Vortech supercharger problem

[John F. Russo]

Again I come to those who have provided the most consistent help over the years. And it costs nothing! That's what friends are for they say. I agree.

Problem
My Kenny Brown car (profile below) has occasionally skipped when in a WOT situation. I have decided to study what is causing it.

Conditions when engine "skipped"
Recently it has happened after about 10 seconds in WOT at about 70 mph. All of sudden there is a hesitation for about one second then it takes off smoothly. I had more than 1/2 tank of gas and the car had been running at this speed for about 20 minutes.

Other Data
Each time it has happened it skips exactly the same way. I have never had any service performed on the supercharger. I have never replaced the plugs because my dealer says they are good for 100,000 miles.

What other data do I need to collect to determine what is causing this problem?

2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03; 70,000 miles
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion, Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; 3.48 pulley), 400 RWHP/377 RWTQ, 8.8lbs/BHP; Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18, rear widened rims 285/45ZR18), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, KB Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; Zaino waxing; RainX; 3M protective film, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in. MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
______________________________ ___________________________
(Gone) 1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel

[magindat]

Is it a misfire?

Check plugs and COP connectors.

[merc]

This could be a transmission problem.
Do you have a boost gauge ?
How many miles on engine ?
Can you re-create the problem without going in WOT ?
Does it happen on up-shift only ?

[John F. Russo]

magindat
If it is a "misfire", why doesn't it do it at any time that the car is not in WOT?
I may have a misfire but I can't say for sure. I have never had the experience of sensing this condition since no one has given me a car and said, "This car misfires. Now go out and see how it feels."


Merc
This could be a transmission problem. Why doesn't it happen when it isn't in WOT?
Do you have a boost gauge ? Yes
How many mile on engine ? 70,000
Can you re-create the problem without going in WOT? No
Does it happen on up-shift only ? I'm in 3rd gear before I go WOT

[magindat]

When boost, cylinder pressures and amount of fuel are at their highest is when the fire (spark) gets 'blown out'. Misfire is kind of mis-leading. It should be called a non-fire.

It's often characterized by excessive black smoke from the exhaust while it's happening.

When was your last plug change? The gap grows as the electrode material wears down. Bigger gap = harder to jump gap in the cylinder atmosphere = misfire.

[merc]

magindat
If it is a "misfire", why doesn't it do it at any time that the car is not in WOT?
I may have a misfire but I can't say for sure. I have never had the experience of sensing this condition since no one has given me a car and said, "This car misfires. Now go out and see how it feels."


Merc
This could be a transmission problem. Why doesn't it happen when it isn't in WOT?
Do you have a boost gauge ? Yes
How many mile on engine ? 70,000
Can you re-create the problem without going in WOT? No
Does it happen on up-shift only ? I'm in 3rd gear before I go WOT

When coming down from 4th and going into WOT at third does your car hit hard after hesitation?
Also take a look at boot gauge

[Krytin]

Are you hitting the rev limiter? What are you turning for RPM when it "skips"? (and can it do "double dutch"? - I know, I'm an A**HOLE).
If it's always after an extended run @ WOT and it's NOT the rev limiter, check the fuel filter and hope you're not running lean under boost @ WOT!

[John F. Russo]

magindat
Plug change? (I never have yet)
Black smoke? (I'll check it out next time.)

Krytin
Are you hitting the rev limiter? (I usually don't go over 100 mph.)
What are you turning for RPM when it "skips"? (and can it do "double dutch"? - I know, I'm an A**HOLE). (I got to keep
my eye on the road. I'll try to determine the next time when there are fewer cars on the road)
If it's always after an extended run @ WOT and it's NOT the rev limiter (I only run for about 15 sec at WOT.)
Check the fuel filter: (I'll check it.)
I hope you're not running lean under boost @ WOT! (How can I tell that I am?)

merc
No, it does not. I'll look at the boost gauge the next time.

[MarauderMark]

Are you running twin cobra or gt fuel pumps? Maybe one has failed?

[Dennis Reinhart]

Again I come to those who have provided the most consistent help over the years. And it costs nothing! That's what friends are for they say. I agree.

Problem
My Kenny Brown car (profile below) has occasionally skipped when in a WOT situation. I have decided to study what is causing it.

Conditions when engine "skipped"
Recently it has happened after about 10 seconds in WOT at about 70 mph. All of sudden there is a hesitation for about one second then it takes off smoothly. I had more than 1/2 tank of gas and the car had been running at this speed for about 20 minutes.

Other Data
Each time it has happened it skips exactly the same way. I have never had any service performed on the supercharger. I have never replaced the plugs because my dealer says they are good for 100,000 miles.

What other data do I need to collect to determine what is causing this problem?

2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03; 70,000 miles
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion, Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; 3.48 pulley), 400 RWHP/377 RWTQ, 8.8lbs/BHP; Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18, rear widened rims 285/45ZR18), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, KB Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; Zaino waxing; RainX; 3M protective film, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in. MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
______________________________ ___________________________
(Gone) 1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel



Call me John when you get a chance

[Vortech347]

Datalog that car and have DR help ya!

[John F. Russo]

MarauderMark
Are you running twin cobra or gt fuel pumps? Maybe one has failed? (I don't know if Kenny Brown changed the fuel pump.)

Dennis Reinhart
Call me John when you get a chance. ( I will. Thank you for engaging.)

Nitrous SSC
Datalog that car and have DR help ya! (Thank you for the suggestion.)



I'm leaving my office and will engage by tomorrow.

[Zack]

Its the converter lock schedule. All Kenny Brown Cars suffered from this.

[John F. Russo]

Its the converter lock schedule. All Kenny Brown Cars suffered from this.

Thank you for commenting, Zack.

Can any of the other Kenny Brown car owners comment on Zack's hypothesis?

My plan is to try to see what conditions precipitate the hesitation.

I drive 20 highway miles every day to work. I'll see how often I get the hesitation at the same conditions that it happened the first time.

[magindat]

Regardless of what the dealer says or the outcome of this investigation, 70K is way to long a plug change interval on a blown car. A plug change wouldn't hurt.

Zack may have more to comment, here, but I'd put in NGK TR6 plugs at no more than a .035 gap. Prolly more like .032.

[John F. Russo]

Regardless of what the dealer says or the outcome of this investigation, 70K is way to long a plug change interval on a blown car. A plug change wouldn't hurt.

Zack may have more to comment, here, but I'd put in NGK TR6 plugs at no more than a .035 gap. Prolly more like .032.


I guess I'll change the plugs and see what happens. Any other recommendations for plugs?

[Vortech347]

On my blown stang I change the plugs every time I change the oil. Spark is SO important not to skimp on it. Besides plugs are CHEAP. With a blown car like yours TR6's or Autolites. DO NOT RUN PLATNUM's they hate boost.

[FormulaMarauder]

Are you hitting the rev limiter? (I usually don't go over 100 mph.)


Your speed has nothing to do with your rev limiter. You can hit your rev limiter on any shift dependant on the tune.

[John F. Russo]

Your speed has nothing to do with your rev limiter. You can hit your rev limiter on any shift dependant on the tune.

I misunderstood your question. Let me try again.

When I'm traveling at 70 to 80 mph and drop it into 3rd gear and go WOT, I haven't noticed the rpm I'm going at. I have 410 gears. Does anyone know at what the speed I'll be at the rev limit without my going to a highway again?
(I don't want to cause any more engine damage, if I have already done so far.)

Prior to this discussion I repeated the the same conditions five times that I originally reported on at the beginning of this thread, the car hesitated once sometimes twice, in four out of five times. It didn't hesitate at all one time. This last event sounds out of syn with the other data, so I would have to do another repeat series but I don't want to for fear of doing damage. I don't know what but I don't want to press it.

[sailsmen]

Sounds like a tuning issue and not mech.

You have a MAF designed for suck thru being used as a blow thru?

[magindat]

Does anyone know at what the speed I'll be at the rev limit without my going to a highway again?
(I don't want to cause any more engine damage, if I have already done so far.)

http://www.magindat.net/ssm/info/4r70wratios.xls

[safado]

could be a coil..saying bye bye...

[John F. Russo]

Thank you all for helping.

I'll make changes one at a time.

I'll replace my plugs and see what happens. Then I'll let everyone know the results.

[Zack]

Its the converter!

[John F. Russo]

Its the converter!

Now I have another data point to check. Thank you.

I sent back my converter to Precision about at two years ago (about 40,000) miles to upgrade to a 3500 stall.

Action plan:

1. Plugs first.

2. Coils are inexpensive (?) and easy to check out so I think I'll go there for the next round. (I have stock coils. I would like to upgrade to the 'fancy' ones. How much would this cost me roughly?)

?? 3. SergntMac said that I have a Walbro 180 fuel pump.

[sicilianmarquis]

could be a bad TPS(Throttle Position) senser that for whatever reason is reading bad at 5.0v (WOT),or just a miss like everone else says, but a miss would casue a "check engine light" to come on

[John F. Russo]

could be a bad TPS(Throttle Position) senser that for whatever reason is reading bad at 5.0v (WOT),or just a miss like everone else says, but a miss would casue a "check engine light" to come on

A fellow Sicilian (Am I right?)! But are you 100% like me?

I have not seen the check engine light on during my repetitive trials to repeat the condition that I have. I'll keep that in mind though.

Thank you.

[magindat]

could be a bad TPS(Throttle Position) senser that for whatever reason is reading bad at 5.0v (WOT),or just a miss like everone else says, but a miss would casue a "check engine light" to come on

Only if it's a coil. I had plug misses due to blow out and no CEL.

[John F. Russo]

Here is a successful conclusion to my problem. I is hard to believe because it was the first thing and only thing I did--replaced plugs with NGK iridium type.

At 71,000 miles I haven't changed my plugs since I bought my car. The new plugs have completely eliminated my problem. I have gone WOT for more than 6 times during the last two weeks.

No other changes were made. The more times it works the greater the certaintly of my conclusion.

The problem I had was going on for more than two weeks after I had first noticed it. I tested my car for about 8 WOT tests over a one week time period. And every time I had some sort of hesitation. I don't know how long I had had the problem because I go WOT once every few weeks.

I was encouraged to do a few other things at the same time and I resisted. I would never have determined with 100% certainty which change solved my problem.

I thank all of the experts on this site for their help. You all have never failed in providing the answers.

"magindat" was the first post after I stated the problem to offer the "plugs" solution.


Car Specification
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03; 70,000 miles
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion, Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; 3.48 pulley), 400 RWHP/377 RWTQ, 8.8lbs/BHP; Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit, NGKTR6 plugs, TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18, rear widened rims 285/45ZR18), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, KB Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; Zaino waxing; RainX; 3M protective film, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in. MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
______________________________ ___________________________
(Gone) 1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel

[magindat]

Glad it worked out for you inexpensively and easily, John.

[MM03MOK]

Good news to find a resolution, John! :up:

[Local Boy]

Magindat is one smart dude!

And a very nice person...

ALOHA

[Bradley G]

I would replace plugs on a blower car at 25K, that reminds me I better change mine too.
Thanks for posting up your symptom and what corrected it.

[John F. Russo]

I would replace plugs on a blower car at 25K, that reminds me I better change mine too.
Thanks for posting up your symptom and what corrected it.

I couldn't help but notice that you have the same quarter mile time and speed as I have. But I have added widened wheels. I wonder how much of a difference it would make?

Car Specification
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Made in Canada) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03; 70,000 miles
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion, Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; 3.48 pulley), 400 RWHP/377 RWTQ, 8.8lbs/BHP; Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit, NGKTR6 plugs, TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18, rear widened rims 285/45ZR18), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, KB Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; Zaino waxing; RainX; 3M protective film, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in. MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas

[sailsmen]

With the same mods @10psi and 447RWHP I ran 12.2.

[John F. Russo]

With the same mods @10psi and 447RWHP I ran 12.2.



I'm usually at 5 to 7 psig boost resulting in 400 RWHP and 377 RWTQ according to Kenny Brown's testing when I bought the car.

[Bradley G]

I have achieved 13.4 on stock tires, but in the high heat I was able to get that same time on 8" BFG drag radials.
The sticky tires were worth .3 sec ET reduction over the stockers that day.

I couldn't help but notice that you have the same quarter mile time and speed as I have. But I have added widened wheels. I wonder how much of a difference it would make?

Car Specification
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Made in Canada) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03; 70,000 miles
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion, Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; 3.48 pulley), 400 RWHP/377 RWTQ, 8.8lbs/BHP; Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit, NGKTR6 plugs, TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18, rear widened rims 285/45ZR18), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, KB Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; Zaino waxing; RainX; 3M protective film, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in. MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas

[Marauderjack]

I would replace plugs on a blower car at 25K, that reminds me I better change mine too.
Thanks for posting up your symptom and what corrected it.

ProCharger recommends changing the plugs every 10K miles??:eek:

I thought they were nuts.....until I changed them and saw a BIG difference!!!:beer:

Now I change them every other oil change and ALL is well....so far!!:bows:

BTW, I use Autolite 103's.....about $11.00 a set!!:cool:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[Bradley G]

That is interesting Jack!
Now I really think I should change them!