COP output voltage?

[Blackmobile]

I did a little research on COP specs, and most don't give you the output voltage except Granatelli. They have 3 different level. Their OEM COP are rated at 25,000 volt, their Hot street COP are rated at 42,000 volts, and their pro series are rated at 60,000 volts. All the others tend to state that they are 10-15-20% performance improvement over stock.

My question is, what are the stock COP output voltage rated at?

[JACook]

Coil output voltage is one of the oldest, and most misleading, marketing ploys. Granatelli,
and others, want you to believe their coils are x times more powerful than factory.
Fact is, regardless of any inflated output ratings, the actual secondary voltage will not
change with an aftermarket coil. Secondary voltage is a function of how much voltage is
required to ionize the spark gap, and create a spark.

I have never seen one single test where the aftermarket coils were tested against -new-
factory coils, with no other changes. I believe there's a very good reason. It's also a very
old marketing ploy to replace the factory coil/wires/whatever and of course, while we're at
it, might as well put in a new set of plugs. As if the plugs are insignificant. The marketers
then proclaim their parts produced x times more power/better mileage/smoother running...
never again mentioning those new spark plugs, which were the real reason anything good
happened at all.

Unless there's something actually wrong with your factory COPs, put a fresh set of NGK
TR6s in there, and be done with it. Don't forget to use dielectric grease on the COP boots,
and a couple dabs of silicone where the COP harness comes into the rear of the cam covers.

And, if you've never changed plugs on a Ford modular before- Make sure the engine is stone
cold. Use a small dab of anti-seize on the threads, and a thin wipe on the taper seat. Then
use a torque wrench to tighten the plugs to 120-140 in/lbs (10-12 ft/lbs).

For why this is important, search the forum for 'timesert'...

[Blackmobile]

just looking for the specs of the stock COP.

[JACook]

just looking for the specs of the stock COP.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=irrelevant&ls=a :)

[Dennis Reinhart]

I tried looking it up, and could not find it. I am sure Jerry W would know, in my experince I have not seen a rwhp gain with the Grant coil upgrade, I had to issue a refund because one customer developed a engine miss withh them installed, I have see good gains with a MSD ignition systems but none are out yet for the 4V.

[Blackmobile]

Coil output voltage is one of the oldest, and most misleading, marketing ploys. Granatelli,
and others, want you to believe their coils are x times more powerful than factory.
Fact is, regardless of any inflated output ratings, the actual secondary voltage will not
change with an aftermarket coil. Secondary voltage is a function of how much voltage is
required to ionize the spark gap, and create a spark.

I have never seen one single test where the aftermarket coils were tested against -new-
factory coils, with no other changes. I believe there's a very good reason. It's also a very
old marketing ploy to replace the factory coil/wires/whatever and of course, while we're at
it, might as well put in a new set of plugs. As if the plugs are insignificant. The marketers
then proclaim their parts produced x times more power/better mileage/smoother running...
never again mentioning those new spark plugs, which were the real reason anything good
happened at all.

Unless there's something actually wrong with your factory COPs, put a fresh set of NGK
TR6s in there, and be done with it. Don't forget to use dielectric grease on the COP boots,
and a couple dabs of silicone where the COP harness comes into the rear of the cam covers.

And, if you've never changed plugs on a Ford modular before- Make sure the engine is stone
cold. Use a small dab of anti-seize on the threads, and a thin wipe on the taper seat. Then
use a torque wrench to tighten the plugs to 120-140 in/lbs (10-12 ft/lbs).

For why this is important, search the forum for 'timesert'...

As for the spark plug torque specs, spark plug installation helpful hints, and spark plug type, I have to agree whole heartedly, it all totally irrelevant. I've been doing this stuff for......I forgot, it's been that long. I posed a question, and if you don't have the answer then you can't help me. which makes this entire response.......Irrelevant. :lol:

[Blackmobile]

I tried looking it up, and could not find it. I am sure Jerry W would know, in my experince I have not seen a rwhp gain with the Grant coil upgrade, I had to issue a refund because one customer developed a engine miss withh them installed, I have see good gains with a MSD ignition systems but none are out yet for the 4V.

Thanks for the reminder Dennis. I was wondering if the developed miss could be attributed to the Grant coil connectors, which I've witnessed first hand, rather than the coils themselves. This was the reason, and your un-recommendation, why I was shying away from Grant coils.

[JMan]

Ed,
I have stressed Ford COP's on SOHC engines while using an oscilloscope on them. When they are in single fire mode, they put out well over thirty thousand volts! Below 1500 rpm they put out what Ford calls "Multi-strike". They fire three times at idle and up to about 1500 rpm. Each strike is lower in voltage than when they are in single fire mode. Those things get hot when "single striking"!

HTH

J

[racorcey]

Coil output voltage is one of the oldest, and most misleading, marketing ploys. Granatelli, and others, want you to believe their coils are x times more powerful than factory. Secondary voltage is a function of how much voltage is required to ionize the spark gap, and create a spark.

I agree wholeheartedly with Jeff on this one. There's an old expression that covers this phenomena: "It's not how long you make it; it's how you make it long."

In this particular case, strike voltage only needs to be at a certain minimum to start the combustion process. What really counts is the amount of energy contained in the spark. This is generally measured in Joules, but to make things more understandable, I'll just call it Watts, since I know pretty much everyone knows what watts are. Wattage is formed by multiplying Voltage times the Current. Therefor, the spark must contain enough current in it when the voltage breaks over into an arc in order to sustain the arc, and, especially in this case, a combustion process.

In the old days of points and condensers, some of you probably remember setting the "dwell" angle. This was a measurement of the amount of time that the coil had to build up energy (read: coil current) before being asked to arc over.

Now some may argue that a higher voltage is needed for certain hi-performance applications, such as NOX or blowers/turbochargers. And they are correct. During these times, a higher than normal voltage spark is required due to the potential of being "blown out" too easily before an arc can even occur. But it's still the current that carries it.

Nothing has changed, essentially, other than for transistors and computer control. The same basic design has been used to create a spark since Kettering came up with it in the early 1900's. The only other efficiency item that has been learned over the years is the COP system (coil over plug). Now the coil could be made smaller, since it handles (1/4 to 1/6 to 1/8; 4 cyl, 6 cyl, 8 cyl) of the energy required of one coil firing all 4, 6 or 8 plugs, AND dwell times can now be electronically controlled for maximal current during discharge.

The other major version is the CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) system. It still works the same basic way, but instead of 12 volts on the coil primary, it uses about 400 volts. A high-voltage inverter contstantly charges a special type capacitor, which is in series with the primary of the coil. A capacitor will hold a tremendous amount of energy (joules), and is more efficient in transferring that energy to and through the coil, at least compared to a stardard ignition system. The main advantage of the CDI is its intense energy discharge, it's multiple "strike" ability, and normally, it's reliability. It's one small disadvantage is the shorter spark discharge time, which some engine designs cannot handle.

Most of the newer type CDI's now interface to stock coils, and use a much lower voltage into the coil primary. Accel, MSD, Jacob, and several others use this setup, but usually offer special coils and controllers that are much better matched to each other using the higher voltage primary.

As a means of comparison, Ed Wright, a famous tuner of GM products (located in Tulsa), tested about 6 available aftermarket ignition systems on his dyno using the popular LT1 motor. The ONLY one that had any effect was the Accel 300+ ignition, to the tune of 20 more clean hp. And that was using the factory coil. Mind you, this was only for this version motor.

The bottom line is this: while I admit I have not personally tested any aftermarket coils on my MM, certain things still stand. There has been enough data on this forum over the last several years (as well as Crown Vic.net) to show that the factory coil is pretty damn good. All I have seen so far is anecdotal evidence here and on other Ford related forums, regarding the aftermarket versions. While the aftermarket companies making replacement coils may not exactly be lying about their product regarding higher output voltages, their claims as to higher hp gains always have to be questioned, since not a one of them posts specific data.

[Blackmobile]

I agree wholeheartedly with Jeff on this one. There's an old expression that covers this phenomena: "It's not how long you make it; it's how you make it long."

In this particular case, strike voltage only needs to be at a certain minimum to start the combustion process. What really counts is the amount of energy contained in the spark. This is generally measured in Joules, but to make things more understandable, I'll just call it Watts, since I know pretty much everyone knows what watts are. Wattage is formed by multiplying Voltage times the Current. Therefor, the spark must contain enough current in it when the voltage breaks over into an arc in order to sustain the arc, and, especially in this case, a combustion process.

In the old days of points and condensers, some of you probably remember setting the "dwell" angle. This was a measurement of the amount of time that the coil had to build up energy (read: coil current) before being asked to arc over.

Now some may argue that a higher voltage is needed for certain hi-performance applications, such as NOX or blowers/turbochargers. And they are correct. During these times, a higher than normal voltage spark is required due to the potential of being "blown out" too easily before an arc can even occur. But it's still the current that carries it.

Nothing has changed, essentially, other than for transistors and computer control. The same basic design has been used to create a spark since Kettering came up with it in the early 1900's. The only other efficiency item that has been learned over the years is the COP system (coil over plug). Now the coil could be made smaller, since it handles (1/4 to 1/6 to 1/8; 4 cyl, 6 cyl, 8 cyl) of the energy required of one coil firing all 4, 6 or 8 plugs, AND dwell times can now be electronically controlled for maximal current during discharge.

The other major version is the CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) system. It still works the same basic way, but instead of 12 volts on the coil primary, it uses about 400 volts. A high-voltage inverter contstantly charges a special type capacitor, which is in series with the primary of the coil. A capacitor will hold a tremendous amount of energy (joules), and is more efficient in transferring that energy to and through the coil, at least compared to a stardard ignition system. The main advantage of the CDI is its intense energy discharge, it's multiple "strike" ability, and normally, it's reliability. It's one small disadvantage is the shorter spark discharge time, which some engine designs cannot handle.

Most of the newer type CDI's now interface to stock coils, and use a much lower voltage into the coil primary. Accel, MSD, Jacob, and several others use this setup, but usually offer special coils and controllers that are much better matched to each other using the higher voltage primary.

As a means of comparison, Ed Wright, a famous tuner of GM products (located in Tulsa), tested about 6 available aftermarket ignition systems on his dyno using the popular LT1 motor. The ONLY one that had any effect was the Accel 300+ ignition, to the tune of 20 more clean hp. And that was using the factory coil. Mind you, this was only for this version motor.

The bottom line is this: while I admit I have not personally tested any aftermarket coils on my MM, certain things still stand. There has been enough data on this forum over the last several years (as well as Crown Vic.net) to show that the factory coil is pretty damn good. All I have seen so far is anecdotal evidence here and on other Ford related forums, regarding the aftermarket versions. While the aftermarket companies making replacement coils may not exactly be lying about their product regarding higher output voltages, their claims as to higher hp gains always have to be questioned, since not a one of them posts specific data.

I appreciate your response, and thank you for the time it took to put that all into print, but my question was, What is the secondary output of stock coils. I'm not looking for a comparison to stock, or any horse power gains, I am looking for the base voltage used to fire our plugs. I inquire about this information because of all the COP venders state a % performance gain over stock. without know what stock is, who the heck know what numbers they are talking about. In my application I have over 125,000 miles on my stock set and am having issues of oil leaking into the plug chamber to the tone of almost submerging the plug. A few boots are noticable worn by age and the heat generated by the engine. Before embarking on the purchase of a new set of coils, IF NEEDED, I'd like to know the base requirements used to fire this bad MM up. Yes I'm SCed, and the extra kick couldn't hurt and probably would help. I find it interesting that Grants OEM equivalent coils are the most inexpensive I've seen around compared to the other major vendors, but they do have 2 levels of product above these. With the mileage I have I refuse to just change 1 or 2 and hope the others aren't weak. But in the interim I've removed all the plugs and coils and cleaned with alcohol, and reinstalled. On initial startup, the MM runs smooth as glass, so I now turn my attention to the valve cover gasket replacement and will hold off on the coil replacement at this time.

So again, thanks for the info, it was well accepted especially since you didn't try labeling this topic as IRRELEVANT.

[racorcey]

I appreciate your response, and thank you for the time it took to put that all into print, but my question was, What is the secondary output of stock coils. I'm not looking for a comparison to stock, or any horse power gains, I am looking for the base voltage used to fire our plugs. I inquire about this information because of all the COP venders state a % performance gain over stock. without know what stock is, who the heck know what numbers they are talking about. In my application I have over 125,000 miles on my stock set and am having issues of oil leaking into the plug chamber to the tone of almost submerging the plug. A few boots are noticable worn by age and the heat generated by the engine. Before embarking on the purchase of a new set of coils, IF NEEDED, I'd like to know the base requirements used to fire this bad MM up. Yes I'm SCed, and the extra kick couldn't hurt and probably would help. I find it interesting that Grants OEM equivalent coils are the most inexpensive I've seen around compared to the other major vendors, but they do have 2 levels of product above these. With the mileage I have I refuse to just change 1 or 2 and hope the others aren't weak. But in the interim I've removed all the plugs and coils and cleaned with alcohol, and reinstalled. On initial startup, the MM runs smooth as glass, so I now turn my attention to the valve cover gasket replacement and will hold off on the coil replacement at this time.

So again, thanks for the info, it was well accepted especially since you didn't try labeling this topic as IRRELEVANT.

Hey, what do they say? Sarcasm will get you anywhere? Rightttt! I had to go back up this set of postings to find out what the "irrelevant" relevance was. Your pointed comment regarding this was well deserved. While I like funny sarcasm, I don't think that's what "irrelevants" author had in mind.

To try to answer your question, especially since I'm doing this from work ;), I do remember seeing a spec sheet for the dg508 coil from Motorcraft. I couldn't find it just now unfortunately. I remember seeing something in the 25-35Kvolt range. That's pretty typical for stock, electronicially controlled ignition coils for the last 30+ years. Most of the aftermarket coils are advertised (usually) at 30-40Kvolt, with the occasional 45-50Kvolt super-coil making the scene. At these elevated voltages, all parts in touch with it are severely stressed, and very little is gained.

It's easy for the after-market vendors to state a % over stock - try finding the info to verify!

I understand your need to compare - it makes you a better shopper. But I still personally believe that there is essentially no performance differences between stock and after-market coils.

As far as the oil around the plugs goes....get that fixed. I have even seen the problem in my MM, which has about 48k miles on it, and I've changed the plugs about 3 times. Now your oil problem seems to be much more severe than mine, and it certainly can affect your plug firing ability. In reality, a higher starting coil voltage will have a tendency to break through oil problems like this - but if your coils are otherwise OK, you really need to take care of the root cause - the oil seepage problem, not paste over it with some supposedly higher voltage coils. This will only delay the inevitable, albeit more expensively.

- Randy

[magindat]

Thanks for the reminder Dennis. I was wondering if the developed miss could be attributed to the Grant coil connectors, which I've witnessed first hand, rather than the coils themselves. This was the reason, and your un-recommendation, why I was shying away from Grant coils.

You saw mine start missin on the Granatelli's, remember? Put some stock springs back in or get that set from Sherco.

[Marauderjack]

You saw mine start missin on the Granatelli's, remember? Put some stock springs back in or get that set from Sherco.

Granatelli connectors only or the coils too??:confused:

[magindat]

Granatelli connectors only or the coils too??:confused:

Connectors....

[JACook]

I understand your need to compare - it makes you a better shopper. But I still personally believe that there is essentially no performance differences between stock and after-market coils.

Or, to put it another way... :rolleyes: