Syn vs. semi syn or conventional

[SID210SA]

If you go from our semi syn oil to full Syn why is it said that you cant go back....and the same for convetional.....inquiring minds want to know...:)

[Breadfan]

It was due to old style seals and how the different oils may react to them, mainly how they would treat the seals and how seals would expand and contract in each type of oil.

It was believed that synthetic would cause seals to react one way and reverting back to normal would cause seals to not expand/contract in the sameway thus causing oil leaks.

To my knowledge that was the only reason, and I do not see it being a problem today. I don't know if that ever truly was a problem, or if it was an issue with early synthetics, or perhaps it was a myth that was busted.

[fastblackmerc]

I think you'd have an issues with the seals in an older engine.... not with the newer engines and seals.

[Dragcity]

FYI, I tried Mobil 1 and ran it for 4,000 mi. Didn't like it a bit, so went back to Motorcraft 5/20 as required. No issues 30,000 mi later.

[magindat]

Hey Bob, :director: oil thread over here!!!
:laugh:

[ctrlraven]

I started out using Motorcraft 5/20, then Castrol 5/30 (free case from a friend) since then I have been using Royal Purple 5/20.

[magindat]

Redline, Redline, Redline.

I've used Mobil1, Royal Purple, Motorcraft, Quaker, Castrol.. I think that's it. The car just runs best on Redline. I can actually FEEL a difference between Redline and Mobil1. Royal Purple runs a little better than Mobil1, but still not as good as Redline.

Fortunately, I've found a complete product line for fluids. The tranny is now 87.5% Redline D4 and runs better than ever. Each half change (6 quarts) improved the shift response. The diff oil quieted the noisy Ford Racing diff and everybody knows water wetter works.

I get nothing in return from Redline for saying so. It's just been the best stuff I've found. Oil and fluids are the one thing I DO perform trial and error with since they have to be changed so often anyway!

[Mike Poore]

I started out using Motorcraft 5/20, then Castrol 5/30 (free case from a friend) since then I have been using Royal Purple 5/20.

The big thing here is, to not deviate from the Required 5W-20. Thicker oil(s) will pool in the cylinder heads and are said to cause the blue smoke syndrome, and the tapping lifter/valve problem in some of the '03A's. While we had a dealership we used Aamsoil, but since having to pay full price, switched back to Mobil-1. Stay away from Fram oil filters, and for what it's worth, we use NAPA Gold, exclusively. MOTORCRAFT makes a good filter. :D

[ctrlraven]

Oh I know, I had made a thread about it a long time ago cause I was still recovering (money wise) from my accident so free oil for one oil change I wasn't going to pass up. I'll never use a Fram after hearing the horror stories, it's MotorCraft or PureOne filters for me.

[TooManyFords]

I was listening to Maxim Radio (sirius) the other day and they have this car tech show where two honda-lovers come on and talk about cars. Anyway, one caller asked about synthetic oil and they made the statement "Once you go Synthetic, you can never go back without damaging the engine...". I immediately played the bull-***** card, but I have no data to back it up.

Are they just as they sounded, morons? Is there something to the Synthen->dino is bad thing?

Just checking.

John

[SID210SA]

Thanks for the infomation guys...keep it coming if yall have any more input on this thread....

Mike

[jonroe]

This sends my BS detector right up with modern engines. I've heard comments from many mechanics and the overwhelming number of them say BS you can go back and forth all you want with modern engines but be sure to stick with the proper weight. I wouldn't think twice about it although I've been using full synthetic in all 3 cars for years now because the data say that full syn is better.

[427435]

These oil threads are always a hoot!!! :banana:

When you combine old wive's tales with the internet, it's really humorous. :rofl:

First, some old wive's tales have (had) a grain of truth like the one about seal compatibility. Thirty plus years ago, the very first synthetic oils did attack some seals. The synthetic formulation was quickly changed and it hasn't been a problem for many years.

Second, let's talk about the "mechanics" tales about oils "thicker" than 5w-20 not draining back fast enough. A 5w-whatever oil will have a viscosity of 650-700 cSt at 25 degrees (Ford's module engines get started at that temperature all the time in the northern states). At 200 degrees, a 5w-20 oil has a viscosity of only about 10 cSt while a 5w-30 oil has a viscosity of about 13 cSt at 200 degrees.

How can an oil with an operating viscosity of 13 cSt not drain back fast enough when the "factory" oil has a viscosity of 600+ cSt at startup. :banghead: And the 5w-20 oil will stay above 100 cSt for 10-20 minutes as the car warms up.

For what it's worth, I use Mobil 1 15w-50 in the Ford V10 in my motorhome and it runs just fine (doesn't get used in the winter). I also used the 15w-50 (just in the summer) in a Mercury GM that I towed a boat with. The GM had 190,000 miles on it when I sold it, and the motor and tranny were both fine.

Third are all the boutique oils around. Many aren't even API certified----just "recommended" by the snake oil manufacturer for use where an API or the special Ford spec is called out. Like I should believe them??? :loco: If they can't say their product MEETS the spec, run!! :run:

If you don't want to use Mobil 1, then consider Shell Rotella, or perhaps the Pennzoil synthetic.

[Dragcity]

Uh - Oh

Here we go again.

Over and out

[1stMerc]

Redline, Redline, Redline.

I've used Mobil1, Royal Purple, Motorcraft, Quaker, Castrol.. I think that's it. The car just runs best on Redline. I can actually FEEL a difference between Redline and Mobil1. Royal Purple runs a little better than Mobil1, but still not as good as Redline.

Fortunately, I've found a complete product line for fluids. The tranny is now 87.5% Redline D4 and runs better than ever. Each half change (6 quarts) improved the shift response. The diff oil quieted the noisy Ford Racing diff and everybody knows water wetter works.

I get nothing in return from Redline for saying so. It's just been the best stuff I've found. Oil and fluids are the one thing I DO perform trial and error with since they have to be changed so often anyway!

How long do you go between oil changes with the Redline?

[Blk Mamba]

I think that this all comes from detergent, verses non-detergent oil, or trans fluid. It was said that when detergent lubricants came out, (50's-60's) that you could not put them in an engine that had been run on non-detergent oils, because the detergent would clean the deposits out of the seals and cause leaks. I am not a big believer in this, but there are rumors that changing trans fluid, and filter are a direct cause of trans rear seal leaks. If anyone has better knowledge of this please report.

[magindat]

How long do you go between oil changes with the Redline?

3K. Oil is still somewhat translucent and has picked up a dark brown (expected), but still smells sweet and not burnt.

Been doing 1/2 the trans or as much as will drain (6 quarts) every oil change. Started with 50%, then 75%, now 87.5% as the halfs add up. I'll stop at 1 more 1/2 change and then go 3 oil changes for 1/2 the fluid. Fluid is clear, pink and smells sweet at each change.

Drained the diff and put on a Moser cover/girdle. Filled with Redline diff oil. Overfilled. Some came out of the tube. Oh well. Changed again at next oil change to make the fill 100% Redline and get rid of all old oil remnants. Diff oil was like honey. Clear and clean with just a little cloudiness from the old oil/friction modifier. And it DOESN'T STINK!!!!!

I could go a bit longer, I'm sure, but this is my own brand of paranoia/self preservation with the SC and it's resultant added stresses. It just makes me feel better to keep these fluids in tip-top shape.

I have done standard 3K intervals with other brands. However, I noticed a marked difference in smoothness on Mobil 1. I took it out after only 1200 miles and went back to Redline.

This all anecdotal and not empirical info, so flame me if you want. I don't care. I like Redline. So does the car. It tells me with lack of noise, smoothness and better trans performance.

[1stMerc]

Magindat:
No flames from me. You always state your case very well and everyone should do what they feel is right for their car and own piece of mind. I value your opinion and the ability and willingness to share it with the collective. Especially for some of the newer arrivals.

Everyone gleens from the info shared, what is important to them, and benefit from others experience. It's what makes this site great.

[GreekGod]

(KenS) From the FordFE forum:

"...heavier oil is no answer as far as actually improving things inside the engine. Higher viscosity oil actually is made up of larger molecules so you, in effect, are using bowling balls instead of B-Bs for lubrication. They are much harder to force into small interstices, but don't do a good job of really providing lubrication...."

[RF Overlord]

(KenS) From the FordFE forum:
"Higher viscosity oil actually is made up of larger molecules so you, in effect, are using bowling balls instead of B-Bs for lubrication."That's just SO wrong... :shake:

Higher-viscosity oils consists of the same base oil as lower-viscosity oils, but have larger amount of VIIs (Viscosity Index Improvers) which are long-chain polymers that are tightly coiled when cold, but unwind and intertwine when hot. This causes the oil to behave like a light oil at startup and a heavier oil at operating temps.

SID, as others have already said, the myth of not being able to switch back is just that...there was a grain of truth to it 30 years ago, but it is absolutely false today.

[GreekGod]

I think that this all comes from detergent, verses non-detergent oil, or trans fluid. It was said that when detergent lubricants came out, (50's-60's) that you could not put them in an engine that had been run on non-detergent oils, because the detergent would clean the deposits out of the seals and cause leaks...

Engines run with non-detergent oil should never have detergent oil added to them because the detergent disperses "coke" built up internally, and can plug internal oil drains. This could lead to oil pooling under the rocker covers (with overhead valve engines), and also (possibly) the sump running dry.

Some engines were designed without oil filters (lawnmower flat head, /2 BMW air-cooled twins, etc.), and were supposed to use non-detergent oil. The BMW's had a crankshaft "crap collector" that required disassembly and cleaning every 30,000 miles or so.

[GreekGod]

"...long-chain polymers that are tightly coiled when cold, but unwind and intertwine when hot..."

Is that where the term "snake oil" comes from? :lol:

[GreekGod]

That's just SO wrong... :shake:

Higher-viscosity oils consists of the same base oil as lower-viscosity oils, but have larger amount of VIIs (Viscosity Index Improvers) which are long-chain polymers that are tightly coiled when cold, but unwind and intertwine when hot. This causes the oil to behave like a light oil at startup and a heavier oil at operating temps.

CycloneJoe said:

"Higher viscosity oils, resins, etc... are due to physically larger molecules as well as how the molecule is arranged due to temperature. If you take any viscous fluid and heat it, the viscosity drops. Multi-weight oils perform as the gentleman stated, but he is incorrect on how or why the initial oil viscosity is what it is. Clear as mud?" :confused:

[427435]

That's just SO wrong... :shake:

Higher-viscosity oils consists of the same base oil as lower-viscosity oils, but have larger amount of VIIs (Viscosity Index Improvers) which are long-chain polymers that are tightly coiled when cold, but unwind and intertwine when hot. This causes the oil to behave like a light oil at startup and a heavier oil at operating temps.



While that's true for dino oils, it's not true for good synthetic oils. The synthetic oils don't have VI improvers added as their oil molecule is designed to provide the multi-viscosity qualities without any additive.

Here's a chart of a couple of Mobil 1 oils. The viscosities are in cSt's.

Temp------5w-30------15w-50

-20----------6284-------21,852
0------------2129---------6462
25------------697---------1836
50------------281----------657
100------------71----------138
150------------27------------46
175------------18------------30
200------------13------------20
225------------10------------15
250-------------7.6----------11.1

The oil molecules that keep your bearings from wearing and seizing during a cold startup are the same molecules that keep your bearings happy at operating temperature. Again, when an engine starts and runs well with viscosities 200 cSt and higher (typical of a 5w-20 oil at 50 degrees), how can that engine be "unhappy" with oil at at 10 or 13 or 20 cSt??? That's the kind of viscosities a 5w-20, a 5w-30, and a 15w-50 oils (respectively) will have at 200 degrees. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

How many of you have gone "full throttle" after 5-10 minutes of driving??? At that point, your oil temp was still under 150 degrees (probably under 100 degrees if a 50 degree ambient). At that point your oil's viscosity (5w-20 or 5w-30) would still be 20 cSt or higher. Anyone lose an engine as a result?? I think not.

People make this oil "stuff" way too complicated. Just use an oil from a major company with a long standing reputation for good lubricants (Mobil 1 or Shell Rotella are what I would recommend) in an appropriate grade. They're readily available and priced competitively with other synthetics.

Ford's recommended 5w-20 will work OK (and allows Ford to use it for their CAFE tests). A 5w-30 will also work just fine and provide a little more bearing protection under heavy load or hot ambients. A 5w-40 or 0w-40 will also be just fine for startup lube and provide even more protection (especially if your motor is supercharged).

[GrazniM]

Sorry about this non-technical comment, but I go SYN during the cooler months and conventional during the summer (I have done this with my 98GM for years - it still runs like new... 10 years later; but I have not done this with my MM as I only picked it up May '07 - and probably will not anyway, as the cost difference isn't earth shattering and only I will be messing with my Girlfriends fluids... period).

My two cents.

[Bigdogjim]

Running a 32-V motor I would use only synthetic oil. All the extra moving parts need synthetic.

[GrazniM]

32V :D And, yes, it can only help the MM.

[Bigdogjim]

32V :D And, yes, it can only help the MM.

Got me on that one :)

Thanks

[RF Overlord]

Running a 24-V motor I would use only synthetic oil.Jim, did you finally install the 3-valve motor you stole from that Mustang last year?

:lol:

[Bigdogjim]

Jim, did you finally install the 3-valve motor you stole from that Mustang last year?

:lol:

Yes and runs well on Regular:)