camshaft change? anybody done it?

[whd507]

in one of the mustang magazines this month there is a story building up 4v modular motors. blown and unblown,it was a good read (I quickly blew through it) anyway, they put some comp 262s in it and got it up to 400+ hp N/A I think they hit 800ish with serious mods and blower/nitrous.

so my first thought is $1200 for cams is cheaper than a blower, and still look stock.

I would imagine that a higher stall and 4.10s would be needed, but I dont want to be the first.

[Drewstang]

Cams are not difficult if you have mechanical ablity. The hardest part will be degreeing the cams and keeping track of the 4 timing chains. I don't know about 400+ hp N/a with just cams and bolt ons. It sounds a bit high to me.

[fastcar]

in one of the mustang magazines this month there is a story building up 4v modular motors. blown and unblown,it was a good read (I quickly blew through it) anyway, they put some comp 262s in it and got it up to 400+ hp N/A I think they hit 800ish with serious mods and blower/nitrous.

so my first thought is $1200 for cams is cheaper than a blower, and still look stock.

I would imagine that a higher stall and 4.10s would be needed, but I dont want to be the first.

You will DEFINITELY need gears or a stall. Get a 3500 RPM PI converter.

Is this your first mod? If so, do the gears and or converter first, then the cams.

I really hope you do it, because I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience. Don't forget, you'll need a retune, also, which will cost you something. I know Alternative Auto, and Reinhart do them, but if they aren't close, you can have someone else set it up for you. It will need to go on a chasis dyno, to do it right.

Yes, with bolt-ons, 400+ is attainable, but not cheap. Cams won't do it alone. You will need good long tube headers, a tune, CAI and possibly a few others as well.

I like the idea, because you don't have to lay down $4500-$5500 to have a blower installed, but can put parts on the car as your budget allows. In the end, a 400-425HP Marauder will have you well into the 13s, and that is good enough to smoke most anything out there, esp. with gears and a PI converter.

fastcar:burnout:

P.S. Ford Racing has some cams that are suppose to be great, as well. Make sure you consider them, too.

[Raudermaster]

I thought someone did this (or tested it) and said HP to $$ wise it's not worth it on our cars and you're better off getting a blower.

[racorcey]

Before I decided on just a simple tune for my MM, I had been ordering a special cam for my Chevy, and talked with Crane's specialty group about their two sets of cams for the MM. I was quickly disuaded by Crane themselves. First because of the cam cost (noted in a post above), and at least that much again to find someone to do the labor correctly. All that for between 20-30 hp on the "smaller" cam, and about 35 hp on the "bigger" cam. A good tune will produce a good 35-40hp more for about $400. That's a lot less than $2500 for the same hp. Worse yet, the cams raise the peak hp rpm where the additional power occurs - not something you want with a 4300 lb car. The Xcal2 tune keeps the peak hp rpm from going any higher than it already is.

Just remember the old adage, "....speed cost $$...how fast do you want to go?" :D

[Master]

I did it. Remember? I think it is SO worth the effort. I went from 242 rwhp stock to 308 with a generic DR tune with only the following:
heads ported, flowed, matched
FRP cams
JLT CAI
Kooks long tubes and full exhaust
Now that I've added the 6 speed, its jumped to 335 rwhp, and still without a specific dyno tune!
Get the cams, but be sure to do the rest as well. They work best as a package. I'll let you know about the 4.10s when they get installed. They won't hurt anything, that's for sure. With the stock gears you are only ticking over at 2,000 rpm at 75mph, and you can still do 153mph in fourth at redline. The 4.10s might let me use 5th gear. Not sure when I'll get to use 6th :)

[RCSignals]

Very interesting results with your 6 speed!

[Master]

Et Voila! Enjoy!

[whd507]

any noticable difference at idle? (ie "lope")

I have heard of using Navigator/Blackwood intake cams as well. I would like to see more dyno runs on these motors with various cams. the article was with a cobra motor w/o blower, so it made 400 hp with 8.5 compression (and headers) and almost 500 fl lbs tq but at higher rpms. one would think that 10.1 comp would inhance low end torque over a lower compression engine.

as far as mods, I have an slotted-drilled rotors,intake spacer, proguard and DR tuned Xcal.

next will likely be real guages, with the cams a way off (unless it will "lope" a little and get rid of the lifter tick - my only real complaint with the car)

[Master]

After I did the heads and cams, I no longer had the blue-start syndrome. It is somewhat lopey at idle, but by no means is it obnoxious.

[Raudermaster]

Wow I didn't know you had a 6 speed, sweet! Pics?

[fastcar]

NO WAY, A 6 SPEED, NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is my DREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

I am so green right now. OMG, please post some pics. Please describe what it's like. T-45, right? Do you love it, or what??? Have you 1/4 miled it yet? Tell us all about this car from heaven...

fastcar:burnout:

[racorcey]

I did it. Remember? I think it is SO worth the effort. I went from 242 rwhp stock to 308 with a generic DR tune with only the following:
heads ported, flowed, matched
FRP cams
JLT CAI
Kooks long tubes and full exhaust
Now that I've added the 6 speed, its jumped to 335 rwhp, and still without a specific dyno tune!
Get the cams, but be sure to do the rest as well. They work best as a package. I'll let you know about the 4.10s when they get installed. They won't hurt anything, that's for sure. With the stock gears you are only ticking over at 2,000 rpm at 75mph, and you can still do 153mph in fourth at redline. The 4.10s might let me use 5th gear. Not sure when I'll get to use 6th :)

Master,

Unless I missed something, I believe WHD507 mentioned just changing cams initially, in which case, that's too much $$ for too little gain, at least compared to getting just a decent tune. Changing cams and adding headers will almost always work good synergy and the gains you saw are not uncommon. It really depends on how far and how much $$ WHD507 wants to spend, of course.

[fastcar]

Master,

Unless I missed something, I believe WHD507 mentioned just changing cams initially, in which case, that's too much $$ for too little gain, at least compared to getting just a decent tune. Changing cams and adding headers will almost always work good synergy and the gains you saw are not uncommon. It really depends on how far and how much $$ WHD507 wants to spend, of course.

Master, I have to agree with racorcey. Dude, you spent a ton of money on your car! Full exhaust including long tube headers must have cost you $2500 alone. Ported heads with R&R? I don't even WANT to know what that set you back. Then all the other stuff on top of it, including cams? The whole thing must have cost AT LEAST $5000. You can do a blower for that, and have another 100HP, easily.

For this guy, the first step should not be cams, not good bang for buck.

PI converter, gears, tune. These are the best... Maybe headers after that. Of course the usual stuff, water pump, spacer, UDs, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with spending a lot on a N/A setup. I like it, It's just some can't go that route.

By the way, you should be getting A LOT MORE POWER, IMHO if you put a tune on your car. I think it will jump 50 HP... Ford is making like 415 RWHP with this setup, and the only thing you don't have that they do is the intake manifold.

Please, still tell us all about this car - I love it!:D

fastcar:burnout:

[Master]

Well, the cams were $1,400 or so on e-bay (who buys retail anymore?), and the Kooks was the same price we've all paid as members. Same for the CAI. The heads were done by a bike shop (yeah, really) owner who is a racing legend around here. He needed a silencer for his bike dyno, and I needed head work. He got an $800 silencer that he needed (which cost me a fraction of that to build) and I got some of the sweetest heads going. He actually exceeded the flow numbers of the Ford Prepped heads. BTW: Anyone wanting this service, let me know. He also did my heads for the experience so that he could take on more similar projects.
What I end up with is a car that looks totally stock under the hood, has no extra bits to worry about (I know, with Trilogy, worry isn't really an issue), and an extremely linear power delivery. I also have a wicked base for when I supercharge. All tolled, I gained 65rwhp (and, admittedly, could have more with other than a genereic DR tune) for about 5k Canadian. So, the universal truth presents itself again. HP is expensive, and rule of thumb is $100 per hp. Had I gone Trilogy, the ratio of $/hp would have been about the same (assuming that in both cases I needed to hire someone for the install). Mine was 5, the Trilogy would be about 8k (remember, I'm in Canada, and when I did this work, the dollar was at about 90c US). For me it was a no brainer. Start with the inside and work my way out. I have a wicked base to build from, and when I want to supercharge, it can only get better. But as far as bang-for-your-buck, my set-up is comparable to a supercharger when you compare $/hp. I don't have as much, but I also didn't pay as much. Voila!

[Master]

I'd like to share pics of the 6 speed, but not here. This is someone's cams forum. I've got one started (elsewhere) and if you like I could continue to add to my old thread here. Just let me know.

[illwood]

I've also seen cams for the 4-valves and been curious. I would think that when you start looking at a boosted application, that you want less overlap.

Stock cams are supposed to be some of the best turbo cams.

NO WAY, A 6 SPEED, NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is my DREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

I am so green right now. OMG, please post some pics. Please describe what it's like. T-45, right? Do you love it, or what??? Have you 1/4 miled it yet? Tell us all about this car from heaven...

fastcar:burnout:
The T-45 is a 5 speed similar to the T-5. The T-56 is Tremec's 6-speed (and probably what you meant).

I'd like to share pics of the 6 speed, but not here. This is someone's cams forum. I've got one started (elsewhere) and if you like I could continue to add to my old thread here. Just let me know.
A courteous decision.

[sailsmen]

Master I am impressed with what you have done.

I also beleive u are leaving hp on the table w/o a Dyno tune and possibly recieving no to very little benefit from the Cams.

Others N/A w/o Cams have developed the same and greater HP numbers.

I beleive Pauls w/ an S\C Cobra motor could not keep the same trans in a Marauder. He may have eventually sorted it out.

For a drag racing street car an auto is hard to beat.

Have u contacted a magazine about a write up?

[Master]

My stock numbers were 242. With the cams, exhaust, heads, intake and DR off-the-shelf tune, it jumped to 308. Ford Racing suggests 60hp increase with these changes. I've made 66, with more available upon custom tuning. So, I'd say I'm getting exactly what Ford advertised with little left untapped.
I'd like to see some of the rwhp graphs from other N/A cars making 308 and get a list of the mods they've added. It would take a number of "Bolt Ons" to achieve 66 rwhp. Electric pump, underdrive pulleys, better ignition, etc. It all adds up, though. And I'd still be surprised by 66 hp increase.
The Ford cams are pretty mild and don't require a special tune for normal operation. So, as such I doubt that they would be an impediment to boosting.
Not sure what Paul was using, but I do know that the T-56 is good for 440 ft-lb of torque, so I'm good to about 380 rwtq. Beyond that I'll be looking at a new tranny. This would have been Paul's problem: Too much torque for the T-56. Should I surpass this point (which I likely will with the 5.0 overbore block), then I'll upgrade to a g-force or some such. One tranny I'd love to have would be the sequential Hollinger unit as seen on the FR500GT (see Car and Driver, Dec. 2006, page 46). However, at $12,000.00 it might be out of my price range. :(
Not being a drag racer (though I'm taking it out once later in September for a benchmark), the auto doesn't remotely appeal to me. If I'm not shifting, I'm not driving. If I'm not driving, I may as well not have a Marauder. I'm extremely biased against autos, and will apologize now to any who might be offended by my adament stance.
Haven't contacted any magazines as I'm not sure any would be interested. If they were, we'd need another car to show them the step by step procedure.

[Pops]

310 at the rear whells and it takes all the mods you are talking about plus headers and a worked over intake manifold. 13.56 to date but waiting for cooler weather. You have done a great job.
As far as Pauls car goes it wound up with a Trans. out of a viper with Pro cut gears. That took care of the problem.

[Master]

PS:
That FR500GT is a 5.0 Roush-Yates N/A engine that is considered to be a monster. It makes 534 crank hp, which is about 430 rwhp. If I hit 400 with my n/a 5.0, I'll be pretty happy with my cams ;)

[Master]

What is 13.56 to date? Oh, you mean your quarter mile time? Do you have a dyno graph? Love to see one from someone else.

[fastcar]

PS:
That FR500GT is a 5.0 Roush-Yates N/A engine that is considered to be a monster. It makes 534 crank hp, which is about 430 rwhp. If I hit 400 with my n/a 5.0, I'll be pretty happy with my cams ;)

Are you sure a stick shift will soak up 104 HP? I'm thinking more like 30-50 sounds right...

fastcar:burnout:

P.S. Yes, please post a link to your other thread. We'd all love to see the stickshift, and much more so, the clutch, brake pedal, and some details about how you did that. I really can't wait to see your car - fc.

[fastcar]

BTW, blackened 300a is reporting 293 RWHP with only the following mods:

SCT Dyno tuning by Powersurge Performance
Steeda U/D Pullies
EMP/Stewart High Performance Water Pump
PHP Intake Spacer
Accufab 60mm Throttle body
Metco Carbon-Fiber Intake tube
PHP Cold Air Intake
Cherry Bomb Vortex Mufflers
Res-Delete tip's
180* T-Stat
Denso IT-20 Plugs

It's a short list, and a lot of power. But, I think it's realistic. I can't imagine that your cams, full length headers and full exhaust and ported heads are worth only 15 HP more than his water pump, throttle body, spacer, plugs and UD. This is why some of us think you are leaving some HP on the table without a good tune... If you are interested in doing the spacer, and throttle body, you should do them before you put a tune on it.

fastcar:burnout:

p.s. don't forget your link;)

[sailsmen]

302.4 rwhp 315.3 torque Normally Aspirated
PHP Cold Air Kit
PHP Intake Spacer
Steeda Underdrive Pullies
Meziere water pump
KOOKS long tube SS headers
Free flow Cats, X-Pipe, 18” Magnaflow Mufflers
2.5 inch exhaust & Megs open tips
Motorcraft; 180 stat & AWSFA12C plugs

Others w/ Similar mods have gotten similar RWHP w/ a Dyno Jet corrected. The water pump and the semi-long tubes w/ better tuning pushed the MM's over 300RWHP.

My car is set up as a dd drag racer. Based on advances more and more race cars from drag to road are going to autos.

I have owned a lot of manual sports cars and enjoyed all of them. I am not sure I could enjoy a manual drag racer.

Manual as in shifter and clutch are manual.

[fastcar]

Not sure what Paul was using, but I do know that the T-56 is good for 440 ft-lb of torque, so I'm good to about 380 rwtq. Beyond that I'll be looking at a new tranny. This would have been Paul's problem: Too much torque for the T-56. Should I surpass this point (which I likely will with the 5.0 overbore block), then I'll upgrade to a g-force or some such. One tranny I'd love to have would be the sequential Hollinger unit as seen on the FR500GT (see Car and Driver, Dec. 2006, page 46). However, at $12,000.00 it might be out of my price range. :(

Someone is building and selling a t-56 for about $3300 that is built. First they start with a brand new Viper box, then BLUEPRINT it. They they install their own special OD cluster, that gives you .8 5th, .74 6th. It's stronger, and now you can actually use the gears. Based on your comments, this would be very appealing to you:D

My understanding is that the transmission will now handle just about whatever you throw at it, as long as you USE YOUR CLUTCH. You can break anything, if your try crash shifting it.

fastcar:burnout:

[illwood]

Someone is building and selling a t-56 for about $3300 that is built. First they start with a brand new Viper box, then BLUEPRINT it. They they install their own special OD cluster, that gives you .8 5th, .74 6th. It's stronger, and now you can actually use the gears. Based on your comments, this would be very appealing to you:D

My understanding is that the transmission will now handle just about whatever you throw at it, as long as you USE YOUR CLUTCH. You can break anything, if your try crash shifting it.

fastcar:burnout:
I believe even stronger is the close ratio viper version available from D&D Performance (http://www.ddperformance.com/t56__6_speed%20transmissions.h tm). I plan on running one of these bad boys in my '94 Mustang when it gets the twin turbos.

BTW, I've heard that there is an even stronger T-56 called the Tranzilla.

[Master]

Not sure where to start here. 1st, as I mentioned, the parts I've added do just what the manufacturers claimed they would. So, I've never expected more. Next, I look at the two N/A cars listed above. They seem to be fairly equal apart from the Kooks full exhaust. Sadly, it appears that the Kooks are adding only about 8hp. Does this seem reasonable? Not likely. The sad truth about modifying is that the hp gains from the parts are rarely additive. Go through a magazine and add up all the "claimed" hp from each component and the sum will not equal what you really get on the dyno. In general, add-ons are a case of diminishing returns. I could add the items listed above and I certainly won't get my rwhp (308) PLUS the difference between stock and what these guys have (say, 302-242 = 58 hp). I know I won't be at 366 by adding the spacer, big MAF, electric pump and plugs. I think we all have to be happy with the way we get to where we are, and be satisfied that every additional step will provide less and less return as we go on. Some may disagree, but I know what we see on the dyno. Rarely are the mods additive.
However: All of this said, I will concede that I need a good tune. Sadly, even though I have the dyno, I do not create tunes from scratch for Fords (we can, but my car isn't going to be a guinipig). Hopefully, when I add the supercharger I'll get a comprehensive tune that brings everything together. I still stand by my mods (including cams) as they gave me just what I expected. Hopefully, we can all say the same. It would be no fun having invested even a fraction of what we've all put into our cars only to be saddened by the results. I'm Canadian, so what can I say? I just want everyone to win, and be happy.

[fastcar]

Canadian, eh? Give us your link, man - I don't care if your from Mars! We want to see your car :D

fastcar :burnout:

[Master]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=526068#post52 6068
Enjoy!

[94_302]

You can play the number game all day long but if he were to throw on the underdrives electric water pump and all the other bolt ons that the other cars have to reach the 308 number his car would be making significantly more power imo. These motors can make power N/A. Also remember that the FR-500 cams are fairly mild if he went with some more aggressive cams the gains would be greater. I would really like to see what Masters can do with a good dyno tune and a ported intake.

[racorcey]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=526068#post52 6068
Enjoy!

Even thouugh I know you're up in The Great White North, I love the 240KPH speedo. I could make believe! :D

- Randy

[Pops]

94 302 I would like to see that also as I have the underdrives and the ported intake on mine already. I think there is a lot more power to be unleashed with out the SC add. I am done messing with the NA motor and am doing the SC for spring but have to say I will miss the NA motor as it has been a lot of fun and it goes like a bat out of.

[frdwrnch]

Dollar for dollar there are more cost effective horsepower gains than cam swaps. I agree for a long term build plan that cams will give the potential to gain more horsepower. But the immediate support modifications such as torque converter, exhaust, and tuning make this less cost effective than traditional bolt ons. Not to mention it take an experienced modular engine tech to install these correctly in about 8-10 labor hours at least.
I recently watched a 2000 Mustang drift car w/4.6 2V and a single turbo go from 435 rwhp to 585 with a tune. It had stock cams!

[sailsmen]

If the original posters question was for $1,200 can I buy some cams and make 400RWHP, the same HP as an S/C.

The answer is no.

Another question was are cams a cost effective way to add HP. For the average Joe that pays for the RR probably not.

The best buy is nitrous.

The cost and options for a S/C kit are better than when I purchased my Kit on Feb '05.

For a daily driver IMHO ~450RWHP is the max on a stock engine. All the IC S/C kits are producing this.

[Master]

Re 240 KPH Speedo:
You guys should be buying them and recalibrating so that the KPH become MPH. Easily done, you just have to remember that you are travelling at 240 mph and not 240 kmph.
BTW: For those of you who think we're all smug up here using metric, you've probably noticed that according to convention, we should be using m/s and not KPH/hr. Base units should be used for metrics. Besides, I like the idea of travelling at 32m/s when I'm going slow - 70m/s when I'm going fast, etc.

[racorcey]

Re 240 KPH Speedo:
BTW: For those of you who think we're all smug up here using metric, you've probably noticed that according to convention, we should be using m/s and not KPH/hr. Base units should be used for metrics. Besides, I like the idea of travelling at 32m/s when I'm going slow - 70m/s when I'm going fast, etc.

Master....if you figure out how to do 32ft/sec/sec (Terminal Velocity) with you modified buggy, I want to do the patent on it.;)

[Master]

9.8m/s/s is a bit trickier than 32 m/s, but certainly doable. That would be one g of accelleration, which I think a number of cars are already doing.