Gauging interest on paddle shifters

[BigCars4Ever]

I've been thinking about adding paddle shifters to the MM for autocross. My thought was to have a module in-line with the harness so while in drive I could highjack the control of the shift solenoids, Tourque converter lock-up and shift presure. Then I could use paddle shifters on the steering column to select the gears. I've had on more than one occasion the car upshift in a turn and cause some unwanted rotation. And the PCM takes forever to engage when shifting manualy. I don't think this is a very hard project and will require minimal engineering. I've already found sources for the pigtails needed to break into the cable. Anyone else interested?

[Zack]

Id be interested, thanks!.

But remember, this mod is dangerous unless you find a way to disengage the OD band in manual 2nd.

[Raudermaster]

Me too, but I wouldn't want to harm my tranny.

[MarauderSM]

If you are successful I would love to give it a whirl too!

[fastcar]

ditto, but afraid of frying the tranny. I heard they aren't suppose to be manually shifted...

fastcar:burnout:

[94_302]

PM Jerry W I think if anyone would know the positives and negatives to this it would be him.

[Drock96Marquis]

The car will probably set a CEL and/or flash the TCIL every time you manually over ride the shifts (Trans not responding to PCM commands - PCM will think it's some sort of erratic operation)

[sabtaj1]

Save yourself the headache. Although it would be very cool. Get a t-56. Thats what I want to do. As soon as I kill the new trans.

[BigCars4Ever]

I have done a little more research.

First this mod will only work when the tranny is set to drive. Any other position and the MLPS will not allow the tranny to shift.

Second, I will have complete control over the OD band, the shift pressure and the solenoids. The plan is to not engage the TC clutch. I would also propably blip the shift pressure temporarily on upshifts but not on downshifts. The upshifts I believe you will be on it while the downshifts you just trying to get into the gear you'll need out of the corner. This will keep corner entry smoother without a lot of tranny braking.

Third, the ECU has no idea what the tranny is doing. All communication is one way so I don't think there will be any engine managment issues.

I still have a lot of work before I can implement this. I need to learn how the pwm signal for the shift pressure works and the slew limitations of how quickly the pressure responds. The TC lockup solenoid is also pwm controlled. I need to understand how that works. I will spend the next couple of weeks gathering information. There are boxes on the market now that do this exact function but they also control the trans in all of the other gears and monitor the speed and throttle position for full automatic mode. This puts the price between $700 and $1200. I want something a lot simpler.

[Drock96Marquis]

Third, the ECU has no idea what the tranny is doing. All communication is one way so I don't think there will be any engine managment issues.
That's not true. The PCM will know immediately the trans is in the wrong gear because of the OSS output vs engine RPM.


A better idea would be to try and figure out a way to put the trans/PCM in OSC DRIVE mode and control it with external switches (the paddles)
This would allow the PCM to control the trans, but keeping it in the gear you specify (it will NOT change gears on it's own in OSC mode)
This would be a bit more involved, though....

[TooManyFords]

Thread hijack alert...


But remember, this mod is dangerous unless you find a way to disengage the OD band in manual 2nd.

Zack, I cannot find any documentation to substantiate this claim. Can you point me to it?

Thanks.

john

[Zack]

John, it is a fact that the OD band applies in 2nd..
You can feel it engage when you are sitting still and move the gear selector to 2.
It is for snowy or conditions with minimal traction from a standing start.

[BigCars4Ever]

Manual 2nd. My plan is to keep the selector in drive.

I still don't think the PCM will throw a code. If the PCM understood the RPM/MPH relationship then I should never hit the rev limiter but on occasion I hit the rev limiter in second when I'm really on it. I think the PCM will still attempt to shift and believe it is shifting but since it's control signals will be disconnected only my signals would control the trans.

Also, what is OSC mode? That's a term I don't recognize.

[TooManyFords]

John, it is a fact that the OD band applies in 2nd..
You can feel it engage when you are sitting still and move the gear selector to 2.
It is for snowy or conditions with minimal traction from a standing start.

So says you. I still want to see it documented somewhere. Seeing that the transmission is "electronic", I don't buy it. My 5-speed stick 07 mustang does the same thing in second gear and that is a function of the traction control and no second-gear band. I suspect you are confusing this with a traction control setting in the PCM.

But hey, that's why I want to see it documented.

John

[MarauderSM]

You guys really know your tranny stuff. I trust y'all and if it works you guys can guide me through it.

[BigCars4Ever]

Zack, I'm not sure we are all talking about the same thing here. Here are the control signals available:
http://www.p71interceptor.com/tranny/diagrams/electrical/external/bulkhead/9805.jpg

And here is the shift solenoid control table:
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">Gear
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">Shift Solenoid 1
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">Shift Solenoid 2
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">1st
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">ON
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">OFF
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">2nd
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">OFF
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">OFF
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">3rd
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">OFF
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">ON
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">4th
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">ON
</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">ON
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Now I always thought 4th was considered overdrive. Then the other control you have is the torque converter lock up clutch. From what I understand about our converters is the clutch is engaged by spring presure and disengaged by the solenoid. That's why the lock up shudder is so prevalent on these converters. As the springs age they lose the ability to apply good pressure to the clutch, the clutch overheats and the death spiral begins.

Now most of my info is hearsay and internet propaganda and the last 4r70w I rebuilt ended up going to a tranny shop to be put together correctly.

[94_302]

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=6999&highlight=paddle+shift

http://www.baumannengineering.com/tcs.htm

http://www.retrotekspeed.com/products/smart-shift/smart-shift.html

[BigCars4Ever]

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=6999&highlight=paddle+shift

http://www.baumannengineering.com/tcs.htm

http://www.retrotekspeed.com/products/smart-shift/smart-shift.html

Well that gives me a little more to think about. Still sounds like a fun project to me.

[TooManyFords]

Just FYI, I found the information that Zack speaks of on motorcitymarauders.com. It came from a Ford manual and it does indeed engage the OD band when shifted manually into second. However, it is still not clear that it does anything more than create excess inertia on the assembly because clearly 2nd and 4th cannot be engaged at the same time and would bind.

So, I guess I need Jerry to answer these questions.

John

[Tom Doan]

I'm interested, I drive around in 2nd. all the time,3000rpm = 50mph with a 3:27 rear and 1800 stall t/c. Tom

[BigCars4Ever]

A little more research. The ECU does know a little about the shifting. First it looks for a drop in rpm after a TC lock-up. The ECU also monitors the current of the shift solenoids. While all of this won't throw a light because it's not emmisions related it will certainly throw some powertrain codes. I'm not sure of the reprucusions of this however. More to come.

[cruzer]

Due to a neck injury, Ginny can't tolerate the 1-2 shift jerk very well. I have a DR chip flash with firmer shifts. As a result, for over 80,000 miles , I have accelerated in 2nd gear from about 80% of my stops. . Move shift lever to DR at 2,000 rpms, shifts normally to 3rd--at light throttle, I get an rpm drop at 42 mph, with another drop in rpm at 43-44 mph--I'm in od with converter lock. That's the way it works, don't ask me why. Tranny still strong--chirps at 1-2 and 2-3 shifts at WOT w/od "off"

[BigCars4Ever]

More info. I studied my shift tables and found out that at over 50% throttle shifts into 2nd, 3rd and 4th happen with the TC locked. 1st gear by default can not have the TC locked due to the valve body so the 2nd gear shift and the TC lock are set to happen simultaneous.

The TC lock may not be a lock-unlock condition. There are varrying states of lock depending on the EEC variables.

The pressure soleniod is a current controlled device that is in a feedback loop using the current through the coil and back emf created by the return spring as the feedback mechanism. The recommended control method is PWM but I suspect Ford is combining the PWM with variable frequency. This may be how they compensate for system resonance at different plunger positions.

More to come.

[Master]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"></TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Gauranteed the engine knows what the tranny is doing. Save yourself a lot of bother and put the T-56 in. Every day I am more and more thankful that I've gone this route. Not only is daily driving much more fun, but track days are once again a worthwhile venture. PLus you get the added benefit of an additional 30 rwhp by ditching the auto. Plus you get the weight savings. Plus you get better mileage. What else can I say? Improved driveability, functionality and economy. Go T-56 or go home! (I say this nicely, of course).

</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Raudermaster]

You do realize this paddle shifter option would be much easier to install and faster, rather than dumping a T-56 in. I'm sure a lot of us here would opt to put one in. I also bet money's another option, like me, I cannot afford even a used T-56 at this point now, let alone buying other parts to install it.

[fastcar]

Drove a VW GTI the other day with DSG. What a gearbox. Amazing 4 millisecond upshifts. I'd put one in my Marauder, if I could clutch it off the line. I don't like the computerized off the line engagement.

It had paddle shifters on the steering wheel. It's really amazing.

fastcar:burnout:

[Aren Jay]

Thing is with these, unless you have to use them, ie no auto option. You don't or you don't 99% of the time. It is like turning your tunes off at the drive through. You drive away and 5 minutes from your garage you realise your tunes are not on and you catch one song.

[jimlam56]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"></TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Gauranteed the engine knows what the tranny is doing. Save yourself a lot of bother and put the T-56 in. Every day I am more and more thankful that I've gone this route. Not only is daily driving much more fun, but track days are once again a worthwhile venture. PLus you get the added benefit of an additional 30 rwhp by ditching the auto. Plus you get the weight savings. Plus you get better mileage. What else can I say? Improved driveability, functionality and economy. Go T-56 or go home! (I say this nicely, of course).


</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



Did you ever get your cruise control to work?

[KillJoy]

I just got done watching Horsepower TV.

They mentioned THIS (http://www.retrotekspeed.com/products/smart-shift/smart-shift-stand-alone/smart-shift.html) at the end of the show. I see a link to the company was listed above.

Has any more come of this other than talk????

KillJoy

[marauder307]

With my Pontiac, I already have the paddle shifter option (Grand Prix GXP). The 4-spd auto in the Poncho shifts a bit mushy, IMO, when using the manual mode, and I think the computer is programmed to upshift anyway if it remains too long in one gear. I don't use it much...feels more efficient to just leave it in auto mode and go from there.

But the paddles look and feel really cool...

Y'know, if you're casting around for a cool techno-thingy to put on the Marauder, how about trying to graft a GM Heads-Up Display onto one? I love the HUD in the GP...it's even got a stealth mode where you can turn off all the dash lighting and run on the HUD alone. Kinda nice at night. It doesn't turn off the radio or info center lighting though. I remember thinking---back when I still had my MM---how cool it would be if somebody in the aftermarket would figure out a generic broad-spectrum kinda thing for HUDs on other platforms besides GM. You could break a lot of ground there...untapped market, and all that sorta stuff.

Just thinking out loud...

[Motorhead350]

I have been driving daddys M6 with the paddle shifters and let me tell you the floor shifter is a lot more responsive. Maybe this is just BMWs way of things and other companies can make a better shifter. When I use the shifters around a corner it's almost not even worth it. I guess you really have to be into shifting if you wanna put these on your car. I would say try a car with the shifters for a day or so and decide if you even like them.... just rent something or go to some event. I know it sounds stupid, but give it a try before you put all of this effort and money into such a project.

I say from my experience it is not worth it unless you can get the shifters to react as good as a normal floor shifter.

[MarauderSM]

Again, at least you have an option.

And it works with the gearvendors.

[BigCars4Ever]

I know it won't be super responsive. My wifes Pacifica has autostick and it's not super fast but at least it shifts when you want. I hate when in a slow turn the trans hits 2nd and the ass end hops. I haven't put any time into this lately cause Halloween is comming and thats my holiday. I'm finishing a few last minute props for this year. Hopefully soon I'll have time to paly with this again.

[Taemian]

With my Pontiac, I already have the paddle shifter option (Grand Prix GXP). The 4-spd auto in the Poncho shifts a bit mushy, IMO, when using the manual mode, and I think the computer is programmed to upshift anyway if it remains too long in one gear. I don't use it much...feels more efficient to just leave it in auto mode and go from there.

But the paddles look and feel really cool...

Y'know, if you're casting around for a cool techno-thingy to put on the Marauder, how about trying to graft a GM Heads-Up Display onto one? I love the HUD in the GP...it's even got a stealth mode where you can turn off all the dash lighting and run on the HUD alone. Kinda nice at night. It doesn't turn off the radio or info center lighting though. I remember thinking---back when I still had my MM---how cool it would be if somebody in the aftermarket would figure out a generic broad-spectrum kinda thing for HUDs on other platforms besides GM. You could break a lot of ground there...untapped market, and all that sorta stuff.

Just thinking out loud...

There is such a company, and such a device. I had an aftermarket HUD in a previous CVPI, paid about $350 USD for it. Not nearly the same as you'd think, and still required you to refocus on the numbers rather than look "through" the windshield as if they were posted in front of the vehicle. My previous HUD experience was in a military application, and it was seamless. In automotovie, I think I first saw it in an older Nissan Maxima. Again, the distance was a factor...you still had to refocus between looking down the road, and looking at the spot on the windshield where the numbers were posted. I had hoped it would look like it was "floating" out in front, but the silverish patch you needed to put on the windshield to get the reflection from the projection unit on the dash was too much of a contrast for your eye NOT to refocus. Imagine having a fingerprint on the inside of the glass...you have to refocus to see it...so my experience was not positive in the automotive area.