Advice from a Dealer's Service Manager......

[60birdtom]

As a Service Manager at a L-M Store --and-- a new owner of a 2003 Marauder, I've enjoyed reading the many threads but have also read some bad advice and wild opinions about Dealers. Here's my $.02 worth:

Dealership Service Departments are not the bad guys. We're here to help when something goes wrong and, more importantly help owners to keep things right. Of course, we're also here to help the Dealer's bottom line since selling the car is not where the profit is.

All manufacturers look for ways to save money and suspecting abuse on high-performance cars is one of them. Ford is no different and high warranty costs will almost always trigger a factory audit which always ends up costing the Dealer tons of money in chargebacks.

So.....to keep things on your side, here is my recommendations:

Do your maintenance at the Dealer and by the book. Why? If something goes wrong then you have the ammunition on record that cannot be challenged. Besides, any Service Manager will tell you that they will go to bat for a regular customer but are less enthusiastic about a customer who only comes in for the free stuff.

Remember that the Sales Department sees you when your all happy and thrilled with your new car but the Service Department sees you when something goes wrong. Putting it another way: "Sales gets the Honeymoon but Service gets the Marriage"

Any questions about Service and Maintenance? Just ask and I'll try to help.

By the way - use the damn 5W20!

[sailsmen]

Thanks for the advise.

20 years ago I did all maintenance and most repairs myself. Now cars are so complicated all I can do is open the hood, look around and shut it.

I think we forget that a lot of times when we bring the car in for servcie.

[Logan]

60bird,

Some sound advice, thanks!

[Merc-O-matic]

60Bird, Thanks for the honest dialog. I have been driving
Fords, Lincolns and Mercury's for the past 45 years, and
everything you said is true. Unfortunately there some dealers
out there who will try to screw you no matter how you play
the game. Buyer beware! And, YES I just had an oil change 5W20 (the first) at the dealer, and I almost dropped dead when they said it was FREE!
Gotta Love it!

[tvdone]

I scheduled my first (and last at the dealer) oil change for a saturday morning at 9am. I arrived at 8:55am and had to go through three people at the desk to get them to realize that the tires don't get rotated. They were very insistent. Finally, the manager explained to everyone that this car does not get the tires rotated. I knew I was in trouble at that point. I wanted Synthetic oil and of course the attendant said no problem but I wanted her to write it down so they would do it. She never did. I still don't think they put in synthetic oil. At 10:05am they pulled my car around to the bay. At 10:45am I pulled out of there for the last time. Do you think it is reasonable to set up an appointment for 9am for an oil change and for it to take an hour and 45 minutes?? And no apology or explanation about why? I figure that is normal service there and since then I've gone to ProLube and pay twice as much but I get in and out in 20 minutes and the manager is meticulus about the car and its condition.

My opinion is that the dealer should do any Free warranty work but the rest I would only have a smaller shop handle for less money and personal attention.

I don't mean to rag on dealer service, This is only my opinion. This is my fourth Ford/Lincoln vehicle and I have never had a positive experience with dealer service. I always start there and quickly end up somewhere else. If anyone knows a quality Mercury Service in northern NJ let me know.

[Petrograde]

I got my first oil change yesterday, I paid $18.95. :-( But, it didn't take very long, and the service manager remember my name from 2 months ago. Than again,.. I'm the only Marauder in town!

[RF Overlord]

Petro:

$18.95 for an oil change? With 6 qts? Why did you put a frownie after that...? The local Jiffy-Lubes charge $28.95, with an additional fee for the 6th quart, so it's over $30...At AutoZone, I can get 6 quarts of full synth and a Motorcraft filter for about that, so that's why I do my own, but for $18.95 I might consider letting the dealer do it...maybe I should ask what my dealer charges...

[60birdtom]

Sounds like most of you, but not all, have positive experiences with your Dealer. If not, then change to another Dealer (Ford, Mercury or Lincoln) and take your business there.

For those of you who always go to a "quick lube" place, ask yourself this: Do you really think that they expect to stay in business if all they do are oil changes? Besides, do you really want a kid who makes minimum wage working on your car?

I don't.

Anyway, Dealer Service Departments are only as good as the people who run them and the people who actually turn the wrenches. If you don't like one, find another.

Sometimes my customers do complain that we can't wisk their car in at exactly the same time as their appointment. Care to guess who are the biggest complainers? Yep, Doctors. Go figure.

[marauder307]

I too have noticed the commentary on the site about dealer service...I personally haven't noticed any problems (Bought mine at Daytona L-M, Daytona Beach, FL, and now have all service done at Dave Sinclair L-M, Lindbergh Blvd, South County, St. Louis) The only time I had any issue with a dealer re the Marauder was at the first oil change.

Daytona L-M, when they sold me the car, gave me a coupon for a free oil/filter change for the first one. At the time of sale, I made it clear that I was in the process of moving to STL and that I was going to have the car up here. They gave me the coupon anyway. When I came up for the first oil change, Sinclair didn't want to honor the coupon at first; their contention was that the coupon was only good in Daytona and not up here. A little bit of haggling, and some anxious back-and-forth over the phone with Daytona and Sinclair, and they ended up honoring the coupon...much to Daytona's chagrin:nono:

Probably can't go back to Daytona L-M anymore...the fault turned out to be the inexperienced salesperson in Daytona.

Anyhoo,...since then I've developed a VERY good rapport with Sinclair...they know my car on sight now, and it gets great service. There's only one other MM that get serviced there, and according to my service writer, he's already got close to 40k on the odo...traveling businessman, from the writer's description. Have had the subwoofer (had to have excess sound insulation removed to negate package tray rattle) and PCM (software reflash) worked on under warranty; just had my second oil change and a tire rotation done (tires swapped sides, not ends).

Am very happy with the car!

Re your comments with the quickie-lube places: You're absolutely 110% right! My LX 5.0 Mustang had to have a total transmission overhaul after an experience at a place in Daytona...turned out the kid working on it had torqued the drain plug in too far and too hard and cracked my trans casing. Didn't discover it until 3 months later when I went to upgrade my clutch; ended up being an 8 hour ordeal at the Ford dealer and about $650, even after I supplied all the parts for the clutch (bought 'em and brought 'em in in the trunk)!

Moral is: DON'T GO TO QUICKIE-LUBE PLACES!!!

[60birdtom]

Hey Marauder 307,

Glad to hear that you were able to straighten out the freebie oil change problem with your new Dealer. We do the same thing at our Store - first oil change on the House - just to thank people for buying a car from us. But the Dealer, not Ford, pays for that which is probably why the SL shop hesitated. On the other hand, honoring another Dealers coupon after your move to a new city was a wise decision on their part: it earned your future business.

[Ken]

When I took my car in for its first oil change, took over 1 1/2 hrs. Then I got the $25 bill for my "free" oil change. "What's this?" No free oil change, just free tire rotation at first oil change, and oh, we didn't rotate tires either since they only had 3500 miles on them, bring it back at 5000 miles and we'll rotate them then. She also asked why I wanted to change oil at 3500 miles, (9 months old and had been parked for last 4 1/2 months due to the never ending winter. The first two months with a coat of Zaino polish on her, waiting to be wiped off.) I didn't feel like wasting another 1 1/2 hrs on a 10 minute job on a lift, besides having to set up an appointment to boot. Gave the rims a good cleaning, and only spent a whole 45 minutes doing my own "free" rotation. And the dealership wonders why I won't be coming back.:confused:

Can only trust them that I got 5W20 synthetic oil, since it comes out of a hose (one and only one hose) from the ceiling. Is that all that they put in the vehicles these days?

Ken

[Smokie]

60birdtom. I agree with you about building a relationship with your dealership. I purchased my MM. at a L/M dealership and took the car in for a minor repair and some questions about a month later. From the mechanic to the service manager that I dealt with, they both were ignorant about my car and arrogant in their behavior toward me. I have a CrownVic that has been serviced by a Ford Quality Service Center for years so I tooked the MM. for it's first oil change and when I drove up to the bay all the mechanics came over to look at the car and talk about it with me, they knew the car in detail and features, these guys were all between 25-35 and very enthusiastic about high performance cars and actually suggested modifications to improve the cars performance. They don't sell cars at this place; is service only and they treat me and my car like I was family. This is were I spend my money and were the relaitionship is built, we are all on first name basis, great bunch of guys.
:beer:

[jgc61sr2002]

I was on vacation in Collinsville,Il this July and had the oil changed at Premier L/M. The service was excellent and the cost of the oil change was $24.95 .The service director Jim Collinis couldn't have been more helpful. Great folks.:up:

[BillyGman]

thanx for your advice. I'm curious as to what your views and advice is on the performance modifications we do and the warantee issues(???)..... do you have any insight to offer us???

[60birdtom]

BillyGman,

I have been waiting for someone to ask that question.

Strictly speaking, anything that alters the car from stock voids the warranty. A By-the-Book Service Manager can decline warranty work if he discovers -and reports to Ford- modifications that are anything but cosmetic.

An example of this would be a damaged wiring harness caused by higher wattage headlights. Another might be a reprogrammed PCM, which is a fairly common modification. If it takes out the PCM, you're screwed. And even if you erase the modified program and reload the original Ford program, it still leaves a tell-tale cookie which can be read. Since all warranty parts must be returned to Ford, and all PCM's are returned, if Ford were to discover this, then they could legally void your warranty if they chose to.

Now, in the real world, it is up to the Service Manager's best judgement as to whether or not to process a warranty claim on your vehicle. A gray area might be, for example, a failed Catalytic Convertor that is caused by a too rich fuel mixture (as in the popular 180 thermostat mod). This is an expensive warranty claim for any Dealer.

All the more reason to establish and maintain a good relationship with your Dealer's Service Department. Remember, customer's who spend their maintenance dollars at the Dealer are always in a better position if a problem comes up, especially if it is a gray area. The "fix only what's for free" customer will likely be treated By-the-Book, especially if the vehicle wasn't purchased at that Dealer.

By the way, this will be even more important with the 2004 models since Ford has reduced it's warranty on some items:

Windshield stress cracks are no longer 3/36 but are now 1/18.

Brake pads are also 1/18.

Buyers of all 2004 Ford products really need to read the 3/36 warranty to understand what is or is not covered. It is not the same as 2003.

So, do the modifications if you want to and spend your maintenance dollars where you want to. Just be aware that those decisions may have serious and expensive consequences if a problem arises down the road.

[MERCMAN]

ok, just another warranty question,. are you saying that if I get a re-flash of the PCM, it is traceable by Ford? I have been led to believe that reflashing is virturally undectable by he dealer?

[60birdtom]

Mercman,

Re: reflashed PCM's

Everytime a PCM is flashed, it gets recorded. The reason for this is that, from time to time, Ford updates the programming for drivability or emissions reasons. The tech needs to know what updates have been already done especially if he is tracking a persistant drivability issue. In that sense, yes, the Dealer can learn if a PCM flash has been done and when.

Whether or not that voids the warranty is a gray area but, strictly speaking, it does.

Ford, like all automakers, is required to make sure that all vehicles it sells are emissions compliant. If Ford were to test an aftermarket reflash and then authorize it's use, then there would be no problem. I really do not know if the available ones on the market fall into that category, but it's worth finding out.

Frankly I would like to see a PCM update that would make my Marauder's transmission shift a bit later and firmer. That might affect MPG but not emissions and might not void any warranties.

Tough call on PCM updates. Your Dealer's Service Manager might not be concerned if you do it, especially if he knows you and sees you often.

I will try to see what I can find in print from Ford concerning this issue and, if so, start a new thread just on this topic.

[rumble]

60birdtom, As stated in an earlier thread SSM 16428 is supposed to be a good improvement for transmission shifting. Have you tried that?

[Petrograde]

RF said....."$18.95 for an oil change? With 6 qts? Why did you put a frownie after that...? "

I noticed that a lot of people here got their first oil changes for free. My dealership didn't do that for me. But, I think they are kinda hurting right now, since most of their customers are in the 101st Airborne. ... and they are not here right now.

[Smokie]

60birdtom: First let me thank you for the valuable info that you are providing to all our members on a dealers perpective. I do have a question in regards to your statement about the 180 stat causing catalytic failure. The stat's job is to prevent the cooling system from flowing on a cold start until engines reaches operating temp. It cannot affect the operating temp. once it opens; after that the cooling fans cycling on/off maintain normal temp. and the stat. no longer plays any role in engine temp. unless your engine is turned off and allowed to cool down again. If you could explain in detail how the process of a 180 stat ruins the catalytic converter I would be grateful. I am only seeking knowledge my question is not intended as a flame.

[60birdtom]

Hey Smokie,

You may be absolutely right about the 180 stat not hurting the convertor - but maybe not.

Many Mustang guys, especially with the 5.0's ran cooler stats so that the computer would set the fuel/air mixture slightly richer and, therefore, add some power.

Catalytic convertors do not like rich mixtures and neither do O2 sensors. CatCons reach higher than normal temperatures with rich mixtures which can, in time, destroy them. If the 180 stat in the 4.6 does not increase the mixture by allowing cooler than normal coolant temps (tricking the PCM into thinking that it hasn't reached normal operating temps), then you should be OK.

I remember some years ago at a Ford store that a guy showed up with a Catalytic Convertor that was glowing red hot. His O2 had failed and the mixture was full rich. After he parked his F-150 it actually caught the carpeting on fire inside the cab! Quite a mess.

Point is, if you run a 180 stat, make sure that the engine is reaching and maintaining normal operating temps. If not the PCM will see that as a cold engine and set a rich mixture as it does after a cold startup.

[RF Overlord]

60bird and Smokie:

Dennis recommends using a 180° thermostat ONLY with one of his chips...and the primary reason is to reduce pre-ignition, not to "trick" the PCM or to run richer fuel mixtures...

[BillyGman]

question is this: Even though Dennis's reason for the cooler thermostat isn't to cause a richer mixture, does that neccessarily mean that a richer mixture isn't the result? I mean can we be sure that Dennis has made sure that this doesn't occur? I'm not knocking Dennis, but rather just posing the question since I believe that it's an important one in light of what has been revealed here.

[RF Overlord]

Probably Dennis should be the one to answer this, but I believe the air-fuel mixture is more affected by the intake air temp than the coolant temp, except during open-loop operation.

[merc]

Well, I think everyone on this board has read my post about factory service and maintenance. I have had all my Lincolns and Mercury serviced at the dealership. So far, the factory charge backs on the Mercury have exceeded 14,000 dollars and that’s not including labor. Mercury seems to be building my car again part by part. My relationship with the service department is out standing. I know everyone on a first name basis and this is over a span of 6 years. It doesn’t take much to consummate a sale, where the time is spent is on the back end (The Service department).

:pimp:

[Smokie]

60birdtom : Thanks for reply, what you are saying about an engine not reaching operating temp. and therefore asking for more fuel makes perfect sense, my MM. temp. gauge went just shy of mid-range before stat, after stat it goes to exact same spot as before. so unless the temp. gauge is a dummy gauge like the oil gauge that just goes to the same place no matter what my cars operating temp. has not changed any. However if the temp. gauge is a dummy gauge please let us know because then there is a real reason for concern. Thanks again....Knowledge is power.


:banana2: :banana:

[RF Overlord]

Smokie:

The temp gauge is real...the factory thermostat is a 188° unit, so the difference on the gauge with a 180° will be about 1 needle-width (very small)...

[BillyGman]

Dennis, and he wrote back and simply mentioned that the cooler stat is for the prevention of pre-ignition/knocking. But I already knew that. So he didn't address my question as to weather or not the cooler temp causes the engine to run rich. So I guess this still remains a mystery.......

[tvdone]

Can you elaborate on what is considered a windshield stress Crack? I have a small crack likely from a stone. Is this considered a stress crack? Also, if the brake pads need to be replaced before the warranty is over, is the entire job covered or just the pads? Thanks for your information, I've learned alot from this one topic.

John T.

[60birdtom]

Re: Windshield stress cracks.

A crack that is caused by a stone hit (chip) is definitely not a warranty item, although it might be an insurance claim. Stress cracks are just that and usually start where the glass is attached to the header panel and then grow as the vehicle is driven.

Re: brake pads

Normal wear and maintenance items are not covered by warranty for Ford or Mercury (different for Lincoln) or most any manufacturer for that matter. However warped rotors, which is by far the most common complaint, can be covered and frequently we also replace the pads.

Again, this is one of those gray areas that the Service Manager has to decide on a vehicle by vehicle basis.

Both of these items have reduced coverages for 2004.

[mtnh]

Awaiting Mad-3R's response here. It should be good.

As for oil changers at quick lube joints being minimum wage earners and therefore unworthy of working on our cars, what do dealership oil-changers have over them, besides tieing up your car for 75% longer?

Pertaining to the thermostat operation, the thermostat controls the engine termperature, not the cooling fans. The fans ensure that ample cool water is available and the thermostat manages that cool water and allows it to flow as needed to maintain the thermostat's calibrated setpoint. This is a bit different than Smokie had stated above.

Mike

[MAD-3R]

My issues, and there are many, stem mainly from what I persive as customer service, or the lack there of from my dealer. I guess they took it personely that I DIDN'T tell them that I had some aftermarket mods to my car, and after stripping the engine to it's bones, through all the bits and pieces in the trunk. All the nuts and bolts, plugs, and my computer were thrown together in a box. This is after they said they were going to put it "back together"

But, I have the car back, only missing one piece, one need to replace another piece, and I will post 1/4 mile times on Sunday.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by 60birdtom

By the way, this will be even more important with the 2004 models since Ford has reduced it's warranty on some items:


Now I've seen it all... a 'decontented' warranty!! LOL! :D

[deerejoe]

60birdtom:
Thank you for your generous sharing of time/information.
We all can profit from your "in-house" (dealer) advice regarding our MMs.

As you may know, many of us here DO NOT have access to another L/M dealer for hundreds of miles. Merely going from one rural dealer to another seldom improves the situation.
If the selling dealer is truly interested in our "future" business, then its to their advantage to provide excellent service overall.

A dealer must understand that PROMT, COURTEOUS and PROFESSIONAL service relates to good business sense. Whether it regards a simple lube/oil/filter operation or a minor/major warranty issue.
The allegiance of dealer to manufacturer HAS to be weighed against a customers potential return business.

I personally will give my business to the local merchant in my community. In the event that I have to travel outside my local market...I will look for the best return on my expenditure...professionalism being the first criteria in service and resolution of my quest.
The merchant will understand my needs AND how best to resolve them.

I have NOT modified my MM beyond the superficial both due to my preference and the selling dealer's (many) objections...most of which you have previously outlined.
Warranty/voiding issues is something I'm simply not qualified to argue or over rule.
However, if I DO CHOOSE to modify my car in a manner that seriously compromises the warranty...I am fully prepared to accept the responsibility AND the personal liability of my actions.

All I have to say in closing is: I fully expect the selling dealer to comply with my desires for prompt, professional and courteous service. Its strictly business!!

[BRSMERC]

The other side of the equation - great. Do the modifications have to cause the failure to void the warrantee? Does the dealer have to show proof of the connection? Example - super charging the engine voiding the engine warrantee even if there was an obvious engine defect? Surely larger wattage headlights will not void the powertrain warrantee?

[prchrman]

60birdtom...thanks for all the no nonsense info...really appreciated...I have had nothing but co-op from the dealership I bought my MM from and the local Ford dealership where I have it serviced...the Ford dealership guys know the MM better than the LM dealer where I purchased it...the Ford guys were telling me how they went to Bristol FFW and saw Dennis Reinhart's MM run...they were running Stangs...so they are into performance vehicles...again thanks for the info keep us up to date on any changes that come down the pike...willie

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by BRSMERC
Do the modifications have to cause the failure to void the warrantee?In theory, yes...
Does the dealer have to show proof of the connection?In theory, yes...but all they have to do is SAY it was caused by your mod, and you now have to force them to prove it...while your car is tied up...
Example - super charging the engine voiding the engine warrantee even if there was an obvious engine defect?Don't even TRY to argue that one... :rolleyes:
Surely larger wattage headlights will not void the powertrain warrantee? Probably not, but they WILL void the warranty on the electrical system, wiring harness, headlamp switch, etc...and so on...

[60birdtom]

Boy, have I opened a can of worms or what!

I've started a new thread that deals with warranty issues alone. I've spelled out what Ford says and not my opinion. I've spelled out what Ford declares as Not Covered.

Read the new thread and, if you still have warranty questions, post them there.

I'm not here to tell anyone what they can or cannot do with their Marauder - it's your car and as far as I'm concerned you can do whatever you like. Just remember that Ford may not agree with you if something goes wrong because of your modifications.

"Don't Kill The Messanger"

[BillyGman]

messanger's fault!!!! KILL KILL KILL:flamer: :D :D :D

[60birdtom]

To understand this problem, you really have to look at it from Ford's point of view - even if you don't agree with it.

Ford designed, engineered, built and marketed (no, I won't go there) the Marauder. It has to run well, perform under a variety of driving conditions, be emissions compliant and dependable. They back up their work with a warranty against defects in workmanship and parts - the same as any other manufacturer.

They have absolutely no control over the vehicle after it's in the hands of the consumer but they still warrant against part failures.

How can any reasonable person expect that Ford should pay for a repair that was caused by the consumer's neglect, abuse or lack of maintenance? If a part fails because of a modification rather than a part defect, the consumer is liable.

I know that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but it is helpful for you to understand what you, and the Dealer, are up against if you find yourself in this position.

Again, my advice is to establish and maintain a good relationship with your Dealership's Service Manager. He is the one who ultimately will have to go to bat for you if a warranty problem arises.

[studio460]

I have to second prchrman's comments--THANKS, 60birdtom!!! Thanks for all the straight-talking, honest advice and insight. VERY much appreciated in an internet world rife with rumor, second-hand stories, and confusion! You are a valued voice on this board!

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by 60birdtom

Frankly I would like to see a PCM update that would make my Marauder's transmission shift a bit later and firmer. That might affect MPG but not emissions and might not void any warranties.



We've heard that the shift program is improved for 2004, as well as there bing other changes, such as dual knock sensors. Supposedly there will be a TSB indicating the 2003s can be brought up to the 2004 level with programming and parts.
Have you seen anything about this yet?

[60birdtom]

No, nothing as yet. We've been checking for TSB's and SSM's for shifting concerns and there are none.....

.....but we'll keep looking.

[martyo]

BTW 60bird: Where upstate are you?

[studio460]

The dual knock sensor upgrade would be the most appealing upgrade of the '04 improvements IMO--I hope it's going to be affordable . . . Did you hear this from a source from Ford, RC?

[RCSignals]

NBC, it was in the Posts by Mac from the meeting with Mercury reps

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by 60birdtom
No, nothing as yet. We've been checking for TSB's and SSM's for shifting concerns and there are none...but we'll keep looking.

Well, take a coffee break, Tom, I wouldn't expect a TSB to be issued until the original product is available. What RCSignals is thinking of, is a conversation with I (and others here) had with Steve Babcock, MM Program Manager. He mentioned that the '04 will have upgrades, specifically adding dual knock sensors, improved 11.25 torque converter, and enough internal changes to the 4R70W tranny that it will be designated as the 4R75W. When asked if these features would be made availavle to the '03 owners, he replied "yes, though TSBs, but not all of them. Some owner's expense would be involved."

Since the source is a LM executive, I believe him. However, the conversation took place last May, and I've worked long enough in a bureaucratic structure to understand that...things change.

I can forsee LM offering '03 owners the added knock sensor, maybe some PCM adjustments, and maybe, just maybe, an improved valve body in the tranny. But, replacing torque converters and whole transmissions when there essentially nothing worng with the present other that they have been upgraded, isn't going to happen at LM's expense.

In all honesty, I don't really expect any of the upgrades to be available to '03 owners. Steve Babcock is genuinely loyal to his owners, he would want to see us all happy owners. However, my glass is neither half full, nor half empty. It's always a half of glass of water, and the LM exec who functions as head cashier is likewise equally practical. LM doesn't give a snit about any of this, until is a public issue.

[RCSignals]

I think if anything is offered for '03s in a TSB, it will be entirely at the owner's expense.

[TripleTransAm]

Having given the car some time to mature in my hands and break itself in, I'm considering the DR chip as the first step in upgrading the car's performance.

Here's my dilemma: do I jump the gun and get the chip and associated h/w, or do I wait and hope that some of the goodies from the '04 will trickle down to my '03 via owner-paid TSB work and then get the corresponding DR chip? The reason for this is that I'm assuming that the DR chip for an '04 spec motor is bound to be a little more aggressive, having 2 knock sensors to rely on versus one (but it's just a wild guess at the moment).

I wasn't sure whether to post this as a continuation of the direction this thread is heading in, or to start a new thread in a Reinhart forum.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Here's my dilemma: do I jump the gun and get the chip and associated h/w, or do I wait and hope that some of the goodies from the '04 will trickle down to my '03 via owner-paid TSB work and then get the corresponding DR chip? The reason for this is that I'm assuming that the DR chip for an '04 spec motor is bound to be a little more aggressive, having 2 knock sensors to rely on versus one (but it's just a wild guess at the moment).

We're in the 11th hour anyway, /Steve, the '04s are on the trucks now. I don't think you risk anything in waiting. What may trickle down to the '03s, and how, is still a mystery.

What Babcock stated, or, "promised" last May, needs to be seen in hand. The head cashier may have decided that due to the planned demise, no changes are necessary. Either way, when you do call DR, you'll get the best of what's available.

If I were in your shoes, bone stock and wondering, I'd think about the Superchips programmer. Can't hurt to enjoy an appetizer...

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac
If I were in your shoes, bone stock and wondering, I'd think about the Superchips programmer. Can't hurt to enjoy an appetizer...


I'd think they'd be in the same situation as the DR chip... if something more aggressive (H/W-wise) shows up for our 4.6s courtesy of the '04s, I'd venture a guess that the corresponding aftermarket calibrations could be pushed yet a bit farther in aggressiveness, both for the DR chip and the Tuner.

As far as getting the tuner now, the product has not given me enough of a warm fuzzy that I'm ready to step up to it. Seems its content is still in a state of flux, and I'd like to see it attain a greater state of stability before considering it. In my own case, it would seem (based on our own members' investigations) that the calibrations for my CRD1-tagged car have a completion date of mid-August... that's pretty recent, and I'd like to see how it 'ages' in other cars before I'll step up to it... sorry I don't have the $$ resources to be the guinea pig.

Personally, I am VERY curious to see how aggressively (if at all) they massage the MM for '04. It IS possible to have a factory calibration that is close-to-perfect... consider my GTA and the number of aftermarket chips that couldn't really improve on anything but the part throttle area, since WOT was pretty much on the money from the factory.