.

Thanks,
Warren

[RR|Suki]

Hi All,
Spoke to AEM factory Tech. and we cannot use the 0-1 volt output for our PCM as after yr 2000 the PCM's are more sensitive and will toss a code.
It would have been nice to just replace our norrow band O2 sensor
with their wideband and send the 0-1volt to our PCM and the 0-5 to
the guage.

So we must drill hole and put new wide sensor in above the 1st cat.
Has anyone done this and how did it go??? It's a really tight area.

Thanks,
Warren

I've done it, but I have custom pipes, with hi flow cats... seeing as your an AEM tech, is it normal for the a/f to move between the stoic area, as in not a constant 14.7, like 14.3 - 15 just kinda fluctuating :confused: this isn't at WOT btw, just cruzin along :D

[JMan]

I've done it, but I have custom pipes, with hi flow cats... seeing as your an AEM tech, is it normal for the a/f to move between the stoic area, as in not a constant 14.7, like 14.3 - 15 just kinda fluctuating :confused: this isn't at WOT btw, just cruzin along :D

RR,
I'm not an AEM tech, but have a little insight on O2 and PCM fuel control operation. The O2 sensor is just that, an oxygen sensor. It either sees oxygen or no oxygen, not unlike a smoke detector in your house. If it sees no oxygen, the PCM incrementally cuts back the injector's pulse width time until the sensor sees oxygen again. At that point the PCM increases the injector's pulse time until the sensor sees no oxygen again. Hence, if your engine control is spot-on and your wide band is calibrated properly, you'd see fast fluctuations above and below stoichiometry - in your case = .35 above and below 14.67. Just for the record, a wide band feedback system would keep the A/F ratio damn near 14.67/1 (or some other calibrated ratio) all the time. The wide band sensor sees degrees of oxygen and not just "presence" or "lack of" oxygen like an O2 sensor does. I hope that makes sense without getting too technoid!

Best wishes,

J

[magindat]

Me too, been trying to figure out just how to handle the project thanks to the generosity of Mr. MIKE POORE I have the double hung Pillar Pod. Trying to do both wide band and A/F guage. Dennis

Wide band with A/F guage is easy. I'm trying to figure out how to convert a wideband signal to a narrow band signal the PCM can understand. We can get this done when you come down for the header install.

[JMan]

Wide band with A/F guage is easy. I'm trying to figure out how to convert a wideband signal to a narrow band signal the PCM can understand.

Rich,
The factory programming won't cut it. Converting it to a parameter base the PCM can understand wouldn't yield any gains. It would still only see oxygen/no oxygen. Can it (The PCM) be configured for a W/B? Don't know. That is a question for the tuning experts of which I am not one! I'm certainly interested to find out though.

J

[magindat]

RR,
I'm not an AEM tech, but have a little insight on O2 and PCM fuel control operation. The O2 sensor is just that, an oxygen sensor. It either sees oxygen or no oxygen, not unlike a smoke detector in your house. If it sees no oxygen, the PCM incrementally cuts back the injector's pulse width time until the sensor sees oxygen again. At that point the PCM increases the injector's pulse time until the sensor sees no oxygen again. Hence, if your engine control is spot-on and your wide band is calibrated properly, you'd see fast fluctuations above and below stoichiometry - in your case = .35 above and below 14.67. Just for the record, a wide band feedback system would keep the A/F ratio damn near 14.67/1 (or some other calibrated ratio) all the time. The wide band sensor sees degrees of oxygen and not just "presence" or "lack of" oxygen like an O2 sensor does. I hope that makes sense without getting too technoid!

Best wishes,

J

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The pcm is contsantly adding and subtracting fuel according to the narrowband's input. The narrowband sensor can only show 'over stoich', stoich, or 'under stoich'. Since a steady stoich is NEVER gonna happen, it constantly gives and over/under signal. Do some data logging and you'll see what I mean! The graph looks like a zipper! If you send this signal to a meter, the meter is gonna constantly bounce up and down and basically be useless in my opinion.

If you have a tune, the rear O2's are turned off. Therefore, on a stock exhaust, just unscrew one of the rear O2's and put in a wideband and get a wide band meter. Tada! Problem is who needs an A/F meter with a stock exhaust?!

So, weld in a test bung, add your wide band, install your meter and boom. One accurate A/F meter. I WILL be doing at least this when my headers go in.

So what? I can see my AFR now. I can adjust my tune. Great. What does that do for engine management? Why can't I send a converted signal to the pcm so that fuel is not constantly added/removed?

Yep, the factory strategy works great. Yep, lots of cars run this way. Nope, it's not a problem. It just seems to me it would be better to feed a more steady signal to the PCM. Seems to me the car would be more efficient. Seems to me it would make a tune 'safer'.

[magindat]

Hi All,
Spoke to AEM factory Tech. and we cannot use the 0-1 volt output for our PCM as after yr 2000 the PCM's are more sensitive and will toss a code.
It would have been nice to just replace our norrow band O2 sensor
with their wideband and send the 0-1volt to our PCM and the 0-5 to
the guage.
Well, that's not what I wanted to hear. The above scenario is EXACTLY what I was aiming for. There are many wide-band kits (PLX, ACCEL, NGK, Innovative Motorsports, etc) that claim to output the 0-1V signal to run a pcm.


So we must drill hole and put new wide sensor in above the 1st cat.
Has anyone done this and how did it go??? It's a really tight area.

Thanks,
Warren

This, I ain't scared of and intended to do anyways. Just have your friendly naighborhood exhaust guy weld in a bung, install the O2, route wires safely and install your wide-band meter. No reason in creation that wouldn't work.

[Loco1234]

if you truely want to have full wideband control do it with a F.A.S.T. engine mangement system. I believe thats what a few guys on hear do now for serious drag race numbers.

F.A.S.T is a setup that uses a wide band O2 and will replace stock computer management and use their engine mangment instead...

I understand it works great but you give up some of you vehicles creature comforts... hence why only the most derious drag racers do it....

they even have a new DUAL o2 sensor setup which allows you to use an O2 sensor on each bank.... now with that info at you finger tips you could really dial it in...and keep you engine in check.....

...but it will works great....

Heres their website....
http://www.fuelairspark.com/

[magindat]

I understand it works great but you give up some of you vehicles creature comforts... hence why only the most derious drag racers do it....
I'm not trying to go that far. I just imagined engine management would be enhanced by a better O2 setup.

http://www.fuelairspark.com/
Thanx, I'll read up on it.

[magindat]

Rich,
The factory programming won't cut it. Converting it to a parameter base the PCM can understand wouldn't yield any gains. It would still only see oxygen/no oxygen. Can it (The PCM) be configured for a W/B? Don't know. That is a question for the tuning experts of which I am not one! I'm certainly interested to find out though.

J

So am I hearing that the pcm only sees rich/lean no matter what the quality of the signal is? That sux.

It's no so much about gain as it is about safety, tunability, and smooth operation.

We've done a lot on these cars that out-smarts Ford. This another one of those things. Looks like we might not win this round!!!

Where's Zack? I know he's got something to say on this!!!

[JMan]

So am I hearing that the pcm only sees rich/lean no matter what the quality of the signal is? That sux.

The signal coming from the O2 sensor is analog, varying between ~ .100 & .900 volts. The PCM can't interpret analog so it has an analog to digital convertor. Any thing below ~.450v is considered lean, anything above is rich. It constantly sweeps and the PCM constantly corrects.

A wideband system uses a set calibration relating to the output voltage of the sensor. They typically use a central voltage for a stoich mark. 3.30v for Toyota for instance. As the exhaust shows more oxygen the voltage increases and vice-versa. The entire operational range of most W/B's is about 1 volt (2.7 to 3.8). They don't use the entire 5 volt range.

I'm sure that makes it more muddy, eh?

J

[magindat]

Crystal clear. The pcm can't understand analog. Can only understand 0/1, like 0 for rich and 1 for lean.

OK. Question answered. I'll continue with my project.....

Thanx Jake