Why I Haven't gone WOT in my Trilogy Car

[Zack]

Oh good god. If you know how to read SCT, you will understand!

[ImpalaSlayer]

i doubt many here will know what your talking about lol. could you explain for us that have no idea what your showing us?

[Zack]

i doubt many here will know what your talking about lol. could you explain for us that have no idea what your showing us?

Hell no. That would be pot stirring :censor:

[ImpalaSlayer]

well youve got me completly lossed good job :up:

[oldekid]

Huh? Don't get it.

:sorry:

[2,4shofast]

Oh ok....:confused:

[sailsmen]

Please enquiring minds want to know.

The purpose of this website is to learn please teach us.

Just make it hypothetical as in Brand X.

[CRUZTAKER]

Something else in its unique creation wasn't totally thought through and/or passed on to the consumer?

:P

[BruteForce]

Don't mind him. He's just Zackin' off. :rolleyes:

[sailsmen]

"You see, to nail down you A/F ratio, you must make corrections to the Mass Air Transfer Function. By doing this, you can achieve a near dead flat A/F line.
Lidio makes A/F adjustments through the base fuel table. Essentially, this just tells the injectors to add or subtract fuel at a specified rpm."

[Mike]

Don't mind him. He's just Zackin' off. :rolleyes:

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

[Black_Noise]

so your drink was to tall for the cupholder and you dont want to spill it all over the console??

[RoyLPita]

Thanx for posting a pic that we have no clue about. :loco:

[Bradley G]

Skeerd?/?/

[magindat]

What's with the huge squirt at 5250?!

[merc]

What's with the huge squirt at 5250?!

Ejaculation of the injectors.

[O's Fan Rich]

I'm not afraid to go WOT with mine.
Done it many times.
I have a 3.0 pulley.
I don't know what you're talking about.
I'm not an SCT expert.
Maybe you're just Chicken?

:banana::banana2::banana:

[SC Cheesehead]

I'm not afraid to go WOT with mine.

Done it many times.
I have a 3.0 pulley.
I don't know what you're talking about.
I'm not an SCT expert.
Maybe you're just Chicken?



:banana::banana2::banana:




:rofl:I think Rich nailed it!:lol:



SCCH

[04MEMA]

From a quick google search:
http://fuelairspark.com/Products/Documentation/C-Com/Help/basefuel.htm

"Higher numbers in the base fuel table mean more fuel, and vice versa."

[TooManyFords]

Oh good god. If you know how to read SCT, you will understand!

Since these cells specify the A/F ratio in lambda, you have to do some math to arrive at what is being commanded. If you wanted an A/F of 11.7 say, you would enter .80 in a cell. (Stoich 14.7 * .8 = 11.76) So do the math on all the cells and you can see that at the top end it will run extremely rich. 8.5 - 9.0 A/F.

While not dangerous for the motor, it sure won't get the most out of it till you trim the fuel back a bit.

Do I win something?

:D

[TooManyFords]

Zack, remember this is just the Base fuel table. You still have to go in and tune the MAF Transfer Fuction to achieve these results. In other words, the tune -could- be written in such a way that at WOT the MAF Transfer Fuction is really pulling fuel out from this table so you are achieving the proper A/F ratio. The only way to know for sure is to put a WideBand on it and see what it reads when matted.

This is why they call it the BASE fuel table and not the FINAL fuel table.

I bet this is programmed in as a safety feature so that if the MAF freaks out that it just runs richer than it is supposed to and saves the motor...

John

[TooManyFords]

Personally, I would not tune this way. I would dial in the requested A/F ratio in the Base fuel table and then tune the MAF transfer to achieve the requested results.

Let us know what the Wide Band reads, K?

[merc]

Now I know why I like you. :D

[sailsmen]

Could it be the tune is intended for different fuel grades and types around the country?

As a built in safety it goes very rich a WOT?

[Mike Poore]

Personally, I would not tune this way. I would dial in the requested A/F ratio in the Base fuel table and then tune the MAF transfer to achieve the requested results.

Let us know what the Wide Band reads, K?

Thanks John. There are very few here who understand the technical aspects, and from my prospective, discussion of those data is not, pot stirring, but sharing information.

Actually making the post in the first place, then refusing to discuss what it means could be considered pot stirring,,, AHEM!:rolleyes:

[Breadfan]

could be??

[TooManyFords]

Zack is just misunderstood sometimes.... He's really OK.

Hopefully this explains what his Base fuel table is trying to say. Again, without the WB it is hard to say if the tune is off or not. Honestly, looking at those numbers -should- raise some eyebrows. But I didn't write the tune so I cannot say for sure.

Still, I want to know what I won!!

:D

[Zack]

For the record John, the MAF counts at 1023 are 60 :eek:
Total timing is 11 degrees.
And the car made 460/450 :rolleyes:
It may have made that # on the dyno with more timing, but I now see what is done to all these cars before they leave the shop. (Timing is removed)
...underpowered, but no chance in hell of ever blowing up.

[magindat]

Pot Stirring:

First, thanx, John for clarifying the 'huge squirt'. Many of us appreciate the explanation and have learned something.

Secondly, Zack posted its on the Trilogy. That in itself is a hot button. Also, this tune was apparent;y prepared by Lidio, a second potential hot button.

I do believe Zack was honestly trying to get input, but avoid a replay of the last time he questioned Trilogy. I believe it's an honest attempt at rectifying a problem (just like last time), but trying to take a lower key approach.

Can we please just have an intelligent discussion and not point fingers and get all stupid about it? Thanx.

Back to the subject. I think I'd agree with John. It seems on the surface to be 'messy' or 'complicated' to tune such a massive amount of fuel and then turn around a pull it in another table. I can also see the notion of pegging the MAF causing issue and spraying a BUNCH of fuel to protect the motor, but dropping the AF to like 9 seems extreme.

Just talking it out so I understand. Thanx for posting this, Zack.

[Zack]

Im not naming names.
Its amazing the info people dont know!

There is NO WAY IN HELL this car made 460/450 with 11 degrees of timing!
It is 100% definite a lot of timing was 'removed silently' before the chip was burned.
Safety first I guess, but those #'s are WRONG

[TooManyFords]

Im not naming names.
Its amazing the info people dont know!

There is NO WAY IN HELL this car made 460/450 with 11 degrees of timing!
It is 100% definite a lot of timing was 'removed silently' before the chip was burned.
Safety first I guess, but those #'s are WRONG

Then you need to call a spade a spade. If something was done "under the table" you owe it to everyone to out this person for what happened. But before doing so, confront them and ask what happened. Mistakes can be made. Honest ones.

I agree that the car could not have done the numbers with that timing and fuel. 18* or so and the correct fuel and maybe it would make those numbers.

Keep us posted.

And as far as I'm concerned this is NOT pot stirring. I'd be pissed off about it and would let everyone know what happened too. Too many thin skins is the problem. And for once I'd like to see this scenario play out to a successful conclusion rather than everyone else jumping in and causing the thread to get closed.

[magindat]

Im not naming names.
Its amazing the info people dont know!

There is NO WAY IN HELL this car made 460/450 with 11 degrees of timing!
It is 100% definite a lot of timing was 'removed silently' before the chip was burned.
Safety first I guess, but those #'s are WRONG

I see where you're going with this.....

So, does the 'Crusader of Truth' Super-Hero wear this outfit?! :D

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/image.php?u=404&dateline=1205461416

[O's Fan Rich]

Zack.... you're OK....
I'm not.
I just don't understand all this tune/tech stuff and honestly I don't want to.
So what you're saying is that your Trilogy car now makes more power with the adjustments you've made in the tuning? And it's still a safe tune to run all day long?

Oh you can PM me or call me if you want.
I'll be on the road in a few..... Tractor shopping!!!

[Zack]

Zack.... you're OK....
I'm not.
I just don't understand all this tune/tech stuff and honestly I don't want to.
So what you're saying is that your Trilogy car now makes more power with the adjustments you've made in the tuning? And it's still a safe tune to run all day long?

I dont tune cars Rich, but I know how to interpret data.

The data in this file does not add up to the Horsepower #'s, and I fear it is the case in many others car as well.

Again, safety of the internals is on the mind of tuners and owners alike. I just feel this is way over-conservative and misleading Horsepower wise.

Also misleading when you would go to the track and not run the # you would expect with the Dyno #'s you have to look at.

[sailsmen]

Can you put said car on the Dyno so we can see the Wideban and the HP/TQ numbers?

Perhaps this is why another S/C car you owned had KOOKS headers and the stock tune w/o running lean?

[magindat]

So, the car makes the number on the rollers.

The owner is happy with his HP.

The tuner backs off the timing or adds fuel or whatever at the last minute before unstrapping the car.

REAL horsepower as driven away is LESS than the printout in the owner's hands.

1/4 mile estimates and calculators vs. actual runs show the car not 'living up to it's potential'.

Tuner is safe from blown up engine darts.

Owner is confused.

Is this practice wrong or subversive on the part of the tuner? That's a question - not an accusation.

In this way can tuner A claim better HP tunes and still protect himself while tuner B shows less HP, but on the actual real honest safe tune?

Is it good business?

No names - totally hypothetical. Seriously.

[Paul T. Casey]

)
...underpowered, but no chance in hell of ever blowing up.

Going to make some enemys here but, to answer just this part of your post, this isn't a bad thing. (now the bad part) The average Marauder guy is hardly what I would consider a "gearhead." You, me, Merc, Sailsman, John, and a few more understand if you want to go fast, you're going to break stuff. Jerry markets his kit as good, reliable, safe horsepower. (My words there). He's been very successful at it because he delivers a product that makes a lot of people very happy. It's excellent business practice. He stands behind his product. Back to the average Marauder owner. He buys a kit, gets it installed, and BAM, Viagra of wheels. He just took his 240ish rwhp and nearly doubled it (or increased it by 75% anyway). To him, the car is a beast. He own's most guys on the street. He doesn't take it to the dyno to check numbers. He probably can't even spell dyno. He just knows he's 17 again. Your graph, and numbers are important to the hard core guys. Most on here are hardly hardcore. Now, put a more "radical" tune on this aluminum blocked, weak rodded motor. Mr. Average Marauder owner see's he's low on fuel. He stops at station X and see's 91 octane is a quarter less than 93 octane. It's 2 days after his mortage payment, and a week till his next paycheck. He says' "Once won't hurt it." and fills with mid-grade. # days later, he's at the stoplight and Kid Hon-Duh pulls up next to him, V-teching his minute brains out. Mr. AMO, forgetting the fuel debacle, decides to give him a go. 10 seconds later, he has coated the underside of his Marauder with Motorcradt 5w20 synthetic blend. He's on the board within minutes telling anyone who'll listen that Jerry blew up his motor. This falls into the realm of bad business practice. To me, Jerry has done right by everyone who has purchased his product. It is exactly as advertised, the fastest way to the promised land, for the average Marauder owner. Works rather well for the not so average Marauder owner too.
After all that, I do respect the knowlegde, time, and research you put into this. Some may think you're sniping, but I know you're just being Zack. Trying to get as much Mod-motor info out to the masses as you can. I appreciate it, althoughyou should take a Dale Carnige class for your own benefit. :beer:

[sailsmen]

We don't know what was exchanged between the previous owner and the tuner. The previous owner could have asked for a street tune and only disclosed HP/TQ numbers for a race tune?

If it's a one tune chip then that's not possible.

The tuner could have told the owner here's what the car can produce, but for safety and use of winter fuel I am going to back off the timing/increase fuel.

The HP/TQ numbers appear high for the mods.

FYI ,This week I asked my tuner to provide a street tune, valet tune and race tune.

He told me he already has the street tune done. He knows how I use the car, 20K per year as a DD and 40 runs down the 1,320' a year. A Jekyl and Hide. I rarely floor it on the street, 2-3 times a month just to make sure it still works.

In the past I used race fuel as insurance on a street tune. I felt 447RWHP street based on how I used the MM was it.

Whats the use of driving around on the street with so much HP every time you floor it in first or second it spins the tires up to the rev limiter?

As to what Paul said my car for 6+ months was throwing a CEL, Lean Bank Left. I incorrectly assumed bad O2 sensor and ignored it. The fuel pumps went out. I think they were going out hence the CEL and I hurt the motor by ignoring the CEL.

I was trying to put it off a few more months for $ reasons. Had I not ignored the CEL I think I could have easily gotten another year.

I won't do that again!

[KillJoy]

My Personal Tuner is a goo ol boy with a Dyno about 1/2 mile from my house. I told him to Tune it the best he could. He did, and then gave me HIS recommendations. He pulled 2*, and said have fun! This was a safety check for bad gas....or whatever.

Zack, use this Tune, and get a Dyno pull. Then, swap to a Tune that some would consider to be "correct". Then you can see what is where.... the current power and A/F, and what it could or should be....

Just a though.

:dunno:

KillJoy

[Zack]

You all have had very powerful arguments!
Glad this is heading the right way.

Paul, your text was quite accurate.

The real question is:
How many owners that are paying $500 bucks for dyno tunes are leaving with the advertised #'s?
This applies to ALL tuners, not just specific to the Marauder, either!

[GAMike]

Going to make some enemys here but, to answer just this part of your post, this isn't a bad thing. (now the bad part) The average Marauder guy is hardly what I would consider a "gearhead." You, me, Merc, Sailsman, John, and a few more understand if you want to go fast, you're going to break stuff. Jerry markets his kit as good, reliable, safe horsepower. (My words there). He's been very successful at it because he delivers a product that makes a lot of people very happy. It's excellent business practice. He stands behind his product. Back to the average Marauder owner. He buys a kit, gets it installed, and BAM, Viagra of wheels. He just took his 240ish rwhp and nearly doubled it (or increased it by 75% anyway). To him, the car is a beast. He own's most guys on the street. He doesn't take it to the dyno to check numbers. He probably can't even spell dyno. He just knows he's 17 again. Your graph, and numbers are important to the hard core guys. Most on here are hardly hardcore. Now, put a more "radical" tune on this aluminum blocked, weak rodded motor. Mr. Average Marauder owner see's he's low on fuel. He stops at station X and see's 91 octane is a quarter less than 93 octane. It's 2 days after his mortage payment, and a week till his next paycheck. He says' "Once won't hurt it." and fills with mid-grade. # days later, he's at the stoplight and Kid Hon-Duh pulls up next to him, V-teching his minute brains out. Mr. AMO, forgetting the fuel debacle, decides to give him a go. 10 seconds later, he has coated the underside of his Marauder with Motorcradt 5w20 synthetic blend. He's on the board within minutes telling anyone who'll listen that Jerry blew up his motor. This falls into the realm of bad business practice. To me, Jerry has done right by everyone who has purchased his product. It is exactly as advertised, the fastest way to the promised land, for the average Marauder owner. Works rather well for the not so average Marauder owner too.
After all that, I do respect the knowlegde, time, and research you put into this. Some may think you're sniping, but I know you're just being Zack. Trying to get as much Mod-motor info out to the masses as you can. I appreciate it, althoughyou should take a Dale Carnige class for your own benefit. :beer:

Well said Paul-

Not everything is cause for a scandel. It would be one thing if the company had a a reputation for delivering half baked parts components ect. Both Trilogy & Alternative Auto do not. I have heard nothing but praise from all their customers, both down here in GA and from the folks local to them in MI.

They also don't have to share the reasons why they make the decisions they make with the public. That is where reputation comes into play. If you have faith in their reputation, then you as a corolary accept their standards and best business practices. If you don't, you make direct and forthright inquiries to the manufacturer in question. Trilogy or whoever. That is the only beneficial way to truly assist the manufacturer in the quality & assurance process if that is the goal.

I too have come to appreciate the level of dilligence that you put into your research Zack. I have learned alot about things Marauder I had no idea about from your efforts. That said, that is not all there is to learn about in this world.

I don't want to shoot the messanger ( did at one point, but thats so way in the past:D), its just that the message benefits get diluted when the messanger delivers it without as much thought and consideration as the message itself. JMHO

[KillJoy]

How many owners that are paying $500 bucks for dyno tunes are leaving with the advertised #'s?
This applies to ALL tuners, not just specific to the Marauder, either!

Who pays THAT much? My guy is about $300 for a COMPLETE Tune. He does not care if you sit there next to him and watch ever sinlge thing he does. He tells me what he is doing as he is doing it.

:dunno:

KillJoy

[sailsmen]

......Mr. Average Marauder owner see's he's low on fuel. He stops at station X and see's 91 octane is a quarter less than 93 octane. It's 2 days after his mortage payment, and a week till his next paycheck. He says' "Once won't hurt it." and fills with mid-grade. # days later, he's at the stoplight and Kid Hon-Duh pulls up next to him, V-teching his minute brains out. Mr. AMO, forgetting the fuel debacle, decides to give him a go. 10 seconds later, he has coated the underside of his Marauder with Motorcradt 5w20 synthetic blend. He's on the board within minutes telling anyone who'll listen that Jerry blew up his motor. This falls into the realm of bad business practice. .......

"Had I not ignored the CEL I think I could have easily gotten another year." At least I am not alone;


"Was on 95s when a nice lookin red Z06 came passed me .well i was right next to him and then he took off i could catch him cause then some of the antifreeze shot out of the overflow and looked like smoke (scared me for a sec) but i knew what it was. Anyways we get off and the same exit and i pull up to him and he tries to tell me i blew my motor(nice of him) i said yeah you might be right lets see when the light turns green ( he smiles) light turns green and im allready ahead of him about a car and 1/2 length. it was about a 1/4 mile from light to light which i had all the way (wasn't a newer Z06) which we roll down windows and he asks if i'm Supercharged and i said yes and he replied thats nice. we part ways with horns and thats my kill for today..Sometimes i really love this car and sometimes i can't stand it. Darn fords."

"Kill for today". Would that be a Mod Motor mounted on the garage wall?

[MarauderTJA]

I would certainly have a safer tune made for her. You want power, you more than most know, that the car requires a safe tune.

[cougar9150]

Dale Carnegie training did wonders for me :beer:. Best thing to happen to my career for awhile. No more wanting to stab people in the neck with screwdrivers.;)

[TooManyFords]

Here's my Base Fuel Table...

12426

The logic behind this is to command an 11.5 A/F across the board for any Throttle Position above 420. When datalogging, the Short Term Fuel Trims will display the lambda value in the BFT when in Open Loop.

I found this easier to know when it transitioned to Open Loop and made it easier to tune the MAF Transfer function. I may have sacrificed some low-end power by running more fuel than necessary, but I know it is safe.

[O's Fan Rich]

I dont tune cars Rich, but I know how to interpret data.

The data in this file does not add up to the Horsepower #'s, and I fear it is the case in many others car as well.

Again, safety of the internals is on the mind of tuners and owners alike. I just feel this is way over-conservative and misleading Horsepower wise.

Also misleading when you would go to the track and not run the # you would expect with the Dyno #'s you have to look at.

When I got my first dyno tune at Lidios in '06, the base numbers were right where Trilogy said they would be, even a touch better ( prob due to the Xhaust work) after it was dione, I was handed my dyno sheet printout. I still have it.:D
August '07 we did it again, longtubes and a 3.0 pulley with H pipe... better! I have thge printout.

August '08????? I'm hoping to do it again.
I've gotten all I asked for with the safety margin I desire.
If I were a track fiend it'd be a different story. There you're going for broke or break as it is.
Not me.
Nope.... tune me as high as you can safely, please.

Now to add to the discussion... what about the differences in dyno's and dyno setups? That would flop numbers around, right?

And I have done the Dale Carnegie thing.....twice! I recommend it.

[Pops]

I have been thru Carnegie three times and give it a big thumbs up! This is an interesting thread . A lot of varibles come into play. Keep it guys!

[CRUZTAKER]

This is good material...and headed down a good road as well.;)

[MarauderTJA]

and very civil........

[Lidio]

Im not naming names.
Its amazing the info people dont know!

There is NO WAY IN HELL this car made 460/450 with 11 degrees of timing!
It is 100% definite a lot of timing was 'removed silently' before the chip was burned.
Safety first I guess, but those #'s are WRONG

Hey Zach... why don’t you just go ahead and name names!!!

And while you’re at it; make sure that every one who's purchased a Trilogy kit or Trilogy equipped MM doesn’t make the mistake of going WOT with their recent purchase, until every one of them can make the time to individually visit you. And all the previous kits as well. So you can proceed to show every one how it’s done!! OR how to re-do a proven tune, on a proven blower kit that you and several of your constituents never liked in the first place (just a couple of year ago) if I remember correctly!

I’m extremely busy and probably won’t respond much to this waste of my time (not this forum or MM’s… YOU!!) The tune that comes in the Trilogy kits is proven and works the way it is supposed to in a mostly stock set-up. Beyond that the user/individual is on his own… with custom tuning of course, be it me or some one else or “THE ONE” you…

No one knows more then me that certain things in the Trilogy’s tune tables don’t look the way they should look, or let me rephrase that; the way YOU THINK they should look!! It’s that simple – the tables may not “look” the way the way you think they should look, but at the end of the day, they do run and perform the way their supposed to!! All of them, in an out of the box stock type set up and beyond too.

When the Trilogy tune was developed by me over five years ago we did not have the wealth of info, tables, adjustments that we now do with SCT, and many of SCT’s competitors. I used to use AutoLogic tuning software and hardware (which was very limited compared to SCT) until about mid 2004. Then as we transitioned into SCT, and for a lack of better words we “ported” over the Trilogy tune from AutoLogic to work with SCT chips and hardware -- to avoid the time it would take to do a complete “re-do” on the whole thing, since it worked so well previously. We did take advantage of a few extra tweeks courtesy of SCT, but the bulk of the tune was left as it was.

We’ve known that the MAF may potentially peg in stock form on a MM with a boosted set up, or slightly over boosted set up (this is not the end of the world as I’ve fought this with people for years, not perfect, but not deadly either most of the time in mild blower set ups). These are all things that we’re aware of. But in my quest to help Trilogy then and now… I wanted the kit to be as cost effective for both sides of the spectrum; Trilogy’s and their customers from an installation stand point too. This is why the Trilogy kits to this day come with a “Boosta-pump” to enhance fuel system delivery, rather then a replacement in-tank fuel pump. Replacing the stock pump on a MM is difficult, and I wanted Trilogy’s customers to not suffer through that in a home garage type install. Same with the MAF; cost and packaging.

Also Zach since you’re the expert on all of this these days why don’t you contact some one over at Whipple Superchargers, and ask them why they don’t install the IAT sensor post intercooler on most of their Ford twin-screw kits either. I’m not saying that it’s right. But just throwing it out there for you to; you know – show them the way!

I’m not sure who’s or which car your referring to here that may have or may not have made the power it was supposed to with what ever tune your tearing apart. But if it’s whose previous car I’m thinking that you’re looking at, or playing with. Then that MM had a 93 octane tune in it, and a race fuel tune in it as well when I last seen and/or worked on it. I’ve even looked at all his old dyno runs here from a couple of years ago, and most of the dyno numbers where in the low 400 RWHP like 435ish which is about right with a Trilogy with all the extras on 93 octane, and many of the other runs where in the very high 400 RWHP which will happen instantly on a Trilogy with all the extras when I bump the spark accordingly when I know true race fuels of some sort are being burned in it.

I do agree that 460 RWHP on a typical Trilogy with all the extra’s, on only premium 93 octane fuel is a bit on the high side and very risky for a stock short block. It most likely wouldn’t have left that way on my watch.

If you had a chance to look at some of my most recent tuning work, especially the new 3-valve Fords with twin screw blowers we do, you’d see that every aspect of the tune is extremely revised and correct for today’s standards. Every thing from the MAF scaling, injector sizing to all the tweeks we do to satisfy the Drive by wire, variable cams and the difficult to tune 5-speed auto.

And we do apply a lot of this on the more high end MM’s that do end up with big boost, 60lbs injectors bigger/better MAF’s like the BA’s from SCT and etc.

[Paul T. Casey]

The real question is:
How many owners that are paying $500 bucks for dyno tunes are leaving with the advertised #'s?
This applies to ALL tuners, not just specific to the Marauder, either!

When you lump in all tuners, I'd guess the number would be under 50%. Then again, probably 50% of ALL tuners don't use a dyno. I've seen some real messes out there. In both directions.

[knine]

This is good material...and headed down a good road as well.;)
We just hit a squirrel.

[O's Fan Rich]

Hey Zach... why don’t you just go ahead and name names!!!

And while you’re at it; make sure that every one who's purchased a Trilogy kit or Trilogy equipped MM doesn’t make the mistake of going WOT with their recent purchase, until every one of them can make the time to individually visit you. And all the previous kits as well. So you can proceed to show every one how it’s done!! OR how to re-do a proven tune, on a proven blower kit that you and several of your constituents never liked in the first place (just a couple of year ago) if I remember correctly!

I’m extremely busy and probably won’t respond much to this waste of my time (not this forum or MM’s… YOU!!) The tune that comes in the Trilogy kits is proven and works the way it is supposed to in a mostly stock set-up. Beyond that the user/individual is on his own… with custom tuning of course, be it me or some one else or “THE ONE” you…

No one knows more then me that certain things in the Trilogy’s tune tables don’t look the way they should look, or let me rephrase that; the way YOU THINK they should look!! It’s that simple – the tables may not “look” the way the way you think they should look, but at the end of the day, they do run and perform the way their supposed to!! All of them, in an out of the box stock type set up and beyond too.

When the Trilogy tune was developed by me over five years ago we did not have the wealth of info, tables, adjustments that we now do with SCT, and many of SCT’s competitors. I used to use AutoLogic tuning software and hardware (which was very limited compared to SCT) until about mid 2004. Then as we transitioned into SCT, and for a lack of better words we “ported” over the Trilogy tune from AutoLogic to work with SCT chips and hardware -- to avoid the time it would take to do a complete “re-do” on the whole thing, since it worked so well previously. We did take advantage of a few extra tweeks courtesy of SCT, but the bulk of the tune was left as it was.

We’ve known that the MAF may potentially peg in stock form on a MM with a boosted set up, or slightly over boosted set up (this is not the end of the world as I’ve fought this with people for years, not perfect, but not deadly either most of the time in mild blower set ups). These are all things that we’re aware of. But in my quest to help Trilogy then and now… I wanted the kit to be as cost effective for both sides of the spectrum; Trilogy’s and their customers from an installation stand point too. This is why the Trilogy kits to this day come with a “Boosta-pump” to enhance fuel system delivery, rather then a replacement in-tank fuel pump. Replacing the stock pump on a MM is difficult, and I wanted Trilogy’s customers to not suffer through that in a home garage type install. Same with the MAF; cost and packaging.

Also Zach since you’re the expert on all of this these days why don’t you contact some one over at Whipple Superchargers, and ask them why they don’t install the IAT sensor post intercooler on most of their Ford twin-screw kits either. I’m not saying that it’s right. But just throwing it out there for you to; you know – show them the way!

I’m not sure who’s or which car your referring to here that may have or may not have made the power it was supposed to with what ever tune your tearing apart. But if it’s whose previous car I’m thinking that you’re looking at, or playing with. Then that MM had a 93 octane tune in it, and a race fuel tune in it as well when I last seen and/or worked on it. I’ve even looked at all his old dyno runs here from a couple of years ago, and most of the dyno numbers where in the low 400 RWHP like 435ish which is about right with a Trilogy with all the extras on 93 octane, and many of the other runs where in the very high 400 RWHP which will happen instantly on a Trilogy with all the extras when I bump the spark accordingly when I know true race fuels of some sort are being burned in it.

I do agree that 460 RWHP on a typical Trilogy with all the extra’s, on only premium 93 octane fuel is a bit on the high side and very risky for a stock short block. It most likely wouldn’t have left that way on my watch.

If you had a chance to look at some of my most recent tuning work, especially the new 3-valve Fords with twin screw blowers we do, you’d see that every aspect of the tune is extremely revised and correct for today’s standards. Every thing from the MAF scaling, injector sizing to all the tweeks we do to satisfy the Drive by wire, variable cams and the difficult to tune 5-speed auto.

And we do apply a lot of this on the more high end MM’s that do end up with big boost, 60lbs injectors bigger/better MAF’s like the BA’s from SCT and etc.

Lidio,
We discussed the pump limitations my last visit. It's been working good with the extra meth, ( I even stepped up a jet) but yes.... you may be installing one for me in a few months, just to make me feel better...
Oh and a re-tune, please.

[ImpalaSlayer]

We just hit a squirrel.

deer, may be more apropriate

[Raudermaster]

deer, may be more apropriate

How about we just drove over a collapsed bridge?

[Glenn]

I have a Lidio Trilogy tune and my car runs a 11.96 with his 101 octane tune. Every ET/HP calulator I've seen puts my car at over 500 HP to do this time. I guess my car has a conservative tune!! Thanks, Lidio.

Glenn :burnout:

PS: w/o bottle
PSS: HP figures are USELESS without real track times to back them up.

[MM03MOK]

We've had no problems with our Blackbird. Zack, you even went down the 1320 in her at Dragway42, a few days after we had her on the dyno at Lidio's. His tune with the kit was right on.

[Bradley G]

Same here Zack!^^ What Mary said, I've raced my Marauder tons and you ran it at Great lakes.
You said it was feeling strong.

[CRUZTAKER]

We just hit a squirrel.


Are calling Lidio a squirel?

Why I outta...:fishslap:

[CRUZTAKER]

I have a Lidio Trilogy tune and my car runs a 11.96 with his 101 octane tune. Every ET/HP calulator I've seen puts my car at over 500 HP to do this time. I guess my car has a conservative tune!! Thanks, Lidio.

Glenn :burnout:

PS: w/o bottle
PSS: HP figures are USELESS without real track times to back them up.

I run low 12's without a blower and it is VERY conservative...

See my Vortech numbers and ....yada yada...:P

Let's get back on track.

A point was made.
Not pointing at a person or product.

[bob6364]

I've personally stood next atleast 200 cars while they where tuned of every make in atleast 6 dyno shops in the Northeast and the last thing that happens is the tunner makes a run everyone cheers or moans and we unstrap the car and go home 1 in 50 cars gets "detuned" but we are talking Mustangs,Vettes and the like not the cleared headed MM owners :rolleyes:

Yes 500 bucks is reasonable in the NE for a "First Tune" with SCT Tuner or chip and dyno time ,the next time on the rollers for a "Tweak" after you changed gears or added meth or something, will be much less....I hope anyways.

I don't see how you can get a tune for 300 dollars when the tuner alone is $350-400 plus dyno time...:poke:

[bob6364]

To get back on the subject i think tuning like anything is an "ART" and to tune so that in case of a sensor failure the computer "Defaults" to a rich "Safe" tune is just brilliant coding and shows a great awareness of what he is doing... hind site being 20/20 maybe Zack should have called Lidio and asked why the tune was the way it was and then after accepting or disagreeing with what was said then brought it here ....just my 2 cents.

[sailsmen]

One thing we need to keep reminding ourselves is technology is changing fast. So is the state of the art.

Just look at whats changed for our Marauders in the past 5 years.

Blow thru MAF is just one example.

We also have to remember that everything has a price consideration. There is a pricing point where a product will not be economically marketable. Compromises are then made, nothing is perfect and can be improved.

We must also remember it is human nature to boast and exagerate, particularly when owners are talking about their cars. Or fishermen about the one that got away.

Kodachrome.................:)

[DEFYANT]

A shot was taken once again at Trilogy and Lidio. Just look at the provocitive title of the thread. And we all know that Trilogys are tuned by Lidio. So when he nit picks the tune like this in a suggestive, way in public.... he is taking a shot. Covertly. And it is humorous to see so many same ole good ole boys saying atta-boy Zack.

If his intentions were genuine, he simply would have posted his tuning concern - period. No guessing games. 99% of the members here dont know what the hell that graph was. I suspect Zack could not correctly decipher it. What better way to get your answer, eh?

**** drama.

I have been to WOT countless times over the last 40K someodd Trilogized - Lidio tuned miles and have no intention to stop.

[Breadfan]

I have been to WOT countless times over the last 40K someodd Trilogized - Lidio tuned miles and have no intention to stop.

:up: WTG! Hope to see the Defyant Marauder around some this year!

I think there's 150+ Trilogy owners with similar sentiments about going WOT. :burnout:

[DOOM]

:up: WTG! Hope to see the Defyant Marauder around some this year!

I think there's 150+ Trilogy owners with similar sentiments about going WOT. :burnout:

I plan on being one of them VERY SOON :drive: :burn: :burnout:

[Zack]

Its a shame this thread turned into pointing the finger at me again.
These are the cars you drive and are proud of.
My bad for bringing up a topic that could potentially improve performance and safety on yours and my car.

I apologize.

[Mike Poore]

So when he nit picks the tune like this in a suggestive, way in public.... he is taking a shot. Covertly. And it is humorous to see so many same ole good ole boys saying atta-boy Zack.

If his intentions were genuine, he simply would have posted his tuning concern - period. No guessing games. 99% of the members here dont know what the hell that graph was. I suspect Zack could not correctly decipher it.

And, Charlie, you're purpose in posting and questioning anyone's "genuine intentions" was what?

So far as Zack being able to decipher those data; between him and John, plus Lideo's explanation about why it's done that way, helped the 99% understand some of it.

So long as anyone has something constructive to add, this thread will live, otherwise I'll shut it down.

[KillJoy]

A shot was taken once again at Trilogy and Lidio.

And wasn't an improvement and/or modification made to the Trilogy kit beacuse of it?

:dunno:

KillJoy

[magindat]

Its a shame this thread turned into pointing the finger at me again.
These are the cars you drive and are proud of.
My bad for bringing up a topic that could potentially improve performance and safety on yours and my car.

I apologize.

This SUX! Let friggin by gones be by gones!!!

Once again, so what Zack has no tact. He's a smart dude getting smarter and a marvelous Marauder mechanic. He has taught us PLENTY. Don't believe me? Do a search!

The only individual who got defensive here is Lidio. Sorry to say it. Read back over the thread. It's true.

Lidio, I don't know you, do respect you and hope someday to meet you. That said, I'll post he same idea here I posted to Jerry (which got deleted) last time Zack tried to bring awareness. You are a successful and well known as well as well reputed business man. It is unprofessional for you to reply to Zack in the biting way that you did. If you felt Zack was on the attack, you should have SET AN EXAMPLE of how to act instead of stooping to his level and return the barbs - which I honestly believe weren't intended to be barbs. Thank you, however for the history lesson. We have all benefited from you knowledge... again. Lidio, you have nothing to defend.

We're all human and can get rattled. We all know Zack. Take the delivery with a grain of salt and read through to the knowledge. If'n you can't do that go read a different thread.

I for one am learning, here. I'm learning about tuning, the business of tuning, history of tuning and about people.

Each individual has had some valuable input o this thread and I appreciate it. Just settle down and let it play out so I can learn more.

We are family and like all family, we have all kinds of personalities - like it or not. You wouldn't throw your cousin out of the family due to the way he speaks. Zack doesn't deserve it, either. OHANA.

Back to the subject:

Are we saying tuners back off of on the tune after the 'final' sheet?

Are we saying there's more in a Trilogy tune safely?

[Lidio]

My bad for bringing up a topic that could potentially improve performance and safety on yours and my car.




I don’t mean to drag this on -- But your backhanded apology is not accepted!! At least not by me!!


Over all dependability and great performance is what I've worked my ass off for the last 18 years I've been in business...

[1stMerc]

As with all informative threads like this, given the history, you wonder who will be the one to turn it ugly. There is always egos or persecution thoughts that get in the way. Lets grow up people.

On the history note, I would not blame any tuner for backing out a little on the tuning. Given the way we drive these cars, as testified by some of the posts, said tuner has to insure his reputation stays in tact for future owner/modders. In this day and age of sue/blame someone it is a necessity. Before you say not me, who knows what one would do given a certain situations and the possiblity of receiving__________ you fill in the blank.

[TooManyFords]

I don’t mean to drag this on -- But your backhanded apology is not accepted!! At least not by me!!

Over all dependability and great performance is what I've worked my ass off for the last 18 years I've been in business...

Lidio,
It would be helpful if maybe you could explain it to everyone why the base fuel table Zack shows is the way it should be. Was this an early attempt at a tune that has since been changed? Is the updated tune available to all Trilogy owners if it has been updated?

I have no vested interest in this thread other than information and the fact that I too tune with SCT software. I'm just curious is all and to be honest, those base fuel tables do not look right to me either... But that is why I suggested the Wideband to verify what is really happening. The old "many ways to skin the cat" sort of thing.

And just as an aside, business man to business man, I would rethink your method of replying to posts. Right, wrong or indifferent, you are not leading by example. You still have a lot of potential new customers on this forum and there is no need to be defensive.

Cheers

[Bradley G]

Years ago Lidio told me this similar timeline of how Trilogys' Origional Autologic tune was transferred/copied to the SCT software.

He mentioned there were a few, if armed with this information could/would make things difficult.
Well Lideo is smart beyond the typed words.

Kick a dog enough he may just leave .
How about some respect?

[sailsmen]

Every S/C kit has been improved since it first came out. You cannot properly judge based on todays State of the Art againest what was the State of the Art in the past, unless of course you are in a court of law where in many cases a change in the state of the art is not recognized.

To put some of the above threads have referenced in perspective;
"First off, please let me state that I am not here to create and rift or issues. I'm only here to clarify any incorrect information, and I will do it with tact and professionalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikesMerc The issue being discussed here is whether the Trilogy kit is inherently flawed because the IAT is at the MAF. Most of us contend that the answer is no.
In my professional opinion, I would state that is a flaw in the system. Futhermore, there is another inherent design flaw in the Marauder kit, and that being only one port that actually sees boost, and it's only used for a boost gauge. Therefore, the FRPS (fuel rail pressure sensor) does not reference boost, and it only sees intake vacuum (never boost). This isn't so much of an issue if the car is tuned for a specific boost level, but once boost is raised then it must ALWAYS be retuned, otherewise it'll lean out, regardless that it has a MAF sensor.

With proper FRPS boost referencing, and a properly tuned MAF curve, one would not have to have their vehicle returned for small changes in boost (generally changes of 2 to 6 psi either way). This also only applies if the spark table has been properly tuned, in both the spark values inputted, and also proper Load axis scaling, otherwise the pcm will continue to use the same spark values when increasing the boost, and that's not a good thing at all.

This is not a bash on Trilogy, but rather simple facts. I would hope that they would use information that myself and other prominent professional tuners give them to improve their kit even further, because it is a nice system with a LOT of potential and promise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikesMerc Powersurge already posted the fact that the OEM cobras also have there IAT sensors in the intake tube. The IAT2 (which is after the blower) doesn't do squat to the timing or tune.
Let me stress that the information you were given is 100% incorrect!

The IAT2 on a Lightning and on a Cobra, and on ANY supercharged Ford that has two IAT sensors, is specifically used to add/retard spark based on post-blower temps. This is fact. From the factory, when post-blower temps exceed 100 degrees F on either a Lightning or a Cobra, the pcm will use a multiplier, based from two different parameters, to determine how much spark to retard. The higher the post-blower temps get, the more spark is retarded. If one has done much datalogging on a Cobra and a Lightning, they will find that even with the very efficient intercoolers the IAT2 will generally always be above 100 degrees, regardless of outside weather. From the factory, Ford's programming is already retarding spark based on IAT2! I'm more than happy to post up screenshots of various parameters so that I can help to properly educate everyone to cause and effect. Please just let me know if you would like such.

So everyone will know, I study IAT temps *extensively*. It is something I do not only for work, and I do it daily, but also for fun. One of my product lines for intercooled vehicles is also heavily involved in this regard.
Quote:
A much better approach to tuning is to assume the intercooler is working as designed and then dictate exactly what you want to happen in the tune. Powersurge commented on this as well and I fully agree. So does Lidio. We spoke on this matter. "Adaptive" tuning is NOT the way you want to go with a high horsepower car.
"Assuming" is never smart when it comes to tuning. Using actual data supplied correctly is. Adaptive spark correction, due to changes in conditions, is 100% proper and correct.
Quote:
The reality of "well, what if my inter cooler stops working" is a silly reason to go through the time and energy to re locate the IAT sensor. I suppose I could have a sensor on my bumper that will warn me if my bumper falls off too...but is it really what I need?
I just do not understand the logic of comparing a bumper falling off to something as important as proper placement of an IAT sensor? If you go by that, then just take off the IAT sensor altogether. Who needs it, right?

There has been many Ford supercharged vehicles that have had their IC (intercooler) pumps up and fail. Not a month goes by that I do not get a Lightning to dyno tune that has a bad IC pump. Before I dyno tune them, I do check every supercharged vehicle with an IC pump for proper pump function, but one can also easily determine via a datalog if something is out of ordinary with the IC system. At times I'll get a vehicle in with the IC pump working, but somewhere along the line it stops working (not too often, but it does happen). Having my datalogging program set for me to be able to see post-blower temps can allow me to abort a dyno pull before its too late.
Quote:
Apparently the OEMs felt the risk was very very small.
Being that this applies to your first paragraph of your post, it doesn't any longer apply. However, I do want to state that Ford, and other OEM manufacturers, do feel that proper placement of the IAT sensor is very critical to proper function of the system as a whole. Ford put the IAT2 sensor on their supercharged cars to after the blower purposely, and for good reason, and exactly why I explained above.
Quote:
Zack, your answer is right there for you. Just ask Powersurge and Lidio what they do with IAT sensor readings for intercooled SC applications and you'll have an even more obvious answer.
I know Powersurge (Sal, if that is him), quite well. I'm actually surprised he didn't know that IAT2 is the one the pcm uses for spark function. Are you sure you didn't mistake him?
Quote:
Another thing to consider is that we haven't seen FoMoCo do a recall on the eaton Supercharged Cobra to update its use of the IAT2 just because they figured out how to do it for the new Shelby. Technology advanced and the IAT2 is now optimally placed. But that doesn't make the previous application unreliable or unsafe.
FoMoCo won't have to recall, because they already have it placed and utilized by the pcm properly, and that's the exact same way they are doing it even on the new Shelby (btw, which I have one on order; OMG I can't wait!).

I realize I've already disputed correctly the incorrect information you were given, and I don't want to keep reiterating the facts over and over, as that can be viewed as somewhat a slap. However, since you now know the information you were given was indeed incorrect, I'm sure you can feel more confident in knowing the realities of the matter.


Now, in regards to retuning a vehicle that has the IAT sensor moved to post-blower, someone, and I can't recall who, stated it would take a lot of work to redo the programming to work with the relocation. That's actually very incorrect, as well. Fact, it takes about 30 to 60 seconds to rescale the pcm's IAT parameters for relocation of the IAT sensor. There is actually only 1 that needs to be rescaled, tho better use of the pcm's IAT spark function can come by rescaling two parameters. Since I dyno tune so many Cobras and Lightnings, and various other supercharged vehicles, I know exactly where these parameters should be set.

Everyone, my information given is for the benefit of the entire aftermarket industry. Please understand that I would not give it out for any reason other than to help, especially when I see that it is needed. Proper education of individuals within this industry and community has always been my ultimate goal.

I do not plan to post here often, tho I hope I am welcome to give my professional expertise from time to time, because I can assure you that it is very valuable.

Very Sincerely,

James"

[sailsmen]

"Last edited by RWTD : Today at 04:36 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallboy James, welcome aboard and thanks for your input! You are obviously quite knowledgeable, and I have a couple questions. Now, I know it's probably not that big of a deal to physically add the IAT2 to the system. But, there's no harness, so how and where do you tap into the PCM to add the info? Would the PCM even recognize it, since the car didn't have one from the factory?Wouldn't the car need a complete re-tune?
As we all know, from the factory, non-supercharged vehicles have their IAT placement either in the inlet tube or in the MAF. Some older vehicles have the IAT in the intake itself (i.e. ole skool Fox Mustang). All the pcm cares about is that there is an IAT sensor (otherwise a DTC will be set if there isn't one, and the default ACT temperature scalar will be used to help preserve safety (which is 100 degrees from the factory). It doesn't realize if it is before or after the intake.

In my prior post, I stated this:
Quote:
Now, in regards to retuning a vehicle that has the IAT sensor moved to post-blower, someone, and I can't recall who, stated it would take a lot of work to redo the programming to work with the relocation. That's actually very incorrect, as well. Fact, it takes about 30 to 60 seconds to rescale the pcm's IAT parameters for relocation of the IAT sensor. There is actually only 1 that needs to be rescaled, tho better use of the pcm's IAT spark function can come by rescaling two parameters. Since I dyno tune so many Cobras and Lightnings, and various other supercharged vehicles, I know exactly where these parameters should be set.
The main parameter that needs to be rescaled is the "Spark Retard for ACT" function (ACT = IAT). From the factory, it looks like this:
Code:
ACT Advance
254 -150
150 -50
90 10
76 36
50 50
-256 50
-256 50
The value on the left if ACT temp, and the value on the right is a multiplier that is multiplied by a value from the "Spark Retard ACT Multiplier" table. This table is comprised of 6 columns and 5 rows. On the X-axis, there is Load values (calculated by the pcm based on the MAF readings), and on the Y-axis there are RPM values. For an example, from the factory, if RPM is 4492.8, Load is 0.898 or higher, and ACT is 90 degrees, then the amount of spark retarded would 2.535 degrees. If we increase the ACT to value to 150 degrees, then you'd have 7.605 degrees of spark being retarded from the spark calculation.

All in all, IAT spark functions by the pcm are really simple, and *very* easy to adjust. With some minor datalogging, one could figure exactly what to rescale it to, and an excellent start would be to use the factory '03/'04 Cobra values.
Quote:
The Trilogy kit has outsold all others combined by a wide, wide margin, and I have yet to hear of any inherent problems. I know more than a few nationally known tuners who have custom-tuned many of these cars, and it was never mentioned before. Thanks in advance for your answers.
That's great to hear! I would expect this, especially considering that PDB (positive displacement blower) systems are the most popular supercharger systems lately, especially when it comes to a heavier vehicle. There isn't anything like the rush one gets at all throttle positions with a PDB setup!

In regards to these particular situations that have been being discussed lately (IAT placement, and no FRPS boost referencing), naturally these kits can still perform well when they are tuned for a given boost level. However, changes in weather can and will affect the tuning, especially the spark and the afr, and changes in boost will obviously affect it as well. All anyone wants is an entire system that works in a way that can correct for changes in conditions, and do it with safety in mind.

This subject has been basically beat to death on multiple forums for many years. It's been expertly discussed why there should be IAT placement of post-blower, and why there should be boost referencing by the FRPS. However, you would be so very surprised at all these so called "expert tuners" who actually don't care, and many that do not give it any more thought than the misinformed consumer. People will always continue to choose to ignore the facts and/or rationale.

Sincerely,

James"

[GAMike]

This thread should have been started if at all, after an offline conversation/PM with Lidio or any vendor for that matter. Only after this or attempts at this should it be positioned online.

It should have been.................... During my investigation of the following issue I came to a conclusion that bla bla bla bla......... After a discussion with ________(Insert vendor or name here) it was explained to me that this is the reason it is what it is. Based on this explanation, I told ______(Insert vendor again) as I am telling you know I agree / disagree for the following reasons.

Or something like that........ I know we are all different, but when you are questioning someone elses professional motives, or expertise there is no excuse of lack of tact regardless if you have significant experience yourself.

If you truly want to understand the situation you will put the issues on point and not focus the thread on your expertise vs. someone elses. The competition is in the 1/4 mile, the road courses, the customization to individual taste and the reliability/driveability of our cars, not what people carry around in their brain about the cars and the ego that goes with it.

The ego/ "I know a secret that you don't know" thing is what screws the pooch for everybody. I know wintertime is idle time in some parts of the country, and that is when this type of thread usually surfaces, but try, just try to take a different approach for a change.:burnout:

[MarauderTJA]

A shot was taken once again at Trilogy and Lidio. Just look at the provocitive title of the thread. And we all know that Trilogys are tuned by Lidio. So when he nit picks the tune like this in a suggestive, way in public.... he is taking a shot. Covertly. And it is humorous to see so many same ole good ole boys saying atta-boy Zack.

If his intentions were genuine, he simply would have posted his tuning concern - period. No guessing games. 99% of the members here dont know what the hell that graph was. I suspect Zack could not correctly decipher it. What better way to get your answer, eh?

**** drama.

I have been to WOT countless times over the last 40K someodd Trilogized - Lidio tuned miles and have no intention to stop.

Let's see, oh yeah, Engage Defense Shields. Why is it when "anyone" brings anything up with Trilogy it is "taking shots at Trilogy and/or Lido. I did not view it that way at all. Nothing covert. Reading way to deep into things from our police mentality Charlie. But we all have our own opinion and this is mine. And by no means is this an insult to you or Lidio. It is important for people to listen to many things, do their research and come to their own conclusions. I never have based anything on one experts opinion. Be objective and open-minded and base it on your own research before making changes with tunes. There are "many expert tuners" in this country and you would be surprised how many will respond to a question you have on tuning.

Information, pure and simple. No insults to anyone, just "One persons personal opinion/information on a tune," who IMO is a very knowledgeable mechanic and helpful person around here (AND AT THE TRACK.) Period. Everything with Trilogy seems often to be viewed as threatening, trashing or whatever by certain people. This thread did not pertain to me but I have many friends who have a Trilogy and have had great success at the track and on the street with them.

"We all know that Trilogy's are tuned by Lido." A statement that is only half true. Yes with the orginial chip provided by Trilogy for an admitted great, safe tune developed by Lidio for a specific application that comes with the kit for a stock car. But also, know that Scott Beer has tuned numerous Trilogy cars that make great safe power as well both stock, mildly to heavily modified cars.

The point I am trying to make, is "STOP THE DRAMA AS WELL" with the "same good ole boys too" by saying atta boy whoever......Lets move on.

[Da Dark Jedi]

I don't have a Lidio tune just a modzack version. I'm PROUD to call Zack a friend. I hope to meet Lidio soon, to say the same. Both forums offer me a wealth of info pro & con. I hope Zack continues to post his findings. Ialso hope Lidio will continue to give his input. Five years I've been lurking/watching, good or bad thats why I'm here. Keep it coming Zack & Lidio, this kind of knowledge is GREAT!

Proud to be a member of both sites!!!

[KillJoy]

Wow..... this Thread made the past ***** hit the fan.

EVERYTHING Trilogy related here seems to all end up being a negative.

I say just ban all references to Trilogy.

Yup...... Censorship at it's best.

:rolleyes:

KillJoy

PS - Everyone..... grow the eff up, and take whatever with a grain of salt, and take the poster's tact into perspective.

[CRUZTAKER]

Let's see, oh yeah, Engage Defense Shields. Why is it when "anyone" brings anything up with Trilogy it is "taking shots at Trilogy and/or Lido....

Right on man!

I haven't the patience nor the desire to say what you did...but you are right on.

[Bradley G]

If the tune is set up to go rich in case of a failure, what is your unique risk going full tilt boogie?

The guys that have been here a while, How many times do we need to see this to understanding this is GRANDSTANDING.

[MM2004]

Zack,

I spoke with you earlier, and you have ignored my recommendation of posting up good 411 on what we talked about. Rich vs. Lean condition.

This thread has the potential of very useful information and understanding for many members wanting to learn more about their cars and the tune held within.

Your approach sucked.

Lidio,

You have my highest respect as a tuner. And would not hesitate on you tuning my car. Even though I am N/A.

Your reply to this thread sucked as well.

Superchargers remain a 'hot' topic on this forum and for the life of me cannot figure out why?

We have choices, and the choices made of the members are strong opinionated when it comes to superchargers.

So be it.

I so want to close this thread, but will not as it can be put back on track, that will benefit all members paying attention to this. And to new members that sign up in the future.

Trilogy has been proven to be very reliable and safe for the average street guy that wants more HP to their cars.

You race; you break things. Simple.

Let's get this back on track, or it will be closed.

Mike.

[Paul T. Casey]

Mike, your car's not the only thing with balls around here. :coolman:

[sailsmen]

A Lean condition results in a ventilated condition.

A Rich condition results in a less horse power condition.

I don't understand why a Rich condition would make someone resistant to wide open throttle.

The following shows everything is doing what it is supposed to;
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50 42&d=1102715406

[TooManyFords]

Alright, I have to speak up again...

First, I was the one to interpret the SCT graph for Zack and reported the overly rich Base Fuel Table.

Second, Lidio did nothing to dispell the seemingly over-rich condition either.

Third, If I were Zack, I'd want the rest of the tune analyzed to make sure it is in fact the defacto "Trilogy Tune" and not some mistakenly burned chip.

Fourth, if it is in fact the Trilogy tune, I would be worried about what else is out of kilter in there. Seems to me that there would have to be a ton of overcompensation elsewhere in there to make up for this seemingly incorrect fuel table and I would question whether or not these changes truly cover all adverse conditions the car may experience.

Now, clearly there are a lot of kits out there running and not ventilating blocks. A given and that is good. From my perspective, the ONLY people that should be asking the questions here are the ones that actually know what tuning is and how it affects the car. Everyone else is just speculating and not adding a thing to the discussion. (read, doing more chest thumping and leg humping than anything else.)

So, we need more info and hopefully Lidio will help explain the situation and bring order to chaos.

[KillJoy]

(read, doing more chest thumping and leg humping than anything else.)


KillJoy

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[Bradley G]

"Who's Got the biggest,.. balls of them all?":snare:
Mike, your car's not the only thing with balls around here. :coolman:

[Mike Poore]

"Who's Got the biggest,.. balls of them all?":snare:

Me! Goodnight Irene.