Say goodbye to future performance cars..................

[FormulaMarauder]

Wow.....just, wow.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/18/congress.energy.ap/index.html

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<!--endclickprintexclude--><!--startclickprintexclude--><!--endclickprintexclude-->WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress by a wide margin approved the first increase in automobile fuel economy in 32 years Tuesday, and President Bush plans to quickly sign the legislation, accepting the mandates on the auto industry.
<!--startclickprintexclude--><!-- PURGE: /2007/POLITICS/12/18/congress.energy.ap/art.cars.afp.gi.jpg --><!-- KEEP --><!----><!--===========IMAGE============-->http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/POLITICS/12/18/congress.energy.ap/art.cars.afp.gi.jpg<!--===========/IMAGE===========--> <!--===========CAPTION==========-->A new energy billl would increase the fleet average of U.S. automakers to 35 miles per gallon.<!--===========/CAPTION=========-->


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<!-- /PURGE: /2007/POLITICS/12/18/congress.energy.ap/art.cars.afp.gi.jpg --><!--endclickprintexclude-->The energy bill, boosting mileage by 40 percent to 35 miles per gallon, passed the House 314-100 and now goes to the White House, following the Senate's approved last week.
In a statement, the White House said Bush will sign the legislation at the Energy Department on Wednesday.
In a dramatic shift to spur increased demand for nonfossil fuels (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Alternative_Fuel_Vehicles), the bill also requires a six-fold increase in ethanol use to 36 billion gallons a year by 2022, a boon to farmers. And it requires new energy efficiency standards for an array of appliances, lighting and commercial and government buildings.
"This is a choice between yesterday and tomorrow" on energy policy, declared House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California, who was closely involved in crafting the legislation. "It's groundbreaking in what it will do."
While some GOP lawmakers criticized the bill for failing to address the need for more domestic oil and natural gas production, 95 GOP lawmakers joined Democrats in support of the bill.
"This legislation is a historic turning point in energy policy," said Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Maryland because it will cut demand for foreign oil and promote nonfossil fuels that will cut greenhouse gases linked to global warming.
<!--startclickprintexclude-->Don't Miss

<!-- PURGE:/2007/POLITICS/12/15/pelosi.radio.ap/index.html--><LI _extended="true">Pelosi: Bill moves U.S. to energy independence (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/15/pelosi.radio.ap/index.html) <!-- /PURGE:/2007/POLITICS/12/15/pelosi.radio.ap/index.html-->
Senate passes increase in fuel efficiency standards (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/congress.energy.ap/index.html)
<!--endclickprintexclude-->It increases energy efficiency "from light bulbs to light trucks," said Rep. John Dingell, D-Michigan, a longtime protector of the auto industry who was key to a compromise on vehicle efficiency increases.
Many Republicans denounced the Democratic-crafted bill for failing to push for more domestic production of fossil fuels and for mandates some GOP lawmakers warned will not be possible.
"What we have here is a mandatory conservation bill," said Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas. He argued that the auto fuel efficiency requirements and the huge increase in ethanol use may not prove to be technologically or economically possible.
Democrats disagreed. The legislation takes measured and concrete steps that are achievable, said Dingell.
The Senate passed the bill last week after discarding billions of dollars in higher taxes on oil companies and a solar and wind power mandate that opponents said would raise electric rates in the Southeast. President Bush and Senate Republicans opposed those measures.
The centerpiece of the bill remained the requirement for automakers to increase their industrywide vehicle fuel efficiency by 40 percent to an industry average of 35 mpg by 2020, compared with today's 25 mpg when including passenger cars, SUVs and small trucks.
Congress has not changed the auto mileage requirement since it was first enacted in 1975.
Democrats said the fuel economy requirements eventually -- when the fleet of gas-miser vehicles are widely on the road -- will save motorists $700 to $1,000 a year in fuel costs. They maintain the overall bill, including more ethanol use and various efficiency requirements and incentives, will reduce U.S. oil demand by 4 million barrels a day by 2030, more than twice the daily imports from the volatile Persian Gulf.
The automakers have repeatedly fought an increase in the federal fuel standard, known as CAFE, maintaining it would limit the range of vehicles consumers will have available in showrooms and threaten auto industry jobs. Bush also has argued against an arbitrary, numerical increase in the fuel efficiency requirement, preferring instead legislation to streamline the federal requirements and market incentives to get rid of gas guzzling vehicles.
But the automakers have accepted the political shift toward a tougher requirement. After the Senate approved the legislation last week, the White House immediately said Bush would sign it once it reaches his desk.<!--startclickprintexclude-->E-mail to a friend (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/18/congress.energy.ap/index.html#)http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/util/email.gif<!--endclickprintexclude-->

[cyclopsram]

Fewer hipo cars because of the averaging... however not the death knell. Heck, Marauders could get 35 mpg with a six speed double overdrive tranny and cylinder management and more real weight loss..

[Cordoba1]

Don't worry -- As long as consumers want performance cars -- and they do!!! -- there will be a technology solution to the problem.

In the early days of emissions-controls, they strangled engines and vastly lowered output. Now, with the fine controls that the systems have on all aspects of engine control, they actually help! (Save loosing a few ponies to restrictive cats, etc)

The best is yet to come!

[JonW]

As long as the demand exists, there will be performance cars. They may be different than what we know now. They may be hybrids, or electric, or super-efficient gas engines. Look at the Tesla roadster. It's all-electric, and does 0 - 60 in about 4 seconds.

With cylinder deactivation, a 6-speed overdrive automatic, and more efficient intake and exhaust, the Marauder could get 30 mpg on the highway.

[duhtroll]

Electric cars are faster than ICE cars.

Back in the 90s they had a electric car that did 0-60 in something like 4 seconds. That was econo-straight-off-the-show-floor too.

The sky is not actually falling.

[ImpalaSlayer]

as long as we dont have to drive the geewiz ill be ok :laugh:

[offroadkarter]

as long as we dont have to drive the geewiz ill be ok :laugh:


I'd rather buy a table

http://www.rentfurnitureuk.com/photos/large/K-6SKT-P.jpg

[Glenn]

Yes, today's performance cars have reached their pinnacle. Our MMs and Mustangs and other performance cars will increase their value as we approach these MPG fuel mandates in the years ahead. The Challangers and Camaros are too far along to stop production, but they will only last 2-3 years. The same with the performance variants of the Mustangs. Real performance cars in the future will be very costly and not obtainable to the average guy. We are the high point of the modern performance car age. It will not last much longer.

[snowbird]

:geezer:Greater performance for cars race started when they built the second one, in the late 18 hundreds !

The way they will be design will change but I doubt the desire to perform with one is about to fade.

The ones using more batteries plugged in serial fashion will sport more voltage ==> more HPs for the centrifugal guys and the more amps plugged in parallel will give more grunt down low end torque for the Eatons guys.

So we will still be able to fight and argue like childs !! :)

[hdwrenchtx]

there are better performing cars produced today than when they supposedly stopped producing "muscle cars" due to gas prices. cars today generally weigh a lot more and have better brakes, safety equipment.

on the bright side i read an article the other day in automobile about the german autobans... apparently they pay more in taxes for a gallon of gas the it even costs over here. $3.90 a gallon or something in taxes alone after tax $8 a gallon.

I wish we had the transit system they do Europe. Subways, streetcars, trains, etc. hell and I havent even been (to mainland continent anyway) since 1990.

:beer:

[pantheroc]

@holes....What about aircraft, trucks?? Every politician should put their money where their mouth is. They should only drive 30mpg+ vehicles right NOW!!

[Aren Jay]

Hybrid everything simple solution.

Marauders would have received a 100 ftlb torque boost 50 bhp and then little cars get a smaller engine and hybrid too.

Battery companies are going to be the next big stock.

[baltimoremm]

Just remember, there is no law which prohibits modifications from stock. As long as the need for speed and HP exists, technology will develop to modify even the most fuel efficient cars to make them faster. Car enthusiasts will adapt to the new technology.
I personally think its a great stride towards reduce our independence on foreign oil

[VAmarauder03]

Performance cars are going no where... If im not mistaken Lexus is coming out with a 400+hp hybrid car...

[hot-rauder]

ill try and find the article but it shows that if Toyota had actually wanted to "save" the economy they would have made the Prius into a 4cyl. it would get better gas mileage than its Hybrid motor does. batteries weigh soo much. it is only a statement car.

and i too will buy a TABLE. much safer :lol:

[hot-rauder]

Performance cars are going no where... If im not mistaken Lexus is coming out with a 400+hp hybrid car...

they have one out already but its just a luxo-sedan. here is the one i think you mean....

http://news.windingroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/toy-ht-concept013-600.jpg

[Aren Jay]

the 600h is not a high mpg car. It barely gets better mileage than a SC Marauder.

[BlownMerc]

Yeah, it's funny that the same guy that travels more miles per year than the average professional basketball player and has an entourage of 30 plus people tagging along, all in a 747 or Huey helicopter or a fleet of limos wants to lecture and make new law on fuel efficiency. I got just as big a laugh when he made his "America is addicted to oil" speech. I bet he burns more than the average small town but it's our problem. Make the prez travel by mass transit or in a hybrid. They could make a bullet proof Prius or subway/elevated rail car. Leave my hotrods alone!

[FordNut]

The only way people will quit driving performance cars is if it's too expensive. $8.00 a gallon for gas will convert a lot of people to econo-box drivers.

And the ethanol idea is just plain stupid. Science doesn't support it, only the government and some environmentalists see it as a solution. So now that corn is going into gas tanks the price of corn products goes up (most everything since corn syrup is used in most foods we buy), the price of meat goes up (since most of the animals are normally fattened on corn), and the environment is wrecked (pollution from fertilizer, water consumed and polluted from waste byproducts in ethanol production as well as vehicle exhaust) all for a net loss in energy (growing, transporting, processing, electricity consumption for production consume more energy than you can get out of ethanol as fuel). And now that all the corn that is available is being put in fuel tanks we don't have the surplus grain to feed the starving third world countries. But hey, it's economics. Spend $2 here to prevent spending $1 on crude oil. Makes sense, right?

[MarauderTJA]

Deadline is 2020......a ways down the road................

[MACFORD88]

CHECK THIS OUT I READ IT TODAY.
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/gm-emission-law-may-hamper-muscle-cars/n20071220003009990014

[Aren Jay]

The only way people will quit driving performance cars is if it's too expensive. $8.00 a gallon for gas will convert a lot of people to econo-box drivers.

And the ethanol idea is just plain stupid. Science doesn't support it, only the government and some environmentalists see it as a solution. So now that corn is going into gas tanks the price of corn products goes up (most everything since corn syrup is used in most foods we buy), the price of meat goes up (since most of the animals are normally fattened on corn), and the environment is wrecked (pollution from fertilizer, water consumed and polluted from waste byproducts in ethanol production as well as vehicle exhaust) all for a net loss in energy (growing, transporting, processing, electricity consumption for production consume more energy than you can get out of ethanol as fuel). And now that all the corn that is available is being put in fuel tanks we don't have the surplus grain to feed the starving third world countries. But hey, it's economics. Spend $2 here to prevent spending $1 on crude oil. Makes sense, right?


Ethanol is great, just don't make it from corn. Sugar cane is the best for Ethanol.

[duhtroll]

There isn't enough sugar on the planet to be able to do this.

There also are not enough places that we will ever be able to grow sugar (cheaply enough, anyway) to handle the demand.

I don't think anyone is promoting ethanol as a permanent solution -- only a short term fix until we have better tech in place.


Ethanol is great, just don't make it from corn. Sugar cane is the best for Ethanol.

[Breadfan]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317556,00.html

Yep we're not the only one thinking it, even GM is warning this may be the "end" of muscle cars. I don't think it's the "end" per sey, but we may see another hiatus. Another decade or two full of "King Cobra" Mustangs with 134hp as "top dawg"?

The thing that really bothers me is how cars are scapegoated in the environmentalism world. I don't know why this occurs, it may be that cars are the easy target.

All I know though is that I pay $30 every two years to keep my car tested as emissions compliant. If it fails the cost to repair my car - even if it's driving fine - falls on me personally. Now - I don't really mind this, I'm happy to keep my car running as it should, and as clean as can be. No one wants the roads full of smoke belching junkers.

But when can car guys get up and say "Phew, we paid our dues, let's revel in our cars efficiency and have some fun now."

The answer appears to be - never.

The problem: Emissions and greenhouse gases come from SEVERAL sources only a fraction of which are vehicles!

Industry = a big polluter

Heck in cities high rise buildings and concrete sidewalks can be a HIGHER CONTRIBUTOR to greenhouse gasses and smog than cars!

There are several other items that cause problems - vehicles, though always brought up as the "culprit" are only a portion of the problem and have been refined greatly in the last 40 years.

While industry has gotten some of the burden and been forced to clean up it's act over the last 50 years, I would question who has taken the largest "clean" strides in the past - the auto industry or the rest of industry?

And also it's becoming due time for building owners and cities to take some responsibility and realize their heat reflective and co2 dispensing buildings and concrete jungles are part of the problem as well.

It almost feels like this requirement becomes a burden not just on automakers but also on the little guy - us. The more stringent emissions controls get the harder it will be for us to keep our cars legal and the less CHOICE we'll have in the market.

In the meantime how many "big polluters" will be able to skate under the co2 radar?

IMO a 35mpg average while keeping current choices and performance is a very tough challenge and a lot to ask from an already struggling industry. You all know as well as I do the first thing that will be on the chopping block when the money hits the fan are performance cars.

We could be getting close to the next 1969/1970 in terms of performance - and unfortunately that means the 70's and 80's will be next. Maybe DCX will make a new K-Car for us.

[TCBO1]

Noise has it that the law was actually signed in yesterday by our prez.... :mad2:sooooooooo BRING IT ON :censor:
I'd like to see where this leads.. maybe those with $$$ who like their high end cars will finally step up along with other people, and take a stand to keep their cars. Those with the most $ wins so people like Bill Gates, Donald Trump etc.. I'm sure will hate to have to go anywhere other than jet or air power will have something to say :argh:


Natalie

[Breadfan]

If it wasn't signed yet it will be shortly, I know the prez said he supports it. And why not it's an easy bill to stand behind politically, "getting tough on pollution, yeah!" that's the sentiment they feel it gives, so easy to support politically.

Expect rammifications to begin well before 2020, automakers will be scrambling to meet that deadline meaning engineering plans for non-35mpg performance cars will be sidelined or dropped to focus those resources on meeting the requirements.

The sad thing is something I learned in college, apparently it's very easy to bring an average down but harder to bring it back up...so a few hybrids in the line will help less than 1 or 2 gas guzzlers will hurt the 35mpg average goal. More reasons to expect less in terms of modern muscle.

There is a hope though, and that comes in the form of efficiency tricks such as cylinder management and other tricks, plus gearing and tuning that can sway EPA #'s. I'm betting the carmakers will use whatever tricks possible to eek out a few more EPA MPG's. This is already done a lot just look at the MM's stock tuning espeically the trans tuning.

Still I see this being a help for current offerings or perhaps performance cars already in the pipeline, I still expect new development to be limited as resources shift to meeting this 2020 goal.

[hot-rauder]

If it wasn't signed yet it will be shortly, I know the prez said he supports it. And why not it's an easy bill to stand behind politically, "getting tough on pollution, yeah!" that's the sentiment they feel it gives, so easy to support politically.

Expect rammifications to begin well before 2020, automakers will be scrambling to meet that deadline meaning engineering plans for non-35mpg performance cars will be sidelined or dropped to focus those resources on meeting the requirements.

The sad thing is something I learned in college, apparently it's very easy to bring an average down but harder to bring it back up...so a few hybrids in the line will help less than 1 or 2 gas guzzlers will hurt the 35mpg average goal. More reasons to expect less in terms of modern muscle.

There is a hope though, and that comes in the form of efficiency tricks such as cylinder management and other tricks, plus gearing and tuning that can sway EPA #'s. I'm betting the carmakers will use whatever tricks possible to eek out a few more EPA MPG's. This is already done a lot just look at the MM's stock tuning espeically the trans tuning.

Still I see this being a help for current offerings or perhaps performance cars already in the pipeline, I still expect new development to be limited as resources shift to meeting this 2020 goal.


if you guys didnt know... our prez is gone in a year.... this bill can vetoed easily.

what happened to global cooling of the 70s????

[MACFORD88]

Lets Wait And See.

[drwhy]

Read this one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22340556/

"High-performance vehicles such as this may actually be legislated out of existence,"

I hope everyone enjoys driving around in cars that weigh 1000 lbs in order to meet the new CAFE requirements. Most of the poulation is totally brain dead as to the ramifications of this type of legislation. But since they have no concept of freedom or how much freedom we have already lost, it shouldn't really cause much of a stir.

[Aren Jay]

Subaru has an Inline parallel just waiting for this such thing. It is a small electrical engine that is mated to a turbo flat 4 giving a small 15 bhp gain but 100 ftlbs of torque from the line. Allows the WRX or Legacy to get 38 MPG but still do 0-60mph in 5 seconds.

Surely Ford GM an the big C could come up with something similar. BUt who knows maybe we won't have cars in 2020.

[baltimoremm]

BUt who knows maybe we won't have cars in 2020.

I've already ordered the Mr. Fusion kit for my Marauder (And the hover conversion)

12011

[duhtroll]

IIRC the first production cars were able to get 20+ MPG.

Not much improvement in the 100+ years since then, at least as far as mileage goes.

Here's my prediction: Cars in 20 years will not only be more efficient, but they will be lighter AND faster.

This "scare-a-noia" stuff is fun to read, though.

[racorcey]

Just remember, there is no law which prohibits modifications from stock. As long as the need for speed and HP exists, technology will develop to modify even the most fuel efficient cars to make them faster. Car enthusiasts will adapt to the new technology.
I personally think its a great stride towards reduce our independence on foreign oil

Actually, there is. Under Federal law. It was tightened up around 12-15 years ago. Some of the big-name performance tuners get around the problem by certifying the cars to federal (and sometimes CA) standards by actual testing. That's one reason many of these custom cars get many 10's of thousands of dollars over the base price of the vehicle. It's not just the cost of the equipment changes.

For the average Joe, that's way above our pay grades.

[racorcey]

IIRC the first production cars were able to get 20+ MPG.

Not much improvement in the 100+ years since then, at least as far as mileage goes.

Here's my prediction: Cars in 20 years will not only be more efficient, but they will be lighter AND faster.

This "scare-a-noia" stuff is fun to read, though.

Amen, bro. As usual, the car manufacturers will react as expected. While there is no magic bullet waiting in the wings to be immediately introduced, you can already see evidence of this with a performance car such as the Corvette. 2800 lbs., 500+ hp, MPG from 19-34 real world (city/hwy).

- Randy

[TCBO1]

You can bet to "help" us out of our older, less gas friendly vehicles the government will tighten up even more on the emissions standards.. They went from tested 3 gases in the 80s to 4 gases so that makes it harder for the older vehicles to pass.. when the fail, they now have to get a minimum of $450 worth of emissions related repairs to fix why it failed.
I can see it now, any vehicle burning oil will automatically fail. To fix it they'll say you have to put a new engine in....

Nat

Found this... looks like they have already started... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332983/

[Aren Jay]

You realize that this is just going to make the Marauder a more desireable car. It is after all going to be one of the last andgreatest of the Performance cars. Everybody in 15 years will be amazed that their car can go 0-60 mph in 10 seconds and do the quarter mile in 17.

Let me see I will be near retirement age, aready well into my retirement by then, and buring up the highways and byways in my Blood Red Marauder. Amoungst all the electric cars and tables.

[hot-rauder]

You realize that this is just going to make the Marauder a more desireable car. It is after all going to be one of the last andgreatest of the Performance cars. Everybody in 15 years will be amazed that their car can go 0-60 mph in 10 seconds and do the quarter mile in 17.

Let me see I will be near retirement age, aready well into my retirement by then, and buring up the highways and byways in my Blood Red Marauder. Amoungst all the electric cars and tables.

WOO TABLES!

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