Engine tapping or ticking

[Paul]

I have a slight tapping sound I can hear at idle most of the time - first noticed it when I was in Bradenton for the Sunshine State marauders picnic in February. I can hear it after start up, before the engine is fully warm, and also after a 35 minute commute to/from work - fully warmed up. I used a mechanic's stethoscope and can hear it when touching the oil pan below the crank. I don't hear it from the timing cover, or the water pump, or the tensioner. I have valve train noise from the driver's side, too, but that's a separate sound. The car has 87K on the clock. I also have most of a centrifugal SC kit sitting in my garage waiting for install, by the way.

I had a Blackstone oil analysis done in December, and the only things they noted were a little too much silicon (needed more oil on the K&N I guess) and too much copper. They commented it could mean a bearing - but I had forgotten to tell them I have an oil relocation kit with brass pipe fittings, so that could have been the source.

Obviously, I am concerned that I have a problem with something deeply internal. I am going to the dealership tomorrow to get their opinion. If it is a crank bearing, or something equally expensive to repair - should I get it done proactively, or wait until it gives out?

Any and all thoughts/opinions will be appreciated.

[sailsmen]

I had a sound from my engine. Myself and 2 different mechanics had 3 different opinons.

We all agreed the motor was hurt.

I could hear it and they had to listen, becuase I know whcih sounds are normal and can easily tune those out.

For $20 I would do another oil analysis. I think the MM always show high copper.

[Paul]

Good idea - I was going to wait til I was due for an oil change in 1,000 miles, but there's no real reason not to do it now. I'm running Royal Purple 5W20, and changing every 5,000 miles, so the oil has plenty of mileage on it now to give meaningful data.

Did your sound result in a breakdown? Or are you waiting to see what happens?

[hot-rauder]

after an OASIS report i noticed that my crank, bearing, and oil pump have all been replaced, due to knocking in the cold weather. ( car had 35k on it then)

my car still has this ticking noise that i cant explain and the mechanic that looked at it said it was lifter tick. at WOT you can hear the noise but it isnt too extreme

[sailsmen]

Replacing the motor w/ a Ford Long Block Cobra Reman and a complete rebuild of the MM.

[GTABurnout]

My two Valve has a simulare tick but after tons of time trying to locate the problem I have pretty much washed it off to noisy valve train. Never noticed a change in the noise in 20K miles.

[Hacklemerc]

Mine had a tick in the same area. I took it up to the dealer and they discovered it was a bad bearing that had pretty much wrecked my crank sending shredded metal up into the valve train and destroyed a couple of valves and a piston. I got a new motor out of the deal tho. Just my .02 but I would say try to catch it before it gets too bad.

[ImpalaSlayer]

adam our engines dont have lifters. i would maybe consider a new mechanic

[Raudermaster]

Adam it's popular with early build A's. It's the driver side head, it has nothing to do with crank or anything.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

What month range would qualify as an "Early" A?

[Raudermaster]

I'm not sure, someone with more knowledge will have to chime in. Perhaps RoyLPita can tell you by the VINs he's ran?

[hot-rauder]

Adam it's popular with early build A's. It's the driver side head, it has nothing to do with crank or anything.


good cause the bearing and crank have already been replaced so i was hoping it wasnt going to be them again..... what is it with the drivers side head that makes it tap?

[Paul]

Took the car into the LM dealer and had their engine tech check it out. When I dropped the car off, we talked while he did a quick check with the engine idling. He revved the engine using the TB linkage, and was able to generate a loud knock. Ouch. Left the car with them for the day. When I picked it up at the end of the day, his diagnosis was that it was the #1 cylinder - either piston slap from a worn piston or a bad bearing. Because the oil pressure is good, he's leaning towards the piston slap.

I remember reading a thread here wherein a member stated that carbon buildup could result in deposits which cause a knock, and that seafoam could clear it out. I have 87k on my car, which has been modded starting since it had about 5k on it, and has been running 1-step colder than stock spark plugs with a dyno tune since 20k-something miles - always naturally aspirated so far.

I also noted that early in the MM life modders were putting 1-step colder plugs in NA cars and 2-steps colder in those using forced induction. Now, the consensus appears to be stock plugs for tuned NA and 1-step colder for FI. Is this because people were experiencing carbon buildup?

Anyway, I decided to seafoam the car just to see what would happen. I've run it through the tank several times over the past year, but never through the intake vacuum lines. I did it late Friday night (so my neighbors wouldn't see the smoke and call the FD - lol). First time, I added about 1/3 of pint (per label) and let it soak for about 30 minutes, started it up, ran it smooth, but no smoke (I barely revved it to avoid waking neighbors). Figuring I did something wrong (label says soak 5 minutes), I did it again, this time the rest of the can.

Still no smoke on startup. Decided to take it out for a drive, and as I stepped on the gas, I got smoke! I proceeded to fog my neighborhood as I drove out. When I got to the main road, I gunned it and it ran rough, big white cloud, and I heard some brief knocking - like something was knocked loose - let off the gas, pulled over, turned around. The clatter stopped as soon as I let off the gas, but the smoke continued. Shortly, the smoke diminished and I decided to take her up on the highway. I did, performed three WOT merges/exits, (peaked at 110 MPH on 1 of 'em :D) and cruised at 85 in between with the OD off. No more knocking during this, by the way, not after that early brief experience.

Went home, didn't hear any tapping. Drove car around Saturday on my usual weekend routine. When I got home, car was good and warm - no tapping. I revved the engine like the LM tech did - no knocking. Today I put in stock heat range plugs. Ran car to warm, revved from linkage - no knocking, no tapping. Seafoamed it again tonight - much less smoke. But I did get a nice cloud when I ran it to 6000 rpm.

So - am I living in a fantasy world? Is the apparent absence of tap/knock temporary, caused by upper cylinder lubricating properties of seafoam? Or did I knock loose a hunk of carbon - and never have a bad piston/worn bearing?? What do you guys think?

[Raudermaster]

I would lean towards Seafoam worked its magic. That is good news though. They also recommend changing the oil within 100 miles of performing a Seafoam treament. I would do one more tank of gas, then do an oil change on it. That is good, because now the people have been experiencing knocking can just go buy a can of Seafoam and see if it will take their troubles away. (hint Adam.)

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

I would be very wary of anything performing a miracle. Whatever just quieted down may be ready for a disaster

[hot-rauder]

I would lean towards Seafoam worked its magic. That is good news though. They also recommend changing the oil within 100 miles of performing a Seafoam treament. I would do one more tank of gas, then do an oil change on it. That is good, because now the people have been experiencing knocking can just go buy a can of Seafoam and see if it will take their troubles away. (hint Adam.)


terrified to do the Seafoam thing... you can come do it for me JArod. i wont do it myself.

[dreydin]

ive had a bottle of this sitting around for a good while now.. im a little nervous to do it myself =x

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

The fact that all of the redneck guys on thirdgen.org, etc tout it as the miracle cure-all, but have no idea why they are using it, permenantly scares me away from ever using it.

[RF Overlord]

No one should be scared to use SeaFoam. I've used it a number of times on various autos and had no issues at all.

Along with AutoRx, Techron, Regane, VSOT, and GM's EOS, it is one of the few automotive chemicals which actually works as claimed and has no down side, IF USED AS DIRECTED.

[Raudermaster]

What Bob said. There's a number of people who DON'T follow the directions and they have to end up replacing their plugs/wires and whatever else they fouled up just because they were in a "hurry" and wanted it done. You need a good hour or two to make sure you follow all steps properly. FYI it's NOT good to start your car with the Seafoam in and REV it hard. Just a few blips of the throttle will do it.

[dreydin]

well, i know you can just dump the bottle in your tank, but isnt it ideal to use it elsewhere as well? like some valves/hoses or something? this is why i havnt used it yet, bc i dont know how to use it effectively. does anyone have any detailed steps for ours cars or pictures? id really like to use this stuff but im very hesitant. thanks to anyone who doesnt say "use search."

[RF Overlord]

I won't say "use search", but I found these directions in about 12 seconds on SeaFoam's web site:

"With engine warm, slowly pour 1/3 to 1/2 pint through carburetor or throttle body throat. (If vehicle is port injected slowly pour SEA FOAM through direct manifold vacuum line that will feed all cylinders, possible sources are P.C.V. valve or brake booster line.) This will pull SEA FOAM down on top of the pistons and to the back of the intake valves to dissolve carbon. Turn ignition off. Restart engine after 5 minutes. If severe carbon build up is apparent, use more Sea Foam as previously directed. Make sure exhaust is well ventilated when using Sea Foam in these various ways as fumes will be extreme for a short time."

The bold text is what applies to our motor.

[94_302]

I followed these instructions when I did it in the marauder. http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2169829&postcount=3

While they have a different version of the 4.6 DOHC motor I figured they knew the best way to do it since it seems a number of members had done it.

[MADRODER]

Used it for 4 yrs+ on ALL my cars, never had one problem. As stated before follow the directions and you'll be fine.

[Paul]

Yesterday morning while idling the car to warm up before driving to work, I heard a light tapping again. I revved the motor from the throttle linkage, but no knock/rattle or anything bad. But still the tapping at idle. Can't hear anything at higher RPM, if it's there, exhaust drowns it out.

On way home bought two more cans of seafoam. Last night I put nearly a whole can of seafoam through the vacuum line and let it soak for 4 hours. Then I put 4-5 ounces into a half full gas tank. After driving out the smoke cloud last night, no tapping at idle. This morning while idling to warm up, no tapping. Same thing when letting it idle for 30 minutes during lunch. Then I decided to pour the second Seafoam can into the crankcase oil to clean for a couple hundred miles before I change the oil next weekend.

Could the seafoam be quieting the tapping due to upper cylinder lubrication? If so, doesn't that rule out crank bearing? Maybe it's a worn valve guide/seal or whatever we have? The extra top end lube makes it quiet until it wears away? What do you guys think?

[hot-rauder]

Yesterday morning while idling the car to warm up before driving to work, I heard a light tapping again. I revved the motor from the throttle linkage, but no knock/rattle or anything bad. But still the tapping at idle. Can't hear anything at higher RPM, if it's there, exhaust drowns it out.

On way home bought two more cans of seafoam. Last night I put nearly a whole can of seafoam through the vacuum line and let it soak for 4 hours. Then I put 4-5 ounces into a half full gas tank. After driving out the smoke cloud last night, no tapping at idle. This morning while idling to warm up, no tapping. Same thing when letting it idle for 30 minutes during lunch. Then I decided to pour the second Seafoam can into the crankcase oil to clean for a couple hundred miles before I change the oil next weekend.

Could the seafoam be quieting the tapping due to upper cylinder lubrication? If so, doesn't that rule out crank bearing? Maybe it's a worn valve guide/seal or whatever we have? The extra top end lube makes it quiet until it wears away? What do you guys think?



mine has that tapping at idle too but i have not done the seafoam yet

[Paul]

Could the seafoam be quieting the tapping due to upper cylinder lubrication? If so, doesn't that rule out crank bearing? Maybe it's a worn valve guide/seal or whatever we have? The extra top end lube makes it quiet until it wears away? What do you guys think?

bump

Anyone have an opinion?

[GreekGod]

bump

Anyone have an opinion?

I doubt it is a valve guide. If it was a worn guide, you would eventually have (combustion) pressure in the crankcase, and it would sound louder when removing the oil fill cap.

Since...

"When I picked it up at the end of the day, his diagnosis was that it was the #1 cylinder - either piston slap from a worn piston or a bad bearing. Because the oil pressure is good, he's leaning towards the piston slap"

I would stay with the professional's opinion. Perhaps go back to him and see what he now says?

[Marauderjack]

I doubt it is a valve guide. If it was a worn guide, you would eventually have (combustion) pressure in the crankcase, and it would sound louder when removing the oil fill cap.

How do you figure a worn valve guide could pressurize the crank case??:confused:

[GreekGod]

How do you figure a worn valve guide could pressurize the crank case??:confused:

When a guide gets loose enough, combustion pressure from the chamber leaks past the guide, into the area above the valves. It will start with a ticking sound, and as the guide wears, it leaks more and more pressure into the valve area, which is (actually) part of the crankcase.

[Paul]

Update: I think the seafoam is masking the tapping sound due to its upper cylinder lubricating properties. After I use up the rest of this tank of gas, and maybe a second tank of straight gasoline, I expect the sound will come back. At the end of the day, I now think I had two issues: the clatter the dealer tech got when revving the engine from the TB linkage was carbon buildup, which I have now cleaned out via seafoam; and whatever hardware is worn and making that other tapping sound. Question is, is it upper or lower? Piston or bearing? Then, do I replace the one bad part, or get a short or long block? New and forged is too expensive - so reman or used? On top of the tapping, I also have a noisy driver's side head - despite a DR rear engine cooling kit put on by the prior owner back when the car was young - approx 60K miles ago. My SC kit is gonna be an expensive garage decoration for awhile....:(

[hot-rauder]

Update: I think the seafoam is masking the tapping sound due to its upper cylinder lubricating properties. After I use up the rest of this tank of gas, and maybe a second tank of straight gasoline, I expect the sound will come back. At the end of the day, I now think I had two issues: the clatter the dealer tech got when revving the engine from the TB linkage was carbon buildup, which I have now cleaned out via seafoam; and whatever hardware is worn and making that other tapping sound. Question is, is it upper or lower? Piston or bearing? Then, do I replace the one bad part, or get a short or long block? New and forged is too expensive - so reman or used? On top of the tapping, I also have a noisy driver's side head - despite a DR rear engine cooling kit put on by the prior owner back when the car was young - approx 60K miles ago. My SC kit is gonna be an expensive garage decoration for awhile....:(


Paul... my car is doing the exact same thin, although i opted not to seafoam. my car is going in Friday to be fixed. Whatever is wrong with it i will let you know first. Mine has a tap at idle and now at high RPMs it is starting to make a fluttering tapping sound.

my main bearing, crank, and oil pump have already been replaced.
51k on the car:(

[Marauderjack]

Update: I think the seafoam is masking the tapping sound due to its upper cylinder lubricating properties. After I use up the rest of this tank of gas, and maybe a second tank of straight gasoline, I expect the sound will come back. At the end of the day, I now think I had two issues: the clatter the dealer tech got when revving the engine from the TB linkage was carbon buildup, which I have now cleaned out via seafoam; and whatever hardware is worn and making that other tapping sound. Question is, is it upper or lower? Piston or bearing? Then, do I replace the one bad part, or get a short or long block? New and forged is too expensive - so reman or used? On top of the tapping, I also have a noisy driver's side head - despite a DR rear engine cooling kit put on by the prior owner back when the car was young - approx 60K miles ago. My SC kit is gonna be an expensive garage decoration for awhile....:(

Paul....my $.02 worth??:cool:

If you have enough carbon built up to cause detonation or pistons hitting valves you would destroy the motor in short order.....Seafoam may eliminate some carbon buildup but it ain't gonna fix or even mask a mechanical problem!!:shake:

You may have some piston slap or quite possibly a bad timing chain tensioner....maybe even a sloppy wrist pin but I don't think the magic of Seafoam would make any of this go away??:confused:

Good Luck and I look forward to the diagnosis and fix!!:beer:

Maraudejack:burnout:

[GreekGod]

Paul....my $.02 worth??

If you have enough carbon built up to cause detonation or pistons hitting valves you would destroy the motor in short order.....Seafoam may eliminate some carbon buildup but it ain't gonna fix or even mask a mechanical problem!!

You may have some piston slap or quite possibly a bad timing chain tensioner....maybe even a sloppy wrist pin but I don't think the magic of Seafoam would make any of this go away??

Good Luck and I look forward to the diagnosis and fix!!

Maraudejack
...+1...

-------------------------------------

[Paul]

Thanks guys, I truly appreciate the advice and encouragement. I spoke with the dealer SA this afternoon - the estimate for replacing a single bad piston (assuming that's what it is) is $2,700.00 tax included. The piston/rod/bearing are sold as an assembly, so if it were one of the other components it would be the same price. If I purchased a long or short block elsewhere, the estimate for having the dealership perform the install is $1,800 for the long and $2,200 for the short (both are tax included).

Now I'm thinking of buying a 1/2 ton engine stand (foldable, $110) and 1 ton shop crane/hoist (also foldable, $160) from Harbor Freight and doing it myself. How hard can it be? a few wrenches, some oil and antifreeze and a few beers, right?

[ledzilla]

Now I'm thinking of buying a 1/2 ton engine stand (foldable, $110) and 1 ton shop crane/hoist (also foldable, $160) from Harbor Freight and doing it myself. How hard can it be? a few wrenches, some oil and antifreeze and a few beers, right?

Oh man, that's funny. Well, maybe not. I had the motor replaced in my old Town Car back in '00-'01. It ran a 5.0L with a distributor (pre-coil pack and pre-COP)... nothing nearly as sophisticated as the DOHC 4.6L we're using. I think the guy I had swap the blown 5.0L for a reman long block had the same thoughts. When he was done, the computer was fried, the starter was fried, the ground strap was messed up, and the heat-A/C didn't work anymore (but the vent doors and blower did... no blend door or compressor activation, though). It cost a big enough chunk of change to find out what got screwed up and have it fixed. Never did fix the A/C, though. Just rigged it so I would have heat (got the car up and running again in mid-February - with no heat at all). If you're considering doing it yourself, be very, very careful... of just don't do it yourself. That way if something big gets screwed up, you can blame someone other than yourself and have them fix it properly.

[GreekGod]

... The piston/rod/bearing are sold as an assembly, so if it were one of the other components it would be the same price....

Not true...the parts are sold individually. Pistons are sold by "grade" (size). Rods & bearings are sold individually.

re:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=214944

______________________________ ____________

[Paul]

Great site, thanks. I was just repeating what the SA told me. Perhaps his dealership does them in assemblies, not individually. I checked that site, could get a basic shortblock for $1,449 plus $500 core charge + shipping - but not forged internals. Their list for the DOHC shortblock, which I assume has forgings?, is $4,767. I would hope so, anyway, at that price.

[Paul]

So who sells an affordable forged shortblock?

[Raudermaster]

Didn't Zack have one?

[Raudermaster]

That does suck man, I know how pumped you were for your blower too! Mine will be on Friday night. Don't worry buddy, I'll double the abuse to my rear tires for you!

[Paul]

If you're considering doing it yourself, be very, very careful... or just don't do it yourself. That way if something big gets screwed up, you can blame someone other than yourself and have them fix it properly.



Well, it's fixed! Had the experts at Lamotta Performance in Longwood figure it out and fix it for me. They are great guys by the way, really know their stuff. :bows:They listened to the car on my first visit, revved it up and got a little tapping. Suggested I make an appointment to bring it in so they could run a compression-leak down test and spend some quality time with a stethoscope. Did that last Friday - good news, the car passed the compression test, so pistons are o.k. Bad news, still didn't know what was wrong, and my car would need exploratory surgery to remove the timing cover, as they suspected a bad timing chain tensioner. Left her there over the weekend, and their resident expert Billy came in on his day off Sunday to start opening her up.

Now the really good news - pistons/crank/bearings are o.k. The source of the sound was the timing wheel - a $33 piece of steel. It is sandwiched inside the timing cover and held in place by a properly torqued crankshaft bolt. If some shade-tree mechanic ****-up fails to properly torque this bolt down when R&R'ing a harmonic dampener/crankshaft pulley, the wheel will be loose, wear against the key and shaft, and begin making tapping noises while it messes with your timing. The total bill, with a day's diagnostic work on Friday and the R&R of this timing wheel, came to about $870.00 - 99% of that the labor hours necessary to get it done. This is a hell of a bargain compared to what I feared it was going to cost for a piston or bearing.

Now, you are probably wondering why I quoted Ledzilla's comment up above? Check my posting history - you'll find my concerns over a leaking front oil seal on the crankshaft, and my success story of having R&R'd the crankshaft pulley to refresh the silicone sealant on the woodruff key - thus stopping the tiny leak which was slinging oil on the face of my engine. Yup - the shade-tree mechanic was me - that oil leak I fixed all by my little self cost me $870 in the end.:shake:

BUT, now I can install my supercharger - all I need is the airpipes and I'll have what I need to do the deed. :D:D:D

[Raudermaster]

Glad to hear Paul! If you need some pointers when installing, just give me a holler.

[Paul]

Thanks Jarod, I will. It will be a while still, since not all of my kit has arrived yet.