The Verdict is in on my Engine

[MarauderTJA]

I suspected valve train issues and I was right. I broke another Secondary Exhaust Cam Sprocket. Bottom end is fine. Before SSHS6 I broke the drivers side and this time the passenger side. When I tore the engine down last year I replaced all sprockets with fresh Cobra parts. Raced the car for an 11.3 run in March, drive it every day and then at SSHS7 after on the 3rd run it happens again.

With my high HP engine and there not being any other D1SC Marauders out there other than one (and he,Lou, who lives near me and is not on the board) he also broke a secondary exhaust cam sproket too this year. Recently he replaced them all with large billet sprockets and cryo treated secondary sprokets. But he has only run the car a few times and that was at SSHS7.

I will contacting several experts on this issue. I think the problem is several fold. My high HP D1SC Procharger system is not producing enough down low torque for my heavy, daily street driven car for drag racing. Plus we have a small displacement engine. As a result I think over time and with drag racing coming hard out of the hole the lack of torque is feeding back into the motor and then eventually it takes its toll on the valve train and bang, broken sprocket and bent valves etc. Marty's race car is lightened and he runs a Procharger Racing F1R which is completely different than a D1SC.

When I was running 475 RWHP I never had a problem at all. But with any car and high HP application you encounter additional problems along the way. When you blaze a trail in this area, these are issues you have to deal with. After my research, I may be switching out to the Trilogy Twin Screw to which my motor can handle the high boost and God knows that puppie puts out insane torque.

What do you guys think???

[magindat]

Um, I got a Procharger cuz of you! Don't leave us hangin'!

Sorry to hear it's so much work for such a small part.

Good luck with the fix AND your decision!!!

[MarauderTJA]

Um, I got a Procharger cuz of you! Don't leave us hangin'!

Sorry to hear it's so much work for such a small part.

Good luck with the fix AND your decision!!!

The Procharger set up is a great system. But when you get in the HP world I'm at with 18 lbs of boost and a 100 shot of nitrous things are "somewhat" different. Yeah, breaking a $20. part that will cost more than $1K sucks.

After my research I'll see what happens. Maybe the hardened, billet sprockets will be the cure

[Darrin]

Very sorry to hear about this TOm.

Darrin

[Raudermaster]

Hang in there buddy! Get her fixed. Are you going to go with cryo treated ones as well?

[sailsmen]

Do you think the belt tensioner broke because of the valve train breakage?

Are other high HP Entechs experiencing this failure?

If not what is different about your set up?

Did you over rev during the burn out or down the track?

I had an XR4Ti with a 2.3L turbo Ford. We added an intercooler. The intercooler was shipped w/o end caps. My mech shook it to try to dislodge any mfg debris.

The motor siezed after start up. Upon break down the crank was bent and the iron block was cracked. A valve was bent.

The cause an 1/8" thick pinky nail size piece of metal was sucked into the cylinder from the intercooler.

What is interesting is that the strongest parts broke and the weakest did not. Probably because the strongest are under the most load.

We got a short block from Ford that my mechanic broke down and reassembled. Good thing he did the ring gaps were all in a row.

She would out run a 944S when we had her finished.:D

[FordNut]

I used new OEM gears/sprockets but had them cryo-REM treated.

I haven't heard of anybody else having the problems you're having. Sorry to hear it.

I think the D1SC is a good blower, but when you're pushing the limits you can count on belt and tensioner problems. The drive belt setup is one of thing I admire about the Trilogy (Eaton or TS) setup.

I just want my car to be an 11-second daily driver that I don't have to work on.

[MarauderTJA]

I used new OEM gears/sprockets but had them cryo-REM treated.

I haven't heard of anybody else having the problems you're having. Sorry to hear it.

I think the D1SC is a good blower, but when you're pushing the limits you can count on belt and tensioner problems. The drive belt setup is one of thing I admire about the Trilogy (Eaton or TS) setup.

I just want my car to be an 11-second daily driver that I don't have to work on.

Part of the problem Brian is no one else is making that kind of power with our cars for street driving AND drag racing with the D1SC. BTW my tensioner did not break as thought. I have not had any belt problems once I got the right combination on the pulley's squared away. And it drove on the street just great with the combination I have. But I am thinking it may be a torque issue after prolonged stress on the valve train, ie. sprockets. Many, many calls and research to do here.

[KillJoy]

Tom that just SUCKS!!!

At least the bottom end is okay!!

Get it fixed.... run a 10 :D

:up:

KillJoy

[MarauderTJA]

Tom that just SUCKS!!!

At least the bottom end is okay!!

Get it fixed.... run a 10 :D

:up:

KillJoy

Thanks Steve. Oh, yeah my baby will be running in the 10's.:beer:

[Dennis Reinhart]

Tom I am glad the bottom end is not hurt, I have never heard or seen the issue you have had with the gears, but I am sure you will get this resolved.

[Cobra25]

No matter what you choose to do, weather it is a Twin Screw Trilogy or fixing the ProCharger set up, as Long as your Happy that is all that counts.

[MarauderTJA]

No matter what you choose to do, weather it is a Twin Screw Trilogy or fixing the ProCharger set up, as Long as your Happy that is all that counts.

Doing my research and I will get this resolved. Trouble is I am in an area where no one has been before making it a difficult task.

[Cobra25]

Just take your time , I'm sure you'll find the answer out their somewhere.
Doing my research and I will get this resolved. Trouble is I am in an area where no one has been before making it a difficult task.

[Richy04]

Its most likely the drag of the supercharger on the valvetrain and chains. Look at your guides and tensioners, you will see loading marks or chafing where the supercharger slows the lower half of the motor down, the chains then suddenly tension and the inertia from the top of the motor snaps back like a whip and screws up the sprockets. Forged and heavily worked 32v motors already have severe stresses on them like triple springs, 4 valves per cylinder, 4 cams turning, a high volume pump.. All of this stresses the valvetrain to the breaking point, add a huffer and it becomes even worse, especially when this stuff tries to turn with 15lbs of boost and the dead weight of a turbine it must spin all from one point, the bottom of the motor where the stress occurs is now fighting with the beefed up top and the weak link in the chain is the sprockets..

Also, when going forward (and much faster than stock) look at the introduced sideloading (all components trying to go back towards the driver also slows down the valve train..

This is why people use cam buttons in Chevy smallblocks, for this very reason but I am bringing it up here to demonstrate what is happening.. Add all of these factors together and this is what is going on..

Good luck and do look at the chains, guides, tensioners and see if they are showing the stress I mentioned.

[Marauderjack]

I may be switching out to the Trilogy Twin Screw to which my motor can handle the high boost and God knows that puppie puts out insane torque.

What do you guys think???

Tom.....

How can switching to another "BOOSTER" change the valve train stress???:confused:

Good Luck with whatever you do!!:beer:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[sailsmen]

Has Marty had any sprocket issues?

[MarauderTJA]

Tom.....

How can switching to another "BOOSTER" change the valve train stress???:confused:

Good Luck with whatever you do!!:beer:

Marauderjack:burnout:

Jack, basically I am told that the change to a roots S/C gets the car moving easier (higher torque) taking valve train load off the engine. This has nothing to do with lower horsepower applications (420-475 RWHP) with a centrifugal blower, but is effected when you are up in the 700 RWHP range due to the small displacement engine. Still researching this extensively. Jury is out.

Billy, no Marty has not had any problems. But bear in mind his car is a race only car and doesn't run it often. I drive mine every day on the street and went a year and several hard track runs before this happened again. Most of the top Ford high performance mechanics I have spoken to are at a total loss on why this is happening and have no answer.

[Zack]

Jack, basically I am told that the change to a roots S/C gets the car moving easier (higher torque) taking valve train load off the engine. This has nothing to do with lower horsepower applications (420-475 RWHP) with a centrifugal blower, but is effected when you are up in the 700 RWHP range due to the small displacement engine. Still researching this extensively. Jury is out.

Billy, no Marty has not had any problems. But bear in mind his car is a race only car and doesn't run it often. I drive mine every day on the street and went a year and several hard track runs before this happened again. Most of the top Ford high performance mechanics I have spoken to are at a total loss on why this is happening and have no answer.


Tom, did you read that^^^^?
Roots SC gets the car moving easier?
So 500+ ft/lbs at 3000 rpm in conjunction with sticky tires is easier than 300+ ft/lbs with the Procharger?

You lost me!

[MarauderTJA]

My point is simply that with higher torque numbers the heavy car (mass) will move from the start much easier than a lower torque number to move the same weight. Something is straining the valve train for the sprockets to break. But only the secondary exhaust cam sprockets, no others. Cannot find out yet why? I have ordered primary billet sprockets and cryo-rem treated secondaries which may cure the problem.

[Zack]

Listen to John, he seems to be batting 1000 on engine problems lately.

There are tens of thousands of Mustangs running around on stock cam gears without an issue, regardless of weight.

[MarauderTJA]

Listen to John, he seems to be batting 1000 on engine problems lately.

There are tens of thousands of Mustangs running around on stock cam gears without an issue, regardless of weight.

Mustangs way far less than Marauders. That is my point, no (few) problems with Mustang cam sprockets, why me....weight has to be an issue. Unless someone sends me in another direction....

[Zack]

Its not weight related, period.
Look elsewhere!

[MarauderTJA]

Its not weight related, period.
Look elsewhere!

I am doing that as well. Just got off the phone with Al Papitto. He is at a loss as well. But he does have access to degree spec billet cam sprockets (both primary & secondary) made for 9000 rpm modular 4.6 motors. Those will be going in this time.

[MarauderTJA]

The SAGA continues. It appears from several credible sources that it may be cams I am using. They are getting changed out for sure plus I will be adding billet primary and secondary sprockets.

[Zack]

Buy the GT Supercar Cams.
Just picked them up NEW from Ford for $430 shipped :up:

[TooManyFords]

I seriously doubt that the actual grind of the cam has anything to do with this problem Tom. No, you should have it tore down and look for an oiling or bearing problem.

And one more question, when you had the cams done did you change anything else on the heads? Were the valves replaced? (checking to see if maybe you've got a guide seizing on the stem issue) You'd have to pull all the valves to check to see if any are galled to know for sure.

(And Zack, thanks for the props!)

John

[MarauderTJA]

I seriously doubt that the actual grind of the cam has anything to do with this problem Tom. No, you should have it tore down and look for an oiling or bearing problem.

And one more question, when you had the cams done did you change anything else on the heads? Were the valves replaced? (checking to see if maybe you've got a guide seizing on the stem issue) You'd have to pull all the valves to check to see if any are galled to know for sure.

(And Zack, thanks for the props!)

John

I will be breaking everything down this week. I had Ferrera SS exhaust valves. The heads were cleaned up thats all. I'll know better once I get everything apart. I will probaly be going with Comp Cams. Thanks John for your positive advice. I do not believe there are any oil or bearing problems At least there ere nbot the last time. Both times it was exhaust cams. Maybe a flaw in these Crower cams. Has happened before. Crower told me they would replace the cams for free. I don't think so.

[MarauderTJA]

Buy the GT Supercar Cams.
Just picked them up NEW from Ford for $430 shipped :up:

Are they 10MM bolts on 12 MM?

[Seneca]

Screw it Tom!. :D Good luck on whatever your choice is

[FordNut]

Check the cam springs closely. I understand the Comps are beehive but the Manley and Crower are not. That could result in coil bind problems or possibly even harmonic vibrations or some such nonsense.

[MarauderTJA]

Check the cam springs closely. I understand the Comps are beehive but the Manley and Crower are not. That could result in coil bind problems or possibly even harmonic vibrations or some such nonsense.

There does not seem to be anything wrong with the springs at first look.
Everything will be repalced on the valve train. But two exhaust cams (one on each bank) having the same problem is seriously suspect at least. They are history.

[Zack]

Are they 10MM bolts on 12 MM?

They will work, they have 450 lift and are cheap with awesome idle.
Thats all you need to know :up:
Besides, Lidio just used a set in his recent Kenne Bell build.