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View Full Version : Proposed Rules for 12 sec NA



Paul T. Casey
01-16-2009, 10:44 AM
Just a few ideas. Trash or change them as you see fit.

1) To qualify, one must have a valid time slip from a real track.
2) All safety and technical rules of said track apply.
3) Car must be "streetable." For the purpose of this "Race to NA 12's," streetable shall consist of the following:
a) Valid registration from the garaged state.
b) Windshield wipers.
c) Federally mandated safety equipment.
d) Car must be driven to and through staging lanes.
Tow vehicles or pushing to start not allowed.
4) Car shall weigh 4000 lbs with driver.
5) Owner honesty is at a premium. Power Adders such as, but not limited to, Nitrous injection are forbidden. (We all know how to hid a 125 shot).
6) Engine:
a) Engine shall be limited to 4.6L displacement.
b) Minor cylinder cleanup and minor crankshaft cleanup
to ensure balance and compression are allowed. This
in no way is to permit bored and or stroked engine
combinations to qualify.
c) Camshafts, valvetrains, intake, exhaust, porting,
polishing, or any other modifications not affecting
actual engine displacement are permitted.
d) Any transmission modification is legal
e) Any rear end or gear modification is legal.
f) Any tuning modification is legal.
g) Any weight reduction not affecting rules 2,3,4 is
legal.

That's about what I can come up with. Seems fairly simple, yet keeps cheaters somewhat at bay. Add or delete anything you want. Bottom line is this will be basically self policing.

sd8683
01-16-2009, 10:48 AM
Paul.... I think you hit the nail on the head with everything!!
Hopefully you'll be there when I make a run for it:beer:

TiTo35
01-16-2009, 10:55 AM
Good way to lay down the law!! :up:

Vortech347
01-16-2009, 11:07 AM
It needs to read. FACTORY 4.6 hypercraptastic pistons/rods/crank/block. Otherwise you could just rebuild the 4.6' with higher comp pistons.

I dunno about a minimum weight though. Just ditching the 2 front seats and putting in some ligher yet perfectly streetable racing seats would ditch 150lbs. Plus finding a scale is sometimes hard. Finding an ACCURATE scale is even harder.

Blackened300a
01-16-2009, 11:14 AM
c) Camshafts, valvetrains, intake, exhaust, porting,
polishing, or any other modifications not affecting
actual engine displacement are permitted.

You are making this easier. I have no such mods as far as porting and polishing. Only my upper intake lid is polished but only externally.

Honesty is a plus and when I make this run for the 12's, all my runs will be on video with time slip.

Game on.:burnout:

Blackened300a
01-16-2009, 11:19 AM
Just a few ideas. Trash or change them as you see fit.

1) To qualify, one must have a valid time slip from a real track. E-town is a NHRA track so check
2) All safety and technical rules of said track apply. Check
3) Car must be "streetable." For the purpose of this "Race to NA 12's," streetable shall consist of the following:
a) Valid registration from the garaged state. Check
b) Windshield wipers. Check
c) Federally mandated safety equipment. Check
d) Car must be driven to and through staging lanes.Check
Tow vehicles or pushing to start not allowed. Check
4) Car shall weigh 4000 lbs with driver. Check
5) Owner honesty is at a premium. Power Adders such as, but not limited to, Nitrous injection are forbidden. (We all know how to hid a 125 shot). Check N/A all the way.
6) Engine:
a) Engine shall be limited to 4.6L displacement. Check
b) Minor cylinder cleanup and minor crankshaft cleanup
to ensure balance and compression are allowed. This
in no way is to permit bored and or stroked engine
combinations to qualify. Check
c) Camshafts, valvetrains, intake, exhaust, porting,
polishing, or any other modifications not affecting
actual engine displacement are permitted. Check but not needed.
d) Any transmission modification is legal Check
e) Any rear end or gear modification is legal. Check
f) Any tuning modification is legal. Check
g) Any weight reduction not affecting rules 2,3,4 is
legal. Check

That's about what I can come up with. Seems fairly simple, yet keeps cheaters somewhat at bay. Add or delete anything you want. Bottom line is this will be basically self policing.

All bases covered here.

Pat
01-16-2009, 11:35 AM
So, things like underdrive pulleys, air induction, higher stall torque converters, widened wheels, slicks or drag radials, smaller front wheels/tires, and headers/exhaust pipes /cats modifications are OK? Shocks, springs, aerodynamic enhancements, outside mirrors are also item that can be changed. Also spark enhancement devices would be OK.

Rule is that car must weigh 4000 lbs, including driver. Doesn't limit how it's to be distributed. ET vs weight is an artform, look at the older stock cars. One can take off 400 lbs from our car and meet the requirement.

If one were to do all the things allowed it seems like 12's would be achievable, albeit expensive.

I seem to remember back in the 60's and 70's hot rodder's doing similar things to heavy cars, even station wagons and running
fantastic times. They called the thing super stock?

Bluerauder, you remember. Where are all my old Hot Rod magazines now?

Those big steel behemoths were in the mid 13's.

sd8683
01-16-2009, 11:37 AM
So, things like underdrive pulleys, air induction, widened wheels, slicks or drag radials, smaller front wheels/tires, and headers/exhaust pipes /cats changes are OK?

I sure hope so!!

Pops
01-16-2009, 11:40 AM
So, things like underdrive pulleys, air induction, higher stall torque converters, widened wheels, slicks or drag radials, smaller front wheels/tires, and headers/exhaust pipes /cats modifications are OK?

If one were to do all the things allowed it doesn't seem like 12's are a stretch.

Pat it is a very big stretch! The guys who are at sea level have the best chance in my opinion!;)

Pat
01-16-2009, 12:00 PM
Paul;

Since this is your baby, incorporate all the proposed changes into your list. Assuming they are approved by competent authority, you.

Joe Walsh
01-16-2009, 12:19 PM
It needs to read. FACTORY 4.6 hypercraptastic pistons/rods/crank/block. Otherwise you could just rebuild the 4.6' with higher comp pistons.

Yes, This ^^^ was left out of the original list.

I dunno about a minimum weight though. Just ditching the 2 front seats and putting in some ligher yet perfectly streetable racing seats would ditch 150lbs. Plus finding a scale is sometimes hard. Finding an ACCURATE scale is even harder.


I think that you need to be more specific than a minimum weight.
A fiberglass hood doesn't get you much weight reduction, but pulling seats, swapping in race seats, skinny front tires and pulling out the spare tire
starts down the road to "What's streetable?"
I always drive with my spare tire in the trunk and all my OEM seats.

Blackened300a
01-16-2009, 12:20 PM
1) Car must be street legal, wipers and all factory safety equiptment in tact.
2) Engine accessories intact, A/C, power steering, etc...
3) Stock displacement engine
4) Stock internals, cam, heads, intake, crank,etc...
5) Full interior
6) No forced induction, no nitrious. N/A only.
7) Car must weigh no less then 4000lb's
8) Run must be made at a track with timeslip to prove (No G-tech)
9) Any size DOT Street legal tires only. Drag radials are acceptable because they are for street use also.
10) Race and pump gas acceptable.
11) All transmission mods and tunes acceptable.
12) Any engine tune acceptable.
13) All N/A bolt-ons are acceptable.
14) Car can be altered to allow more air flow, like removal of headlight, and hood scoop, but front bumper must remain on car.
15) Any rear gear size is acceptable.
16) Car must be driven to the track and through the staging lanes. Car can be towed home in case of failure after run.

Anything else I missed?

Joe Walsh
01-16-2009, 12:22 PM
1) Car must be street legal, wipers and all factory safety equiptment in tact.
2) Engine accessories intact, A/C, power steering, etc...
3) Stock displacement engine
4) Stock internals, cam, heads, intake, crank,etc...
5) Full interior
6) No forced induction, no nitrious. N/A only.
7) Car must weigh no less then 4000lb's
8) Run must be made at a track with timeslip to prove (No G-tech)
9) Any size DOT Street legal tires only. Drag radials are acceptable because they are for street use also.
10) Race and pump gas acceptable.
11) All transmission mods and tunes acceptable.
12) Any engine tune acceptable.
13) All N/A bolt-ons are acceptable.
14) Car can be altered to allow more air flow, like removal of headlight, and hood scoop, but front bumper must remain on car.
15) Any rear gear size is acceptable.
16) Car must be driven to the track and through the staging lanes. Car can be towed home in case of failure after run.

Anything else I missed?

Looks good...

Remember, Barry got pretty darn close without touching the engine's internals.

Blackened300a
01-16-2009, 12:26 PM
Looks good...

Remember, Barry got pretty darn close without touching the engine's internals.

Thats my motovation for taking on this challange.

DOOM
01-16-2009, 12:26 PM
why does full interior matter? A car is still "streetable" with only 1 seat.

Blackened300a
01-16-2009, 12:28 PM
why does full interior matter? A car is still "streetable" with only 1 seat.

True but its not the point of this experiment.

DOOM
01-16-2009, 12:30 PM
Run what ya brung! As long as it's no blower or bottle and a 4.6 that's all that should matter. Good luck gents. :up:

RR|Suki
01-16-2009, 01:38 PM
Finding an ACCURATE scale is even harder.

I dunno how it is out there but out here an accurate scale is not that fard to come by. Truck stops, weigh stations, drag strips. All have good scales.

offroadkarter
01-16-2009, 01:55 PM
when I make this run for the 12's, all my runs will be on video with time slip.

Game on.:burnout:


And i might have to be the one to take that video :D

PS: nix the minimum weight. Your car can be light and still streetable..

How bout, no gutting of the interior?

O's Fan Rich
01-16-2009, 01:58 PM
why does full interior matter? A car is still "streetable" with only 1 seat.

Go ahead, drive your's like that for awhile......

Besides, the blown car's are doing it full interior, that's part of the challenge, doing 12's like the blown cars right?

ImpalaSlayer
01-16-2009, 02:03 PM
my car will have all seats all headlights in place spare in ( im not pushing the ****er home)

DOOM
01-16-2009, 02:13 PM
tracks will be open soon!!! :burnout:

Rocknthehawk
01-16-2009, 02:28 PM
I understand the point is to have a 12sec n/a 'rauder....

just curious....to be a "True" 12 sec car, wouldn't a second run need to be made to validate that the vehicle does in fact run that fast, and the planets didn't just align for that one run?

Master
01-16-2009, 02:48 PM
If you can change cams and such, then why not be able to put in higher compression pistons as well? Thought it was all about what we could get the 4.6 to do in our cars without power adders?

ImpalaSlayer
01-16-2009, 03:44 PM
If you can change cams and such, then why not be able to put in higher compression pistons as well? Thought it was all about what we could get the 4.6 to do in our cars without power adders?

i mean i guess you could. but talk about a huge waste of money

merc
01-16-2009, 04:32 PM
It needs to read. FACTORY 4.6 hypercraptastic pistons/rods/crank/block. Otherwise you could just rebuild the 4.6' with higher comp pistons.



Higher compression pistons?

RR|Suki
01-16-2009, 05:34 PM
i mean i guess you could. but talk about a huge waste of money

actually if you built a high comp. 4.6 you could gain quite a bit of hp.

Krytin
01-16-2009, 05:37 PM
So, things like underdrive pulleys, air induction, higher stall torque converters, widened wheels, slicks or drag radials, smaller front wheels/tires, and headers/exhaust pipes /cats modifications are OK? Shocks, springs, aerodynamic enhancements, outside mirrors are also item that can be changed. Also spark enhancement devices would be OK.

Rule is that car must weigh 4000 lbs, including driver. Doesn't limit how it's to be distributed. ET vs weight is an artform, look at the older stock cars. One can take off 400 lbs from our car and meet the requirement.

If one were to do all the things allowed it seems like 12's would be achievable, albeit expensive.

I seem to remember back in the 60's and 70's hot rodder's doing similar things to heavy cars, even station wagons and running
fantastic times. They called the thing super stock?

Bluerauder, you remember. Where are all my old Hot Rod magazines now?

Those big steel behemoths were in the mid 13's.

More than a few were in the mid 12's!

merc
01-16-2009, 05:46 PM
actually if you built a high comp. 4.6 you could gain quite a bit of hp.

I don't think you can run 11 to 1 compression with stock 50cc marauder heads and flat pistons.

RR|Suki
01-16-2009, 05:59 PM
I don't think you can run 11 to 1 compression with stock 50cc marauder heads and flat pistons.

I agree, you'd have to be a good distance outside of the stock "box". I was just saying high comp. is nice in it's own right.

Master
01-16-2009, 06:40 PM
Exactly. The point is, what can we do without supercharging or squirting? I see nothing wrong with an 11:1 compression engine if the pistons have proper valve cut-outs. Some of the little Hondas we work with are running between 12-14:1 compression. A 1.8L all engine putting 230hp to the ground is not bad. Surely if it is worth it to them, its worth it to us.

FordNut
01-16-2009, 07:53 PM
Sounds to me like the new guys have deep pockets. High compression pistons, ported heads, cams...

Shermanator
01-16-2009, 08:17 PM
my car will have all seats all headlights in place spare in ( im not pushing the ****er home)

Not tryin to be mean here. But I'm sorry to say you won't be in the 12's.

The first post rules look good to me.

Good luck all!:beer:

Chris

Vortech347
01-19-2009, 10:13 AM
Mods that can be done at the track does not hurt its streetability.

Such as slicks and skinnies & taking things out of the car at the track.

Changing the seats dosn't hurt it either unless you put cheap autozone crap in. I've taken 800 mile road trips in my fox body with its Corbeau CR1's.

IT CAN BE DONE with the stock shortblock and pistons.

ctrlraven
01-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Just a few ideas. Trash or change them as you see fit.

1) To qualify, one must have a valid time slip from a real track.
2) All safety and technical rules of said track apply.
3) Car must be "streetable." For the purpose of this "Race to NA 12's," streetable shall consist of the following:
a) Valid registration from the garaged state.
b) Windshield wipers.
c) Federally mandated safety equipment.
d) Car must be driven to and through staging lanes.
Tow vehicles or pushing to start not allowed.
4) Car shall weigh 4000 lbs with driver.
5) Owner honesty is at a premium. Power Adders such as, but not limited to, Nitrous injection are forbidden. (We all know how to hid a 125 shot).
6) Engine:
a) Engine shall be limited to 4.6L displacement.
b) Minor cylinder cleanup and minor crankshaft cleanup
to ensure balance and compression are allowed. This
in no way is to permit bored and or stroked engine
combinations to qualify.
c) Camshafts, valvetrains, intake, exhaust, porting,
polishing, or any other modifications not affecting
actual engine displacement are permitted.
d) Any transmission modification is legal
e) Any rear end or gear modification is legal.
f) Any tuning modification is legal.
g) Any weight reduction not affecting rules 2,3,4 is
legal.

That's about what I can come up with. Seems fairly simple, yet keeps cheaters somewhat at bay. Add or delete anything you want. Bottom line is this will be basically self policing.

I can live with these rules and I agree upon them.

Seneca
01-19-2009, 07:12 PM
I understand the point is to have a 12sec n/a 'rauder....

just curious....to be a "True" 12 sec car, wouldn't a second run need to be made to validate that the vehicle does in fact run that fast, and the planets didn't just align for that one run? Very good point! I agree

offroadkarter
01-19-2009, 07:23 PM
actually if you built a high comp. 4.6 you could gain quite a bit of hp.


and it'd still be a 4.6 and it'd still be N/A


So whats the problem with new pistons? Its not changing the displacement...

merc
01-19-2009, 07:24 PM
I understand the point is to have a 12sec n/a 'rauder....

just curious....to be a "True" 12 sec car, wouldn't a second run need to be made to validate that the vehicle does in fact run that fast, and the planets didn't just align for that one run?

That would rule would eliminated most cars in the top ten.

RR|Suki
01-19-2009, 07:26 PM
and it'd still be a 4.6 and it'd still be N/A


So whats the problem with new pistons? Its not changing the displacement...

wasn't the game supposed to be stock bottom end? That seems like the only prob to me. Other than that there wouldn't be a problem... get ready to spend A LOT to try and build a good high comp motor

Vortech347
01-19-2009, 08:55 PM
6B needs to go...

UNTOUCHED FACTORY SHORTBLOCK.

That 4000lb weight needs to go too. Make it 3500 if you want a limit. Hell all the stereo stuff alone in these cars is 50lbs. Not everyone needs a stereo.

RR|Suki
01-19-2009, 09:00 PM
6B needs to go...

UNTOUCHED FACTORY SHORTBLOCK.

That 4000lb weight needs to go too. Make it 3500 if you want a limit. Hell all the stereo stuff alone in these cars is 50lbs. Not everyone needs a stereo.

where is the challenge in going 12s in a 3500lb car? Wasn't the point to show that you don't need a blower to go 12s... adding the caveat "you just need to rip everything out of it" would be pretty funny. PS if you lift un-touched shortblock then the whole thing is moot... since a 324cid car has already done 12.9 :beer:

Vortech347
01-19-2009, 09:04 PM
b) Minor cylinder cleanup and minor crankshaft cleanup
to ensure balance and compression are allowed. This
in no way is to permit bored and or stroked engine
combinations to qualify.

The shortblock dosn't need to be pulled apart. It needs to stay untouched. AKA ALL THE FACTORY PARTS IN THEIR FACTORY PLACES WHERE BOB AND TOM BUILT THEM.

You don't have to rip everything out to shed alot of weight...

RR|Suki
01-19-2009, 09:12 PM
b) Minor cylinder cleanup and minor crankshaft cleanup
to ensure balance and compression are allowed. This
in no way is to permit bored and or stroked engine
combinations to qualify.

The shortblock dosn't need to be pulled apart. It needs to stay untouched. AKA ALL THE FACTORY PARTS IN THEIR FACTORY PLACES WHERE BOB AND TOM BUILT THEM.

You don't have to rip everything out to shed alot of weight...

1. it has been pretty well understood here that un-touched means stock part. It should also mean no balancing IE no weight matching pistons, no drilling or adding to the crank etc.

2. Typical race weight of a marauder is 4400+lbs... you think you are going to drop 900lbs that easily? the Trilogy 1 car has a stripped interior fuel cell etc... and weighs in over 4000...

FordNut
01-19-2009, 09:22 PM
You make a run in the 12's with internal engine (shortblock) mods, stripped parts for weight savings, etc and you get to hear "yeah, but..." every time you tell somebody about it.

WPG_Merc
01-20-2009, 12:48 AM
I think getting to the 12s is in the trans with a 3500 stall,Nitto tire's & some Custom tuning.I''ll give it a shot this spring with video & a time slip.

:burnout:

Joe Walsh
01-20-2009, 06:46 AM
You make a run in the 12's with internal engine (shortblock) mods, stripped parts for weight savings, etc and you get to hear "yeah, but..." every time you tell somebody about it.

BINGO!

Stock block, stock interior, leave the spare tire in the trunk...maybe pull the headlight & fold the side mirrors if you want to get fancy.

Paul T. Casey
01-20-2009, 07:55 AM
1. it has been pretty well understood here that un-touched means stock part. It should also mean no balancing IE no weight matching pistons, no drilling or adding to the crank etc.

2. Typical race weight of a marauder is 4400+lbs... you think you are going to drop 900lbs that easily? the Trilogy 1 car has a stripped interior fuel cell etc... and weighs in over 4000...

The biggest problem I see (other than the cash layout) is in the engine internals. I used 4200 lbs for the car, 106 mph to crack the 12's and came up with 390 rwhp to make this happen. To squeeze 390 rwhp from such a small engine without power adders, IMHO, is going to require big rpms (7200 to 7500) and big compression. Now some of the stock units are probably pretty good, but I don't know if they are 11:1 or 7200 rpm good. I also figure that a "flip switch" type tuner would be beneficial. One could de-tune said motor to be real well mannered for everyday driving, yet still have the timing and fuel at the track. I imagine that someone could pull off these numbers with simple bolt ons and radical tuning, but probably only once. Without the big compression, you may have to creep pretty near 8000 rpm to get the power you need. Anyway, it won't be easy, it won't be cheap, and it'll never catch the s/c cars, but it'll be fun.

chader
01-20-2009, 08:50 AM
JMO...in order to make this a level playing field you would have to do elavation corrected times.Way to much time is made up or lost with elavation on a N/A car.

Pops
01-20-2009, 08:53 AM
JMO...in order to make this a level playing field you would have to do elavation corrected times.Way to much time is made up or lost with elavation on a N/A car.


If thats the case you need to beat the GM which had a corrected time of 13.18! Street tune no race gas in it. The best way is the actual time slip! :D

Joe Walsh
01-20-2009, 09:04 AM
The biggest problem I see (other than the cash layout) is in the engine internals. I used 4200 lbs for the car, 106 mph to crack the 12's and came up with 390 rwhp to make this happen. To squeeze 390 rwhp from such a small engine without power adders, IMHO, is going to require big rpms (7200 to 7500) and big compression. Now some of the stock units are probably pretty good, but I don't know if they are 11:1 or 7200 rpm good. I also figure that a "flip switch" type tuner would be beneficial. One could de-tune said motor to be real well mannered for everyday driving, yet still have the timing and fuel at the track. I imagine that someone could pull off these numbers with simple bolt ons and radical tuning, but probably only once. Without the big compression, you may have to creep pretty near 8000 rpm to get the power you need. Anyway, it won't be easy, it won't be cheap, and it'll never catch the s/c cars, but it'll be fun.

You can do it with 325 RWHP at 103.5 mph.
I think that a 4.6L stock block can produce 325 RWHP, but as has been said:
It is going to take more than 6000 rpm.

Pops
01-20-2009, 09:09 AM
Joe my car shifted at 6950. The best MPH I ever got was a little over 102. Most of the time around 100. I was about 320 on the rwhp. It was like hitting a wall on the high end.

Joe Walsh
01-20-2009, 09:13 AM
Joe my car shifted at 6950. The best MPH I ever got was a little over 102. Most of the time around 100. I was about 320 on the rwhp. It was like hitting a wall on the high end.

Holy cow!..:eek:

On the stock bottom end?

What was your RWTRQ?

Pops
01-20-2009, 09:16 AM
325 Joe. The car ran good! 12000 miles beating it and no issues with the motor or oil burning!

Blackened300a
01-20-2009, 10:23 AM
Joe my car shifted at 6950. The best MPH I ever got was a little over 102. Most of the time around 100. I was about 320 on the rwhp. It was like hitting a wall on the high end.

My Hero!!!

Bradley G
01-20-2009, 10:46 AM
This thread is pissing me off! :P

chader
01-20-2009, 12:27 PM
it is only the best way if you already live in "good air/low elavation" Anyone else is pi$$ing in the wind. And as long as they are having fun who cares!

ctrlraven
01-20-2009, 12:41 PM
You can do it with 325 RWHP at 103.5 mph.
I think that a 4.6L stock block can produce 325 RWHP, but as has been said:
It is going to take more than 6000 rpm.

Capitol's track elevation is 20ft above sea level. PLUS you ran it with 3.55 gears on the 16" drag radials for a 3.90 effective rear gear. Just think if you had 4.10's and/or with those drag radials also.