Car got fixed...wallet got emptied [Archive]

hot-rauder

11-28-2007, 08:42 AM

captain

11-28-2007, 08:53 AM

Kinda sounds like the pricing is inline with the others... just wonder if the diagnosis was correct. Did it stop doing the bad? Our local dealership charges a fair price...90 bucks an hour. They just lie about whats wrong and how to proceed. The dealership I use in the cities charges 110 an hour but they tell you the truth. And give options. Priceless. Tranny flush and filter $275. Last Monday. I need a raise!!

racorcey

11-28-2007, 08:53 AM

now im sorry but i feel i got screwed on this "deal" but i have to pay it.

my car was chugging and shuddering in 4th gear. i took it to my local LM dealer and they said it was the #3 coil pack and there was water in it. also my plugs were hand tight and had water in them. NO ONE has been under the hood of my car ever since i bought it. the dealer i bought it from however put a new belt on it when i bought it and changed the stuck thermostat when it got stuck only 2 weeks after owning the car.

$380!!!! for 1 coil pack and8 plugs! are you kidding me! they said it would only be $230 for just the coil.... $40 plugs... $110 to instal them. please!

well it is warranteed for 12 months 12,00 miles so i wont complain too much.
am i wrong to be upset? even a little?

Wow - I hope your dealer is a public company. I need to invest in them for shear profit(s).

Let's see....$230 for a $85 list coil; gave you a break on the plugs, charging you only $40 for $25 worth; and finally labor - 20 minutes to put the plugs in (that's all it takes me on a bad day), so that's a labor rate of $330/hour. You're lucky they didn't charge you a disposal fee!

Sorry to hear "you was took."

chader

11-28-2007, 09:27 AM

Wow - I hope your dealer is a public company. I need to invest in them for shear profit(s).

Let's see....$230 for a $85 list coil; gave you a break on the plugs, charging you only $40 for $25 worth; and finally labor - 20 minutes to put the plugs in (that's all it takes me on a bad day), so that's a labor rate of $330/hour. You're lucky they didn't charge you a disposal fee!

Sorry to hear "you was took."
if you could do it yourself you should ....what makes you think people work for free..it is so easy to look back and have remorse.No one was took...if you were to check around that is normal price to pay to have someone do this type of repair....IMO you should keep quiet if you don't know the field,which is aparent.

Local Boy

11-28-2007, 09:43 AM

Dealerships will do that to you...Sorry

Summit has after market (Accel) coils (25% more spark) for $27 bucks a piece...

That's how we all learn...Better luck next time...

ALOHA

RR|Suki

11-28-2007, 10:15 AM

yeah it's too bad dealers charge such huge mark ups... maybe if they were more reasonable, they'd make more on volume... maybe not, either way, learn to do work yourself, and next time just bypass the dealer.

SID210SA

11-28-2007, 10:47 AM

Tranny flush and filter $275. Last Monday. I need a raise!!

I didnt think you needed a new filter in the tranny....isnt it supposed to be cleanable?

wchain

11-28-2007, 10:54 AM

What? No "Misc Shop Supplies" Charge?

I'm surprised your dealer called it a coil pack, considering we dont have packs, we have Coil on Plug.

Wow.

How was there water in the coil well if you have a cover over it?

By the way, last time I checked, Ignition Coils are covered by the 8 year, 80,000 mile Emissions Warranty......

wchain

11-28-2007, 10:55 AM

I didnt think you needed a new filter in the tranny....isnt it supposed to be cleanable?

No....youre thinking about screens. We have filters.

ImpalaSlayer

11-28-2007, 11:02 AM

No....youre thinking about screens. We have filters.

thanks for that, planned on doing it this weekend and was just gona clean the screen. guess i gota pick up a filter.

didnt mean to hijack this, continue :D

Zack

11-28-2007, 11:08 AM

Good info Wes, thanks!

jdando

11-28-2007, 11:37 AM

am i wrong to be upset? even a little?

Glad the car is fixed and running correctly.

I guess you can be upset, or a little upset. Probably will not do any good. Maintenance is not cheap, alternators for these bad boys are $370:depress: for the part alone.

jeremy

racorcey

11-28-2007, 12:02 PM

if you could do it yourself you should ....what makes you think people work for free..it is so easy to look back and have remorse.No one was took...if you were to check around that is normal price to pay to have someone do this type of repair....IMO you should keep quiet if you don't know the field,which is aparent.

You're right on one point - and one point only - people don't work for free. You're dead wrong on the rest. I can't keep quiet when I see someone being taken advantage of. While not all dealers are crooks certainly, if they suspect, in the least, that someone doesn't have specific knowlege of the repair(s) to be made, they look at you as free $$. And that's what happened here, with all due respect to the original poster of this thread (hot-rauder, I think).

How you can even think about justifying a part at 3 times its price, or labor at 3 times what its worth evades me. These are NOT normal prices - execpt from those dealers who are under pressure to maximize profits at the expense of unsuspecting customers.

And finally, before accusing someone of not knowing what they're talking about, try asking that person first what they might know about or have to do with the automotive field. For the record, besides being an electrical engineer, I help a local speed shop owner manage his business affairs. I may not be able to tell you what sheet metal costs that day, but I can tell you pretty much to the penny what engine parts cost - stock or otherwise.

I'm not going to start any arguments here, chader, but I'm also not going to stand by and be accused of speaking without some knowledge of the subject at hand, especially from someone who seems to be calling the kettle black.

RF Overlord

11-28-2007, 12:03 PM

Tranny flush and filter $275. $275 for a transmission flush and a filter?! :eek: That's outrageous. The filter is $25 and 15 quarts of Mercon V is $60. Using a T-Tech fluid exchange machine it's a one-hour job at most, including dropping the pan.

VAmarauder03

11-28-2007, 12:14 PM

Let's see....$230 for a $85 list coil; gave you a break on the plugs, charging you only $40 for $25 worth; and finally labor - 20 minutes to put the plugs in (that's all it takes me on a bad day), so that's a labor rate of $330/hour. You're lucky they didn't charge you a disposal fee!

Sorry to hear "you was took."

not sure if i misunderstood what your saying or not, but just a small tidbit of info, just cuz it takes you 20 minutes to do plugs isnt what it cost at a dealer, dealers have books with standard flat rate times for repairs and if the book says it pays 3 hours then thats what you pay for, 3 hours of labor, even if the tech only takes 20 minutes to put them in...also there should have been a diagnostic charge in that price somewhere. but back to my point, technicians cant make money if they only get payed the amount of time it takes to do the job, hence the flat rate system. Each job pays a certain amount no matter how fast or slow we are at doing that job, it can either make or break you. Can some dealers be a bunch of crooks? yes, but at the same time we spend many years learning this trade and making sure we know what we are doing, and most people cant fix their car therefore they pay us to do it, (not to sound harsh but) if they cant fix it they come to us and want us to, and we dont work for free. more often than not its the technician not the writer, the service writer or the dealer doesnt diagnose the problem, a tech does and he is the one that reports back to the writer, most the time a writer has no clue whats goin on other than what the tech tells him. A good tech however does not need to rip anyone off he can turn the hours he needs to make ends meet without scamming people.

Sorry you feel like you got took but plugs and a coil isnt a difficult job next time i would recommend doing it yourself to save some money. Just get it diagnosed and decline the work.

As far as water being in the coil and that not being possible, the seal around the cover can be torn or misaligned and allow water to leak in there. the more common problem(a lot of Lincoln LS's had this problem) is that the valve cover gasket leaks and it allows oil to get in there....

SID210SA

11-28-2007, 12:31 PM

No....youre thinking about screens. We have filters.

Yeah...thats what I was thinking of.....

racorcey

11-28-2007, 12:33 PM

not sure if i misunderstood what your saying or not, but just a small tidbit of info, just cuz it takes you 20 minutes to do plugs isnt what it cost at a dealer, dealers have books with standard flat rate times for repairs and if the book says it pays 3 hours then thats what you pay for, 3 hours of labor, even if the tech only takes 20 minutes to put them in...also there should have been a diagnostic charge in that price somewhere. but back to my point, technicians cant make money if they only get payed the amount of time it takes to do the job, hence the flat rate system. Each job pays a certain amount no matter how fast or slow we are at doing that job, it can either make or break you. Can some dealers be a bunch of crooks? yes, but at the same time we spend many years learning this trade and making sure we know what we are doing, and most people cant fix their car therefore they pay us to do it, (not to sound harsh but) if they cant fix it they come to us and want us to, and we dont work for free. more often than not its the technician not the writer, the service writer or the dealer doesnt diagnose the problem, a tech does and he is the one that reports back to the writer, most the time a writer has no clue whats goin on other than what the tech tells him. A good tech however does not need to rip anyone off he can turn the hours he needs to make ends meet without scamming people....

I understand fully the difference between the small guy and the bigger dealers. Of course training cost money. No argument there. But you just brought up a big bone of contension here - the infamous book rate. As you likely know already, the factory book rate is not the same as the aftermarket book rate. Ford, GM, etc., are pretty damned close on what it takes to do warranty work, except that they shave it a little too close for comfort, and sometimes even cheat - I know you can only agree with that. The factory ain't stupid - they know from experience what mechanics can and do do. On the other side of the coin, I know too many mechanics that can easily and handily beat the rates given for out-of-warranty work. It's not a 100% sure thing, of course, but it's done too many times.

Book rate, smook rate. Most non-car people I know would prefer to pay the "fair" rate - that is, what it actually took in time. If the mechanic beats the time, I gain; if it takes longer, the mechanic isn't at the losing end. Of course, this way is also ripe for rip-off artists, so caveat-emptor. Point is, book rate is just another way of fitting more work in in a day while maximizing $$ unfairly for the customer.

In this particular case, the diagnosis takes less than 5 minutes, and if I can change plugs in 20 minutes, a great mechanic can do it somewhat faster. Even factoring in small details, our friend here paid far in excess of what the job was worth. Period.

chader

11-28-2007, 12:45 PM

I to am not going to start an argument...it is very aparent how knowledgable a person is when they have to explain how knowledgable they are.PS nice post VAmarauder..was well put....

VAmarauder03

11-28-2007, 12:56 PM

Id rather not add any fuel to the fire so all i will say is lets agree to disagree(only on certain parts, others we can just agree:P) the point is we can ***** allllll we want but the system isnt going to change...its been this way for a VERY long time and likely will not change, but its also how a certain group of us make our living by being good at what we do. The flat rate time is usually about what it would take your average person to do a job for the first time. Just becuase im faster or better it means i should be payed less? I garuntee if we got payed for whatever time it took us to do the job, we would be taking our sweet time doing it, and it would wind up costing the same. But with flat rate we have incentive to get a job done as quickly as possibly and fix it right the first time around(if we dont its a come back and is done for free, if you dont have the time to do it right the first time you have time to do it a second time) wich in turn gets you your car back as fast as possible causing you to be inconvenienced for a lesser amount of time. Sounds like a win win to me?

A job is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it...as long as people out there are paying for it then thats what its worth.

Raudermaster

11-28-2007, 12:56 PM

That sucks Adam. What F/L/M dealer did you bring it too? Glad to hear the MM is running good again though.

racorcey

11-28-2007, 01:04 PM

I to am not going to start an argument...it is very aparent how knowledgable a person is when they have to explain how knowledgable they are.PS nice post VAmarauder..was well put....

And it's apparent you really want the last word. If that's your real goal, bless you, my son.

P.S. Get some spelling lessons too....

martyo

11-28-2007, 01:39 PM

You should just go ahead and put a Turbo 400 in it.

captain

11-28-2007, 01:43 PM

Does any one in here own and operate a business?

cyclopsram

11-28-2007, 01:47 PM

Wow, here in VT, labor at a regular repair shop is $55 and the Ford Dealer gets $65. The oil change with a Ford Filter and Ford Semi Synthetic oil is $20. Two wiper blades installed $20. and a free car wash with all service...hand wash by the way...Plus I get 25% off on all repair parts I buy and install myself...all this whether or not I buy my cars there...The West Coast guys get ripped off...for sure. The VT State Police are able to buy COPs (aftermarket) for $28 ea and switched because they thought the Ford ones were too expensive at $40 with no increased life... Cars are run to 140000 miles in 4 years..and sold at auction...in good running condition... can't say as much for the rust, though....so the weather is really crummy for nice rides... Today was 18 degrees with ice and snow showers and the salt trucks got in overtime..

racorcey

11-28-2007, 01:51 PM

Today was 18 degrees with ice and snow showers and the salt trucks got in overtime..

Yeah - and make sure you keep that stuff north of the PA border. We're not ready for it yet down here.:)

- Randy

Paul T. Casey

11-28-2007, 01:52 PM

[QUOTE=wchain;555750]

How was there water in the coil well if you have a cover over it?

QUOTE]

Not so uncommon a problem for the daily drivers. On some (including mine) the rear seals on the coil covers (where the wires go in) leave a lot to be desired. Drive in the rain a few times, and water gets in. I had issues on the right side, long time ago, even posted about it here. Dealer applied plenty of sealant when he put the cover back on. I did the same when I took them off. No troubles since.

hot-rauder

11-28-2007, 02:15 PM

That sucks Adam. What F/L/M dealer did you bring it too? Glad to hear the MM is running good again though.

Leominster L/M....it is 1.23 miles from my house. it stinks but i will say that the car just feels faster now.

[quote=wchain;555750]

How was there water in the coil well if you have a cover over it?

QUOTE]

Not so uncommon a problem for the daily drivers. On some (including mine) the rear seals on the coil covers (where the wires go in) leave a lot to be desired. Drive in the rain a few times, and water gets in. I had issues on the right side, long time ago, even posted about it here. Dealer applied plenty of sealant when he put the cover back on. I did the same when I took them off. No troubles since.

we have had A LOT lot of moisture in New Enland these past few weeks. foggy everyday and drizzling the rest of the day. mine is a daily driver. i put 9k miles on it in 7 months... now i have stared a 250 milesper week routine getting to work and beack.... imnot shocked this happened.

and to end all arguements... I DO know how to do this and fix it myself. i DO NOT have the time to do it nor can i give myself a 12month/ 12,000 mile warrantee on any of my garage work. i have big bills to pay and with no way to work, it means no money. paying the dealer to fix my car sucks but hey, we all need a ride to work. thank god my brother lent me his truck for the day so i could go to work and make the money to fix the car.

VAmarauder03

11-28-2007, 02:20 PM

And it's apparent you really want the last word. If that's your real goal, bless you, my son.

P.S. Get some spelling lessons too....

All I was trying to do was explain the way we make our money, not start an argument or get the last word, im sorry that you seem to think otherwise, I hope you and you unwarranted post makes you sleep better at night...I did not want the last word I was merely trying to explain in greater detail of how the business runs, i apologize if you disagree or think my post was an attempt to throw stones or anything of the sort...i also apologize that i may have misspelled a word or two, were all not perfect. and just to make it clear for those of you who have trouble understanding someones good intentions or just like to throw stones when none have been thrown first, my intention was to provide a view from the otherside of the story, it was to provide insight into the world of automotive technicians. Not call you wrong or say your complaint was unwarranted just merely trying to put some info out there(that is what this forum is for isnt it?, but since you didnt grasp that i guess ill just be an ******* about it and say if people dont like paying to have their cars fixed then learn how to diagnose and fix it their self and until they do that, go out side wipe your feelings off and come back in...good day to you all

p.s. this is not saying anyone cant fix their car its just a general statement sorry if its misinterpreted

DeepSea117

11-28-2007, 04:11 PM

All I was trying to do was explain the way we make our money, not start an argument or get the last word...

By the looks of racorcey's response, I don't think he was referring to you. Just trying to ease it up :)

carfixer

11-28-2007, 07:36 PM

VA, don't try to convince people. Some of them think dealer techs can diagnose every concern in 5 minutes and should do it for free. They think the parts should be sold to the customer at cost. The parts counter guy doesn't need to eat, neither does the truck driver that delivered it to the dealer or the inventory guy or shipping and receiving guy. They think they should only pay for the time the tech actually spends under the hood. The rest of the time they should do for free, such as road tests, fetching parts, preparing estimates... They don't believe in Motors/Chilton publications for suggested labor charge, which is the standard across the country, unless it is in their favor. How many times did you charge a customer 1 hour for a diag that took 3 hours because the "book" only allows 1 hour. They think a dealer tech should make just enough money to pay for the tools to diag and repair his car. He should get a second job to buy food and pay his mortgage. How much do you have in tools? How much is the IDS you use to diag a driveability concern? How much did it cost you for days missed at the shop to go to the training center to learn how to diag and repair the latest technology? How much did it cost the dealership? How much do you have to pay a service advisor? How much for the cashier? How about the van driver that shuttles the customers home? How much for the van? How about the multi-thousand dollar electric bill for the shop alone? Computer system and maintenance for the shop? They believe the owner of the dealership shouldn't get any return on the millions he invested in creating a place that people can purchase and repair cars.

I could go on and on. Let me tell you that the profit margin for a shop in a big city charging under $100 an hour is slim to none.

You get what you pay for.
Take a chance and bring it to the "cheap" guy. After he's whipped every part at it (at the expense of the customer) that didn't fix it, take another day off from work and take it to the dealer. They'll fix it.

Back on topic. Scan your bill and post it so we can dissect it for you. We'll see if you were treated fairly.

DeepSea117

11-28-2007, 08:28 PM

My dealer effs up my warranty repairs! :D

racorcey

11-28-2007, 09:16 PM

All I was trying to do was explain the way we make our money, not start an argument or get the last word, im sorry that you seem to think otherwise, I hope you and you unwarranted post makes you sleep better at night...I did not want the last word I was merely trying to explain in greater detail of how the business runs, i apologize if you disagree or think my post was an attempt to throw stones or anything of the sort...i also apologize that i may have misspelled a word or two, were all not perfect. and just to make it clear for those of you who have trouble understanding someones good intentions or just like to throw stones when none have been thrown first, my intention was to provide a view from the otherside of the story, it was to provide insight into the world of automotive technicians. Not call you wrong or say your complaint was unwarranted just merely trying to put some info out there(that is what this forum is for isnt it?, but since you didnt grasp that i guess ill just be an ******* about it and say if people dont like paying to have their cars fixed then learn how to diagnose and fix it their self and until they do that, go out side wipe your feelings off and come back in...good day to you all

p.s. this is not saying anyone cant fix their car its just a general statement sorry if its misinterpreted

VaMarauder....I don't have a misunderstanding with you or a complaint about your spelling. My response was to Chader. While I may disagree with some of your opinion, at least you state it in logical, reasonable terms. You didn't come straight out and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about (as Chader did), you simply have a difference of opinion, spoken in plain English. I respect that. I don't respect Chader's open sarcasm. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but that doesn't mean I have to accept his choice of poor wording. One can certainly discuss things here gentlemanly, as you have already demonstrated.

- Randy

larryo340

11-28-2007, 09:52 PM

VA, don't try to convince people. Some of them think dealer techs can diagnose every concern in 5 minutes and should do it for free. They think the parts should be sold to the customer at cost. The parts counter guy doesn't need to eat, neither does the truck driver that delivered it to the dealer or the inventory guy or shipping and receiving guy. They think they should only pay for the time the tech actually spends under the hood. The rest of the time they should do for free, such as road tests, fetching parts, preparing estimates... They don't believe in Motors/Chilton publications for suggested labor charge, which is the standard across the country, unless it is in their favor. How many times did you charge a customer 1 hour for a diag that took 3 hours because the "book" only allows 1 hour. They think a dealer tech should make just enough money to pay for the tools to diag and repair his car. He should get a second job to buy food and pay his mortgage. How much do you have in tools? How much is the IDS you use to diag a driveability concern? How much did it cost you for days missed at the shop to go to the training center to learn how to diag and repair the latest technology? How much did it cost the dealership? How much do you have to pay a service advisor? How much for the cashier? How about the van driver that shuttles the customers home? How much for the van? How about the multi-thousand dollar electric bill for the shop alone? Computer system and maintenance for the shop? They believe the owner of the dealership shouldn't get any return on the millions he invested in creating a place that people can purchase and repair cars.

I could go on and on. Let me tell you that the profit margin for a shop in a big city charging under $100 an hour is slim to none.

You get what you pay for.
Take a chance and bring it to the "cheap" guy. After he's whipped every part at it (at the expense of the customer) that didn't fix it, take another day off from work and take it to the dealer. They'll fix it.
You forgot to add that after the customer was bled dry from the "Their" mechanic, most of them are not happy with any price given by the dealer to fix it.

Back on topic. Scan your bill and post it so we can dissect it for you. We'll see if you were treated fairly.

Extremely well said :up:

Now for something :Offtopic:, but very close to the same concept.
I wonder if most people are aware that a Dentist and most doctors work with a similar book to bill the insurance company if you have insurance, but the sky's the limit with what they tell you it will cost you out of pocket over and above the insurance.
Let the flames begin :D

CRUZTAKER

11-28-2007, 09:58 PM

This is probably an awesome thread....trouble is I can't see it.

Who did this to me!!!!

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/6/2/6/ig-list.jpg

Oh yeah...Stevo.:D

Raudermaster

11-28-2007, 10:03 PM

LOL. Priceless.

VAmarauder03

11-28-2007, 10:32 PM

VaMarauder....I don't have a misunderstanding with you or a complaint about your spelling. My response was to Chader. While I may disagree with some of your opinion, at least you state it in logical, reasonable terms. You didn't come straight out and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about (as Chader did), you simply have a difference of opinion, spoken in plain English. I respect that. I don't respect Chader's open sarcasm. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but that doesn't mean I have to accept his choice of poor wording. One can certainly discuss things here gentlemanly, as you have already demonstrated.

- Randy

well dont I just feel like an asshat:o i apologize for my response, it seems parts of mine were also unwarranted, now that you explain that(i obviously misred your post:o). I completely understand your disagreeing opinions, just hoped i could shed a diferent light on the situation, sorry for jumping down your throat. It's nice to see that we can agree to disagree. again sorry about that

Carfixer, well put response

racorcey

11-29-2007, 06:59 AM

well dont I just feel like an asshat:o i apologize for my response, it seems parts of mine were also unwarranted, now that you explain that(i obviously misred your post:o). I completely understand your disagreeing opinions, just hoped i could shed a diferent light on the situation, sorry for jumping down your throat. It's nice to see that we can agree to disagree. again sorry about that.

Now that's a true Gentleman and Scholar (or at least a learned one).:)

Also, in response to Larry regarding doctors higher off-insurance fees - never be afraid to ask for the insurance discount. Most will accomodate you. So far, that's been one advatange of having been forced to use a MSA (Medical Savings Account). Before you use up your deductible, you pay the doctor his normal fee - less the insurance discount. It has shed a new light (for me, at least), in not being afraid to ask for this discount up front before ever showing them my insurance ID card. I've been amazed at how many (of the office personnel) respond positively.

- Randy

chader

11-29-2007, 07:20 AM

VaMarauder....I don't have a misunderstanding with you or a complaint about your spelling. My response was to Chader. While I may disagree with some of your opinion, at least you state it in logical, reasonable terms. You didn't come straight out and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about (as Chader did), you simply have a difference of opinion, spoken in plain English. I respect that. I don't respect Chader's open sarcasm. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but that doesn't mean I have to accept his choice of poor wording. One can certainly discuss things here gentlemanly, as you have already demonstrated.

- Randy

I guess it is obvious that I do not do well at spelling or stating things in a mannor that does not offend some.I was trying to reply in the same tone I felt I was reading.I will not go into detail of what I don't respect or how I think someone was "took".I do like the way Carfixer stated what I would have liked to.I am satisfied that I'm not the only person that feels the way I do.I guess in final I think if you may get offended by how someone words things,you should becarefull how you initiate the wording.....sorry if anyones feelings were hurt,that was not the intention.

racorcey

11-29-2007, 12:21 PM

I guess it is obvious that I do not do well at spelling or stating things in a mannor that does not offend some.I was trying to reply in the same tone I felt I was reading.I will not go into detail of what I don't respect or how I think someone was "took".I do like the way Carfixer stated what I would have liked to.I am satisfied that I'm not the only person that feels the way I do.I guess in final I think if you may get offended by how someone words things,you should becarefull how you initiate the wording.....sorry if anyones feelings were hurt,that was not the intention.

Chader....I am sure, like most everyone on this digest, you have certain experiences to offer. I also take it at face value that you have no ill intentions towards anyone. Neither do I, for that matter. I stated earlier my feelings about how you presented things, and I haven't changed my mind. Of course, that's my view, and I cannot speak for anyone else reading the posts. Take all the posts from everyone as you see fit, and use them as learning items. I do. I understand that writing posts doesn't always convey the impression or expression that it's originator intended. But to me, some things are as plain as the screens they are viewed on, and that's what I saw in your posts and I responded in kind. Other posters responded in less offensive way.

I believe, at this point, all involved in this minor fracas (notice I didn't say "flame") have made their respective - and respectful - points. It's time to put it to pasture - and return to the regularly scheduled programming.

- Randy