Update on rebuild

[MAD-3R]

This is an e-mail update from VT Engines on my car.



We have the engine completely disassembled right now. I waited to give you
an update because after we pulled the heads off, it looked like the mains
could be bad. Fortunately, it did not spin the bearings, so the block was
ok.

I included a couple of pictures for you to see the failure on the pump gear,
and to see the inside of your engine.

Your engine is coming along well, my builders are balancing your rotating
assembly right now.

Talk to you again soon,
Tom

[cyclone03]

pictures?

[RF Overlord]

Yah, let's see 'em...!

[MAD-3R]

The pump that failed

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php?photo=352

[MAD-3R]

The inside

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php?photo=353

[darebren]

the oil pump gears failed?? Searge, is that what you were referring to at the Trilogy open house?? Billet gears would be better??

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by darebren
the oil pump gears failed?? Searge, is that what you were referring to at the Trilogy open house?? Billet gears would be better??

Yep...

[MAD-3R]

Just got this in today. Snce I know may of you are following my little Saga with almost as much attention as I am myself.


Philip,

Unfortunately, ARP has been having some quality control issues. Either that
or we have just been extremely unlucky of late. The last 4 sets of main
studs for 4.6 liters (including 4valve and 2valve) have had one problem or
another. Your set happened to have wrong nuts in it. We were able to steal
one set of nuts from another box, but still did not have 1 set. We have
been battling with ARP for about a week and a half to get the correct ones.
We should have them Monday, at that point I can have your bottom end
complete. The heads are being looked at this afternoon and tomorrow
morning, so I will have a better idea by the first part of next week on when
you will be able to pick it up.

Please forgive me for the set backs, unfortunately we can't always predict
what quirks that other people are going to have; it especially hurts when we
rely on them so much.

Sorry if this message sounds negative, I don't mean it to be. Your
shortblock is looking great as of right now, and I assure you the rest will
too when it is complete.

If you need anything else, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Thanks,
Tom


As you can see Tom has been very comunniative with me , and I am THRILLED to have them working on my engine.

[engine23ccvfd]

Gotta hate when you have the wrong nuts in your bottom end :)

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by engine23ccvfd
Gotta hate when you have the wrong nuts in your bottom end :)

Unless they've been replaced with brass ones...

:lol:

[gja]

OK....OK,
This thread went south in an ugly way.....
You guys keep your nuts to yourselves.

[Fourth Horseman]

Mad, you getting a forged crank put in there or going with the stock one?

Sounds like these folks are doing a great job for you. :up:

[MAD-3R]

FORGED BABY, FORGED!! :up:

[engine23ccvfd]

Man I need to learn what all these different car parts are....is there a car mechanic for dummies or something?

[MAD-3R]

Yes actually there is.

[TAF]

Originally posted by engine23ccvfd
Man I need to learn what all these different car parts are....is there a car mechanic for dummies or something?

Where do you think RF gets HIS answers from??!! :lol:

[Ross]

That's my very next mod--- a copy of Car Mechanics for Dummies. Half of the threads on this board consist of people answering my basic questions.

[TAF]

Originally posted by Ross
Half of the threads on this board consist of people answering my basic questions.

Ross...welcome to the club...I've learned more here over the past year than I EVER imagined. Lots of wisdom here, and there are no stupid questions.

[engine23ccvfd]

I ordered Auto Repair for Dummies from bn.com for fifteen bucks it was published in 1999 but should cover the basics.

[Bigdogjim]

That book is a run away best seller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[engine23ccvfd]

Well then they need to make a add horspower for cheap to Marauder for Dummies series (w/o voiding warranty for dummies would be a good one too!!!!!)

[Warpath]

Originally posted by darebren
the oil pump gears failed?? Searge, is that what you were referring to at the Trilogy open house?? Billet gears would be better??

I believe the stock gear (inside housing) is powdered metal. The rods are powdered metal too. That stuff is crap IMO. Billet is definately a step up - more like a flight of stairs up.

[Paul T. Casey]

Powdered metal is great, providing effective quality controls are in place. Look at your paint for an example of Ford QC as of late. If they can't get paint all over where it should be, do ya think that they can read a temp. gague and a timer for powdered metal? Just a little metallurgy for dummies, and the not so dummies.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Warpath
I believe the stock gear (inside housing) is powdered metal. The rods are powdered metal too. That stuff is crap IMO. Billet is definately a step up - more like a flight of stairs up.

I agree.

Wait...If it's not powdered metal now, it won't be powder in your hand later...Right?

Anyone care to explain exactly what "powdered metal" is?

I can't imagine this...Something is either powder, like in talcum powder, or, solid, as in a solid bar of soap.

To me, metal is metal. Steel, Iron, hard...

How does "powder" come to be associated with "metal."

Maybe I'm just stupid here, but if only one other MM.Net reader learns something, I won't mind being stuipd...

Educate me, let us all know?

[RF Overlord]

Sarge:

Try this (http://www.southcomgroup.com/pm4.shtml) link...

[looking97233]

RF Good link.

[gonzo50]

Well, I know that I just learned something interesting about the metal in our cars, not just our cars but automotive, period.
Nice job, RF Overlord. :up:

[Mad4Macs]

Great. My oil pump is a brownie. How much for a billet pump?

[jgc61sr2002]

RF - Excellent link. You are the answer man.:up:

[Warpath]

Originally posted by Mad4Macs
Great. My oil pump is a brownie. How much for a billet pump?

More than you want to spend to change the pump gear alone. If you rebuild the engine, change it at that time. Otherwise, you don't really need to.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Warpath
More than you want to spend to change the pump gear alone. If you rebuild the engine, change it at that time. Otherwise, you don't really need to.

$9787.43 in US dollars, quoted in the Chicago market.

That's what a new motor will cost the average MM owner when his engine goes south, and he just happens to have a few of the bad boy mods in place. Not any supercharger like power mind you, but just enough mods to give LM an opportunity to back away from a warranty repair.

Is this billet pump upgrade cheaper? If I paid twice the price you have in mind, is it still a bargain?

I notice that your sig speaks of some experience in this area. If we could turn back the hands of time, I'd be interested to hear what you would have spent to avoid such an experience yourself?

[MAD-3R]

I am being charged less then $500 for the new pump, gear, and pickup. Labor would be high sence it would require moving/removing lots of bits. Well worth the cost for the piece of mind.

[Mad4Macs]

Anyone have any data showing that 4.6l engines aren't "reliable". From what I've read about the failed engine in this thread, an improper dampener installation contributed to the pump failure. Did Mad feel that LM was honest about this, or did he think he was getting the shaft. I'm concerned enough to replace pump gears, if the 4.6 has shown to be problematic. I just got rid of my V8 SHO. Know why? Check out V8SHO.com
V8 SHO engines are failing at a frightening rate, and it's due to a design defect. I've written to owners of V8 SHO's, read numerous articles on the nature of the failure, and had checked out a local shop that was welding the cams as a preventative measure. I lost faith in the Yamaha V8 reliability and I got rid of the car. I really like my Marauder and I plan on keeping it. Any thoughts? I'd like mostly to hear if Mad thought he was offered a truthful explaination of his failure. Yes, I believe an out of balance crank can cause serious damage, but I'd love to hear his opinion... Thanks!!!

[MAD-3R]

The 4.6 is a proven, reliable design. The probems here arise from parts that can take factory power, but with OUR motors, jumping the HP increases the chance of something going wrong. I think it may be a "tolerances" issue. With out the balancer in place, the oil-pump didn't have the stength to take the added strain. Cheap part that would have been fine, but the added strain showed it's weekness

[Warpath]

Originally posted by SergntMac
$9787.43 in US dollars, quoted in the Chicago market.

That's what a new motor will cost the average MM owner when his engine goes south, and he just happens to have a few of the bad boy mods in place. Not any supercharger like power mind you, but just enough mods to give LM an opportunity to back away from a warranty repair.

Is this billet pump upgrade cheaper? If I paid twice the price you have in mind, is it still a bargain?

I notice that your sig speaks of some experience in this area. If we could turn back the hands of time, I'd be interested to hear what you would have spent to avoid such an experience yourself?

From my Cobra experience and from what I pick up on corral.net, the pump gear is not the weak point of these engines. Its the cast pistons and weak rods. Granted, I don't know every 4.6 4V failure, but everything I have seen has been piston related. Detonation (from being lean or advanced timing too far or bad gas etc.) will crack the ring land of the #7 cylinder first followed by #8 (for Cobras). In my case, I have low compression. The lowest compression is in #7 and second lowest is in #8. The remainder of the cylinders are the same and seem healthy. Adding oil to #7 and #8 increased compression leading me to believe it was run too lean. This is how I received it from the tuner (Livernois Motorsports). I haven't torn the engine apart, but I do not expect any oil pump problems.

I am having the engine rebuilt with billet oil pump gears for added insurance. Since the rods and pistons will be stronger, the pump gear may end up as the weakest link. Like Mad stated, its cheap when the engine is rebuilt. I asked about changing it later and was told the engine basically needs to be disassembled. If you are going that far, might as well put forged internals in. That is what I meant by my statement.

I think there is some unnecessary panic about these gears. There may be a quality problem with them. But, if there isn't, then there should not be any concern with them IMO. There should be more conern about the pistons and rods and maybe your crankshaft since yours is cast. Again, that's just my opinion.

[Warpath]

Here's a picture of what I am talking about. The ring lands are broken. I believe these are the stock pistons and rods. I haven't seen them in person. The person posting this pic on corral.net did say if they were.

[Mad4Macs]

Thanks for the opinions!!! My MM is stock (for the forseeable future), but I may just get the HP "bug" again. I know how fun it can be, as when I was 20, I built a sweet '68 Cougar. I had a 351 prepped by Alan Roots, balanced and blueprinted, with aluminum heads, roller rockers, cammed and
carburated for fun. I had a small block C6 rebuilt for it (try finding one of those on Oahu!!!), Curry enterprises supplied the gears. A local speedshop fabricated a custom "true dual" exhaust. This was my daily driver for about 5 years, sold it when I moved back to MI and I MISS IT EVERY DAY...
Point is, I'm keeping my MM like, forever, 'til Death Do Us Part, and I want this thing to last.
Thanks again for all the input...

[Warpath]

Originally posted by SergntMac
...I notice that your sig speaks of some experience in this area. If we could turn back the hands of time, I'd be interested to hear what you would have spent to avoid such an experience yourself?

I missed this part of your post. I knew in the beginning that adding an S/C would shorten the life of the engine. I knew that the engine would go sooner or later. I was just hoping for later. In the case of my engine, there's only two ways to avoid engine failure: 1) Find a competent tuner or 2) rebuild the engine with forged internals. Unfortunately, the tuner I chose said they could work on it much sooner than the more popular/well known places. My eagerness and impatience did me in. I should have waited for the best place, not the quickest. In the end, Livernois Motorsports took over 3 months. So, it took just as long to get it completed as any place else. The second option may not work either if the tuner isn't competent. I learned from my mistake and am having the engine built at a highly recommended place. I won't get a running car until fall. But, hopefully, I won't have to go through this again.

BTW - The piston picture I posted is not mine. I found the pic at corral.net. I just wanted to clear that up.

[SergntMac]

Warpath...Thanks for all the 411.

I don't think it's any kind of panic going on here, more like a learning curve. There's so much so many of us don't get about this engine, and we won't get it without asking. Can't tell ya how many engine shops I've visited over the past year...

Let me ask you this? Other than the '03 Aviator and the Mach 1, where else is this InTech 4V engine used?

Yeah, I heard about the 7-8 piston thing, didn't that cause a delay in production?

I fully agree that if you are intending on regular hard driving, shoring up the bottom end is good advice. I was surprized to learn how inexpensive it can be (relativley speaking) and what other goodies you can add when doing that. My estimate on a steel forged re-build on the MM came in around 6K. This was tempting too, punch out the engine to 5.0L with all the good stuff inside, and you have a real sleeper there in N/A trim.

[Warpath]

From memory, the 4V first appeared in the Mark VIII. It may have been used in the Continental too. I remember something about it being mounted transversly in a FWD car. I don't remember any other car at the moment. There is a good article in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords a few months back detailing the 4V history, parts, and part interchangeability. I don't remember it stating anything about cast cranks though. Anyway, if I remember, I'll post the issue month. Its a good article for newbies.

I heard some rumors about the Aviator and engines delaying production. But, I don't know much. The 7-8 thing is for Cobras for sure. Your engines may end up with 3-4 being the first to go since intakes are mirrored. Just a guess.

Yes, new engines are relatively cheap. I got my blower kit for $3000 through a group purchase. They're normally ~$4000. A forged 4.6 shortblock is about $3500 - $4000. A 5.0 shortblock is about $4500. But, the head gaskets for a bored 4.6 to 5.0 are about $200 a pair. They finally have real gaskets available now. You could only get copper gaskets before and they leaked. I have also talked to a local place about a 5.0 stroker. The crank is offset ground. I was advised on corral to go big bore instead of stroking it. Here's the link. http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=307229
So, for about the cost of a blower kit, you can have a forged short block. Not to shabby. The bad thing though is if you cannot install it yourself, expect to pay about $2000-$4000 more depending on where and what else you do.

[SergntMac]

Warpath...My 6K estimate was turnkey installed, with a few other things, like powder coated bling bling stuff. I already had the cookie jar half filled when things changed. The builder has done a few MM engines, including his own. Says it's all aluminum, cast crank, powdered metals, and so on. Durable, within limits.

[studio460]

Warpath:

Thanks for all the info you've posted . . . Do you know if the piston in the picture is forged or cast?

[bchapman]

My lame and limited understanding is that, unlike the cars of yesteryear, today's cars are more like integrated computers. Every part of the vehicle has been computer-designed to work in synchronization with all the other parts. Mess with a single component and the domino effect comes into play. Changing any component means changes then need to be made all over the system.

I'm more of a computer person than a car person. I've seen what havoc a single newly installed program can wreak on a server. It's not the fault of the hardware; it's the incompatible software.

I don't know if I'm expressing myself correctly but I'm trying to say that the Marauder is more than a sum of its physical parts. There's a lot more going on under the skin than meets the eye.

[Warpath]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Warpath...My 6K estimate was turnkey installed, with a few other things, like powder coated bling bling stuff. I already had the cookie jar half filled when things changed. The builder has done a few MM engines, including his own. Says it's all aluminum, cast crank, powdered metals, and so on. Durable, within limits.

$6k for an engine with the cast crank and stock pistons and rods? If so, that seems about right. That is the quote I got from a dealership to install a stock Cobra engine.


Originally posted by NBC Shooter
Do you know if the piston in the picture is forged or cast?

The guy didn't state either way. Judging from the grainy look of the rod, I think they're the stock cast piston and pm rod. The forged rods I've seen have been smooth looking and lighter in color. I haven't seen a picture of a stock piston in a long time and I can't remember whether they are flat top or not.

The article I mentioned above is in the March 2003 issue of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. There's a picture of a Mach 1 doing a burn out on the cover. They did a similar article on the 2V 4.6L engine the previous month and posted it on their website.Click me (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0302MMFF_MixMatch/) I would think the 4V article would show up soon.

Here's an example of what these engines can do when rebuilt. Its a twin turbo 4.6 L Mustang putting out 1090 rw hp. They say its capable of 1200 rw hp or more. There probably isn't much left of the stock engine. http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=331416

[MAD-3R]

Talk about a high-jacked thread... :lol:

[Warpath]

Sorry MAD. I guess we all have ADD.

[MAD-3R]

Not upset, I just think it's funny. And the info is good.

[Dave Compson]

I still check this thread to see how the updates are going on mad's rebuild.

Now, it has kinda turned into en education on the internals of the family of engines we have.

[MAD-3R]

Aside from your cams being rusty (looks like maybe the car sat outside for a
while), everything is looking great. We were obviously able to clean up the
cams, so they look like new. It doesn't look like anything serious for your
heads. Unfortunately, my 'head' man (no pun intended) is at a funeral
today, however he was working on them yesterday. It looked as though they
just needed to be cleaned up and a valve job -- nothing serious at all. The
worst thing that happened to them was not from your oiling problem, it was
actually from the heads sitting exposed without lubricant (like oil).

The ARP nuts have still not arrived. It appears as though overnight mail
means "snail mail". What I have done is ordered a new set of studs, I will
grab the nuts I need out of that set and replace them when the others come
in. I apologize for not doing it sooner, but I was relying on someone else
to do their job.

Like I have mentioned before, the machining and assembly is a cake walk for
my guys, the complications always come from waiting for other suppliers.

In other words, we will have your shortblock completed and your heads done
at the latest by Monday. We will then go ahead with the completion of the
assembly and installation.

We're starting to get close. Are you ready? ;)

Talk to you soon,
Tom

[Dave Compson]

Thanks for the update. I cant wait to hear now nice the new engine is, and how much more powerful it is than before. Keep your chin up.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Warpath
$6k for an engine with the cast crank and stock pistons and rods? If so, that seems about right. That is the quote I got from a dealership to install a stock Cobra engine.

Must be a bad connection, static in the phone lines...Anyway...

VT custom forged 4340 crankshaft
JE forged pistond, 11:1 compression
JE file fit rings
Eagle forged H beam connecting rods
Clevite 77 Main and Rod bearings
High volume oil pump with pick up
billet oil pump gears
ARP main and head studs
Misc fluids, gaskets
4558.00 in parts

Pull motor, disassemble
bore and resurface block Rottler F65
Hone on Rottler H series hone
Balance and blueprint assembly on Hines Balancing System
reassemble and reinstall.
2195.00 in labor

6754.00 for a 5.0L Marauder that can take a liking and keep on ticking...

[Mark McQuaide]

Looks like the dealer actually caused more damage to the motor, letting the internals sit around with no oil. What a dirtbag!

[Warpath]

Originally posted by SergntMac
...4558.00 in parts.... 6754.00 for a 5.0L Marauder that can take a liking and keep on ticking...

I went back through my numbers. I'm not a big fan of posting prices since things may change and affect prices. So, please remember that what I show may be different than what you may be quoted.

Big bore short block $4500
Includes custom Diamond pistons, Eagle rods (9.8:1), stock Cobra crank, balancing...

Oil pump gears, misc stuff (fluids, gaskets, etc), head work (minor deck, shim valve springs, clean up and check), pull and install engine with long tube headers, tear down engine and make short block a long block ~$3200

Pull and installing the engine is cheaper with shorty headers on a Mustang since there is so much more room. LTs are a tight fit. MMs may have the advantange of a large engine compartment. You may save on some removal/install labor time. Taking that into consideration, the prices seem pretty similar.

You don't mention anything about a tune. Do your numbers include a tune?

[MAD-3R]

A deablo chip is included, but i am also going to Chicago for the fordchip powertune.