A FRPP Aluminator Forged DOHC Short Block - SC/NA

[Glenn]

Ford has finally released an aluminum DOHC forged short and long block engines for SC and N/A applications. These engines are 8.5 SC and 10.0 N/A compression. The Aluminator short blocks are listed for $4,500 which should be available at around $3,800 with some Ford contacts. The SC long blocks are $6,700 and N/A are $6,500. The specs on the engines look good. The N/A 10.0 engine has a Mach 1 front cover which should fit the MM. The SC 8.5 engine has a Cobra front cover. These engines look like an interesting alternative to building a forged engine or replacing a blown engine. See linky.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9678

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9871

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9570

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9870

Glenn :burnout:

[Loco1234]

very cool...
I will research further...

Now i only wish they'd come out with an Aluminium Block for a true 351C..
Not hybrid windsor stuff...
I need it for another project car involving a Detomaso Pantera...

[sailsmen]

Interesting.

They priced it the same as a Reman w/o the core credit.

[Vortech347]

JESUS!!! Thats insane...

You can build one yourself for 1/3rd that. We just got done building a teksid, manley roads, CP pistons, 10:1 comp shortblock for 2400.

[sailsmen]

I think you have the long and shor block prices confused.

$2,400 X 3 = $7,200.

[Drewstang]

Its crazy what they ask for them, but if you need a build motor now they have them. No waiting for the machine shop or mechanic to finish the build. Pull yours and install.

[hal510]

At modular depot they have the aluminator block for only 1850. I dont know if thats correct or not but that seems like a steal.

[Glenn]

Fellows keep in mind that these are LIST prices for these engines. NO body pays list for anything unless they have alot of money. You should be able to get a 20% discount on these engines just by calling the counter man by his first name and start talking to them or find someone who can get you the discount. It is not difficult to pay Ford parts at discount. With a little work you should be able to get the short block for $3,600. Then you also have your old short block to sell assuming you didn't blow it. So now your down to maybe $3,000.

Glenn

[sailsmen]

Modular Depot has a "block" for sale for $1,850.

There are "blocks", "short blocks" and "long blocks".

A Ford Reman "long block" for the Marauder is $4,211.52 based on a Core and for the '04 Cobra is $4,747.76 based on a Core.

If you add in the Core charge of $2,000 the above "new" prices from Ford are in line. Ford has a generous Core policy, so long as you have all the peices/parts. Thats right a ventilated block with the pieces will be accepted.

[Paul T. Casey]

http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/gt-cobra-shortblocks.shtml

Got him beat on price. If you look around you'll find this is a pretty good deal.

[Zack]

Sean Hyland products are garbage!

[GreekGod]

Sean Hyland products are garbage!

Anyone know what happened with that Federal agent that got ripped-off by S. Hyland?

[Paul T. Casey]

Sean Hyland products are garbage!

True dat, just put up for comparisson.

[lifespeed]

JESUS!!! Thats insane...

You can build one yourself for 1/3rd that. We just got done building a teksid, manley roads, CP pistons, 10:1 comp shortblock for 2400.

Yeah, but the Ford motor is backed by careful product testing (we hope) and a warranty.

While we all may think ourselves capable of properly assembling a performance engine, what about the parts we put into it? I lost one engine to forged Probe pistons that expanded far beyond their specified clearance and scored the cylinder walls simply by driving uphill in hot weather. No, the engine did not overheat. I double and triple-checked the cylinder wall clearance, it was above the 0.0022" specified by Probe. Probe pistons are garbage, don't ever do business with them.

Then, I had a valve spring from Modular Depot pop after 60K miles, hosing a mild 4.6L 2-valve engine. They admitted to making "a bad batch" early in production. Gee, thanks. Only cost me $5K for your screw up.

I would buy an engine from Ford that has actually been through an appropriate R&D process, rather than some fly-by-night vendor with who-knows-what kind of parts inside it. While I acknowledge that there are plenty of competent engine and parts builders, it is hard to know with certainty who is who. And an error costs you big time.

[merc]

Yeah, but the Ford motor is backed by careful product testing (we hope) and a warranty.

While we all may think ourselves capable of properly assembling a performance engine, what about the parts we put into it? I lost one engine to forged Probe pistons that expanded far beyond their specified clearance and scored the cylinder walls simply by driving uphill in hot weather. No, the engine did not overheat. I double and triple-checked the cylinder wall clearance, it was above the 0.0022" specified by Probe. Probe pistons are garbage, don't ever do business with them.

Then, I had a valve spring from Modular Depot pop after 60K miles, hosing a mild 4.6L 2-valve engine. They admitted to making "a bad batch" early in production. Gee, thanks. Only cost me $5K for your screw up.

I would buy an engine from Ford that has actually been through an appropriate R&D process, rather than some fly-by-night vendor with who-knows-what kind of parts inside it. While I acknowledge that there are plenty of competent engine and parts builders, it is hard to know with certainty who is who. And an error costs you big time.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/2/3/8/marksmotor004.jpg

You have hit the nail with the hammer on this subject. Their are a ton of problems related to engine building. I only hope I got my build up right. Chris and I after a couple of months decided to use Ford Factory pistons and only hone the problem area only. This short block was purchased with a damaged piston. We replaced the Grade 3 piston and inspected the other parts and found no other problems.

[lifespeed]

You have hit the nail with the hammer on this subject. Their are a ton of problems related to engine building. I only hope I got my build up right.

I hope so too.

Just for perspective's sake, I have built quite a few hotrod engines that have worked beautifully. I just got bit by some bad 4.6L parts. Hopefully you've got better stuff in yours than I did. FWIW, I used CP pistons the second time and they worked very well.

How much piston clearance are you running? S/C or NA?

[merc]

I hope so too.

Just for perspective's sake, I have built quite a few hotrod engines that have worked beautifully. I just got bit by some bad 4.6L parts. Hopefully you've got better stuff in yours than I did. FWIW, I used CP pistons the second time and they worked very well.

How much piston clearance are you running? S/C or NA?

Chris tells me it's about .0015

[Vortech347]

Probe pistons are garbage?! Maybe talk to the installer....

I've put 35k of Auto-x, Drag, Road race, Boosted + Nitrous HARD miles on my CHP 347 and 570rwhp. Its still running like a champ. NOT garbage.... Line up with me I'll show ya garbage... :burnout:

Research Research Research and order the parts yourself and find a GOOD recommended engine builder and have them assemble it. Its not that hard. Honestly building mod motors is cake.

You don't HAVE to have a Marauder block either. You can get older Teksid's and other WAP's from junkyards for as low as 300$.

[Tom Doan]

Ask me about my problems with a new Cobra motor from KK, an 8 month nightmare and then they say "we never said we built the motor". What ????? with 35 years in Biz. Read, ask, check back ground. Mine lasted 1hour, idling, did not even get to the dyno! But now I'm an idiot for paying 11k for a NEW Cobra factory crate motor compleat,(blower on Ebay right now) how many of you put your motor on the engine dyno and hammer it? answer, none, leak down test? Nope. pressure test for leaks? Nope. I payed for the FRPP catalog and looked at how much effort they put into a SVT motor, way more checks and tests and the local builder sez... "you don't need all that crap I built ahundert motors that are better than the factory junk". SVT does more than I ever put into an engine build and to get a warranty, look at the headaches that have played out here at MM.net. I am playing with Ford for the first time because of what I see them bringing out, A Cammer in a MM? where is Sgt. Mac? Joe Walsh? Zack? Dennis? After the hood job by Todd we have a long way too go on this Panther frame, Tom

[sailsmen]

The more research I do and the more price comparisons I make the more I am a believer in the Ford Reman. There is a Ford vendor on this board who is known for giving good discounts. 40% off is not unheard of.

If it holds up the way my original engine did, 184 runs down the 1,320' and 95,000 miles I will be very happy.

Initial indications are that the power will exceed the goals we set.

[sailsmen]

Thats under $3,000 for a Ford Reman Cobra Long Block w/ a 3/75 warranty! Try and beat that!

[Glenn]

I have seen and talked to many MM and Cobra owners that have had problems and heart breaking stories with "professional" engine builders of the highest caliber that if known here would shock members. I am a member of the Ford is best group that would rather put his money on Ford for a forged aluminum short block. But, each to his own that is why we have this net to offer options to people. Remember these are brand new aluminum forged engine offerings by Ford. People did not have any other choice, but to go to an engine builder for a forged block or build it themselves until now.

Glenn :burnout:

[lifespeed]

Probe pistons are garbage?! Maybe talk to the installer....

I've put 35k of Auto-x, Drag, Road race, Boosted + Nitrous HARD miles on my CHP 347 and 570rwhp. Its still running like a champ. NOT garbage.... Line up with me I'll show ya garbage... :burnout:

Research Research Research and order the parts yourself and find a GOOD recommended engine builder and have them assemble it. Its not that hard. Honestly building mod motors is cake.

Yes, Probe makes garbage. They don't have much of a reputation with the Better Business Bureau. I have spoken with a few people who have done business with them; they have a spotty reputation in the industry as well.

The pistons were installed correctly. I checked them myself, as did the engine builder. The bottom line is they did not work at the clearance Probe recommended, expanding into the cylinder walls under the mildest use.

Building motors is cake . . . until something fails, or does not work as the manufacturer claimed. Like I said, I have had alot of success stories. But I also value the reliability testing that the Big Three insist on. Ever heard of GM's 'Dock Test'? They chain a boat to a dock and run the engine at WOT for 100 hours. I'll bet those crappy 'performance' valvesprings I got stuck with would not have passed Ford reliability testing. No amount of research would have found that one for me until several years after they were on the market.

I am not at all opposed to building my own motors. But I would seriously consider buying from Ford if they offered the type of hotrod motor I wanted. If you're a competitive drag racer pushing the envelope then you have to try new ideas with your car and engine to win. If you just want a trouble-free 400, 500, or 600 HP then it is worth it to consider proven, tested products.

[Vortech347]

This is coming from someone with a stock Marauder?

I'm also pretty sure for Ford to warranty it, a dealer or preferred vender must do the installation. Hell thats half the cost of a build. So if you did it yourself the warranty is useless. If Ford engines are so god damn perfect then ummm....why are you/we replacing them with rebuilt ones in the first place? :shake: Oh thats right they are PERFECT! don't get me wrong their shortblocks are good engines but you can do the same for 1/2 as much if not more.

I don't need to hook my engine into a damn boat. I'm to busy kicking the crap out of just about everything that I can could run into on the street while daily driving my car with drag radials with 91 octane in the tank.

I can't stand this brand slandering. Its so damn stupid. If you want to flex your knowledge then build something to prove it, market it, and sell it. Otherwise shut the hell up. I ordered my CHP engine and it was at my doorstep in 2 weeks built EXACTLY to how I ordered it.

[sailsmen]

I don't understand what you are saying.

LIMITED WARRANTY STATEMENT
(FOR RETAIL SALES ON OR AFTER 9/1/2006) Ford and Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmissions and Gas Engines
Ford Motor Company, The American Road, Dearborn, MI 48121 ("Ford") provides the following Limited Warranty on Ford and Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmissions and Gas Engines to Ford, Lincoln and Mercury Dealers (each being a "Dealer") or general Installers (each being an "Installer"). This Limited Warranty provides that Ford will credit the Dealer or Installer for repairing or replacing, at Ford's option, any Ford or Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmission or Gas Engine sold by Ford that is found to be defective in factory-supplied material or workmanship subject to the following terms, conditions and limitations:

Retail Customers: To obtain warranty service, please return your vehicle to any Ford, Lincoln or Mercury Dealership or return to the Installer who originally installed the Ford or Motorcraft® Engine or Transmission Assembly in your vehicle. Please have your original dated receipt for purchase verification.

Complete Gas Engine Long Block Assemblies (6006/6V006/6V012) and Transmission Assemblies (7000/7V000/7003)
36 months or 75,000 miles from warranty start date, whichever occurs first. Ford will cover 100% of all parts and labor at approved warranty reimbursement rates
If installed by a Dealer, reasonable towing charges (up to 35 miles or to the nearest Dealer) are covered only if the vehicle is not covered under another towinginsurance coverage
Short Blocks (6009/6V009), Cylinder Heads (6049/6V049) and Crankshaft Kits (6303/6V303) for Gas Engines
12 months or 12,000 miles from warranty start date, whichever occurs first. Ford will cover 100% of all parts and labor at approved warranty reimbursement rates
If installed by a Dealer, reasonable towing charges (up to 35 miles or to the nearest Dealer) are covered only if the vehicle is not covered under another towing insurance coverage
Warranty Start Date
Ford and Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmissions and Gas Engines installed by the Dealer or Installer - warranty begins on the date of sale from the Ford or Lincoln Mercury Dealership or Ford Motor Company's Factory Authorized Powertrain Distributor
Limitations to the Warranty
The following limitation applies to the products covered by this Limited Warranty:

Towing charges are not reimbursable for Ford and Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmissions and Gas Engines sold over-the-counter by a Dealer or Installer
How to obtain Limited Warranty coverage for Ford and Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmissions and Gas Engines sold over-the-counter by a Dealer or Installer:
This statement applies to over-the-counter customers of a Dealer or Installer, such as a retail customer or fleet customer. The Dealer or Installer can claim both parts and labor under the Limited Warranty if the retail customer, at his/her option,

Returns the vehicle to the Installer (from which the assembly or component was purchased) or to any Dealer for repairs, or
Returns the Ford or Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmission or Gas Engine to the Installer (from which the assembly or component was purchased)or to any Dealer for repairs
NOTES:
This Limited Warranty may be honored by the original Installer or any Dealer (even though that particular Dealer was not the original purchaser/seller of the product)
In order for the Dealer or Installer to claim under the Limited Warranty, the Dealer, Installer or customer (whether original customer or subsequent transferee) mustprovide the original owner's repair order or sales slip when repairs are requested
Only new Ford Original Equipment, Ford Authorized Remanufactured, or other parts or assemblies authorized by Ford may be used to complete covered warranty repairs
Installer labor reimbursement is calculated using Ford Labor Times Standard hours multiplied by the selling Dealership's warranty labor rate or the Installer's actual labor total, whichever is less
Diagnostic steps taken to determine cause of warrantied concern with diagnostic results must be clearly documented on Installer repair order. (Warranty parts and labor reimbursement requests must be supported by diagnostic labor steps and test results)
All parts replaced under warranty must be returned to your selling Dealer
THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER FORD OR MOTORCRAFT® REMANUFACTURED TRANSMISSIONS AND GAS ENGINES THAT FAIL DUE TO ABUSE, MISUSE, NEGLECT, ALTERATION, ACCIDENT, RACING, OR PARTS AND ACCESSORIES INSTALLED IN VEHICLES OTHER THAN THOSE LISTED

IN THE COVERAGE STATEMENT INCLUDING OTHER FORD MOTOR COMPANY BRANDS, OR THE USE OF NON-FORD PARTS, OR LACK OF PROPER MAINTENANCE.

THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER PARTS WHICH ARE REPLACED AS PART OF NORMAL MAINTENANCE.

THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER REPEAT REPAIRS PERFORMED AS A RESULT OF A MISDIAGNOSIS OR IMPROPER PRIOR REPAIR.

TO THE EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW, LOSS OF TIME, INCONVENIENCE, LOSS OF THE USE OF THE VEHICLE, COMMERCIAL LOSS, AND INCIDENTAL AND CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARE NOT COVERED.

THERE IS NO OTHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY ON THESE FORD AND MOTORCRAFT® REMANUFACTURED TRANSMISSIONS AND GAS ENGINES INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. TO THE EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS IS LIMITED TO THE DURATION OF THIS WRITTEN LIMITED WARRANTY.

To retain the safety and dependability built into this product, it is essential that your Ford or Motorcraft® Remanufactured Transmission or Gas Engine receives the scheduled maintenance at the recommended intervals contained in your vehicle Owner's Manual/Maintenance Schedule.

[Vortech347]

Nothing in there about customer installation. Unless you paid an authorized vender or dealer they won't cover it. I've had to deal with Ford for quite a few issues with my marauder and all of them were only addressed because the manager of the service department of that dealership went to bat for me when others said no even though it was under warranty. Paint being one of the issues. For someone like me why pay MORE for the warranty that dosn't matter to me because I'm going to install it myself. AND save the cost of the warranty'd engine and the installation/laber costs.

[sailsmen]

Different people are giving their personal experiences with different brands.

Thats what this board is all about.

Members complain about how Ford built the car and dealers service the car on a regular basis.

I have built several engines, changed several clutches, swapped out several short blocks in my day. With the electronics and the time value it's better for me to pay others.

When I was in College or did not have a family to support or a business to build I could and did lay a car up while I rebuilt it.

When I am retired I may go back to doing the work myself.

[Vortech347]

Absolutly, if you've got the funds theres no point in spending a week in the garage swappin out an engine. :)

[sailsmen]

When I was in College I bought a split window VW Van w/ a blown engine 500 miles away in Tenn.

Had a long block shipped from Brazil. Swapped it out in 14 hours w/ help from a friend, started it up and drove it 500 miles back home.

The heads were so loose when I got home I almost burned up the valves.

Drove it 1,500 miles to NYC and back. Then to RI and back. Never once broke down.

Brought it back home for the summer. Rained like crazy that summer. A guy who got tired of getting wet on his motorcycle bought it.:)

[lifespeed]

This is coming from someone with a stock Marauder?
I can't stand this brand slandering. Its so damn stupid. If you want to flex your knowledge then build something to prove it, market it, and sell it. Otherwise shut the hell up. I ordered my CHP engine and it was at my doorstep in 2 weeks built EXACTLY to how I ordered it.

Calm down. Yes, my Marauder is stock. I've only owned it for one month. I have built many engines over the years, including my latest twin-turbo 900+ HP family ski boat.

Guess what all that experience has taught me? Research and testing count for alot when it comes to motors. You can save a few bucks by DIY. I have done it, and still do often do these things myself.

I am simply pointing out there is value in Ford's testing. Ten years ago I probably would have sounded alot like you. All my engine projects had been wildly successful. They often are, with a bit of care. But, sometimes you get burned by shoddy workmanship or bad parts. It costs alot of time and money. Doesn't mean you stop doing things yourself, but you do get more careful about trusting things like engines to others.

And look up the definition of 'slander' . ;)

[Vortech347]

A few bux? Problem is I've seen alot of people locally get ***** by shops for very bad work even some Ford dealers if you don't "know someone". One of the members of my association is down 20k from a shop taking advantage of her. Sure they're getting manley rods, good parts, ect... But they were put together horribly, worst part about it they pay out the YINYANG for bad labor and then broken high dollar parts.

I've just developed the DIY if you want it done right, however if you don't know spend the money to someone who does. The only thing I argue about the FMS engines is that you end up spending ALOT of greenbacks when if you did the research a bit more and talked in depth to people you can save your self THOUSANDS. I have about 25k into my Fox (not just engine) and if it wasn't for the corral.net and great people I've met down at the track, ect... It wouldn't be where it is today.

If you've got the cash to pay a Ford dealer or installer to do it go for it. However if you have the ability and know good resources it can be done ALOT cheaper with the same if not better result, but of course you need to put a little elbo grease into it. I have faith in Ford, although I do laugh at all the bent/broken 4.6 Fomoco rods I've seen. (03-04 Cobra rods excluded)

As for CHP/Probe being garbage I'll go to bat...err wait...line em up anytime of the week for them if they think its garbage. With 3 nasty 1/4 mile drag strip seasons on it (2nd place finish last year in my class), several auto-x events, and alot of "beat on" miles. I simply refuse to let someone say anything negative about them. I'm sorry if I came across a jackass but I've spent alot of coin on my car and sometimes twice :mad2: for errors (hell my vortech blew up!) or bad parts but thats the one thing I did and only had to once.

[Tom Doan]

So this whole battle is over someone getting the spec's and tolerances right on one motor and too tight on someone else's motor causing damage. Sgt. Mac's pro builder got the pistons too loose for street driving and he went through a quart of oil every fill up, throw some heat from boost at them and they expanded to fill the gaps and no problems. Trying to get the expansion rate right is the hard part every batch. I used Eagle pistons in my 440, they came with a scare sheet about how their spec's were special and under penalty of death do not deviate form the printed word, OK..... I find a little slip of paper in the box saying thats all BS, finish the cylinders to this spec. What happened? Someone actually heated up a piston and checked the expansion rate for that batch of aluminum for that batch of pistons, came out fine, a little bit of slap on start up and then quiet down after 5 minuets. Now I had to run the motor filled with kerosene for 30 minutes to get the rings to seat (Michael Waltrip) but thats a different story (nightmare).
This is what ISO certification is about, traceability,documenting the small changes lot to lot, batch to batch of every part. Lots of my competitors said it's a waste of money, you can do it cheaper and it's all BS. But I am able to sell my medical parts to the Germans, no small feat.
In an ideal world a piston set would come with ISO 14001 manufacturing certs. showing the traceability of the material, that all the set came from the same supplier, same batch, same day, same lot, same CNC machine,same machine operator, on the same shift, consecutively made and tested and documented. Sound like a pain in the butt? It is, lots of paper work and documentation, but 3 months later when there is a problem you can figure out that the machinist made 5 pistons one day and 3 the next and the machine was not at the same temperature the next day.Off the subject for this thread,yeah but I'm a production engineer in the medical industry and expected to come up with the answer.
Has anyone used Mahle pistons from Germany here? Any ISO certs BS in the box? Just asking , not tring to slam anyones parts choices.Tom

[GreekGod]

:popcorn::popcorn:

[merc]

Has anyone used Mahle pistons from Germany here? Any ISO certs BS in the box? Just asking , not tring to slam anyones parts choices.Tom

It's my understanding the Mahle makes the 03-04 cobra piston for Ford.

[Tom Doan]

My dumb, I should have known that. People complain that the Mahle's are not strong enough and are the weak part in the Cobra motor. I'll replace them when I brake the motor or get bored enough to change them.Tom

[Vortech347]

You do know there are several turbo'd 03/04's with stock shortblocks making excess of 750rwhp.

[Zack]

Chris tells me it's about .0015

Mark, you sure about that????

The tightest ive ever heard of was .003

[merc]

Mark, you sure about that????

The tightest ive ever heard of was .003


I will call him tonight.