Towing 4000 lbs with Marauder [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

lifespeed

11-28-2007, 10:35 AM

Hi,

I am considering replacing my '97 Crown Vic police with an '04 Marauder. I have a boat and trailer that weigh 4000 lbs. The trailer has 4 disc brakes.

I guess we all know the car is easily capable of towing more than the advertised 2000 lbs, given the correct equipment. And therein lies my question:

How large is the Marauder tranny cooler? Is the radiator any larger than a stock Grand Marquis? Does it have coil springs in the rear with air leveling, or is it strictly air?

I know on my Crown Vic I had to install a truck dual-row radiator core and do a bit of custom fabricating to make it fit. The stock single row seemed inadequate pulling uphill in 100 degree weather. Temps would hover around 200 degrees. I also installed the largest stacked-plate transmission cooler available and a temp gauge, running the fluid thru the radiator first to ensure reasonable cold-weather operation. The trans temp stayed under 180 degrees even under severe loads. I also installed airbags inside the rear coils.

How does the Marauder cooling perform under extreme conditions (hot weather, heavy towing)? What about the air suspension? If the air suspension is inadequate, can I simply swap in coils and airbags?

I did note that my Class IV Valley frame hitch on the '97 is supposed to fit the '98 - '07 cars. Is there any factory wiring support that I can plug into, or must I hard-wire it myself? I do need the backup light to trigger a lockout for the disc brakes.

Thanks in advance for any info and experience,

Lifespeed

ts-pa

11-28-2007, 10:41 AM

I know on my Crown Vic I had to install a truck dual-row radiator core and do a bit of custom fabricating to make it fit. The stock single row seemed inadequate pulling uphill in 100 degree weather. Temps would hover around 200 degrees.

I also installed the largest stacked-plate transmission cooler available and a temp gauge, running the fluid thru the radiator first to ensure reasonable cold-weather operation. The trans temp stayed under 180 degrees even under severe loads.

I also installed airbags inside the rear coils.

Got any pics and more details of this setup?

lifespeed

11-28-2007, 10:47 AM

Got any pics and more details of this setup?

No pics, although I suppose that is possible if you're really interested.

Details on what?

The radiator core is a late-model Ford F150 two-row. The tanks are stock '97 one one side (thick side). The thin side is replaced with the stock tank from the thick (passenger) side flipped upside down with the trans cooler holes plugged. Any good radiator shop can build one.

ts-pa

11-28-2007, 10:56 AM

No pics, although I suppose that is possible if you're really interested.

Details on what?

The radiator core is a late-model Ford F150 two-row. The tanks are stock '97 one one side (thick side). The thin side is replaced with the stock tank from the thick (passenger) side flipped upside down with the trans cooler holes plugged. Any good radiator shop can build one.

You answered my question right there, can you post some pics of it?

Here (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23826&highlight=car+towing) is a link that may help you.

lifespeed

11-28-2007, 11:09 AM

I'll see if I can post some photos tonight, although it is hard to see much detail when installed in the car.

Should I assume that you are interested in the radiator upgrade because the Marauder radiator is the same skinny, barely-adequate part used in all the Panther-platform cars?

ts-pa

11-28-2007, 01:00 PM

exactly......

kayzap

11-28-2007, 02:24 PM

Have you considered any negatives to submerging the rear of your car?

lifespeed

11-28-2007, 03:49 PM

Have you considered any negatives to submerging the rear of your car?

When launching a boat it is traditional to submerge only the boat and trailer in the water, not the tow vehicle.

Why do you ask? Do pickups or sport-utes have better underwater performance than passenger cars? ;)

kayzap

11-28-2007, 05:03 PM

Do pickups or sport-utes have better underwater performance than passenger cars? ;)

:D :D^^ :D:D

When I watch people launching their boats I usually see the rear wheels either just touching the water or backed farther into it. My question had to do with the car being lower than a truck so I wondered if the rear portion of the car would be under water. The exhuast and bumper area's. I guess if it were a problem you could extend the trailers tongue.

Blackened300a

11-28-2007, 05:24 PM

I dont think the polished aluminum rims would like saltwater very much if you dipped them in when backing the boat in.

jgc61sr2002

11-28-2007, 05:32 PM

I would purchase a pick up to tow a boat.

Illss

11-28-2007, 05:56 PM

I would purchase a pick up to tow a boat.
+1 Thats what im saying .

sailsmen

11-28-2007, 06:11 PM

Do not put a tranny cooler that throws heat on the radiator. Engines are expensive and tranny are cheap.

In the event of a tragic accident exceeding the 2,000lb limit may cause a problem.

Blackened300a

11-28-2007, 06:15 PM

Buy a beater truck to tow the boat around. Its a rare modern muscle car, not a tow truck.

racorcey

11-29-2007, 12:34 PM

:D :D^^ :D:D

When I watch people launching their boats I usually see the rear wheels either just touching the water or backed farther into it. My question had to do with the car being lower than a truck so I wondered if the rear portion of the car would be under water. The exhuast and bumper area's. I guess if it were a problem you could extend the trailers tongue.

I've always been a fan of water-cooled exhaust systems.:P

Vortech347

11-29-2007, 04:31 PM

Marauderjack

11-30-2007, 05:13 AM

My question is this....

I've thought about towing my 17"er with my marauder too. I always have to borrow my dads truck.

Launching? How do you NOT put the rear bumper/trunk.
Recovery. How do you get traction pulling the boat out?(heavy with water soak) Several times I put my dads F-150 in 4x4.

I pulled my 3500# Stingray with a 1200# trailer ALL OVER Florida for about 10 years using only CV's.....1994, 1997, and 2000.....got crappy fuel mileage (12 or so) but never had a car problem and never added any coolers or towing aids except air bags!!!:bows: The CV's all had coil springs so I had to add Air-Lift air bags since the tongue weight was around 350#.....towed straight and true!!

I have towed my Cobra in an enclosed trailer (6900#) with the Marauder but not far...nor very fast....I wouldn't recommend that much weight!!:shake:

I now have a 2200# runabout and trailer that the Marauder hardly knows is back there!!:beer:

As long as you can STOP OK......go for it.....The "MIGHTY MARAUDER" is up to the task!!!:bows::D

Marauderjack:burnout:

lifespeed

11-30-2007, 11:32 AM

Buy a beater truck to tow the boat around. Its a rare modern muscle car, not a tow truck.

I don't want a truck, beater or otherwise. It would be a waste of money and space in the driveway when I already have a perfectly capable vehicle.

The panther makes an excellent towing platform. I know this from my own personal experience, as do many others. It has a full frame, solid axle, and a reasonably strong trans and motor. It is actually very similar to an F150 pickup drivetrain. The limited slip works wonders on slippery paved boat ramps. Unimproved lakeshores (mud) are out of the question, of course.

I can see that some peoples sensibilities are offended by the very thought, but I don't think that changes the reality that they are good tow vehicles up to the 5000 lb rating of the 1991 model.

Do these cars have coil springs with air assist, or pure air like the other air-suspended Grand Marquis?

JohnE

12-01-2007, 06:58 AM

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/588747/fullsize/2007-july-gulf-state-park056.jpg http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/588748/fullsize/kids.jpg

I tow with my 2000 Grand Marquis. It's radiator limited to about 75mph on at 90* day. Have an additional trans cooler and a larger cooler for the blower too. I'd recommend upgrading the radiator for your application.

Also have factory rear air suspension. This works wonderfully. The Lighting Control Module is not designed to supply the load of trailer lights. You need a converter, which has a separate 12V supply.

Are you still endurance racing waterskis? My friend with a Mastercraft threw out his back towards the end of the summer. Which means I lost my driver and I'm going through withdrawals. At least the kids are taking up the sport.

John

lifespeed

12-01-2007, 11:20 PM

I tow with my 2000 Grand Marquis. It's radiator limited to about 75mph on at 90* day. Have an additional trans cooler and a larger cooler for the blower too. I'd recommend upgrading the radiator for your application.

Also have factory rear air suspension. This works wonderfully. The Lighting Control Module is not designed to supply the load of trailer lights. You need a converter, which has a separate 12V supply.

Are you still endurance racing waterskis? My friend with a Mastercraft threw out his back towards the end of the summer. Which means I lost my driver and I'm going through withdrawals. At least the kids are taking up the sport.

John

Hi John,

I must have met you, at least online, somewhere before. Maybe CrownVic.net?

I stopped waterski racing after a pretty bad shoulder injury, followed by chasing a couple better jobs, moving around, having children and buying a better house. Everythings good now.

The towing emphasis means I'm back to getting my boat in order. I have continued waterskiing, but neither competitively nor often enough. While I don't plan to continue racing, I do still love to waterski and intend to get back to it after one of life's busy periods pushed it out of the way.

I noticed the radiator limit. It has to be changed to a dual-core design for heavier towing. Really the only reason I can think of for the 2000 lb official limit, along with the trans cooler. It took a bit of fabrication to get one in a '97, but not too bad or expensive. After that you can tow uphill for 10 miles in 100 degree weather. I'm going to look into options for the '04. I saw an aftermarket all-aluminum beauty at Reinhardt's, but it did not say if it was two-row.

Lifespeed

Shora

12-02-2007, 01:46 AM

lifespeed

12-02-2007, 02:32 AM

Check this thread out. Post #6 has a pic of it too. http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28099&highlight=griffin I looked for more info on http://griffinrad.com/ but couldn't find any. Must be a limited item.

Looks like the same radiator That Dennis sells. I'll have to look into it. Still no mention single or dual row, but it wouldn't be an upgrade if it wasn't dual row.

As to the racers questioning if it's necessary . . . often it is not: 1/4 mile bursts of speed don't put much heat into the engine. It is the sustained stuff that will get you. But sustained doesn't occur often without towing or hills, because sustained power gets you 100+ mph in a very short time.

Lifespeed

Shora

12-02-2007, 09:30 AM

Looks like the same radiator That Dennis sells. I'll have to look into it. Still no mention single or dual row, but it wouldn't be an upgrade if it wasn't dual row.

As to the racers questioning if it's necessary . . . often it is not: 1/4 mile bursts of speed don't put much heat into the engine. It is the sustained stuff that will get you. But sustained doesn't occur often without towing or hills, because sustained power gets you 100+ mph in a very short time.

Lifespeed

Let us know what you find out. Maybe calling Griffin directly is the best option since they build them. No mix ups.

Aren Jay

12-03-2007, 10:56 PM

Get a Lightning for the boat.

ts-pa

12-03-2007, 11:36 PM

Wow, that Griffin is a high dollar radiator!

Shora

12-04-2007, 12:41 AM

Wow, that Griffin is a high dollar radiator!

A brand new OEM Radiator costs between $189-$237.

I have run some of my Panthers hard. Sometimes I run them 6-7 hours straight (mostly idling) in the summer heat (97+ degrees) and according to the Scan Gauge the water temp never exceeds 193*. In fact, no matter how hard I run them, as long as the A/C is on, the water temp never exceeds 193* and is mostly at 191*

I did notice that if I do not run the A/C, the water temp reaches 209* before the fan kicks on to lower the temperature slightly to around 206* at which point the fan turns off until 209* is reached again.

I found this a bit odd so I tried it on the Marauder and I get the exact same results.

For $900 big ones (or over 4 times the cost of the OEM), this radiator better be attached to a pair of hooters...er...I mean...headers.

Stranger in the Black Sedan

12-04-2007, 11:24 AM

I did notice that if I do not run the A/C, the water temp reaches 209* before the fan kicks on to lower the temperature slightly to around 206* at which point the fan turns off until 209* is reached again.

I found this a bit odd so I tried it on the Marauder and I get the exact same results.

I can only guess that the computer is probably programmed to turn the fan on/off at lower temps w/ AC on, than w/ AC off. I have programmed 80s fuel injected vehicles, and even they had separate fan temp tables for AC on/off.

ts-pa

12-04-2007, 08:08 PM

I can only guess that the computer is probably programmed to turn the fan on/off at lower temps w/ AC on, than w/ AC off. I have programmed 80s fuel injected vehicles, and even they had separate fan temp tables for AC on/off.

That is somewhat correct, according to what MM_BKK has found out as mentioned here (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36991).

lifespeed

12-05-2007, 09:31 AM

I did notice that if I do not run the A/C, the water temp reaches 209* before the fan kicks on to lower the temperature slightly to around 206* at which point the fan turns off until 209* is reached again.

I found this a bit odd so I tried it on the Marauder and I get the exact same results.

For $900 big ones (or over 4 times the cost of the OEM), this radiator better be attached to a pair of hooters...er...I mean...headers.

The engine temp when under a light load has no relation to what it does under a heavy load (towing). If you repeated the temp measurements while towing, the need for a two-row radiator would be obvious.

lifespeed

12-05-2007, 09:38 AM

Get a Lightning for the boat.

Get a truck, get a truck . . .

A waste of money and space. These cars tow great. Have you ever done it? Do you know what you're talking about?

Lifespeed

Shora

12-05-2007, 02:38 PM

A brand new OEM Radiator costs between $189-$237.

I have run some of my Panthers hard. Sometimes I run them 6-7 hours straight (mostly idling) in the summer heat (97+ degrees) and according to the Scan Gauge the water temp never exceeds 193*. In fact, no matter how hard I run them, as long as the A/C is on, the water temp never exceeds 193* and is mostly at 191*

I did notice that if I do not run the A/C, the water temp reaches 209* before the fan kicks on to lower the temperature slightly to around 206* at which point the fan turns off until 209* is reached again.

I found this a bit odd so I tried it on the Marauder and I get the exact same results.

For $900 big ones (or over 4 times the cost of the OEM), this radiator better be attached to a pair of hooters...er...I mean...headers.

The engine temp when under a light load has no relation to what it does under a heavy load (towing). If you repeated the temp measurements while towing, the need for a two-row radiator would be obvious.

You are making a great point. Maybe that is why Marauders are rated to tow "only" 2K pounds.

Again, the Griffin sounds like a top unit but few will have a need for it and even fewer will ever spend that kind of cash for it.

At half the price (which is still over double that of the OEM unit) I would buy one. Since that isn't going to happen, I am glad that I don't need to tow with the Marauder.

lifespeed

12-05-2007, 02:41 PM

You are making a great point. Maybe that is why Marauders are rated to tow "only" 2K pounds.
Again, the Griffin sounds like a top unit but few will have a need for it and even fewer will ever spend that kind of cash for it.

Agreed on all points. Buying that radiator is going to hurt . . . :(

Lifespeed

Shora

12-05-2007, 04:40 PM

Agreed on all points. Buying that radiator is going to hurt . . . :(

Lifespeed

You might want to look into a Scan Gauge 2. They are vendors here. Try towing using the Marauder with the OEM radiator and you will be able to monitor the engine water temp and the transmission temp.

If they are higher than you like, buy the Griffin and tow again. This way, you will clearly be able to see if the Griffin is indeed needed, if you should add a transmission cooler as well, and how much of a cooling improvement you get with the high dollar radiator.

lifespeed

12-05-2007, 04:51 PM

You might want to look into a Scan Gauge 2. They are vendors here. Try towing using the Marauder with the OEM radiator and you will be able to monitor the engine water temp and the transmission temp.

If they are higher than you like, buy the Griffin and tow again. This way, you will clearly be able to see if the Griffin is indeed needed, if you should add a transmission cooler as well, and how much of a cooling improvement you get with the high dollar radiator.

I've already been through that experiment in a Crown Victoria. Same cooling system, less horsepower. It doesn't work pulling hills or in really hot weather. And yes, a very large trans cooler is required also.

I know from experience it is needed. Look back at JohnE's post, he has had the same issue.

ts-pa

12-05-2007, 06:09 PM

Maybe give these (http://www.becool.com/) guys a call. They built the radiator used in the "Crown Vicarius V-10" (http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/72538_1999_ford_crown_victoria/index.html).

ts-pa

12-05-2007, 06:16 PM

On the Bondurant (http://www.gulfgt.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114311&postcount=1) (A.K.A. "Cobra Vic's") cars, they used a F-250 radiator.

Shora

12-05-2007, 08:56 PM

On the Bondurant (http://www.gulfgt.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114311&postcount=1) (A.K.A. "Cobra Vic's") cars, they used a F-250 radiator.

I wonder how easily those radiators fit. Funny you mention it, I heard of a few S/C Marauder owners who use an F-250 transmission cooler instead of the factory transmission cooler we have.

For example, they leave the factory transmission cooler in place for the Power Steering cooling and disconnect the transmission lines which they run to the F-250 transmission cooler. It is much bigger and even comes with braided stainless steel lines.

chrish

12-05-2007, 09:43 PM

ts-pa

12-05-2007, 10:35 PM

I wonder how easily those radiators fit. Funny you mention it, I heard of a few S/C Marauder owners who use an F-250 transmission cooler instead of the factory transmission cooler we have.

For example, they leave the factory transmission cooler in place for the Power Steering cooling and disconnect the transmission lines which they run to the F-250 transmission cooler. It is much bigger and even comes with braided stainless steel lines.

Funny you mentioned about the large cooler, that is one of the parts I'm waiting on. It is described as being for a 1999-2003 Superduty Upgraded OEM 7.3L Cooler (V-10 Style), essentially the same as Tru-Cool # LPD47391 that Darrin suggested, but with larger mounting tabs.

Got any info on those braided lines? I don't have any means to hook it up yet.

Shora

12-06-2007, 08:00 AM

Got any info on those braided lines? I don't have any means to hook it up yet.

The lines come with the cooler.

Also, with this type of cooler, you ingnor the OEM transmission cooler so why did you buy a new OEM cooler?

ts-pa

12-06-2007, 08:13 AM

The lines come with the cooler.

Also, with this type of cooler, you ingnor the OEM transmission cooler so why did you buy a new OEM cooler?

To run in series; trans to add-on cooler, then to OEM cooler, back to trans.

lifespeed

12-06-2007, 09:28 AM

I tow my 4000 lbs. Lasron inboard/outboard,23' long boat. 4 wheels on the trailer.The boat towes fine.I never go far or fast.The only concern I have is the receiver hitch is one of the smaller size NOT like on pick-up trucks.The motor never appears to heat up via the factory guages.How could I tell if the transmittion is heating up?Also I turn the overdrive off.I reside in texas.
Thoughts....Ideas............

I believe the transmission temp is available thru the computer if you have a scan tool (or maybe an Xcal?). On my old car, I installed a trans temp gauge. If a water/oil cooler is available in the radiator (like in the pre-'98 cars) it is a good idea to run the fluid thru it first to provide some level of minimum heat in the fluid. A true thermostate would be better.

Proper frame-mount Class IV receiver style hitches are available for these cars. For 4000 lbs, you should probably use one. They cost less than $200.

Lifespeed

lifespeed

12-06-2007, 09:32 AM