Wheel knockoff - literally!

[racorcey]

I was never able to remove the wheels from my car for cleaning. At 40k miles, those (not-so) little suckers would not budge from the hubs. While I have a pretty damn good tool collection, I couldn't find anything that I could use that wouldn't damage something. Not to mention that I would have to do this laying on the ground - not a great solution.

The techie changing my tires today obviously managed to get the wheels off the rusty hubs. I never knew steel rust could stick like glue to aluminum. He claims he used a 4 pound rubber mallet. I've never seen one that large!

Anyway, when I get home, I plan on re-torquing the wheels, as well as taking them off to put something there that will hopefully keep them from sticking to the hubs again.

I'm sure this problem has caused headaches for most of you. What did you guys do to try to prevent this problem from occuring again? I did a search, but didn't see anything that was sufficiently satisfying.

Also, do you guys have any particular wheel lug torque you like to use, for better or worse?

[SlkMerc]

ALthough shes no longer, I used some antiseize where the hub of the wheel meets the axles. It sure was easy to get off once I applied it. Ive also heard some good waterproof grease works well too.

[magindat]

A VERY THIN coat of anti seize and torque to 80-90 ft-lbs.

I also lightly anti seize the threads to slow rust and get a better, easier torque.

[Egon Spengler]

Anti-Sieze is the best stuff to use... put it on your lug studs and hit the face of the rotor with it at the same time and they won't sieze... a little goes a long way... I torqques around 85 ftlbs... don't know what it should be, but I figure that is a good number and is good for an aluminum wheel

[Egon Spengler]

Apparently you chimed in at the same time as I did "magindat", apparently we think alike... "IMAGINE THAT!!!"

[RF Overlord]

Factory-recommended torque for the lug nuts is 95 ft/lbs.

[fastblackmerc]

Factory-recommended torque for the lug nuts is 95 ft/lbs.
Found this:
"I suggest not putting ANYTHING on threads if it acts as a lubricant and the required torque is high. Having said that, I use anti-sieze compound on spark plugs.

I once worked with an engineer whose previous job was writing software for a "bolt tightening measuring whatsit" to be used by NASA. The intent was to measure the tension forces on a tightened bolt by measuring the lengthwise stretch of the bolt as it was tightened. The method was ultrasonic transducers, microprocessors, and software. It worked nicely.

What developed from their research was that the relationship between the torque applied to the bolt and the lengthwise tension forces induced thereby is highly dependent on the condition of the threads. For example, if the threads are dirty and/or rusted, it can require a high torque just to turn the bolt, much less tighten it. The problem with anti-sieze compound is that it lubricates the threads, which can result in a very much higher tension in the bolt than the torque used to tighten it would provide with clean, dry threads. So, if you put it on your lug bolts and tighten it to the recommended 83 ft-lbs of torque, you could break the stud, or the wheel, or both, or you could warp the brake drum, the hub, or the disk.

I understand the desire to use anti-sieze compound on lug bolts. I once broke a lug off while taking a lug not OFF because it siezed up. Since then, I've made sure I have clean, dry, rust-free threads before putting a lug nut on, and I've never had a problem since."

And this:
"My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases. Of course, any given case will be different, depending on the lubricant used, the thread pitch, and so on. But, you could be using up nearly all your safety margin and not know it. I hope your luck holds.

I'll stick with clean, dry threads. That's what the torque specs were made for and, as you say, it's worked for me."

From Tire Racks website:
"Once you have completed your test fit, we suggest removing the wheel and applying a thin coating of "antiseize" around the axle hubs to help prevent rust and permit easier removal when it's time to rotate your tires. Do not apply "antiseize" to the lug hardware or studs."

From Dodge Forum:
"Antiseize makes it nearly impossible to accurately torque the lugs. Its lubricating effects allow the lugs to be tightened further than they should be, which can lead to uneven torque among the studs, overtorquing, and potentially damage to the wheel or studs. It is not the end of the world, but it is definitely not optimal."

Another website:
"WARNING: DO NOT USE OIL, GREASE, ANTI-SEIZE OR LUBRICANTS OF ANY KIND WHEN TIGHTENING LUG NUTS!

Proper torque on lug nuts is very important for three reasons. One is to keep the lug nuts from loosening up and the wheel coming loose, another is to prevent distortion of the brake rotor behind the wheel, and a third is to prevent broken studs. A torque wrench should be used for final tightening of the lug nuts, and the nuts should always be torqued to the recommended specifications.

CAUTION: Torque specifications for lug nuts are always for CLEAN and DRY studs and lug nuts. That means no oil, no grease, no anti-seize and no lubricants of any kind. Any of these products will reduce the friction between the threads. This may seem like a good thing to prevent rust and frozen lug nuts, but the reduction in friction means a much higher percentage of the applied torque (up to 25% or more) will go toward loading the lug nuts. The end result may be brake rotor distortion or broken studs!

Wheel studs should be cleaned with a wire brush to remove rust and dirt BEFORE the wheels are mounted. If the lug nuts are heavily rusted or have damaged threads and won't turn easily on the studs, replace the lug nuts. The same goes for any wheel studs with damaged or badly corroded threads. And remember to mount the wheels DRY with nothing on the threads."

[MCAT]

I know this will sound a little "Billy Bam hamerish"
if I ever come upon stuck rims like that
I put the lugs bag on & leave them a little loose,
put the car back on the ground & roll the car back
& jab the brakes to crack the rims free from the hubs
works every time, just be carefull, then like stated above
use antiseaze & never have that problem again.

[ledzilla]

I have had the same issue when removing my wheels (for cleaning off gear oil, painting the rotors...). My old man has also had these issues with Town Cars he used for work, and he recommends using a few dabs of grease on the hub. He said it always worked well for him. I can't say because my dumb self forgot to grease 'em up before putting the wheels back on.

[KillJoy]

Clean the Hub.

Degrease the Hub.

Apply anti-seize to the Hub.

Install Wheel.

:up:

KillJoy

[lifespeed]

Found this:
"I suggest not putting ANYTHING on threads if it acts as a lubricant and the required torque is high.What developed from their research was that the relationship between the torque applied to the bolt and the lengthwise tension forces induced thereby is highly dependent on the condition of the threads. For example, if the threads are dirty and/or rusted, it can require a high torque just to turn the bolt, much less tighten it. The problem with anti-sieze compound is that it lubricates the threads, which can result in a very much higher tension in the bolt than the torque used to tighten it would provide with clean, dry threads. So, if you put it on your lug bolts and tighten it to the recommended 83 ft-lbs of torque, you could break the stud, or the wheel, or both, or you could warp the brake drum, the hub, or the disk.

Head bolts and main bearing studs are torqued WITH oil for the reasons you described. This is the best way to get a consistent torque, rather than relying on some uncertain amount of dirt and rust for a 'fudge factor'.

That said, torque with a lubricant should be less than dry. I use antisieze on my lugs also, and just torque them less than 95 lb*ft.

[snowbird]

Although I can easily concour with Nasa engineers, they work with operating room clean stuff in sub tropical environment. Up here in Canada, we have that thing called "winter" !

I do use antiseize as it is cheaper than torch down the rims in pieces with their brakes components off !

[CRUZTAKER]

I use cental office switch grease...:D
Thicker than vasoline, and torque to 100.

I had a wheel get stuck once....once...:P

[NRAUD]

I know this will sound a little "Billy Bam hamerish"
if I ever come upon stuck rims like that
I put the lugs bag on & leave them a little loose,
put the car back on the ground & roll the car back
& jab the brakes to crack the rims free from the hubs
works every time, just be carefull, then like stated above
use antiseaze & never have that problem again.

Same technique I used for the first removal of rims. No wrestling or hammering involved.

[FastMerc]

I learned along time ago with aluminum and magnesium wheels.So acouple of days after my car was home wheels came of and got greased.

[racorcey]

Well guys - a lot of good, useful info.

I do have to say, though, that greasing the lugs is probably something you normally don't want to do. It does affect the real torque. And BTW, that comes from both GM and Ford sources I've used over the years. On the other side of the coin, you would think they'd take the hint and allow some more clearance between the hubs and wheels to avoid this problem to begin with.

I spent more time yesterday taking off the wheels and cleaning/anti-seizing the hubs than it did for the techie to mount, balance, and align the car.

I used several wire brushes to clean off the hubs as best could be had, as well as wire-brushing the mating surface of each wheel. They even "dry-fit" better when I tested them before applying the anti-seize compound.

Needless to say, working at ground level, my body found muscles I didn't know I had. When you don't do this stuff daily....:o

As far as wheel lug torque goes, I was surprised to see the same torque listed in the book as the same for all type wheels - 95 lbs/ft. I guess I'm used to the GM stuff - about 75 for steel wheels, and 85-90 for alum wheels. When searching the archives here, I found everything from 80 to 100 lbs/ft. Obviously, the calibration of most tq wrenches is not going to be that accurate, so anything close (in that range) will do. What's more important is the sequence - and I'm sure you all know that anyway.

And one last detail - another reason for things taking so long....the front wheels came off with not too much effort, although you could see the problem starting all over again. The real problem happen to be with my left rear wheel. Couldn't bust that sucker off no-how! :mad: I finally used the "loose lug" approach, and it did eventually get to the point where I could dismount it. I'm always a little leary of this method, since I've seen aluminum wheel hub faces and lug holes damaged this way. But I did it a little at a time, and I could see the wheel working its way off slowly - at least to the point where I could put some muscle behind it to finish it. The right rear wheel wasn't quite as bad, but I still had to use some good muscle to get it off.

Thanks again to all of you for your great pointers and experiences!!:beer:

- Randy

[Merc-O-matic]

Use the universal cure.......WD-40
Light spray on hub and wheel and torque to #100.
No problems since.

Gotta Love It!

[PRCARGUY]

Thanks guys :bows:

[ImpalaSlayer]

when i went to take the 18s off and put the steelies on, the left rear was stuck on there so i just rolled one of the steelies into it to break it loose lol. kinda ghetto but it had enough mass to break it loose with out hurting the wheel