Downside of 4:10 gears

[Dre]

I know this is not a new question, but could someone tell me the downside of changing to 4:10 gears? If there are any. Somebody at the ford dealer told me it wasn't a good thing to do. Plus I would lose top end speed.

[arejayesss]

Yes, you lose about 600-800 bucks for parts and labor

[Black_Noise]

i hear they go through tires more

[Local Boy]

Dealer dude steering you wrong, Bra...

4:10's are the ****nit!

ALOHA

[sailsmen]

I was told the car was originally intended to have 4:10, hence the 18" wheels.

You will lose up to .5 MPG.

I would stay far away from who ever told you that at the dealer, ignorant people who fail to recognize their ignorance are very dangerous to themselves and others!

[BAD MERC]

Dealer dude steering you wrong, Bra...

4:10's are the ****nit!

ALOHA


Um, bra?

4:10's add about 500 more RPM at highway speeds and make the entire reciprocating assembly including driveshaft, tranny and accessories do more work to travel the same distance. It gives better response when leaving from a dead stop. Your best bet - get your hands on a geared Marauder and feel the difference. Bra.

[Aren Jay]

I know this is not a new question, but could someone tell me the downside of changing to 4:10 gears? If there are any. Somebody at the ford dealer told me it wasn't a good thing to do. Plus I would lose top end speed.


You will be limited to a theoretical 190 MPH instead of the 208 or 220 or something that the 3.55 can theoretically achieve.

Yes you are slower but your limited to less than 190 anyway so it doesn't matter.

Yes you will get less MPG. Not much but a little bit.

Your car will be louder.

You will be able to tow more.

Your car will be more responsive because your torque will have increased about 15%.

It costs money.

You will also be able to achieve closer to the Stated 0-60 times of 6.5 seconds.

This is bad, yes, nobody should want to go fast.

If you want even less MPG Less 0-60 times and less performance lag, try a 4.56 gear ratio. Ask Bruteforce he can tell you all about it.

[Marauderman]

There is "no downside" to having 410 gears----------as those who are in the 'know' about them here have said already--they are what the car should have had--a tune for them so your tranny will kick with them and speedo set and you will wish you had done them earlier.........it just a matter of who can do it for you $ wise..........

[knine]

4:10's, tune, airintake =:burnout:

[Agent M79]

Ug. 4:10's gooooood. Ug.

[freakstatus]

Um, bra?

4:10's add about 500 more RPM at highway speeds and make the entire reciprocating assembly including driveshaft, tranny and accessories do more work to travel the same distance. It gives better response when leaving from a dead stop. Your best bet - get your hands on a geared Marauder and feel the difference. Bra.

Thats a Hawaiian thing....its like "bro" or "brotha"...sometimes those Island boys forget who der talkin to....

Mahalo!

[Wires]

Um, bra?

4:10's add about 500 more RPM at highway speeds and make the entire reciprocating assembly including driveshaft, tranny and accessories do more work to travel the same distance. It gives better response when leaving from a dead stop. Your best bet - get your hands on a geared Marauder and feel the difference. Bra.

I'd question the two words "more work." Technically, work is force multiplied by a distance. With lower gears, the engine must move a greater distance (faster turning of the crankshaft) but the force is lower. There is a slight increase due to the losses that get greater with RPM, so the work isn't exactly the same in both cases, but it's close.

Yes, the engine will turn faster in 4th gear, locked converter on the highway, but the load on the engine is lighter. Think about pedaling a bicycle in 10th gear - your feet need to press on the pedals with more force, but you legs aren't moving as fast. Shift down to 9th or 8th and your legs move faster, but you don't need to press as hard.

Some argue that these engines are designed for the higher RPM operation and do better when "freed up."

In the city, with all of the stopping and starting, it's arguable easier on the engine - again, less force.

Or, to be more succinct, "there is no downside other than the loss of about .5 MPG." - as everyone else has said.

[Blackened300a]

I guess if you really wanted to look for a downside it would have to be that you are required to spend more money for a tune. Otheriwse the 4.10's are perfect for the car.

[BAD MERC]

I'd question the two words "more work." Technically, work is force multiplied by a distance. With lower gears, the engine must move a greater distance (faster turning of the crankshaft) but the force is lower. There is a slight increase due to the losses that get greater with RPM, so the work isn't exactly the same in both cases, but it's close.

Yes, the engine will turn faster in 4th gear, locked converter on the highway, but the load on the engine is lighter. Think about pedaling a bicycle in 10th gear - your feet need to press on the pedals with more force, but you legs aren't moving as fast. Shift down to 9th or 8th and your legs move faster, but you don't need to press as hard.

Some argue that these engines are designed for the higher RPM operation and do better when "freed up."

In the city, with all of the stopping and starting, it's arguable easier on the engine - again, less force.

Or, to be more succinct, "there is no downside other than the loss of about .5 MPG." - as everyone else has said.



You got a gold star in engineering didn't you? That was interesting to read - and correct. Whoever invents the dual-range differential first (like tractor-trailers) for performance cars will be one fat-cat on payday!

[DOOM]

You will be limited to a theoretical 190 MPH instead of the 208 or 220 or something that the 3.55 can theoretically achieve.

Yes you are slower but your limited to less than 190 anyway so it doesn't matter.

Yes you will get less MPG. Not much but a little bit.

Your car will be louder.

You will be able to tow more.

Your car will be more responsive because your torque will have increased about 15%.

It costs money.

You will also be able to achieve closer to the Stated 0-60 times of 6.5 seconds.

This is bad, yes, nobody should want to go fast.

If you want even less MPG Less 0-60 times and less performance lag, try a 4.56 gear ratio. Ask Bruteforce he can tell you all about it.

:awe: sold sold sold. ordering my set next week. i didn't know they made the car louder :burnout:

[Aren Jay]

Revs higher car gets louder. So on idle no difference but at speed your revs are higher and a little bit louder.

It is like changing from 4th to 3rd on the highway/freeway/motorway whatever you want to call it.

[Local Boy]

Thanks Freakstatus...

Sorry for the language barrier...

No disrespect intended...

As Freakstatus pointed out..."Bra" is a common referrence made to a friend here in Hawaii...

As far as the point of this thread...Wires said it best...I follow the same school of thought...

BTW: Got 4:10's Bra...

ALOHA

[ts-pa]

Assuming that you have a Marauder (DOHC engine), 4:10 are a great choice. If you have a TC/GM/CV (stock SOHC engine), then 4:10 would be a bit much for the highway.

I have 4:10 and I can't imagine having any less of gear, except if you were to add a power adder.

[Dre]

Thanks for everyone's help.

[ctrlraven]

Yeah so after reading this a few times over I think I am going to finally put my 4.10s in. I have been sitting on them over winter and now it's starting to finally get warmer at time with less chance of snow/ice.

[sailsmen]

Yeah so after reading this a few times over I think I am going to finally put my 4.10s in. I have been sitting on them over winter and now it's starting to finally get warmer at time with less chance of snow/ice.

Why are you going to put them in didn't someone say it wouldn't be very good?:lol:

Maybe they meant it would be good or perhaps excellent!:D

[ts-pa]

Yeah so after reading this a few times over I think I am going to finally put my 4.10s in. I have been sitting on them over winter and now it's starting to finally get warmer at time with less chance of snow/ice.


What is your best 1/4 time & speed to date? I'm sure you will see an improvement when you go to 4:10's.

[Pat]

4:10's may not be the end of the line.....

After I bought my MM in July 04, I realized that the car needed a GREAT deal of help in launching. While Surfing on the internet I discovered the MercuryMarauder.org site. Reading the posts and chatting with members I found that a flash tune, 4:10's and to a lesser extent a CAI were mandatory items to realize any kind of performance increase short of a supercharger.

Later, I found the MM.net site and the same mantra was repeated with more technical information, vendors and recommendations for further performance enhancements.

So, to answer your question the 4:10's put the car in it's power band quicker(above 3500 RPM) The tune fixed the tranny shift problems, torque converter lock up, rev limiter, cooling fan schedule, top speed limiter and rev limiter revision while adding about twenty more horse power. The CAI also helped out.

Many owners were pleased and left their cars at that level of modification.

But still the low end of the speed sprectrum was deficit. Members here reported that a higher speed stall converter seemed to fill the launch void more completely. A PI 3500 was my choice. Now I don't give anything away at launch.

Always remember that a supercharger in itself will overcome these heavy car limitations, if you can spring for it, 4-8K a pop.

By spreading my mods over a year and a half I could stay within my budget.

These mod made me very happy on the street scene.

But I wanted a little more for the ocassional strip date so I added a 100 shot nitrous with a traction conrol module and that really upped the fun factor on the drag strip. Not so hot for the street.

Now that life is more on an even keel, the kids are all out of college, the grandkids are in school, the supercharger mod looms enticingly on the horizon (April).

DR has a Vortec "lite" that's right up my alley, low boost, no intercooler, simplfied installation, economical pricing.

Hold that thought Pat.

(Can't stop talking in my recliner years, did I answer the question?, I forget)

[ctrlraven]

Why are you going to put them in didn't someone say it wouldn't be very good?:lol:

Maybe they meant it would be good or perhaps excellent!:D
I knew they were good but honestly I was just going to end up selling them and not do it.


What is your best 1/4 time & speed to date? I'm sure you will see an improvement when you go to 4:10's.

60' - 2.094
14.253 @ 98.21mph with only JLT, GM COP, DR tune, 2nd set of cats removed, aftermarket front brakes (to hold more at the line), flowmaster super 40 mufflers, res delete tips and 255/55-18 kdw2 tires at 26psi.

Times are in sig. Yeah well I thought I was going to get better performance after spending $1100 on a 3500 stall converter (installed) and I ended up running A LOT slower 14.4-14.8 and drove me up the wall just during normal driving times.

With the help of Zack he got my car running awesome and just sought his help again with the 4.10s so we shall see in about a month when I hit the track. I didn't have a chance to hit the track after Zack's help to really see what the difference with the converter and several other mods that were added right before MVV.

[sailsmen]

Remember temp, humid and alti can easily .75+/-.

14.2 is an excellent time for those mods, u must have had excellent air.

[ctrlraven]

Late March air was around 60 something and probably no humidity.

[Todd]

Assuming that you have a Marauder (DOHC engine), 4:10 are a great choice. If you have a TC/GM/CV (stock SOHC engine), then 4:10 would be a bit much for the highway.

I have 4:10 and I can't imagine having any less of gear, except if you were to add a power adder.


I didn't want your comment to go un-noticed.

Most people do the 4.10's to get more torque. When you add a power adder and start making more power/torque, your need for those 4.10 gears go away/lessens. Gears are a substitute for torque.

I will be switching back to the 3.55's soon. 4.10 in my car is just to much.

[sailsmen]

How much torque is "needed" is a matter of opinon.

Just about every Marauder in the top 25 has 4:10 inluding the top 5. They have them because it's quicker.

Marauders came w/ 18" wheels. Whats the diameter of the CV tires?

[ckadiddle]

Several of my local MM buddies have gone to 4.10s and love them. That's good enough for me. I am just waiting for enough cash to fall into my hands. Plus, now I will need to do two sets of 4.10s in order to keep the wife happy!

[RF Overlord]

Dre, the downside of installing 4.10s is generally far outweighed by the upside.

On the one hand, there's the cost of the gearset, the installation kit, and the installation labour. This may or may not be significant in your situation. Then there's the fuel penalty; if you do mostly high-speed freeway cruising it can be as much as 2-3 MPG, but if you do a mix of driving the penalty is much lower. In fact, in stop-and-go city-type driving the gas mileage is practically unaffected as the higher gear ratio makes the car easier to launch so the motor doesn't have to do as much work.

On the plus side, the car is now much more responsive and feels more like you thought the car SHOULD feel when you bought it... :D :burnout:

[dreydin]

omg stop rubbing it in guys! i know i dont have 410s yet! :help:

[ts-pa]

omg stop rubbing it in guys! i know i dont have 410s yet! :help:

Start saving the pennies! Unless if you know someone, add about $400-500 to the parts cost for the labor.

This is one mod you can do "gradually". Buy the gears one time, then buy the bearing rebuild kit, then the LSD rebuild kit. Then save for the labor...time to completion will be here before you know it.

Just consider the idea of changing to 31 spline setup BEFORE you buy parts. It would cost more, but it is a good time to do it.

[DOOM]

should i do the 4.10 gears if im going the super charged route? what would work better for a trilogy? street not track.

[NATEHAWK]

4.10's:banana:

[sailsmen]

Your answer lies in the posts above.

[Blackened300a]

Yeah so after reading this a few times over I think I am going to finally put my 4.10s in. I have been sitting on them over winter and now it's starting to finally get warmer at time with less chance of snow/ice.

Get on it man!!! You'll be glad you didnt sell them.

[sailsmen]

Dre, the downside of installing 4.10s is generally far outweighed by the upside.

............Then there's the fuel penalty; if you do mostly high-speed freeway cruising it can be as much as 2-3 MPG, but if you do a mix of driving the penalty is much lower. In fact, in stop-and-go city-type driving the gas mileage is practically unaffected as the higher gear ratio makes the car easier to launch so the motor doesn't have to do as much work..........



Pulled an old thread and my own hwy mileage xp was <.5.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2074&highlight=reinhart

[Dennis Reinhart]

I know this is not a new question, but could someone tell me the downside of changing to 4:10 gears? If there are any. Somebody at the ford dealer told me it wasn't a good thing to do. Plus I would lose top end speed.


There is none

[ctrlraven]

Get on it man!!! You'll be glad you didnt sell them.

I will! I am going to do two Test & Tune days at the local track and see what I can come up with. I kind of want to wait to install the 4.10 gears and get a new LSD and axles, knock the whole rear end out at once but my 4.10 gears are for 28 spline axles so we will just have to see what I can come up with.

[ts-pa]

I thought that the spline count refers to the axles & the carrier. The gears would be the same since they bolt to the carrier.

[RoyLPita]

I may do 4.10s this year because I will have a popular PCM that will accept a tune.

[ctrlraven]

I thought that the spline count refers to the axles & the carrier. The gears would be the same since they bolt to the carrier.

Your right, I was thinking of the rebuild kit that came with the gears is only for 28-spline.

[eric jones]

How do they make the car louder? Is it gear noise or the exhaust? And what about nitrous with original gears? I know most of you are for the 4:10's but can you get as good or better performance off the line with the bottle?

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

You will be limited to a theoretical 190 MPH instead of the 208 or 220 or something that the 3.55 can theoretically achieve.

Not by far. You will hit critical speed on the stock driveshaft far before this. 4.10s get you to the critical speed on the shaft before 3.55s. When you consider the critical speed of the stock driveshaft, which is around 6500 rpms, your "safe" top speed from an engineering standpoint w/ 4.10s is lower than most will want to admit. Figure out what road speed that corresponds to w/ 4.10s (it's around 140 mph with 3.55s), it will be significantly lower.

If you search, there was a post many many years ago that pointed out the need to pay attention to the critical speed of our extremely long driveshaft.

[ts-pa]

Not by far. You will hit critical speed on the stock driveshaft far before this. 4.10s get you to the critical speed on the shaft before 3.55s. When you consider the critical speed of the stock driveshaft, which is around 6500 rpms, your "safe" top speed from an engineering standpoint w/ 4.10s is lower than most will want to admit. Figure out what road speed that corresponds to w/ 4.10s (it's around 140 mph with 3.55s), it will be significantly lower.

If you search, there was a post many many years ago that pointed out the need to pay attention to the critical speed of our extremely long driveshaft.


I think the real limitation of top speed is realistically based on what HP you have, frontal area of car, Coefficient of Drag, and how well the aerodynamics of the car hold the road, or not. As well as how the suspension is set up.

The driveshaft issue is just one small part of the top speed limitation.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

With the 3.5" diameter, nearly 55" long aluminum stock shaft, it is a real limtation that is oft-overlooked. Especially when you change your rear end ratio and spin the stock shaft, which at 140 mph w/3.55s has impending critical speed, faster. I'm sure most guys "get away" with it but... well you know how that goes.

[ts-pa]

How would you explain the Dodge Charger Daytona and Plymouth Superbird? The went to 200mph on the track, (with 3:54 gears?), did they have super-duper driveshafts?

[ts-pa]

Regardless of the arguement of theoretical top speed & driveshaft critical speeds...If you drag race, your only at the top end for a very short time.

[ts-pa]

If your concerned about the driveshaft letting go, get the driveshaft loop. They are very reasonably priced for the margin of safety that they provide.




...me thinking out loud, "I knew I forgot something for my car!"

[Blackmobile]

Figure out what road speed that corresponds to w/ 4.10s (it's around 140 mph with 3.55s), it will be significantly lower.


You're not saying the top speed for 3.55's is 140? I've done that with the 4.10's, and only didn't go further because I ran out of B@##'s before the car did.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

Never mind, forget it.

[larryo340]

Regardless of the arguement of theoretical top speed & driveshaft critical speeds...If you drag race, your only at the top end for a very short time.
How true that is. :D


If your concerned about the driveshaft letting go, get the driveshaft loop. They are very reasonably priced for the margin of safety that they provide.
I couldn't agree with you more. Added bonus the new ones bolt without making any holes. :)


How would you explain the Dodge Charger Daytona and Plymouth Superbird? The went to 200mph on the track, (with 3:54 gears?), did they have super-duper driveshafts?
Nope just nice and heavy steel shafts and large U-joints :burnout:

[rauder775]

What about doing 4:10's without flashing the computer? I know it is not optimal, but I hesitate as I have had other cars reflshed and they run worse!

Anybody running 4:10s and no other mods??

[sailsmen]

Those that have tried it saw 0 improvement in performance. The shift points will be off.

Over 1,000 Marauder's have gotten a Reinhart or Alternative tune w/ out a problem.

The Reinhart tune has it's genesis in the original tune written by Jerry W. while working for Roush as a sub to Ford developing it on the test mule. Jerry W. was one of the founders of SCT Custom Tuning.

The bean counters detuned it for CAFE.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

No one in their right mind would swap gear ratios without at least correcting the computer. You might as well leave it stock if you are not going to take the proper steps to let the computer know your ratio.

[Dennis Reinhart]

What about doing 4:10's without flashing the computer? I know it is not optimal, but I hesitate as I have had other cars reflshed and they run worse!

Anybody running 4:10s and no other mods??


It's not a good idea, the speedo will be off, the car will hit the revlimiter on WOT shifts, the first best buy is the Xcal 2