Methanol / Acohol revisited

[im4darush]

So I did a search and found only a few threads where folks had plans to apply methanol injection theory, but have not seen any real world results posted. I have owned a few turbo buicks, and have been using methanol injection on every single one with incredible results. I now have a MM with a vortech air-air blower and dont see any reason at all why it cant be used in this application.

I post today because I have some specific questions to which I hope someone will have some answers. And if not answers, then ideas and/or thoughts. My car currently has a 3.48 pulley and should make 10-12 lbs of boost at max. So my question has to do with the tune of the car. I plan on having it tuned very soon and am wondering how much more aggresive the tune can be considering I plan on spraying it with meth in the future. Also, do you think it is an absolute must to have the meth injection operational for the tune session? Since I will not be raising my boost level past where it is now, I will only be using the meth to cool the intake charge, and control detonation. Basically allowing me to run a more aggresive tune on 93 octane without pinging the thing to death. I am therefore wondering if it needs to be on there for the dyno tune, or can be added after the tune.

If anyone has some real world experience with this stuff, please share. Every application is different and I obviously dont want to apply turbo buick theory to a marauder. The more info I can gather from folks that have actually used the stuff in their MM, the better. Thanks much!!

[Vortech347]

I've made several posts about my use with it.

I've ran it for 3 years on my Vortech'd mustang. My father has also ran it for 2 years on his Vortech'd Roush.

Dynoing without the meth my car did 500rwhp. WITH the meth and my BTM turned off (so full timing) with no boost changes. Netted me 571rwhp. Not to shabby.

My fathers car without the meth did 365rwhp. With a very small 6 gal/hour jet and more timing went to 405rwhp.

Its wonderful stuff. My recommendation is when you have the car tuned have a tune for with and without the meth.

[FordNut]

Under boost, the Marauder won't ping. It will put a rod through the block. I destroyed 2 stock engines, so take it for what it's worth.

[im4darush]

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that response. My situation is not boost related. It will remain at 12lbs max. My question had to do with the tune of the car under this boost level, and the benefits that could be had from injecting methanol.

[FordNut]

The internals of these engines will not tolerate detonation under boost. You mentioned pinging to death in your previous post. It's more likely to be a sudden death than pinging to death.

I was running less than 12 lb boost and destroyed 2 engines. The only way to get the performance improvements obtained with meth is to push a lot of timing. It's not a matter of if, it's when it's gonna blow. Now if you want to just add meth for cooling the IAT's that's safe enough but over 90% of the people who add meth without adding an aggressive tune actually make LESS power than they did without the meth.

[im4darush]

Ok, so what you are saying is that meth is only benefitial with aggresive timing curves, and does not control detonation enough to be used safely?

I would like to use it not only for intake charge cooling, but also as an octane booster so I can run the more aggresive timing curves. Pinging to death or having an instant death is all the same really....end result is a blown motor that nobody wants. Question is wheather the meth can prevent both scenarios. Thanks again!!

[Vortech347]

Fordnuts right on the money...

If you plan on meth with no extra timing you should run a VERY and I mean VERY small amount, just as an "insurance" policy against detonation.

Looking for max power then add meth and increase the timing but be aware of 2 things. #1, if you make more power than the pencil sized rods can take they WILL go boom. #2. If the car is tuned to run on meth and you run out or have some sort of issue with the system and go wide open...BOOM..

Its great stuff but you've gota keep your eye on things.

[im4darush]

One more thing.....You mention that the engines will not tolerate detonation under boost. I agree with you 100%. Same concept with turbo buicks as well as any other blown application. In my experience, the meth has done a great job in preventing the detonation. With that out of the equation, 12lbs of boost with an aggresive tune should be safe. If I am still missing something, please let me know.

[CKMustangCobra]

People confuse detonation with pre-ignition all the time.

A cooler charge (via any route) will not stop the sparkplugs from firing too early.

[im4darush]

Oh yes, I realize all that. I know there is not much benefit to it unless your tune takes full advantage, and that bad things will happen if you run out of it at WOT. The idea here is how much gain could be had before the stock rods give way!

[TAKEDOWN]

You guys are crazzzy. That's rocket ship talk!

[Embassy]

The idea here is how much gain could be had before the stock rods give way!

I've read on here several times that around 500RWHP is the breaking point for stock MM blocks.

[FordNut]

Between 450 and 500. I lost one @ 475 and another @ 500.

[FordNut]

12lbs of boost with an aggresive tune should be safe. If I am still missing something, please let me know.

Nope. With a stock bottom end it had better be a conservative tune.

We have hypereutectic pistons. They are strong, but when they experience detonation under boost (from too aggressive tunes) the top ring land will break off. We also have powdered metal rods. They're strong, but when they reach their limit (from too aggressive tunes OR from too much power) they don't bend or stretch, they break into a million pieces usually putting a window in the side of the block.

[Vortech347]

The other thing I love. "Damn its running rich, pull out some fuel" of a Meth'd car. Instead of installing the correct sized meth jet for the application.

[im4darush]

Ok, so what would be a good comprimise? I was really shooting for around 450hp, and wanted to use the meth to get me there safely.

[Vortech347]

Tune the car for that HP level. Add a little bit of meth for insurance/hot day/bad fuel, ect...

[red]

Tune the car for that HP level. Add a little bit of meth for insurance/hot day/bad fuel, ect...
Right. I would not treat the meth as anything more than insurance. If you tune for it and run dry or tune too aggressively and happen to hit a hot day or bad fuel, your motor's a goner. This is especially the case for a stock motor that's reaching its limit on boost/power, as FordNut mentioned.

[MM_BKK]

People confuse detonation with pre-ignition all the time.

A cooler charge (via any route) will not stop the sparkplugs from firing too early.

Perhaps you could educate us on detonation vs. pre-ignition?

Can you tell us exactly what's going on for each scenerio?

[bob6364]

been running meth in a 2v 02 mustang for 2 years with a aggressive tune.the motor couldn't live without it ...I think some folks here repeat stuff they read to much....

[69marquis conv]

I'm no expert on meth or boost, but I do know that our senior members have been modding our Marauder engines since late 2002, and in my time here I'm come to appreciate their experience-- particularly when it could mean sacrificing a perfectly good engine due to the lack of ability to hear the wisdom of those who've been there before.

[Glenn]

I know of two forged engines built by top nationally know engine builders that blew with Meth that were never reported on either net. I would not use Meth to boost HP. If you are running on the ragged edge rod destruction is only a few boost # away especially with stock rods. There is no margin of error with Meth to boost HP.

When that GT-R pulls up to you and wants to play there is no thought of Meth or boost control or even what the octane of your last tank of gas may have been. You push the go petal and go for it. (Ask me I know - I may have already damaged my engine with no 93 octane available anywhere in Atlanta.)

Glenn :burnout:

[red]

been running meth in a 2v 02 mustang for 2 years with a aggressive tune.the motor couldn't live without it ...I think some folks here repeat stuff they read to much....
If the tune is aggressive and you run dry or have a faulty kit, then the impacts will be detrimental. As a safety, you can employ flow monitoring and external timing control. Is this done on your setup? Similarly, you can have issues if you're pushing the A/F and timing limits of the methanol and get a tank of bad gas or hit other extreme conditions.

[bob6364]

If the tune is aggressive and you run dry or have a faulty kit, then the impacts will be detrimental. As a safety, you can employ flow monitoring and external timing control. Is this done on your setup? Similarly, you can have issues if you're pushing the A/F and timing limits of the methanol and get a tank of bad gas or hit other extreme conditions.

Red ...you are right...as simple as I can put it if no tune for hp is a 1 and pushing the limits A/F and timing is 10 then i'm a 4-5 gives me alittle margin for area.I am also as micro managing as they come when it comes to my boosted, meth'd,2 stepped,dual disc'd,flip chipped stang...the meth tank is checked always it has a low level indicator ,the tank gets 93 always(yes I know gas stations octane levels are a average),I have driven this car at several tracks in New England launching at 4000 rpm and have driven the same car to chesapeake,Va from CTon 2 seperate occasions this summer.

My comment is directed at the black and white, this is how it is, because I say so people.The same people say the juice is no good and will destroy your engine.The fact is once you go above 400rwhp with 99-04 stock engines you are living on bored time.Some are stronger then others and some survive just fine living at 500 rwhp and some pop at 400.I see alot of folks here with 400+ in their sigs and stock bottom ends in their cars all these folks could get a surprise the next time they drop the hammer, also...not everyone has the 7K to spend on a trilogy.To tell someone with a grand left on his credit card that he's wrong to spend it on NOS or Meth and a tune is wrong im my book there are 1000's of engines out there living happily on both,just get yourself a tuner that that has the track wins to back his name up.

[im4darush]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess the right thing to do is tune for the desired 450hp level and use the meth as insurance since I am not looking to achieve higher numbers.

[CKMustangCobra]

Perhaps you could educate us on detonation vs. pre-ignition?

Can you tell us exactly what's going on for each scenerio?

There is a decent wiki write up on it... let me find it.

Basically pre-ignition comes from high cylinder temps and another ignition source. Either a un-finished head surface that has a burr that is starting to glow red hot, or part of a gasket.... causing the mixture to essentially diesel upon compression. The mixture ignites while the compression stroke isn't finished resulting in the same failures as detonation. Burnt fuel mixture pushing down on a piston/rod/crank that isn't finished traveling in the opposing direction.

Detonation is a form of abnormal combustion. Timing could be right on... but there is another factor that causes the mixture to burn in a weird way. As anyone could guess... inside a combustion chamber isn't a fairy land with sunflowers and dancing elves.... it is an extremly violent environment. Air and fuel getting squeezed, pushed all around, HEAT.... sometimes under the right conditions... the mixture will ignite via sparkplug, as it should and the fuel burn will create a flame front... which should bounce in the chamber in such a way to equally expand... pushing the piston down... creating rotational/mechanical power. Sometimes... this heat effects the mixture in funny ways... sometime spliting it up. The spark plug will ignite the mixture like normal, a flame front will be created.... along with ANOTHER in a different area in within the chamber. Now there are two flame fronts... hurdling towards eachother as they expand... on a collision course. These flame fronts colliding are causing a massive pinpoint of energy... more than likely going right on the top of a piston, creating a noticable pinging noise or a "knock". High temps are to blame most of the time. The charge is often tuned rich to bring the temps down to correct this problem... and sometimes the timing is retarded enough to allow the piston to start it's journey downwards eariler to avoid a hard hit (knock sensors). Any way to cool and control combustion chamber temps is a plus and will stop detonation or knock. Pre-ignition is a totally seperate issue and should not be confused and hopefully diagnosed properly. Pulling all the timing out of an engine will not correct this issue.

[merc]

If you are racing at the track why not use 104 octane gas. The cost of a snow kit including professional installation is between 500-750 dollars on the conservative side. The Meth cooling benefits are minimal when measured from the IAT2. If you plan on racing your car twice a month during racing season that equals to 12 events and 48 passes, this figure could be higher for Test-n-Tune. What is the point of extreme power anyway. Marauders are bracket cars. Invest your meth money into a good set of wheels and tires and learn how to win. If you can't win with a 13 second marauder what makes you think a 11 second marauder makes you more competitive. Truthfully, I have had a tragic year in drag racing. My second run in April cost me a new transmission rebuild. Tuning issues plagued me most of the summer. I got beat in the second round in Hagerstown during the Ford Classic. My last major (1320x) in September I couldn't find my dail-in and had to buy back in the first round. Hopefully I can turn things around in October. The point of the conversation is to learn your car. Making the Marauder fast is easy, there are plenty of venders on this site who can assist you if you have the cash.

[red]

My comment is directed at the black and white, this is how it is, because I say so people.
Understood. One size does not fit all and tolerances may or may not allow for more gains, depending. Carry on... ;)