MM level of performance

[im4darush]

I am currently looking at purchasing an 03 marauder and have a few things I would like to ask those who know more about this car than I do. In stock form, I am hearing that 1/4 mile times are in the 15.4 range and the low end torque of this car leaves more to be desired. I have looked through other posts and have seen mention of chips, gears and other mods that some of you guys are doing and am wondering what performance level you are seeing with just the basics. Gears, Chips, exhaust etc...
Some cars respond very well to mods like this, some cars dont. I dont know much about this car at all so would prefer to ask you guys. I own a 03 cobra right now and am aware that I will be nowhere close to that level of performance with a MM. To me, an ok level of performace for a car like this would be mid 14 sec 1/4 miles. ~14.4 - 14.6. Will the basic mods mentioned cut 1 second off the stock times?? And at what expense?? Supercharging costs seem to be very high with this car.
Looks like a great car, I just dont know if I can go from 12.8 to 15.4. May shoot myself a month later. Thanks for your comments.

[MMM2003]

For a broken in (12k miles) stock MM the 1/4ET is more in the high 14's low 15's. In May'03 I run a 15.1 all stock. Others have consistently run high 14's all stock.
IMHO, the DR stage I will get you into the mid 14's. In May we had someone run the DR Stage I & II and he run consistently in the low 14's (SargeMac).

[capt512]

My odometer just rolled over to 1400 miles and I can tell you for a fact that at 1200 miles this engine took on a whole new life. It runs much faster than before and I'm running 14.8 to 14.9's completely stock.

Its true that thats not GT Times but this a whole lot more car than a Mustang. For a full size luxury/sport sedan thats humpin it pretty good.

I guess it depends on what your really lookin for.

If your wanting just fast et's than you may be kicking yourself but I'm betting that your looking for more room and comfort or you probably wouldn't be considering a Marauder.

You know as well as I that there are a lot of Mustangs on the road and even though there great looking and perform well there just not real unique. These Marauders capture a lot of attention from all ages and even though mine isn't new I'm constantly having people compliment me on its good looks and style. Most of them have no idea what it is. Its kinda neat.

As far as Mods. You should easily be able to get to low,low 14's with them and possible high 13's if you really apply the goodies.

IMHO if your looking for comfort, style, and performance in a car that will seat more than two comfortably while pinning their heads to the back of the seat from 30 mph than this is your car.
Good luck on your decision.
Mike

[cyclone03]

I've said it before,Back in 85 I bought a new Mustang LX 5.0 and it ran the same as my MM in the 1/4. 15.30's.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by im4darush
the low end torque of this car leaves more to be desired. You're right, the low end isn't as good as a big pushrod motor, but once it gets wound up... YEE-Haa...
Gears, Chips, exhaust etc... Some cars respond very well to mods like this
As this one does...with a chip or re-flashed ECM, cooler plugs, a cooler t-stat, and underdrive pulleys, it's like a different car...I don't have the 4.10s, but they are supposed to be a big boost all by themselves...
I own a 03 cobra right now and am aware that I will be nowhere close to that level of performance with a MM. I just don't know if I can go from 12.8 to 15.4. If you want nothing but balls-to-the-wall performance, don't buy this car...the Cobra is a better choice...BUT...if you want a big, family-safe sedan that doesn't KNOW it's big, and that gives a damn good level of performance with excellent handling and a nice ride, and will turn heads WAY more than a common Cobra, then this is your car...

[im4darush]

Thanks guys. Me looking at this car is due to it having more room and comfort. I have a 2 month old now and it seems like it would be a better choice. 15.30's back in 85 is one thing, my cobra does 12.80's now in stock form and im sure the impala SS will run easy 14's. So I just wanted to get the opinions of those that own and modify the car, so I know what it is capable of. For me, mid 14's in this car would be very acceptable. What is the going rate for gears, chip, plugs and all that other stuff you mentioned?

[sailsmen]

For me it was less then $1,300 for chip, plugs, 4:10, thermostat and UD pulleys with a $65 per hour labor rate.

[MMM2003]

Impala SS only goes mid 14's if it is modified. Stock goes mid 15's I was told at our meet in May. This came from a bunch SS guys. Anyone feel free to correct me.

[Marauderman]

Well, all replies have been correct in there own way..but to answer your q's"

All your initial in put is pretty correct----the car needs the basic upgrade , here often called on this board as "Stage I" to bring her up to performing respectiable --anywhere--and that consist normally of
1. A performance chip -see sponsor vendors..but most have Dennis's
2. Cooler plugs and thermostat-also from Dennis.
3. 4:10 gears minimum but no more than 4:30's- again from alot of others but alot got them also from Dennis--
4. here is where it becomes owners choice for the next--some have put shorty headers/w-x-pipe and EGR and others lower springs with underpullies..

This --is pretty much called "Stage I"..which will give you the ability to go probably 335-340 fly/ 276-279 RW and enjoy still all the comfort of slow town--but down mess with me either --

It's what is required first before anything( besides Tint- as far as I'm concern--

Now you've heard my side of it anyway---you can always add more or less at anytime as well..depends on your preference..

My .02 worth..hope this has been helpful...Tom

Oh yeah --the stage one $$ varies from regions and install cost but shouldn't be more than $1k complete --maybe lower...

and most here agreed who have done it --including me--the best $$ spend for the results.. Tom..

[Mike M]

I just went 14.21 last week.

[joflewbyu2]

i had a 2000 pontiac grand prix gtp w/ the supercharger. stock they run low 15s all day. after 3.4" pulley, 3" downpipe and cat back they pick up approx. 40 hp - most from the pulley change. with these mods they get down in the mid to low 14s. superstrong low end with good midrange that tapers off to not much of a top end above 5,000 rpm. the MM is completely different feeling. ok bottom end, a building midrange surge that starts to pull hard at 4250 rpm to a wow at 5,000 rpms. 1/4 mile times similar with chip and gears. i enjoyed the gtp, but the MM is more car - full frame, v8, cornering lamps, keypad entry, rear wheel drive etc......

[2003 MIB]

I love my 4.10s. I'd like to make a couple of passes in Ennis (4K on car now- 3K on DR Stage 1). I'll post results but would be thrilled with 14.7's.

[Fin Harder 92]

im4 - You're comparing apples to oranges, but you already knew that. I just sold a highly modified '87 Buick GN. Really sweet hardtop car with big $ paint job. The car pulled like a freight train from anywhere you wanted it to.

I gave up some things when I owned it. It was a garage queen. I wouldn't take it anywhere and leave it where I couldn't see it even though I disconnected the ECM when ever it sat. The car saw rain twice. It had a 3500+ stall non lockup converter and I had taken the AC off the car. Did I love the car? Hell, I still do. Maybe one day I'll get another one.

I had a work car and a 10 sec. GN. I realized that I'd like to have a nice car that I could drive everyday that wasn't boring. I now have a Marauder and I have no regrets. No, the Marauder doesn't pull like the Buick, it never will. I've had that and enjoyed it, life goes on.

I'll be honest with you, I not a big Mustang fan. They have a great history and I know plenty of quick ones around. I guess it has more to do with alot of the kids that own them then the platform itself.

You sound like a guy who's reached a crossroads in your life and have realized you don't need to compromise a great deal to have a nice, fairly quick car that goes down the road well. Hell, you can have the first 11 sec MM. As you know, all it takes is money. Speed costs, how fast can you afford to go.

Own what serves your family's needs and your needs at the same time. You can with the MM.

Good Luck

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by MMM2003
Impala SS only goes mid 14's if it is modified. Stock goes mid 15's I was told at our meet in May. This came from a bunch SS guys. Anyone feel free to correct me.

That's true. a number of the honest Impala SS guys have posted that her as well.

On one of the HorsePowerTV shows they dynoed a stock '96 Impala SS. It showed 210.7 RWHP, on a dynojet.

There seems to be a lot of "myth, mystery, and legend" about the stock '94-'96 Impala SSs

[im4darush]

All very good points gentlemen. Fin, you are 100% correct in your assesment. I have had my cobra for a year and have loved it the whole time. Never saw rain or cloudy weather. 5k miles since last sept. But now since my wife and I had our boy, I begin to wonder if its worth keeping. I have always loved big cars and the crown vic / town car platform has been a favorite of my entire family. My dad is now on his 3rd town car. Both prior to this one went over 300k miles on original drivetrains, and the current is close to 200k. So the marauder would fall right in line with me.
I just wanted to hear from the source that this car can be in the mid 14's with just those basic mods. That would suit me just fine. Again, thanks to all for your comments.

[Marauderman]

[i]Originally posted by Fin Harder 92

I'll be honest with you, I not a big Mustang fan. They have a great history and I know plenty of quick ones around. I guess it has more to do with alot of the kids that own them then the platform itself.

You sound like a guy who's reached a crossroads in your life and have realized you don't need to compromise a great deal to have a nice, fairly quick car that goes down the road well. Hell, you can have the first 11 sec MM. As you know, all it takes is money. Speed costs, how fast can you afford to go.

Own what serves your family's needs and your needs at the same time. You can with the MM.

Good Luck [/B]

John---Very well put....the MM is our next generation of fun with a "general" fit into whatever event we want to do for the day...Tom

[John F. Russo]

marauderman

What are "real wipers" in your car description?

____________
2003 Blue 300B (Canadian) (traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc
CD changer,clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats, hood light)
Born 12/10/02
10,000 miles
Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
Wheel locks (Ford)
Mileage: 18 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph
Tire minder valve stem caps (getting rid of them- unreliable)
Kenny Brown: 6th “signature series” conversion (450 hp) 3/28/03
Dead pedal
Baer front brakes 14 in. two piston, vented rotors
MMX Driveshaft
4.10 gears
Vortech supercharger (7 to 8 psig boost)
Pirelli P-Zero Asymmetric
FordChip
One coil of each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring

[John F. Russo]

im4darush and RF Overlord

I have a Kenny rown conversion that does the 1/4 in 13.1 sec. @108 mph.

What do I have to do to my car beat a stock Cobra that I believe runs a supercharged 390 hp?

____________
2003 Blue 300B (Canadian) (traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc
CD changer,clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats, hood light)
Born 12/10/02
10,000 miles
Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
Wheel locks (Ford)
Mileage: 18 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph
Tire minder valve stem caps (getting rid of them- unreliable)
Kenny Brown: 6th “signature series” conversion (450 hp) 3/28/03
Dead pedal
Baer front brakes 14 in. two piston, vented rotors
MMX Driveshaft
4.10 gears
Vortech supercharger (7 to 8 psig boost)
Pirelli P-Zero Asymmetric
FordChip
One coil of each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring

[John F. Russo]

Fin Harder 92

What kind of tires and modes did you run on your Grand Nationnal to get in the 10's?

You said that you drove it to work everyday, what was your mileage?

____________
2003 Blue 300B (Canadian) (traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc
CD changer,clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats, hood light)
Born 12/10/02
10,000 miles
Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
Wheel locks (Ford)
Mileage: 18 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph
Tire minder valve stem caps (getting rid of them- unreliable)
Kenny Brown: 6th “signature series” conversion (450 hp) 3/28/03
Dead pedal
Baer front brakes 14 in. two piston, vented rotors
MMX Driveshaft
4.10 gears
Vortech supercharger (7 to 8 psig boost)
Pirelli P-Zero Asymmetric
FordChip
One coil of each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring

[im4darush]

John, my cobra dyno numbers were.....371hp & 368tq at the wheels. This was on a dynojet with a k&n filter and flowmaster catback. I believe that is alot more than the advertised 390 flywheel hp. Couple friends are running smaller pullies, exhaust and ecm reburn with numbers close to 450 at the wheels, and high 11 to low 12 1/4 miles. All for under $1500 in mods.
The one thing that is scaring me about the MM is the crazy amount of cash that is required to mod it. I think I heard someone say a vortech blower kit is over 7k????? DAMN!!!!....Thats alot of money. How is this blower different than the ones used on the rest of the OHC 4.6 motors used in 96-02 cobras? I believe those kits are 2 or 3 grand.

[John F. Russo]

im4darush

Thanks for the info.

Your mods are cheap. The conversion that I listed cost me $20k. So I'm willing to spend more, but on what?

I'm considering a Lidio (Trilogy Sports) stroking to 5.0 liter. increase the boost to a safe (is this possible to say) about 12 psig, and a another set of more aggressive tires than the ones I have. I'm not sure that the cost to get headers is worth it.

What do you think?

[sailsmen]

I am not an expert on the V kit for the 5.0L, but I know the mod motors have hypertetic pistons. The mod motors should have a large after cooler.

The vortec mustang kits for the 4v run $6,500. The 2v run $3,500 to $5,000.

With 5 SC kits for the Marauder the price may drop. Also with only 7k+ Marauders vs several 100,000 Mustangs the price will be higher.

For less than $1,500 in installed mods you can run in the low 14's.

The Marauder S/C kits are running $5,500 to $7,950.

[im4darush]

You know what John....I think that you you were to drop in a crate motor from a cobra, you would have alot more options. You now have a selection of pullies you can use along with the ecm program for each of them in order to have the right tune. Long tubes are then a worthy investment. This will get you close to 450 hp at the wheels. Even more with the right tune. Want more?? Kenne Belle has a blower for these motors...600hp at the wheels. This is of course if you are willing to spend the money. A nice thing would be to find a totaled cobra in a junk yard and yank the motor and computer. I believe they are 10k new from ford. I think that there comes a point where you reach a limit on the things you can do to your car and still gain substantialy. I think you may have reached that point. Tearing into the motor and stroking it would probably cost an arm and a leg and provide results that you cant really build on. I think if you really want serious performance (450 wheel hp and higher), have a dependable motor that will last and still have lots of room to improve, you need to find a complete motor from a cobra. Or how about what they use in the harley davidson F150?? That thing moves as well!! The MM seems like a great car!! However, I dont think 600 wheel hp from that DOHC is possible. The one used in the cobras is very different. Forged internals, lower compression to allow for high boost and different heads. I'm no expert, but thats what I think. I have also spent more than a year on the svtperformance forums so all the info I have listed here is 100% accurate.

[Marauderman]

Well -the cobra won't fit in the MM-- end of that issue--next is --if you want more than 400 t0 430 RWHP--is becomes dangerous in this type car-however--Dennis will make whatever you want--it's only money after all--but he and others will tell you =-=if you go over 430 at the rear-you need special handling instructions..just ask Sarge....--the MM can give you all the pleasure at about any stage you want or are familiar with--but there is always a limit with any car -- and if you check the threads here and the others here on our board on this car-- even though a few have 450 at the rear--they will tyell you --cause of the car--if you don't know the car--forget it---check and you will see...and welcome to our site-- like your thoughts and q's... Tom

[im4darush]

Tom, I was not aware that the cobra motor does not fit in the MM. thats a shame. And I thought it was a simple swap. Oh well. Makes sense that with that kind of power, other things will need upgrading.
I see that you have all the stage 1 upgrades on your car, would you be able to comment on what type of difference that made from stock? Not only in 1/4 performance but also in terms of drivability. I have read that going to a 4.10 gear will not do anything unless you get a chip to take advantage of this. Is this due to the shift points? I would think the gear change alone would do it.
What is the theory behind the Denso plugs? Are they in a different heat range than the stock? If so, is this needed because the chip changes the A/F ratio? And is that all the chip reburn does to make more power?
Sorry I have so many questions. Im just trying to understand how all these things work together and what each does individualy. thanks.

[Fin Harder 92]

John Russo - I didn't drive the GN every day. As I stated in my original post that it was a garage queen and that was part of the problem. I had a Chevy for a work car.

As for mods, Turbo Buick's are very responsive to modifications because of the factory power adder (turbo) and the fact that the 3.8L Buick motor is strong (109 block). The weak points on the car are the transmision (200R4) and the factory fuel pump.

My old car had a TE-63 turbo, DeQuick front mount intercooler, GN1 Aluminum heads, 214 roller cam, 3in down pipe w/ external wastegate, built transmission w/ 3500+ stall TC and all the supporting fuel and suspension upgrades necessary to support the combination. I ran Nitto DR's on the street, good tires. The car got pretty good mileage when you kept your foot out of it(about 18mpg).

The combination is the most important part of making true power. The combo listed above is fairly common among the Buick crowd. Those guys have had years of trial and error and you won't find a more informed crowd, really nice guys too. They are definitely not afraid to spend $ on their cars. There are TRUE 9sec street Buicks(full weight w/ AC) out there. Beware of grandma's 80's Buick with a hood bulge.

Alot of cars seem fast because of the deep first gear or window rattling exhaust. My father has had several "Muscle cars" but one ride in the GN and he was astounded. When you get in a big shaft turbo Buick that is tuned right it is a religous experience. I will always love those cars. They can be finicky and a failing $3 part or inproper tune/combo can make them run like poop on a stick. Also, I've yet to see one without an oil leak. Usually from the rear main. It's that whole engine under boost thing.

As I said before, my MM will never reach the performance level of of the GN but that's not what I'm looking for. Driving the car today I'm really happy with so many things about the it and once the shift points are where I want them I will be sassified.

Take Care

[GodOSpeed]

The stage 1 mods from Dennis really make this car like it should have been from the factory... But this car isn't and never will be a Cobra. Even supercharged it has a hard time keeping up with the similar motored Mach 1(13.2 @ 106). Granted car seats are a pain in the you know what; but you are sitting at the pinacle of Ford performance right now and any other Ford would be a definite step down.
Just my .02

[JLHARVEY1]

Originally posted by marauderman
Well -the cobra won't fit in the MM-- end of that issue-- Tom

Actually it does fit. "Muscle Mustang's and Fast Ford's" featured a Marauder that had this mod done. I'm sure the cost of it was astronomical though. Probably better off going with the Trilogy blower.