View Full Version : E85?
Dennis, have you looked into the possiblity of offering an E85 conversion package for the MM? I'm intrigued by the higher octane and possible performance boost it could offer. I know some fuel system components would need to be upgraded, and a new tune for my tuner would be required. What do you think?
magindat
12-20-2007, 08:51 AM
I'm sure DR could tune it, but I don't think there's an E85 source in FL...
Now I'm gonna look.
finster101
12-20-2007, 09:28 AM
Jon is in MO. by his sig. and he is on the wrong site for an E-85 thread.
finster101
12-20-2007, 09:29 AM
:popcorn:
:popcorn:
I saw that. :D
Jon is in MO. by his sig. and he is on the wrong site for an E-85 thread.
And your reasoning behind that is? :dunno:
magindat
12-20-2007, 11:44 AM
The nearest E85 to DR is Tally. 164 miles.
This should be done in the midwest somewhere where there's lots of 'dots'.
http://www.neare85.com/neare85/bigmape85.jpg
Local Boy
12-20-2007, 02:41 PM
My state is just a dot with no dots...lol
Representing the MM family "Hawaiian Style"
ALOHA
captain
12-20-2007, 04:18 PM
A word of caution. E 85 burns lean and hot. It tends to dry out rubber gaskets if used often. This of course causes air leaks and performance problems. In short.. it likely will have the exact opposite effect as you had hoped. It "can be done" though, and in some parts of the country its cheap.
And yes Dennis would need to be your new best buddy. Selling you larger fuel lines, pumps, tuning...................But in a pinch... no biggy.
finster101
12-20-2007, 06:45 PM
And your reasoning behind that is? :dunno:
Lidio has a thread going on this on the other site. E-85 is not available in FLA. which pretty much precludes Dennis from working with it. Unless you are running a lot of boost there is no real need for it.
mpearce
12-20-2007, 06:53 PM
Lidio has a thread going on this on the other site.
Yes, this topic has been discussed at length on the other site. The performance gains were there to make it a viable, and much less expensive option for performance/high octane/race gas.
-Mat
Dennis Reinhart
12-20-2007, 07:08 PM
Dennis, have you looked into the possiblity of offering an E85 conversion package for the MM? I'm intrigued by the higher octane and possible performance boost it could offer. I know some fuel system components would need to be upgraded, and a new tune for my tuner would be required. What do you think?
I am going to talk to Jerry about this here is some info so far.
<TABLE width=680><TBODY><TR><TD><CENTER>http://www.e85mustangs.com/graphics/bar_e85tuning.jpg
The below regional chart refers to the 3 classes of E85 blends that are offered in a particular area at that time of year. Each class has different properties, the most important being the amount of Ethanol in the blend which can affect the Air/Fuel ratio of your customized tune if you've converted to E85. This chart represents the recommended fuel to retailers, not necessarily what's in the tank at your local station.
E85 Tuning article (http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html) regarding how this plays a factor.
Summer Blend: Class 1 (min 79% ethanol)
Spring/Fall Blend: Class 2 (min 74% ethanol)
Winter Blend: Class 3 (min 70% ethanol)
</CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Lidio has a thread going on this on the other site. E-85 is not available in FLA. which pretty much precludes Dennis from working with it. Unless you are running a lot of boost there is no real need for it.
First of all, I don't belong to the "other site". And maybe I would rather hear it from Dennis, not you. I suspect he has a bit more experience in tuning than you do.
Raudermaster
12-20-2007, 09:39 PM
First of all, I don't belong to the "other site". And maybe I would rather hear it from Dennis, not you. I suspect he has a bit more experience in tuning than you do.
If you looked in Lidio's forum, there's been an E85 thread going for a while.
If you looked in Lidio's forum, there's been an E85 thread going for a while.
Thanks :beer:
finster101
12-21-2007, 04:20 AM
First of all, I don't belong to the "other site". And maybe I would rather hear it from Dennis, not you. I suspect he has a bit more experience in tuning than you do.
Okay, I wasn't trying to start a pissing match. I was trying to provide the info that was available. While I am not a "tuner" I am an ASE Master Technician working in a Cadillac dealership where we try to stay abreast of current issues and since GM makes a lot of flex fuel vehicles maybe just maybe I might have a little knowledge on this subject. I am not here to promote one guy over the other. My car has a reinhart tine that I very happy with. But the simple logistics of this would make it very difficult for Dennis to try a build a tune with fuel he can not get.
mpearce
12-21-2007, 02:29 PM
First of all, I don't belong to the "other site". And maybe I would rather hear it from Dennis, not you. I suspect he has a bit more experience in tuning than you do.
Slow your roll Big Cheese. I believe he was just trying to help you out, and I don't think he ever said he had tons of tuning experience?
Testy Testy :nono:
sailsmen
12-22-2007, 04:58 AM
It takes more petroleum to make a gallon of E85 than a gallon of gas. It drives up the cost of food.
If you want your taxes to go up and the cost of food to go up use E85.
RF Overlord
12-22-2007, 03:01 PM
It takes more petroleum to make a gallon of E85 than a gallon of gas. Then what's the point in even making E85? I thought the whole idea of E85 was to REDUCE our dependence on foreign oil...if it actually uses MORE oil to make a gallon of E85, then that's bass-ackwards...
captain
12-22-2007, 03:52 PM
last I heard it was actually 2/3 gal fuel to 1 gal. E85. But if you factor in the 3 gals of water used to produce it and the negative impact on food resources it makes no sense at all. I wish they would drop this thing immediatly. We in winona county are seeing a big facility being built as we speak. If you look at the "whos" and the "whats" it becomes obvious that this is not about fuel.. its a get rich quick scheme. guilt free, tax free, fed dollars rolling in. God bless America.
President Bush was the first to jump on the E85 bandwagon. GM seized the marketing opportunity and almost immediately began offering flex fuel vehicles and advertising E85 extensively. And now with the passage of the new energy bill, Congress has mandated that E85 production increase dramatically.
E85 has its downsides. It can't be transported by pipeline. It is not necessarily cheaper to produce than gasoline. It is going to ariticially inflate the price of corn and make some foodstuffs more expensive. There are pros and cons on both sides of the fence.
Me, I just want 105 octane :banana2:
Leadfoot281
12-22-2007, 10:28 PM
I just want to see the facts on this. Links to unbiased sites would be great.
In 2000 diesel was about $1.30/gallon or so. A bushell of corn was about the same. Today diesel is around $3.30/gallon and corn is $3.70/bushell. We're getting rich all right.
Corn left over from the distilation of ethanol is NOT wasted. I'll PayPal $100 to the first person that can prove to me that distillers grain goes to waste.
Food prices are going up because not everyone has nuclear powered tractors. What? You thought we still used horses and steam engines? Y'know, fuel prices affect everyone. Not just you.
If you like buying your gas from Saudi Arabia, I'm sure you'll love buying their food as well. Just don't hold your breath waiting for a tanker load of Pork chops and bacon to arrive from the Middle east.
Here in the Midwest we can burn 85% less oil because of people investing in ethanol. I don't care who you are, that is a good thing (unless of course you're an Arab Sheik or a dictator like Hugo Chavez).
For every $64,000,000 ethanol plant that goes up, $32million was raised by private investors. People like me. Greedy people like me that want to see America farmers stay in business. And in five year I hope to get my $20,000 investment back. If I get more than that, I will pay taxes on it.
Enjoy your Christmas dinner. I'll be working. I have three basements being delivered here. That's right, I said basements. Due to the floods this summer I was lucky enough to high-jack some trucks on their way to the dump with the basements of three homes. I intend to use them to shore up my creek so I don't lose more farmland in the next flood.
sailsmen
12-23-2007, 10:19 AM
Sa what you want it makes no sense to use .75 to 1 gallon of petroleum to make a gallon of E85.
When you add in the increased trans cost it is not enviro friendly or economic friendly.
The only reason we have E85 being made is taxpayer provided subsidies and the farm lobby. Who is going to vote againest the farmer making fuel?
Only 15% of the Outer Continental Shelf is open to drilling. ANWAR smaller then the DC airport could repce Saudi Arabia.
sailsmen
12-23-2007, 10:26 AM
I have three basements being delivered here. That's right, I said basements. Due to the floods this summer I was lucky enough to high-jack some trucks on their way to the dump with the basements of three homes. I intend to use them to shore up my creek so I don't lose more farmland in the next flood.
I would not advertise that unless the DEQ and EPA have permitted it.:mad2: You may be sitting in jail on Christmas and it's hard to get bail on Christmas.
Have you had this Rip Rap tested for enviro and have you had an enviro impact statement done?:confused:
People using foundations as Rip Rap were I live were fined and threatned w/ jail as being contaminated.
It's absolutley incredible that the TAX PAYERS are paying for half the cost of an Ethanol plant. The tax payers are not paying for half the cost of an oil refinery.:mad:
Leadfoot281
12-23-2007, 12:55 PM
Sa what you want it makes no sense to use .75 to 1 gallon of petroleum to make a gallon of E85.
When you add in the increased trans cost it is not enviro friendly or economic friendly.
The only reason we have E85 being made is taxpayer provided subsidies and the farm lobby. Who is going to vote againest the farmer making fuel?
Only 15% of the Outer Continental Shelf is open to drilling. ANWAR smaller then the DC airport could repce Saudi Arabia.
I'd love to see some accurate, unbiased info on the the cost of manufacturing E-85. I'm not doubting you one bit. I just want to see the figures.
Sure, tax payers are helping build E-85 refinerys. They also get to buy fuel for $1/gallon less than what they're currently paying...except me. There still isn't an E-85 tune for the Marauder. If there was, I could fill it up for $40 instead of $60. That is a benefit to tax payers.
Heck, the second farmers start making money, everything goes up. Tractor prices, both new and used, are going through the roof because we finally have some money. Fine. I know one tractor dealer that's NOT hunting here next season.
High corn prices are actually working against ethanol. High gas prices work in favor of it. Corn prices are high due to manufacturing/transportation costs. It will remain that way until fossil fuel prices drop. This is economics 101.
As far as the rip rap goes, well, I'm shoring up a levee here. One that has been grandfathered in. I'm well within my legal right to do so. The state will be lucky if I don't send them a bill for it. The management of this creek/flood plain is their responsability. I have it in writting from the DNR. In fact, much of the severity of the flood this summer was due in large part to the states lack of maintenace on this creek.
sailsmen
12-23-2007, 02:02 PM
I am glad you are legally able to shore up the levee w/ rip rap from construction debris. That's the way it should be.:D:
I was just giving you a warning on some real life stuff.:bigcry:
I will see what I can find on mfg E85.
We placed the insurance on one of the first alternatice fuel plants in the country. They went away when the subsidy went away when gas prices dropped.
Leadfoot281
12-23-2007, 05:08 PM
I'd have to think that loooong before any ethanol plant was ever built, that someone sat down and did some calculations. Some one, some where knows exactly how many BTU's it takes to get ethanol from corn.
There must have been a scale model and then full scale working prototypes. That should have been thoroughly tested inside and out, top to bottom. Every BTU, kilowatt hour, ect should have been accounted for.
I'll eat my hat if there's been 100's of ethanol plants built and no one knows if the idea will even work. That's a bold statement... I love my hat.
Cars get tested. Engineers know what the MPG is going to be before it hits the showroom floor. They know what they'll do in a crash before they hit the assembly line. It just stands to reason that someone did their homework on this.
How would you like to be the guy that designed an ethanol plant that takes 1 gallon of gas to make one gallon of ethanol? If that turns out to be the case, there isn't a safe place on Earth for him.
There is just too much iffy info floating around. And far too much pessimism.
Leadfoot281
12-23-2007, 05:40 PM
It's absolutley incredible that the TAX PAYERS are paying for half the cost of an Ethanol plant. The tax payers are not paying for half the cost of an oil refinery.:mad:
"You can pay a little extra now, or a lot more later."
What happens if some Saudi King decides that his net worth of $500billion is enough and pulls the plug on our oil supply?
No oil=no military. No military=No America.
Alternative fuels is, IMO, absolutely critical to this nations security. I don't care if E-85 can only replace a portion of our needs. Who here thinks Hilter would have turned it down as his Panzers were running on fumes?
I just wonder if E85 is going to be a stopgap. Even though Congress has mandated it's production, there are still numerous obstacles, transportation being the main one. And even though the Feds mandate it, that doesn't mean the public will accept it (see $2 bill). The race is on now between the OEMs for hydrogen-powered vehicles. Honda, Ford, and BMW already have them in limited numbers on the streets. GM is almost there. Refueling stations are, again, a big stumbling block. I totally agree with Leadfoot that alternative fuels are vital to our country. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
Dennis Reinhart
12-24-2007, 06:35 PM
I just wonder if E85 is going to be a stopgap. Even though Congress has mandated it's production, there are still numerous obstacles, transportation being the main one. And even though the Feds mandate it, that doesn't mean the public will accept it (see $2 bill). The race is on now between the OEMs for hydrogen-powered vehicles. Honda, Ford, and BMW already have them in limited numbers on the streets. GM is almost there. Refueling stations are, again, a big stumbling block. I totally agree with Leadfoot that alternative fuels are vital to our country. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
We all want a cleaner environment, E85 right now is more expensive than 93 octane and is hard to find, until they can lower the cost why would you buy it, when 93 will do the same, the other issue with E85, is yes the car manufactures have to set up alternative fuels for the new cars just like the flex fuel cars, but these cars are designed to run the custom blend fuels the fuel pumps lines and injectors can take the change, older cars can not. The alcohol attacks and breaks down the rubber, so for now, we have to use what is available.
Around here, we don't have 93 octane any more. And E85 is quite a bit cheaper than gasoline, especially 91 octane.
Vortech347
12-31-2007, 01:12 AM
I would run E85 on a track specific car with correct fuel system. To little places to fill up. There are 2 here in Utah, I live like 2 miles from one of them. I've got a friend thats been adding 1 gallon of E85 to a tank in his 03 to help hinder detonation. So far so good. Although I'm not gona do it... :D
Shora
12-31-2007, 02:44 AM
Sure, tax payers are helping build E-85 refinerys. They also get to buy fuel for $1/gallon less than what they're currently paying...except me. There still isn't an E-85 tune for the Marauder. If there was, I could fill it up for $40 instead of $60. That is a benefit to tax payers.
How can you say that E85 saves us from some Saudi Shmuck if it takes almost a gallon of gas to produce the E85? It just doesn't make ANY sense. We just use their oil to produce E85 instead of using it directly. Do not forget that E85 is indeed more difficult to transport, drives up the cost of food, and will take a hell of a lot more farms growing corn to make enough to supply the USA in large amounts.
Lastly, while E85 is cheaper per gallon, it is also greatly more inefficient in an internal combustion engine and nets LESS MILES PER GALLON THAN GAS. From what I understand, it is about 20% less efficient so unless it costs over 20% less then gas, you are not saving *****.
E85, under the current production processes, just shows how dumb we Americans are supporting a program that does nothing about:
-Lowering our dependence on foreign oil (we use almost the same amount of gas inorder to make it)
-Lowering pollution (we use almost the same amount of gas, read burn, to make it and WHAT ABOUT THE ADDITIONAL GAS USED TO TRANSPORT IT?)
-Saving us money. (It is 20% less efficient and nets 20% less MPG yet it isn't always 20% cheaper than gas. Also, it brings up the costs of other products so we spend more over all as a result of this product.)
The E85 program is a scam and we are all fools for allowing this corrupt program to continue.
Leadfoot281
12-31-2007, 04:01 AM
20% less efficient. Fine. It's 2/3rd's the cost of pump gas here. I'll give you 20% of $10 if you give me 1/3rd of $10. How's that sound?
That's my math. Where is yours?
No one said we could replace ALL of our national fuel needs with it. I think getting 5,10 or 20 states OFF imported oil is a good idea. Don't you?
I suppose all gigantic, globe trekking, super tankers are nuclear powered these days huh?
SHOW ME THE MATH.
Marauderjack
12-31-2007, 04:11 AM
The entire world cannot grow enough grain to make enough alcohol to make a dent in the oil business world wide....period!!:shake:
The big oil companies WANT E-85 instead of HYDROGEN for obvious reasons!!!:argue:
I'm working with a group in Florida that builds "On Board" Hydrogen generators for Diesel trucks right now!!:banana: Currently showing 15%-25% improvement in fuel economy with the most basic units!!:beer::bows:
Stay tuned.......;)
Marauderjack:bandit:
So we'll be seeing a hydrogen retrofit kit for the MM in a couple of years. I'm OK with that.
:beer:
Vortech347
01-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Forget that. DR needs to make us have Nuclear power. I know he can do it. He has the technology and skill.
Shora
01-01-2008, 03:24 PM
20% less efficient. Fine. It's 2/3rd's the cost of pump gas here. I'll give you 20% of $10 if you give me 1/3rd of $10. How's that sound?
That's my math. Where is yours?
No one said we could replace ALL of our national fuel needs with it. I think getting 5,10 or 20 states OFF imported oil is a good idea. Don't you?
I suppose all gigantic, globe trekking, super tankers are nuclear powered these days huh?
SHOW ME THE MATH.
There is very little E85 in my State but I am willing to bet that in most locations E85 offers little savings to compensate for the 20% of less efficiency. I don't have National Numbers but I am sure that you don't either.
Again, how are you going to get ANY States off of imported oil by way of E85 if it takes almost 1 gallon of the said imported oil to make 1 gallon of the E85?
Show me the math!
Also, show me how you end up saving any money if the price of food and other products go up because of this program?
Show me the math!
This program is a scam and will not last. However, that is not to say that the American public isn't going to be milked for their hard earned money as a result of this BS program. (Our fault for being so stupid and helpless by not doing anything about it.)
The only true replacement for the high use of oil would be a Hydrogen program. If our politicians spent the resources being wasted on the criminal E85 program on a legitimate Hydrogen program we might actually find a real and honest alternative to the oil from those Middle Eastern....
captain
01-01-2008, 04:13 PM
Nuke-in the Merc?
Remind Dennis to put that big "Bat Mobile" exhaust tip on it!!! Dare we do dual exhaust??? Chrome tips??? I want one of them flame throwin sum of a beaches.
Leadfoot281
01-02-2008, 01:58 AM
There is very little E85 in my State but I am willing to bet that in most locations E85 offers little savings to compensate for the 20% of less efficiency. I don't have National Numbers but I am sure that you don't either.
Again, how are you going to get ANY States off of imported oil by way of E85 if it takes almost 1 gallon of the said imported oil to make 1 gallon of the E85?
Show me the math!
Also, show me how you end up saving any money if the price of food and other products go up because of this program?
Show me the math!
This program is a scam and will not last. However, that is not to say that the American public isn't going to be milked for their hard earned money as a result of this BS program. (Our fault for being so stupid and helpless by not doing anything about it.)
The only true replacement for the high use of oil would be a Hydrogen program. If our politicians spent the resources being wasted on the criminal E85 program on a legitimate Hydrogen program we might actually find a real and honest alternative to the oil from those Middle Eastern....
Wow! You really need to relax! Why don't you start by re-reading the first couple pages of this thread. Pay attention to the part where I claimed I don't have the answers. Notice where I asked for VALID, UNBIASED, SCIENTIFIC, INFORMATION.
I put my money where my mouth is. There's $100 waiting for the first person that can prove to me that E-85 leads to higher food prices. This offer doesn't go both ways. The burden of proof is on you, not me (unless you don't want my money). If that's the case, just keep posting your rhetoric.
Until someone posts factually accurate information, I'm outta this thread.
Dragcity
01-02-2008, 10:49 AM
I haven't been posting much lately. I really don't want to offend anyone. I honestly really like all you people on this site.
With that being written... I do have a relatively strong opinion on this subject. I am not an engineer, economist, farmer or any other type of professional guru so to speak. I do know how fermentation and distilling works.
This is the way I understand this E-85 thing: (please don't be hating me).
E-85 is not an energy SOURCE, it is manufactured... Thus, it takes more natural resources to make. In my opinion, a very humble opinion, that does not make good ecological or economical sense. I am a master of fermenting things. The heat needed to mash the corn, sparge the corn, and then distill the roughly 18% to 85% has to come from somewhere. Probably Propane or Natural gas, which are both sources of energy. They can both be used as fuel in autos. At a 20% reduction in performance from gasoline, as I understand it....
On a good note, E-85 it is keeping US farmers PRODUCING... Leadfoot, help me out here, I think the Gov't subsidizes, on occasion, for farmers to NOT produce?
Another good, very good, point is it puts America into a production cycle again. Remember when we used to produce things in this country?????
Personally, I think E-85 is a waste of our natural resources. I think too much "Energy" goes into producing this 'alternative' fuel output. Yes, I am sure feasability/profitabilty studies have been done. But remember, the Gov't is kicking in big time for this, thus a profitable venture for plant owners, farmers, employees and investors. Is this sustainable??? I don't know.... The Gov't will get their seed $$ back in higher taxes along the way, don't ya' think.?
I think it is Brazil that is making this work, using sugar cane or something. It is way easier to get fermentables (= alcohol) out of sugar cane than corn. Thus, less energy goes in to get energy out....Problem is, we can't grow sugar cane but in a few places in the US. {A major US beer company uses lots of corn in their mash.}
I have heard discussion on burning the stalks, husks and cobs to create the heat needed for processing, but isn't that bad for the environment?? Aids in the dreaded 'Global Warming' !!!????
There is obviously no easy remedy. In 20 - 30 years there will be an efffective alternative. Seems to me, right now, we are scrambleing to find a quick fix, a patch if you will. I think we will find ourselves wiping out one resource, to try to save another. Maybe in 30 years we will all have mini nuclear reactors the size of an i-Pod that we can use to power our car, bring it to work and power our office, take it home and power all the things in our house.
The key to all this is utilizing Energy Sources (Sun - Wind - Water - Propane - Natural Gas - Oil - Coal - how about Lightening...?) to power our "stuff", not wasting resources trying to create inneficient alternatives.
I really hope I don't offend anyone, really. Just writing what I feel, and what makes sense to me.
Dragcity
01-02-2008, 10:59 AM
Here is a quick article in SUPPORT of Leadfoot. Seems we are using less corn as feed, as the waste from E-85 makes for good feed for livestock. I know the spent barley we generate in making beer is actually better for pigs to eat than raw barley. Better for their digestive system without sacrificing protien.. go figure?
http://www.farmdoc.uiuc.edu/marketing/grainoutlook/html/071807/071807.html
Shora
01-02-2008, 12:11 PM
Wow! You really need to relax! Why don't you start by re-reading the first couple pages of this thread. Pay attention to the part where I claimed I don't have the answers. Notice where I asked for VALID, UNBIASED, SCIENTIFIC, INFORMATION.
I put my money where my mouth is. There's $100 waiting for the first person that can prove to me that E-85 leads to higher food prices. This offer doesn't go both ways. The burden of proof is on you, not me (unless you don't want my money). If that's the case, just keep posting your rhetoric.
Until someone posts factually accurate information, I'm outta this thread.
You ask for valid, unbiased, scientific information yet you PROVIDE NONE. I did read every post in this thread before posting and I did not see a single quote from you where you provided any of the valid, unbiased, scientific information you seek others to provide inorder to post so please save your hypocrisy for people who are used to dealing with you.
Also, why do you always feel that people need or even want your dirty money? It boggles my mind to think that there are people in this world who honestly think others see them as special when they offer all of a $100. Keep your money, just provide some of what you ask for (valid, unbiased, scientific information) before you criticize others.
Lastly, don't tell people what to do. More specifically, don't tell me what to do! I am very relaxed and even if I were not, I have 100 Big Ones saying you won't dare to try and make me.
You are right; you should stay out of this thread.
I'll end with your foolish and hypocritical words: SHOW ME THE MATH!!
Breadfan
01-02-2008, 12:24 PM
Anyone who offers me $100 is special.
Dragcity
01-02-2008, 12:50 PM
Ethanol gains momentum but needs more pumps
<SCRIPT>queryvar="ethanol,gains,momentum,but,nee ds,more,pumps";</SCRIPT>Richard Truett (rtruett@crain.com)
Automotive News
February 20, 2006 - 12:01 am ET
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width=240>http://caimg.sv.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CA&Date=20060220&Category=FREE&ArtNo=60217020&Ref=AR&Profile=1003&maxw=240&border=0&Q=80
ENLARGE
(http://javascript<b></b>:var n=1)
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=240>Only 608 of 168,987 U.S. filling stations have ethanol pumps.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width=320 align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=an_body1 vAlign=top>The E85 debate
Benefits</B>
<LI type=square>High octane increases performance
<LI type=square>Costs less than gasoline
<LI type=square>Reduces pollution
<LI type=square>Reduces dependence on imported oil
Drawbacks</B>
<LI type=square>Lack of availability; only 608 pumps in 36 states
<LI type=square>E85 has less energy than gasoline; more frequent fill-ups needed
<LI type=square>Consumers may be hesitant to use a fuel they don't know about
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
President Bush wants it. Congress passed a law calling for more of it. Automakers are promoting it.
Now drivers need a place to get it.
Of the nation's 168,987 gasoline stations, only 608 offer ethanol pumps for flexible-fuel vehicles.
But momentum is building for E85 -- the blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline -- as a way to reduce the nation's reliance on imported oil and a way to reduce tailpipe emissions.
E85-capable flexible-fuel vehicles, or FFVs, that run on either gasoline or an ethanol mix have been available since the mid-1990s. Automakers already have produced about 5 million FFVs in the United States. But because there are so few E85 pumps, not many vehicles actually run on the home-grown fuel.
Opinions differ over how fast the ethanol infrastructure can expand.
The number of filling stations selling E85 will increase slowly, and most will be in the Midwest, says John Hartmann, a petroleum equipment consultant in McHenry, Ill. Hartmann says he believes E85 eventually will become a mainstream fuel.
"It takes 15 years for one fuel to take the place of another fuel. That was the case with unleaded (gasoline)," he says.
This month, both General Motors and Ford Motor Co. launched initiatives that will increase the number of E85 pumps in the Midwest.
Ford will help fund the installation of E85 pumps in Illinois and Missouri, and GM will try to raise consumer awareness of E85 through marketing and advertising.
"If you look right now, there's a lot of talk about flexible-fuel vehicles. You are seeing ads for them on TV," says Al Mannato, fuel issues manager for the American Petroleum Institute. "Well, the reality is, there are millions of these vehicles out there, but there is no demand for this product."
The ethanol toolbox
The ethanol used to make E85 comes mostly from corn. One bushel of corn produces 2.8 gallons of ethanol. The corn is ground into a powder, which is treated with water, enzymes and ammonia. It is heated and stirred, then cooled before yeast is added. That starts the process of converting sugars in the "mash" into alcohol. There are a few more steps before the ethanol is ready to be mixed with gasoline.
The bottom line: Making E85 is an energy-intensive process. Researchers are divided over whether ethanol is an energy loser. It can be if the corn has to be shipped long distances to an ethanol plant. Much of the cost-effectiveness of producing ethanol depends on where the refinery is. In Brazil, many of the refineries are located where sugar cane -- another source for ethanol -- is grown, reducing transportation costs.
The ethanol is trucked in pure form to petroleum terminals, where it is mixed with gasoline and then delivered to the 608 filling stations.
Brazil, which is expected to wean itself from oil imports this year, has been burning ethanol made from sugar cane since the first fuel crisis of the 1970s. Prices below $20 per barrel of oil for many years forced the Brazilian government to subsidize ethanol production.
But gains in technology brought down the cost of ethanol production. Now Brazil earns export dollars selling the fuel to other countries.
Of Brazil's 16.5 million vehicles, more than 4.3 million run on ethanol. About 75 percent of all vehicles sold there in 2006 will be FFVs.
In the United States, 98 plants were capable of producing about 4 billion gallons of ethanol a year as of November, according to the Renewable Fuels Association.
Four billion gallons sounds like a lot, but it's a small drop in the nation's gas tank. Americans use roughly 140 billion gallons of gasoline annually.
Under the schedule set out in the Energy Policy Act, which was signed by President Bush on Aug. 5, the government projects ethanol production will rise to 7.5 billion gallons a year by 2012. Several ethanol producers, such as Archer Daniels Midland Co. and Cargill Inc., are boosting production. The administration hopes tax credits for ethanol producers and for fuel station operators who install ethanol pumps will create incentives to make the fuel more available.
The cost to add an E85 pump to a station could range from a few dollars to change the signs on the pump to as much as $240,000 if a new tank needs to be installed along with a new pump, according to Shell Oil Co.
VeraSun Energy of Brookings, S.D., is the nation's second-largest producer of ethanol and has partnered with GM and Ford to expand the availability of E85.
"We believe we will see more pumps put outside the Midwest in the very near future," said Bill Honnef, VeraSun's vice president of sales and marketing. "When the president says E85 is one avenue that can reduce oil imports, it certainly gets people's attention."
As of December, E85 was available in 36 states, with a majority of the fuel pumps concentrated in Minnesota, Illinois, Nebraska and the Dakotas.
The ethanol CAFE
GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler and Nissan offer flexible-fuel vehicles that can run on either E85 or gasoline. Ford has been building FFVs since 1993 and has made more than 1.6 million. GM plans to put about 400,000 FFVs on the road in 2006.
Automakers have a strong motivation for offering FFVs. They can claim Corporate Average Fuel Economy, or CAFE, credits of up to 1.2 mpg. Those credits help them avoid fines for selling vehicles with poor fuel economy.
Enabling a vehicle to burn E85 isn't an expensive undertaking, says Chris Meagher, GM assistant chief engineer of small-block engines.
All that is needed are new higher-capacity fuel injectors, fuel lines made of stainless steel instead of aluminum and new computer software that keeps the engine running properly on the higher-octane fuel.
E85 is rated at 105 to 113 octane, compared with 87 for regular gasoline. Depending on the vehicle, a different fuel tank might be needed.
E85's higher octane can add horsepower, Meagher says. But because the energy contained in E85 is lower than that of gasoline, fuel economy drops between 5 and 15 percent.
The pump price for E85 varies from state to state because of taxes, subsidies and other factors.
Dragcity
01-02-2008, 01:09 PM
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Value-Added Agricultural Products - Food, Non-Food, Fiber, Fuel
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Questions and Answers about E85 and Flexible Fuel Vehicles
<CENTER><TABLE width=640 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>What is Ethanol?
Ethanol is alcohol used in transportation fuels. It is a high octane, liquid, domestic and renewable fuel, produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. In the United States, ethanol is typically produced from corn and other grain products, although in the future it may be economically produced from other biomass resources such as agricultural and forestry wastes or specially grown energy crops. In Iowa, ethanol is produced from corn, at 4 state-of-the-art facilities.
What is E85?
E85 is the term for motor fuel blends of up to 85 percent ethanol and just 15 percent gasoline. E85 is an alternative fuel as defined by the U.S. Department of Energy.
Why should we use ethanol?
Besides its superior performance characteristics, ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline; it is a completely renewable, domestic, environment friendly fuel that enhances the nation’s economy and energy security. Today the U. S. imports more than half of its oil, and overall consumption continues to increase. By supporting ethanol production and use, U.S. drivers can help reverse that trend.
85% ethanol can reduce pollution. Government tests have shown that E85 vehicles reduce harmful hydrocarbon and benzene emissions when compared to vehicles running on gasoline.
E85 can also reduce carbon dioxide (CO2), a harmful greenhouse gas and a major contributor to global warming. Although CO2 is released during ethanol production and combustion, it is recaptured as a nutrient to the crops that are used in its production. Unlike fossil fuel combustion, which unlocks carbon that has been stored for millions of years, use of ethanol results in low increases to the carbon cycle.
Ethanol also degrades quickly in water and, therefore, poses much less risk to the environment than an oil or gasoline spill. What is a flexible fuel vehicle?
A flexible fuel vehicle (FFV) is specially designed to run on any ethanol blend up to 85% ethanol. Special onboard diagnostics "read" the fuel blend, enabling drivers to fuel with E85 or gasoline in any combination from a single tank. There are no switches to flip, no mixing or blending. The computer adjusts the FFV’s fuel injection and ignition timing to compensate for the different fuel mixtures.
What happens when E85 is not available?
The FFV system allows the driver to use any combination of gasoline or ethanol—from 100 percent unleaded gasoline to 85 percent ethanol. A driver can therefore use unleaded gasoline if ethanol is not available.
What are the differences in an FFV compared to a regular gasoline-only model? Are different parts used?
There is only one major additional part that is included on an FFV—the fuel sensor that detects the ethanol/gasoline ratio. A number of other parts on the FFV’s fuel delivery system are modified so that they are ethanol compatible. The fuel tank, fuel lines, fuel injectors, computer system, anti-siphon device and dashboard gauges have been modified slightly. Alcohols are corrosive. Therefore, any part that comes in contact with the fuel has been upgraded to be tolerant to alcohol. Normally, these parts include a stainless steel fuel tank and Teflon lined fuel hoses.
Does an FFV cost more than a gasoline-only model?
When manufacturers offer a flexible fuel engine as an option in their vehicles, there is no additional cost. In model year 1998, manufacturers began making flexible fuel engines standard equipment on certain makes and models, therefore with a specific model you can only get an E85 flexible fuel engine—no gasoline-only engines are available, therefore no additional cost is incurred.
What is the range of a flexible fuel ethanol vehicle?
Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 100 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 5% to 15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on temperature and driving conditions. For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%.
Research indicates Ford FFVs experience a 5% horsepower gain on E85.
The range of any particular vehicle is dependent on the size of the fuel tank and driving habits. Current Ford Taurus FFVs have an 18-gallon fuel tank and will normally travel 350 miles between refuelings.
Can a car be retrofitted or converted to use E85?
We do not recommend the conversion of a gasoline-only vehicle to operate on E85. FFVs that come with original equipment from the manufacturer have the same warranties as gasoline vehicles and they are specially suited to use E85 as efficiently as possible and to burn cleaner.
Are repairs and maintenance costs for FFVs any different than they are for gasoline?
No, the costs are roughly the same as regular auto repairs and maintenance. An FFV does run cleaner and, therefore, some maintenance costs may actually be reduced in the long run. One FFV model line still required a special, higher-lubricating oil in model year 2000.
How much ethanol does the U.S. have?
Today, U.S. ethanol producers have the capacity to produce nearly 2 billion gallons each year. Ethanol is a renewable resource that is primarily made from corn, other grains and waste products.
Will we deplete human and animal food supplies by using corn and other grains for fuel production?
No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.
Does it take more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy we get out of it?
No. Current research indicates an approximate 38% gain in the overall corn-to-ethanol process and use of that ethanol for fuel. Corn yields and processing technologies have improved significantly over the past 20 years and they continue to do so, making ethanol production less and less energy intensive.
What is the octane rating of E85 compared to gasoline?
Regular unleaded gasoline has an octane rating of 87; E85 has an octane rating ranging from 100-105 making it a high performance fuel. Ford FFVs produce a 5% horsepower gain when using E85.
Is E85 more toxic or dangerous than gasoline?
No. 100% ethanol can be and is ingested by human beings. The fuel ethanol must be "denatured" with gasoline or a bitter agent to prevent ingestion. Also, ethanol does not contain the harmful carcinogens and toxins found in gasoline.
If E85 is spilled on the ground, can it contaminate ground water?
Ethanol is water soluble, non-toxic and biodegradable. E85 contains roughly 80% less of the potential contaminates found in gasoline.
Will I hurt a gasoline-only vehicle if I use E85?
Yes. Longer-term use of E85 in gasoline-only vehicles may cause damage because of the incompatibility of the alcohol fuel with the parts in gasoline-only engines. Performance and emissions will also be compromised.
What is the price of E85?
As is the case with all forms of fuel, the larger the number of outlets, typically, the more competitively priced is the fuel. E85 is priced to be competitive with 87-octane gasoline. In Iowa, prices typically range about 8-10 cents more than regular unleaded.
Source: Iowa Corn Promotion Board - Reprinted with Permission
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Leadfoot281
01-02-2008, 01:30 PM
You ask for valid, unbiased, scientific information yet you PROVIDE NONE. I did read every post in this thread before posting and I did not see a single quote from you where you provided any of the valid, unbiased, scientific information you seek others to provide inorder to post so please save your hypocrisy for people who are used to dealing with you.
Also, why do you always feel that people need or even want your dirty money? (dirty money? What's this? Am I in the Mafia or something?) It boggles my mind to think that there are people in this world who honestly think others see them as special when they offer all of a $100. Keep your money, just provide some of what you ask for (valid, unbiased, scientific information) before you criticize others. I posted a $100 reward for information. I did it for the benefit of both me AND the members of the site. People pay for information all the time. It's usually called college. I did this to end this E-85 debate once and for all. Once the facts are known, the debate will be over. Until then this E-85 debate is just another Sasquatch story. No proof on either side of the arguement.
Lastly, don't tell people what to do. (Wow! Are you telling me what to do? Thanks! I love irony!) More specifically, don't tell me what to do! I am very relaxed and even if I were not, I have 100 Big Ones saying you won't dare to try and make me.
You are right; you should stay out of this thread. I would have but Joe posted a link and I need to check it out.
I'll end with your foolish and hypocritical words: SHOW ME THE MATH!!
I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone. My opinion is just as valid as yours. Prove I'm right. Prove you're right. I don't care how you wanna go about it. Post proof for the members here to see and end this debate once and for all. I've been wrong before and that's why I posted a $100 bounty on the truth instead of $1,000.
Thanks for the input Joe. I'm going to look over that site you posted a link to.
Shora
01-02-2008, 01:39 PM
What is the price of E85?
As is the case with all forms of fuel, the larger the number of outlets, typically, the more competitively priced is the fuel. E85 is priced to be competitive with 87-octane gasoline. In Iowa, prices typically range about 8-10 cents more than regular unleaded.
I hope this info is wrong because if it is correct the problem is worse then I thought.
I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone. My opinion is just as valid as yours.
This is where we agree.
Dragcity
01-02-2008, 01:47 PM
There is a lot to be learned on the E-85 stuff.
Who knows how it will all shake out in the end. I know my 2002 Sable is a FFV.
The big question is what to do with my 1965 T-Bird.? I would like to know BEFORE I rebuild the 390....
So back to the original question.... What's it take to be E-85 compatible?
-No plastic in contact with E-85
-Is aluminum a no-no too?
-Larger injectors...
-Higher volume fuel pump?
-Special EEC tuning...
Good new is, you can carry a bunch of Vodka with you and just say it's in case I run out of fuel......(or get thirsy)
Leadfoot281
01-03-2008, 12:24 AM
There was a roll over accident last year involving a tractor-trailer rig loaded with umptteen thousands of gallons of E-85. All of it spilled in a large grassy feild. The wreck was removed and a clean up crew sent in a few hours later. The clean up crew couldn't locate the spill. They couldn't see any ecological damage at all.
I guess this is what they call bad for the environment. Apparently oil feilds, off-shore drilling platforms, and petroleum refinerys are much cleaner than I thought.
I don't know about E-85 prices in Iowa. I'm 40 miles from there. I'll go check one day if I can find a good reason to go. One things for certain though; If it costs more than regular pump gas, people won't use it.
Around here you can't swing a cat without hitting an E-85 pump and it's generally $1/gallon cheaper.
Now Shora, maybe you can explain to me what you meant by calling my money "dirty". Are you talking "E-85 dirty" or "petroleum dirty"?
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