Converter Torque Multiplication:

[BillyGman]

I'm thinking about purchasing an after market torque converter. I'm seeing that the advertised torque multiplication for the one I'm interested in is 2.53:1 w/an alleged stock converter multiplication being 1.93:1.
My question is, would an increased stall speed, or a greater torque multliplication beat up the stock transmission in my MM????

[SergntMac]

IMHO...our 4R70W can take the beating we imagine we are giving it, and more. However, as we increase HP and TQ, we should expect to accelerate the "normal" wear and tear schedule. Things will wear out sooner, that's a part of the mods too.

IMHO....Anything more than a 3000 stall will be inefficient in most applications. It will also create new problems to deal with, such as traction in snow and rain in primary acceleration. If you're going to keep your MM a daily driver, 2800-3000 stall will give you the best performance with the least inconveinence.

To my knowledge, there has been only one 4R70W failure reported here, and that was due to excessive heat. Heat will kill any transmission, so, I don't believe it has anything to do with power, or, the fact that the car was supercharged.

There's a great white paper on the .net, posted here > http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page1.shtml

It may be a long read, but the chapters are concise and well prepared. You'll learn a lot about this tranny, it's worth the time.

As you build your power, and improve moving that power through the drive line, there are a few simple improvements one can accomplish to add some durability and fortify the drive line against sudden breakage.

If you're going to stay N/A, Billy, the Stallion single plate is the best there is in torque converters. Stock stall is 2800, but you cn order a change when you order, and the company offers one free inspection/adjustment over the next two years following purchase. It's a 9" TC, and weigh less that the OEM 11", adding the benefit of reducing parasitic drag in the drive line. Not a bad deal, eh? If you're planning on supercharging, the tripple plate Stallion is the answer...IMHO.

[rurumon]

is there anyway to know for sure whether or not the single plate TCs will hold up?

I guess we dont really have much of a knowledge base to work on, with not too many single plage FI marauders. I imagine the single plate will still work, you just might not get the best efficiency you are looking for.

[BillyGman]

thanx very much for your insight, and I'll checkout that link you've provided. BTW, not to get off-topic here, but my twin brother is also an officer of the law, and when he found out that I bought a MM, he insisted on seeing it immediately. Then when he did, he was drooling. I never saw him so enthusiastic over anything that I've purchased in the past.
rurumon, the company that makes the Stallion,(Precision Industries) told me that it really doesn't matter which one I choose for the MM(single plate or multi-plate) unless I wanted to run the thing in Lock-up at WOT on the track, in which case I'd need the multi-plate model. But listen, it sounds to me like you're indicating by your comments that the model that all the MM owners who are members of this board use is the multiplate model. But I thought that the one that Dennis sells is the single plate version.:confused: Perhaps I was wrong uh????

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by rurumon
is there anyway to know for sure whether or not the single plate TCs will hold up? I guess we dont really have much of a knowledge base to work on, with not too many single plage FI marauders. I imagine the single plate will still work, you just might not get the best efficiency you are looking for.

At the risk of sounding rude, rurumon, which I do not mean to be, if you're still "naturally aspirated," you don't own enough horse power or torque to blow out the Stallion single plate torque converter. The Stallion "single plates" are certified well beyond the capabilities of any MM, short of the few supercharged MMs among us.

[MAD-3R]

So' should I go with the single or triple plate?

[rurumon]

Originally posted by SergntMac
At the risk of sounding rude, rurumon, which I do not mean to be, if you're still "naturally aspirated," you don't own enough horse power or torque to blow out the Stallion single plate torque converter. The Stallion "single plates" are certified well beyond the capabilities of any MM, short of the few supercharged MMs among us.

sorry mac, I was unclear. I meant, is there any way to know for sure if the single plate wont hold up under forced induction. I mean, I definately plan on supercharging somewhere in the short run, but in the mean time I wanted to add the single plate. I hate to install it just to find out it wont hold up much past 450 bhp.

Please stop me before I waste my money, those things arent cheap.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by BillyGman
rurumon, the company that makes the Stallion,(Precision Industries) told me that it really doesn't matter which one I choose for the MM (single plate or multi-plate) unless I wanted to run the thing in Lock-up at WOT on the track, in which case I'd need the multi-plate model. But listen, it sounds to me like you're indicating by your comments that the model that all the MM owners who are members of this board use is the multiplate model. But I thought that the one that Dennis sells is the single plate version.:confused: Perhaps I was wrong uh????


Billy, it's not clear to me if you are speaking about my post or not, but for the record, I never said that, not anything near it. I thought I was pretty clear on what I did say, but maybe we should run through it all one more time, and from the top eh?

The OEM TC is an 11 inch unit that suffers from ballooning over 6000 RPM. It perfect, and safe in bone stock MMs. However, once you add a few common mods, like the Reinhart Stage I program, you have removed the protective limiters, and you'll have the potential to exceed 125 MPH, and 6000 RPM. The chance of failure is greater, and probable, depending on your driving habits. Enter the Precision Industries Stallion single plate TC.

It's smaller, a 9" design. It's torque application is much greater, and it delivers more of your power to the rear wheels. It's also 50 pounds lighter, reducing drive line drag. Add this up, and it's worth the money. You can order any stall you wish, but I suggest 2800 RPM. The stall can be adjusted later, and for free by the Stallion folks within two years of purchase.

My chief point in my first reply in this thread, was about the durability of the 4R70W transmission. That it's durable and has a long history of reliability. That the only danger ahead is to run it hot and burn up the internals, and that there is a great resource on the web that tells all the secrets of the 4R70W, written by a guy who earned his living building them for 11 years.

That said, if you are N/A but with some mods, the single plate Stallion TC will be an improvement over the OEM TC, but a N/A MM still does not have enough power to damage or wear out the single plate Stallion, period. It's the best there is in TCs, and worth every penny. Unless you do something entirely brainless, like run hot, this TC should last you a lifetime in N/A trim. TC lock-up is an option. If you know you want it, order it that way. if you're not sure, it can be locked after the install by a flash to the PCM.

If, and once you supercharge, the single plate Stallion's longevity is not predictable, and you may not enjoy your money's worth over the life of the car. The single plate will wear out and you'll be replacing it much sooner than you would expect. The tripple plate TC was developed by Stallion for supercharged street/strip applications where 400+ HP is seen at the rear wheels. This design should provide you with the lifetime use you would expect from the a single plate design and N/A trim. Lock-up options remain the same.

So, if you already own a single plate Stallion when you supercharge, keep your single plate in place and see what happens, or, sell it to a friend and upgrade to the tripple plate. Buying a used Stallion from another MM owner is a safe buy.

Mad-3R, I'm not sure where you are with you're "one of a kind." You're surely putting a lot more power to the wheels than any other N/A MM, and you're driving her hard on a regular basis. I believe the single plate will be an improvement over the OEM TC, and sufficient for your driving needs. I wasn't far from you with my first MM, power-wise that is, and my single plate just sucked up the power and pushed it through to the wheels effortlessly. Buy a single plate, you're already locked in the PCM from your dyno tune. You won't benefit from the tripple plate, or justify the additional costs. BTW, the guy who dynoed your MM, is the writer of the white paper I pointed to in my first post.

Gentlemen, I have no idea what to expect from adding a tripple plate TC to a N/A MM. It's your guess, but I suggst that to do so may be premature and may not show any benefit at all due to a lack of power. Therefore, I'll adhere to my first advice. N/A = Single plate. S/C = Tripple plate.

Get blown first, then upgrade the TC...IMHO.

[rurumon]

well i guess that settles it, no TC until supercharging. Thanks for the info mac. Problem is, what do I do with the 800 bucks I was going to blow on the TC in the first place? Already have the stage 1 and the gears on my list. And Im a power man, not a brake man....yet.

[MAD-3R]

You could buy me one. :)

[BillyGman]

my last post wasn't directed at you or at any of your comments, but that's okay because I welcome your comments anyway.
I don't plan on ever supercharging my MM. I don't have that kind of cash to spend on it. However I do plan on buying the Stallion converter because I think that the stock one is inadequate, and Precision industries claim a HP gain to the rear wheels weather your car is S/C'd or not as well as a .50 reduction in your ET. Furthermore, I believe there are a number of members on this board who have installed the Stallion T/C w/out S/Cing their MM, and who report a significant difference. Thanx for your reply.......

[austin-tatious]

Originally posted by BillyGman
Precision industries claim a HP gain to the rear wheels weather your car is S/C'd or not as well as a .50 reduction in your ET.


marauder2306 says he got a 14.78 ET with these mods:

DRP Chip, 4.10, 180 Stat & Motorcraft plugs.

My SergntMac 1st MM had the same mods PLUS the PI TC installed when Mac got 14.2 ETs last May. Is it a coincidence the times are almost exactly 0.5 sec quicker with the PI TC?

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by austin-tatious
Is it a coincidence the times are almost exactly 0.5 sec quicker with the PI TC?

No, it's not. Even that day, there were a few MMs without the TC, and they ran 14.7/.8.

The thing to keep in mind, is a little caution when explaining power development with a Stallion TC. I ran back to back dynos for before and after results, and the Stallion upgrade did not produce much power at all. I'm fine with this, because the Stallion doesn't produce power, it only delivers what power you have to the wheels, thats usually absorbed in TC overhead. Your seat of your pants, and your time slip will show you the Stallion is on the job. Matter of semantics I suppose, but some people are picky on that.

rurumon, since you're sold on supercharging, that 800 bucks could go towards the DynaTech drive shaft and 8.8 upgrades, i.e. stud kit and gridle. These components are next in line for upgrades, they too will be affected by 400+ HP being pushed into them. The shaft is balanced through 12,000 RPM and comes with beefy Dana u-joints, and the stud kit and girdle will keep your ring and pinion from coming out the back, or warping your axels. 800 bucks will be well spent here, set it up right and forget about them.

[BillyGman]

#1. If you didn't see a difference fom the PI converter in the Dyno #'s, then that must not have been a chassis Dyno you're talking about, because if the T/C is delivering more of the power to the rear wheels that the engine is making, then wouldn't that be seen in the Dyno numbers w/a chassis Dyno? Or have I missed something here?
#2.I've written to Dynotech as well as talked to them on the phone, and the guy on the phone told me that their MM driveshaft(and they only make one for the MM) is balanced at 6000RPM, and the guy from Dynotech that returned my E-mail told me that it's balanced at 5000RPM's. So I'm surprised to hear a claim that they're balanced at 12,000 RPM because that would mean that both guys from Dynotech that I've been in contact w/are wrong.

[SergntMac]

Well okay then, Billy, you are well connected on the 411 after all. Good. Funny, it was the same dyno we all use, and the numbers didn't show on the dyno as I was promised. Rather than write some e-mail, I went to the track. The changes did show on my time slip, so, in my book, there is a bonus to installing the Stallion TC. Do you disagree with the end result?

Since you have so much e-mail going on, let me step back from helping out. The drive shaft I have was purchased over a year ago, and it's been a year of problem free driving. If you don't think you need it, please don't spend any money on my word. Just promise to drop me a line after 10,000 miles of spirited driving, I'd like to hear from you then.

[BillyGman]

is a failure to communicate. Let me remind you that I was the one in this thread who stated that installing the Stallion T/C should benefit even those MM's that aren't S/C'd whereas you were the one suggesting that a "N/A" MM wouldn't benefit from it, and that we should do the S/Cer thing before even installing the T/C. So apparently you have a problem w/me pointing out to you that the driveshaft manufactured by Dynotech is NOT balanced at 12,000 RPM's "EH"? Is that what this is all about. I started this thread out by asking some questions, and contrary to what you might think, I do appreciate fellow members of this board attempting to answer those questions. But while attempting to answer, if you state something that isn't factual, then I'm going to point that out in the most polite and respectful way that I can. So what's the big deal, eh? And again you've taken me ALL wrong, because the fact is, that I have decided to purchase one of Dynotech's driveshafts. So my motive for pointing out to you that they aren't balanced at 12,000 RPM's was not any attempt on my part to state that the part isn't a good one. K? I'm beginning to think that you and I should just agree to disagree in order to keep the peace around here. And I sincerely do want to keep the peace. You're not making it easy friend......

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Get blown first, then upgrade the TC...IMHO. :rolleyes:

[MAD-3R]

I belive that sarge was saying, is IF you were going to get a Supercharger in the near future, get it before the torque converter.

[rurumon]

Originally posted by SergntMac

rurumon, since you're sold on supercharging, that 800 bucks could go towards the DynaTech drive shaft and 8.8 upgrades, i.e. stud kit and gridle. These components are next in line for upgrades, they too will be affected by 400+ HP being pushed into them. The shaft is balanced through 12,000 RPM and comes with beefy Dana u-joints, and the stud kit and girdle will keep your ring and pinion from coming out the back, or warping your axels. 800 bucks will be well spent here, set it up right and forget about them.


Thanks for the advice mac. Maybe I'll just save the money until I get a job out of college. College life is too short to spend all my money on car parts. :D