Clunk after 4.10's

[jwheeler]

Do any of you guys with 4.10's get a clunk when you are driving at low speeds(around 25 or so), when you let off of the gas and coast, then reapply the gas?

Thanks

-J

[TAF]

No and that doesn't sound right to me. I'd have the backlash checked.

More knowledgable folks will have more detail below.

[JamesHecker]

I don't get a clunk...but I do get a nasty wind down noise after I have lit up the tires under WOT.

[Zack]

I have a similar noise but its not coming from the rear end. Its the driveshaft making the noise from loading and unloading torque. The sound comes from inside the tailshaft. Had it before and after the gears. Had it before and after the MMX driveshaft.

As for the wind down noise after doing burnouts, that is the alternator clutch disengaging. It is normal. Open your hood and while in park, rev it up at the throttle body to WOT and youll here it even more clearly.

[CRUZTAKER]

No clunks, just my low level whine at or about 1200 rpm in 3rd with a tad gas applied. I've gotten used to it.

In the past cars I've owned, all rice buggies, mazdas rotarys in particular, when the clunk came (later in life), the problem was in one of two places; The gear box, or the universals on the shaft.

In your case, since you just did gears, and it's a new noise, the problem is apparent......

What Tod said, or something to that extent.

[merc]

I hope not to put fear in your mind, but I would have someone check the installation of the gears. Bearing installation could be the culprit. I currently have no odd sounds emitting from my rear end, but I have only been in the 4:10 club for a couple of weeks.

[JohnnyB]

Since when do alternators have clutches.......

[WolfeBros]

I don't know since when but I do know that Zack is right. The Marauder has a clutch on the alternator that works under WOT. Works meaning it disengages the alternator on WOT.

[martyo]

There is a further discussion of the alternator clutch issue in the threads on under drive pullies (the clutch is the reason this pulley does not get swapped out).

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by WolfeBros
I don't know since when but I do know that Zack is right. The Marauder has a clutch on the alternator that works under WOT. Works meaning it disengages the alternator on WOT. I agree. I think that is the reason an underdrive pulley can't be added to the alternator.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by merc
I currently have no odd sounds emitting from my rear end


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is probably a good thing... for all of us.

[BillyGman]

Good one TTA.........hey guys, I have a question about 4.10 gears. I hope I'm not hijacking this thread by interjecting w/a new question, but it is related to the original question of this thread.
I just installed 4.10 gears in my Marauder. My car only has 1700 miles on it, but I wanted better acceleration.
Anyway, this is the first time I've performed a ring & pinion gear change. I've done my best to do my homework before tackling this job. During the procedure I checked the old pinion gear depth and the pre-load before removing the pinion. I also set the pinion depth of the new pinion, checked to make sure I had proper backlash(it was right on) and used the marking compound to verify proper gear tooth patterns. And ofcourse I set the correct preload on the pinion bearings after installing the new pinion too.
So even though I believe that I've done everything correctly, I'm still a bit nervous as to weather or not I can dubb this a successfull mission, since it's my first ring & pinion job. I've put 160 miles on the car since I've completed the work, and I've heard no clunking, grinding, or whining noises at all. My question is, how many miles do you guys think that I should put on it before I go hammering the gas pedal, and/or I can label this a successful mission? And for you guys that have the clunking or wining noises, how many miles did you put on your cars after the work was completed, before you started hearing those noises?

[SergntMac]

I can't diagnose what you're hearing in this one dimensional medium. But, I can offer a checklist of notes from my own experience, of things that happen in a heavy car. Presuming that you have checked your trans fluid level and it's on the mark, consider these conditions?

1) Taller gears will emit a louder whine, how you hear that and how you feel about it as a problem whine, is your business. If a passenger hears it, it's probably too loud and indicates other problems.

2) Every drive line has some "play" in it, a little looseness is normal and expected. Looseness that causes regular and routine clunks when you add even mild power, is not. At that point, your "clunk" is more a driveline "slap," and you will be resolving this soon because breakage is just around the corner. Check U-Joints first, they will be the first to emit a slap. if you can get movement from the drive shaft by hand, replace the U-Joints before going into the tailshaft or rear end. This is the process of "rule out" of other causes in any forensic search for cause and effect.

3) As it has been mentioned, the ring/pinion backlash may need adjustment from a fresh install of 4:10s. I adjusted mine at 1K after install, and 3K after install, the pinion bearing gave out anyway. Pinion bearings can get "crushed" from power, it's no big deal. Some of us replaced our pinion bearings with the new gear, some have not. If your hearing a clunk now, a loud and very noticable whine should start soon, and it will be a constant whine from forward movement of the drive line, not just under power. That's a pinion "howl" and a clunk could be in there too.

4) Check with your wrench, make sure he used locktite on the ring bolts, and torqued them to spec. Power can make them back out.

5) If you are just coasting along and you feel this clunk relative to a shift into 3rd gear or overdrive, or, out of it when downshifting, it could be your torque converter locking/unlocking. That would be normal, but disturbing until you know what is causing it. Again, is a passenger comments about it, that's a sign it is out of spec, have someone look at it.

6) There is a LM repair TSB on rear ends, the bearings are bad from the supplier, no harm no foul. The TSB will replace all bearings, seals and both axels, but not your 4:10s.

7) The OEM posi unit may have given out, the clunk or slap may be from troo much play in the spyder gears, or a latent lock-up of the posi track function, if it's still locking up at all. If either, a rebuild is in order. Remember this though, if you have damaged your posi unit this soon in the game, consider an upgrade in durability over a just rebuilding. Your driving habits and power will be a constant problem that the OEM posi unit will not endure. If this is what is causing your clunk, don't just fix it, prevent it from clunking again. An upgrade may run you close to 900 bucks, but it will be a one-time rebuild you won't sweat over again.

8) If your clunk isn't covered in any of these suggestions, it's probably inside the tranny, and that's not good. Absent any seal leaks, check with a transmission pro.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by BillyGman
My question is, how many miles do you guys think that I should put on it before I go hammering the gas pedal, and/or I can label this a successful mission?


I *think* one of the reasons the owners' manuals specify not sticking to one speed for too long during break-in is for proper differential/misc.gears break-in. It's my belief that under different loads, the gear mating surfaces can 'walk' a bit, and you wouldn't want to develop a too-narrow wear groove on your teeth faces which would then lead to premature wear as the irregular groove edges wore into each other too aggressively. So by varying speeds and drivetrain loads, it's my belief that one is essentially 'preparing' a larger area of the gear tooth face.

That being said, personally I'd treat a new diff gear installation the same way as breaking in a new car. After the break-in mileage is complete (say, 1000 miles, perhaps) if you don't have any whine at any speeds or load, you might then consider it a success. If you're really anal, you might even want to pop the cover off and check the wear on the gear teeth... there should be a nice wide oval-shaped wear spot on the center of each tooth where it's mated with the other gear.

[BillyGman]

thanx for your response.....I'll take your advice.

[Hemlock]

25,000 MILES WITHOUT ANY BAD NOISES . I HAVE THE H.D. DRIVESHAFT ALSO .

[jwheeler]

I took my Marauder to the local Ford Garage today to have them listen to the clunk it makes. They thought that it was a normal sound and I should not have to worry about it. It just could of been that the car has done it all along, but now with the 4.10's in there its moved the clunk into the range I drive at around town. They felt it was the normal play in the rear end.

I think I feel better now!

Thanks Guys

-J:burnout:

[ghost]

A properly installed set of gears should emit NO WHINE.

Except if you're running Richmond gears. They're noisy.

I've had 5 sets of gears in my car. Whine = premature death of the gears. It will only get louder.

Eric

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by ghost

I've had 5 sets of gears in my car. Whine = premature death of the gears. It will only get louder.


Yep, if not corrected, it will get worse.

I bought my GTA with 18000 miles on it, and the diff would emit a soft whine under light load only as it approached 55 mph and disappeared by 65 mph or so. Eventually, it developed a series of ratcheting clunks when turning (diff oil was old and needed fresh friction modifier, since the clutches were grabbing excessively).

During this service, I had everyone in the dealership check out the gears... beautiful even wear patterns, many technicians claimed it was the nicest condition they'd ever seen diff gears. But still the diff whined...

Now, at close to 75000 miles, the whine has moved to a larger range of speeds (maybe 45-50 mph to 65 mph) and I'm now getting a hint of whine on deceleration in 3rd gear from those speeds (with TCC locked, meaning there's a reverse torque acting on the diff through engine braking). It's either bearing-related or a result of whatever misalignment brought on the initial whine those 10 years ago...

It's not terribly loud... some people might actually find it cool sounding, so it's gonna stay that way until something blows up. Damned old cars...;)

[ghost]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Yep, if not corrected, it will get worse.

I bought my GTA with 18000 miles on it, and the diff would emit a soft whine under light load only as it approached 55 mph and disappeared by 65 mph or so. Eventually, it developed a series of ratcheting clunks when turning (diff oil was old and needed fresh friction modifier, since the clutches were grabbing excessively).

During this service, I had everyone in the dealership check out the gears... beautiful even wear patterns, many technicians claimed it was the nicest condition they'd ever seen diff gears. But still the diff whined...

Now, at close to 75000 miles, the whine has moved to a larger range of speeds (maybe 45-50 mph to 65 mph) and I'm now getting a hint of whine on deceleration in 3rd gear from those speeds (with TCC locked, meaning there's a reverse torque acting on the diff through engine braking). It's either bearing-related or a result of whatever misalignment brought on the initial whine those 10 years ago...

It's not terribly loud... some people might actually find it cool sounding, so it's gonna stay that way until something blows up. Damned old cars...;)

Oh man, I destroyed a set of gears once, made a hell of a sound going down the road! I cringe just thinking about it....CLUNK, silence, CLUNK, silence..... Broke two teeth off the ring gear while grabbing the 1-2 shift in my Caprice.

But hey, the pattern looked great, LOL!

Be nice to that cool GTA! ;)

[SergntMac]

Anyone remember the "cool" sound of a Muncie M22 rock crusher tranny?

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Anyone remember the "cool" sound of a Muncie M22 rock crusher tranny?


Yes. I also remember the bigger bicep size one would develop after a few hundred miles of 'spirited' driving, on just one arm (the shifting one). :D

I'll bet that's why the hottest musclecars were manual steering... just so that you could build up your left arm too!:D

At the time, I figured the tranny noise and hard shifting was just because it was an old car (my age is such that I only got to enjoy the 60s monsters in the 80s) but after reading a lot of written accounts, looks like that's how they shifted brand new, too! (turns out to have been due to the gear teeth cut angle, good for strength but bad for noise)

[SergntMac]

I wanted to send this to you privately but you have no e-mail available. Sorry, I tried. And you get this here.


Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Now, at close to 75000 miles, the whine has moved to a larger range of speeds (maybe 45-50 mph to 65 mph) and I'm now getting a hint of whine on deceleration in 3rd gear from those speeds. It's either bearing-related or a result of whatever misalignment brought on the initial whine those 10 years ago...

Yo..."/Steve"...Can't anything just wear out?

I mean like...TEN YEARS man and fifty seven thousand some miles...Isn't this like "end of tour" for any manual gears? No rebuilds? No updates? Adjustments? Just TEN years at hard labor and you are disappointed with a "hint" of a whine? Ummm...Okay. I can't hear there from here, so, nevermind.


Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Yes. I also remember the bigger bicep size one would develop after a few hundred miles of 'spirited' driving, on just one arm (the shifting one). I'll bet that's why the hottest musclecars were manual steering... just so that you could build up your left arm too! At the time, I figured the tranny noise and hard shifting was just because it was an old car (my age is such that I only got to enjoy the 60s monsters in the 80s) but after reading a lot of written accounts, looks like that's how they shifted brand new, too!

So...What you are saying here, is that you never drove a Muncie M-22 "rock crusher" manual transmission, right? If you could find one today, you would be blessed to drive it.

You can remember a "bigger bicep," but you can only "bet" that this is why the "hottest muscle cars of the day" had manual steering. Ummm...I think you are (have been) reading too many old Hot Rod mags. You were not there, you do not know.

Yeah...Back then, we shunned power everything. Power steering, A/C, windows, wipers, seats, trannys, and everything else that tapped/sapped power from the the engine, because we wanted as much power to get the ground as possible.

This had little to do with M-22 performance or driveability. The M-22 was as "close ratio" as you could get back then. It is now, and will forever be, a hallmark of accomplishment in manual gear shifting.

Yeah...We balanced the pain of a manual steering box with BIG steering wheels, (think ratio y'all). We also avoided the popular accessories emerging in those days, like power windows, seats, windshield washers, radios with 8-tracks, rear speakers, spare tires, tilt, tint, and blah, blah, blah. "Delete" was our word, not the factory's notice.

We ran as stripped down as we could buy them, because any dead weight, was dead weight. Conveinence? Gimme a break. these cars were rough, hard, mean, cheap, easy, fast and quick. 450 HP at the wheels...Radio? Why? Can you listen that fast?

Yeah...We gave up the accessories, but because they had no payoff. The M-22 worked, overtime. Aluminum case, choice of ratios, superlative synchros...Go ahead and jam the next gear without any clutch and damn near red line too, see what happens. Nothing but the next gear, maybe the race too.

The M-22 IS the best ever 4 speed manual tranny to ever leave Indiana for Woodward Boulevard, check me.

I doubt you ever suffered any "Popeye" limb from any rock crusher, or, 3200 pound clutch plate. Stop reading us stories from your history book, K? You're out of pages.

Can we get back to the thread now? Please?

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Just TEN years at hard labor and you are disappointed with a "hint" of a whine?


A bit. I haven't really abused the car, in the classic definition of abuse. The howl's been getting louder over the years, and now with the hint of whine on deceleration it's a sign that wear is becoming an issue. Sad, considering most other cars will go through much harder abuse and more mileage before showing these signs of wear. *shrug* I've learned to accept this as a result of buying a car that basically sat in storage for 6 years prior to my purchase. :(




So...What you are saying here, is that you never drove a Muncie M-22 "rock crusher" manual transmission, right? If you could find one today, you would be blessed to drive it.


No, what I'm saying is that I never drove a NEW one. When you're unaware of how something is supposed to sound when it's brand new, you kind of dismiss it as an old-car sound, especially when you feel the 'sound' through the shifter. Over the years, I've read that this was a characteristic of those trannies and your short note about that 'sound' validated that yet again.

I wasn't about to bang off powershifts in someone else's car, especially a 454 Chevelle (not original engine or tranny), although the owner had no hesitation in doing so while I was a passenger. No matter how much someone eggs me on to put their cars through the paces, I can never force myself to do it. But quick shifts did take a sort of determination... kind of like "damnit, you ARE going to go into that gear right now, and I MEAN it!!!" LOL!




I doubt you ever suffered any "Popeye" limb from any rock crusher, or, 3200 pound clutch plate. Stop reading us stories from your history book, K? You're out of pages.



If you wanted to send me this privately, we've got a pretty good 'private message' system provided by this cool message board software. So if you want to send a flame publicly, be my guest, it's a free net, you've succeeded.

At first I wondered whether I should take the above flack personally. I've tried to 'throw playful jabs' or 'break chops' as you called it way back when, regarding the tint issue, just to try and build up an easy going atmosphere between us. That didn't work. Heck, I even tried to keep quiet when you were reaming two other folks for stupid semantic reasons (intake versus induction versus whatever), and one of them was KISSING your rump, to top it off. And apparently I missed a real pi$$-up of a thread by a few seconds one night where I surmise you tore up another member of this board or two.

So, I'm not going to venture down the path your reply would seem to promote. You called me a liar, straight out in public, when there were perfectly good methods to contact me privately, as you supposedly intended. There's PM... hell, a short "Steve please email me" or "please PM me" would have sufficed to take this off-board.

That being said, if you think I am a liar, it's your right. If you think I am incorrect in anything I post, please feel free to correct me. We're (mostly) all here for learning and sharing our MM experience. If you've got something against me, we can take it offline. But if you're here to beat up on others depending on your mood swings (whether sale-related or not), be prepared. I think I have a lot of stuff to learn and a lot of stuff to share and that's why I'm here... why are you here?

So, with that, let's get back to why we *should* be here... enjoying cars and in particular one of the most exciting cars of our time.

[SergntMac]

Jeeze...You okay Bud?

Need a minute to take a breath? All this stuff here...Eh?

Man-oh-man...I did try to get in touch with you by otherwise means. I'm sorry that this didn't work out, but the options I get to pick from, are your options, yes? Did you "set me up" on this point?

As for the rest of it...You made your case, I made mine. Let the observers decide.

You never had an M-22 in your hands, nor underneath your "seat of the pants" meter. You know nothing about the Muncie M-22, or, cars from those days, eh? Ummm...Thanks for your contribution.

Can we please...Get back back to the thread?

I'm zipped up...

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac
You never had an M-22 in your hands, nor underneath your "seat of the pants" meter.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

What's it going to take, pictures? I can't get over this, I've got this guy I've never met telling me what I HAVE and HAVE NOT driven! LOL! Now, I honestly don't give a crap what you believe about me or not, but why do you feel the need to challenge me on this, as insignificant as it is? I suppose you'd feel the same if I came out of the blue and told you your stories from your Chrysler dealership days were all hot air, and that you were stuck driving a slant six Valiant instead.

You chose to flame me because you have an issue with me. You brought it public for whatever reason. I'd like to know why... far as I can tell, I've never insulted or verbally abused anyone on this board. So what's the 411?

[ghost]

V V V

[Wags]

Well, lets see if I can clear up some questions on the Muncies. They made 3 different ones. The M20, M21 and the M22. The M20 was a wide ratio, the M21 and M22 were close ratio, with the SAME ratio gears. The M22 had straight cut gears, hence the noise. The ratios were, for the M20, 2.52 or 2.56:1 for 1st, 1.88:1 for 2nd, 1.46:1 for 3rd, 1:1 for 4th, and 2.59:1 for rev. The M21 AND M22's were 2.20:1, 1.64:1, 1.28:1, 1:1, and 2.27:1 for rev. You would usually get the close ratio for 3.73 on up rear end gears to compensate for the 2.20:1 1st gear. My M21 will whine in 1st through 3rd, and is quiet in 4th. My M22 whines a little more, and will still whine a little in 4th.

Wags

[JET]

What the hell is an M-22?
:confused:

[SergntMac]

Yo.../Steve...

I'm SergntMac@aol.com

I have invited you to e-mail me before. You did not capatialize on that invitation.

I've invited you to call me before. You did not capatialize on this invitation either.

This is my last invitation to you /Steve. One more time...

/Steve...(or anybody), I can be reached in my office, at 312.745.5207. I'm at my desk any day of the week before 2 PM Chicago time, except Tues/Wed...Greco-Roman calendar donchano. I don't want any "language" issues to deter anyone.

You game /Steve? Or, are you too busy reading old posts and digging up old history? I am amazed at how much you remember my past, my ex-wife didn't get that deep in her testimony...

[RCSignals]

I remember the sound of the Muncies. I personally never owned one though.

Remember the four speed non syncro boxes in Ford trucks?



Then there was the Super T-10 as well

[Bigdogjim]

Originally posted by ghost
V V V


Some days that all it takes! Its only a car guys:confused: :help: