Header advice sought...

[MrBluGruv]

I've tried doing some searching on the subject(s), and found mixed results in terms of useful info for my different questions, so I'm hoping with a sort of all-encompassing thread I can get the answers I need with the benefit of putting all those answers out there to comprehensively answer any possible future questions.

Anywho,

Firstly I was wondering, of all the header configurations I've seen mentioned, from the kooks long tubes to the cobra manifold swap from DR, I was curious if there were any header setups out there that are essentially direct replacements to the OE manifold in terms of length so that I could bolt them right on to where the stock exhaust starts without having to hack away too much or extend too much length.

Secondly, which setup is the least invasive for having to move and cut away at and remove parts that are in the engine compartment?

For both of those, cost is not a major issue in my book at the moment, I would find the info much more helpful now so that I could worry about price later.


Another thing I have been curious about, through which vendor(s) did you folks that have header setups go through to get them? I see that DR has full exhaust setups, but not particular mention of just the headers by themselves.



My goal with the headers is admittedly more for sound than performance, but any advice on which particular configuration would yield the greatest performance gain given a good intake and open exhaust setup would be awesome.


Thanks in advance, any help on any of the above is greatly appreciated.

[fastblackmerc]

Mustnag shorty headers.

[Master]

Love my Kooks SS headers. Wouldn't trade them for anything. The full Kooks system gets my nod.

[burt ragio]

If your main concern is sound with no additional performance save the coin & just replace the mufflers. If you want sound & best performance go with long tube Stainless Works or Kooks . The 2nd best with a performance gain would be the cobra shortys. Do a search on dyno numbers for each. If I recall S/W Long tube high flow cats apx. 55-60 hp gain. Shortys Cobra & h/f cats 15-20 hp gain.

[Zack]

No header or manifold (other than stock) will bolt up to the stock exhaust.


Do it right the first time, and buy Longtubes and pipes back to (and including) the mufflers.
I suggest the Stainless Works for their ease of install, as compared to the Kooks.

[Taemian]

No header or manifold (other than stock) will bolt up to the stock exhaust.


Do it right the first time, and buy Longtubes and pipes back to (and including) the mufflers.
I suggest the Stainless Works for their ease of install, as compared to the Kooks.

+1......Sort of, anyways.

I organized the last SW Header group buy (don't get me started), and they DO bolt up to the stock exhaust at the H pipe, before the mufflers. SW headers + SW high flow cats bolt right up, we did 3 sets of them here. (Dave, Derek and me). If you want your car LOUD, get the SW mufflers. They are insane! Dave still has a pair, he went with Flowmasters a week after since his main squeeze complained about "that awful racket". I'm sure you could get his if you want.

[RR|Suki]

That's a lot of money to spend for just sound :eek: If you're ballin like that though, go long tubes from the word go.

[rayjay]

The DR Cobra Exhaust bolts right up. However, when I had my car dyno'd there were no gains from it. ??? Not what I expected.

[RR|Suki]

The DR Cobra Exhaust bolts right up. However, when I had my car dyno'd there were no gains from it. ??? Not what I expected.

That's what I would have expected ;)

[rayjay]

That's what I would have expected ;)
I didn't expect major gains, 10hp maybe, but 0??? Oh it sounds better anyway.

[fastblackmerc]

The DR Cobra Exhaust bolts right up. However, when I had my car dyno'd there were no gains from it. ??? Not what I expected.

That's most likely because the MM stock cast iron headers are not that different than the Mustang ones.

[rayjay]

That's most likely because the MM stock cast iron headers are not that different than the Mustang ones.

Actually there was quite a difference in appearance and the DR exhaust uses one high flow cat per side instead of the OEM two. Like I said I would have been happy with 10hp gain, but 0 for a kilo buck... Live and learn. Unless I go with a SC in the future, I'm finished with engine mods.

[Zack]

A Cobra manifold does not bolt up to a Marauder exhaust.
On the drivers side it will, but not the passenger side.
Stock MM Passenger manifold = Ball Blange
Stock Cobra Passenger manifold = Flat Oval Flange w/ gasket.

[rayjay]

http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=MM-CE&Category_Code=9

The kit includes ceramic coated Cobra manifolds and piping to the stock system. If I had it to over again I'd go with the Stainlessworks header package.

[Blackened300a]

I didn't expect major gains, 10hp maybe, but 0??? Oh it sounds better anyway.

03silverstreak had the DR cobra manifolds plus the same bolt on mods I have. When we raced, I kinda expected him to pull past me on the top end since I have stock exhaust. Well no luck, I actually kept pulling away.:cool4:

I guess it just sounds cool to tell everyone you have cobra manifolds.:rolleyes:

[rayjay]

03silverstreak had the DR cobra manifolds plus the same bolt on mods I have. When we raced, I kinda expected him to pull past me on the top end since I have stock exhaust. Well no luck, I actually kept pulling away.:cool4:

I guess it just sounds cool to tell everyone you have cobra manifolds.:rolleyes:

I don't tell anyone, their all rusted. So much for ceramic coating :shake:

[fastblackmerc]

I don't tell anyone, their all rusted. So much for ceramic coating :shake:

Are you sure they were ceramic coated? My shorties still look good after 2 years. Maybe they were painted with hi-temp ceramic paint.....

[SC Cheesehead]

Are you sure they were ceramic coated? My shorties still look good after 2 years. Maybe they were painted with hi-temp ceramic paint.....

That's what I'm wondering.

[rayjay]

According to DR they were ceramic coated. Appeared similiar to the ceramic coated header I installed on my ZX3, but that never rusted.

[MrBluGruv]

Thank you all for the tips. :)

After reading these posts, I'd kinda like to focus on the SW Longtubes a bit, as it looks like that may be the solution for me:

For all you SW owners, what vendor did you go through to get them? Any preferred ones?

Also, I've seen it mentioned they are the easiest to install. How easy do you consider "easy"? I'm looking to avoid mostly if not altogether tearing into parts in the engine bay (for example I had found that apparently the kooks headers required you to mess with an engine mount to get the right fitment?). Another plus would be time constraints, I'd like to keep this in the shop for as short a time as possible. I understand a good shop would be better about this than just an easy install, but every little bit would help me. ;)

My reasoning for getting this to essentially bolt up to the stock piping from manifold back is that I have the setup I want for that space, I want to keep my O2 sensors, albeit disabled in the rear case at least, where they are in the stock position, and I wouldn't give up my mufflers for much anything as I LOVE the tone.

My desire isn't purely tone though too, it's not worth THAT much money for volume for me plus as I said I love the mufflers I have already too much. My ultimate goal for future mods is the headers, a PI Stallion and 4.10 gears, it's just that the headers are the thing I can't completely wrap my head around just yet for what I need and should get.


Cheers.

[Blackened300a]

According to DR they were ceramic coated. Appeared similiar to the ceramic coated header I installed on my ZX3, but that never rusted.

Send a Email or phone call to DR. Maybe he can point you to the brand spray paint he used so you can re-coat them.

[burt ragio]

The paint could be Krylon / Cry later.

[Taemian]

Leave exhaust mods for dead last if you're looking for bang-per-buck. High flow cats + Headers + ceramic coating + install cost= $2000

If you do get the headers, get your coating done locally. SW was charging 400 USD, and the exact same treatment was 250-275 CDN at 3 different vendors around here. The coating dramatically reduced underhood temps and cooldown times.

[freakstatus]

Leave exhaust mods for dead last if you're looking for bang-per-buck. High flow cats + Headers + ceramic coating + install cost= $2000

If you do get the headers, get your coating done locally. SW was charging 400 USD, and the exact same treatment was 250-275 CDN at 3 different vendors around here. The coating dramatically reduced underhood temps and cooldown times.

One slight correction here....you will need the lead pipes. So, headers, high flow cats, and lead pipes. The lead pipes will then bolt up directly to the stock H.:)

[03mmmonroe]

I just installed the SW headers. This week end. What they do not tell you is that you will have to rework your ERG tube. (3 hr.) To grow one inch to fit the SW header driver side. This JOB would have been easier if the fitting on the drive side header would have been straight up and done and not out toward the driver side of the car. The pass side was not a problem but you have to loosen the a/c compressor to get to the lower stud out of the head.
To get the mid pipes to meet the stock exhaust I had to pull and push the exhaust to line it up. BUT the flanges were not the same size 2 1/2 on the mid pipe to the stock system 2 inch. There is not a gasket or flange made for this difference. So I was told by SW to use High temp red RTV to seal the Flanges. It did work and the sound is still stock with the stock mufflers. BUT if you have some one that can cut and reweld the flanges then keeping the stock H pipe will work. I was at home and do not have a welder The O2 extension wire were another concern had to remove the tabs from the O2 primary plug to get it to plug in to the O2. The extension was for the down stream O2 not the Primary. Hope this helps.

I dropped my car off at High-tech in Marietta GA getting the cat back exhaust system installed. 2 ½ in stainless cat back with Magna flow muffler. Will up date on sound when I get it back.

[Taemian]

I just installed the SW headers. This week end. What they do not tell you is that you will have to rework your ERG tube. (3 hr.) To grow one inch to fit the SW header driver side. This JOB would have been easier if the fitting on the drive side header would have been straight up and done and not out toward the driver side of the car. The pass side was not a problem but you have to loosen the a/c compressor to get to the lower stud out of the head.
To get the mid pipes to meet the stock exhaust I had to pull and push the exhaust to line it up. BUT the flanges were not the same size 2 1/2 on the mid pipe to the stock system 2 inch. There is not a gasket or flange made for this difference. So I was told by SW to use High temp red RTV to seal the Flanges. It did work and the sound is still stock with the stock mufflers. BUT if you have some one that can cut and reweld the flanges then keeping the stock H pipe will work. I was at home and do not have a welder The O2 extension wire were another concern had to remove the tabs from the O2 primary plug to get it to plug in to the O2. The extension was for the down stream O2 not the Primary. Hope this helps.

I dropped my car off at High-tech in Marietta GA getting the cat back exhaust system installed. 2 ½ in stainless cat back with Magna flow muffler. Will up date on sound when I get it back.

The EGR issue wasn't a big deal with the Trilogy kit, since it has basically already been done. Flanges were ordered seperately, some people wanted flanges, others wanted no flanges for band type clamps in our GB. The O2 sensor extension stuff was included in my kit. Also, we had the 3 inch collectors and high flow cats, and I was asked how it was attaching to the car. It was my understanding that the lead pipes were part of the full-pull kit, but an option for anything else.

So, if you ordered the headers/cats/leads, everything bolted right up. The sound changed dramatically, guess it was the cats since you didn't notice much with the headers only. Glad you got it all sorted out!

[Glenn]

Any one on this net ever hear of cost vs. performance (NO and not even on CV.net). You are paying way too much including installation for your long tube headers and required complete exhaust system for maybe 10 HP over shorty headers. Why? Put your $2,000 toward a Trilogy SC and you will be much happier.

Why own a high 13 second car with LT headers ????? I ran 13.9s NA with Cobra headers and a STOCK exhaust system from the H pipe back with STOCK mufflers, tail pipes and tips.

How many SC MM with long tube headers on a STOCK internal MM engine run better then 11.9 - NOT many. If 1/4 mile time is any indicator of SC header performance then people would flock to Cobra shorty headers and H pipe. Spend your money and tell me your dyno HP numbers. If you run over 450 HP, I'll eat my new MM hat.

Glenn Ford :burnout:

OK :flamer: away.

[Blackened300a]

If you run over 450 HP, I'll eat my new MM hat.

Hey Hey Hey!!! Those things are soon to be collectors items. :D

[Taemian]

Any one on this net ever hear of cost vs. performance (NO and not even on CV.net). You are paying way too much including installation for your long tube headers and required complete exhaust system for maybe 10 HP over shorty headers. Why? Put your $2,000 toward a Trilogy SC and you will be much happier.

Why own a high 13 second car with LT headers ????? I ran 13.9s NA with Cobra headers and a STOCK exhaust system from the H pipe back with STOCK mufflers, tail pipes and tips.

How many SC MM with long tube headers on a STOCK internal MM engine run better then 11.9 - NOT many. If 1/4 mile time is any indicator of SC header performance then people would flock to Cobra shorty headers and H pipe. Spend your money and tell me your dyno HP numbers. If you run over 450 HP, I'll eat my new MM hat.

Glenn Ford :burnout:

OK :flamer: away.

I just want to confirm what you're saying here, so I understand it correctly. If I have a stock block/stock internaled 4.6, with a Trilogy and long tube headers, you're saying that 451+ hp is impossible?

And you do realize that you pretty much invalidate your own argument by saying "NOT many" as opposed to "none"? Or am I misrepresenting your arguement?

You always seem to come back to cost vs performance. Have you ever heard "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?". You will NEVER have to upgrade your LTs to go faster. At some point, you will have to upgrade your shorties. They WILL be a bottleneck. Why do the same job twice and pay twice?? That goes against everything you argue about in cost vs performance. I think this is the third time I've told you this.

Think about it: When building a house, you build a one story house with a basement. Later, it's easy to add on a second story. If you built a two story house at first, building a basement afterwards is gonna be a real b*&^#.and much more expensive.

And what is special about the 450 hp number, is that the max that the shorties will support? Just trying to understand what your point about the magical 450 is. With the stock Trilogy kit, a smaller pulley, ported blower, and LTs, I see no problem in reaching 450hp, and far easier than with shorty headers.

I'm at 400 (396 rwhp to be precise) with major lean a/f issues to sort out. (as in 13.7 a/f at 6000 rpm, 13.9 at 6100rpm followed by dynotest abort!)The middle size pulley and a decent port/polish job on the Eaton isn't that expensive either. Add a very small dry nitrous system to drop intake air temps and things should be great! Or just run race gas...whatever. I'm very curious to see what the 450 number is all about!

I'm still looking to improve torque as opposed to hp. My 3 runs were 355/359/351 tq, mirrored with 390/396/384 hp with BAP settings of 20/30/40.

[MrBluGruv]

K guys, I see this very rapidly spiralling downward into another n/a vs s/c debate for power and what not, so let me take my hat out of the ring and thank everyone who has given me input on the subject this thread was originally intended to address. I'm thinking for the sheer amount of serious workarounds I'll have to do with every available option for headers, I'll just go without at least for the time being and invest in a PI torque converter and 4.10 gears for an increase in go-go and enjoy the sexiness my exhaust already exudes for what it is. ;)

Cheers and thanks again guys. :)

[Taemian]

K guys, I see this very rapidly spiralling downward into another n/a vs s/c debate for power and what not, so let me take my hat out of the ring and thank everyone who has given me input on the subject this thread was originally intended to address. I'm thinking for the sheer amount of serious workarounds I'll have to do with every available option for headers, I'll just go without at least for the time being and invest in a PI torque converter and 4.10 gears for an increase in go-go and enjoy the sexiness my exhaust already exudes for what it is. ;)

Cheers and thanks again guys. :)

It's your car and you can do whatever you like to it. I think your gears and converter are a great choice, and you will get alot out of those mods. If you plan to s/c later though, they will give you traction problems down low speeds. Nothing that slicks can't handle, though on the street you might get more spin than you want.

Mod til you can't mod no mo'!

[Paul T. Casey]

Leave exhaust mods for dead last if you're looking for bang-per-buck. High flow cats + Headers + ceramic coating + install cost= $2000


I must respectably totally disagree with this statement, on an NA car anyway. The single biggest gain I attained was with the headers/exhaust. Not to mention the smile I get from the sound. Price per hp works out more than other mods, but, short of a power adder, you can't make leaps this size with any other mod.

[Taemian]

I must respectably totally disagree with this statement, on an NA car anyway. The single biggest gain I attained was with the headers/exhaust. Not to mention the smile I get from the sound. Price per hp works out more than other mods, but, short of a power adder, you can't make leaps this size with any other mod.

Hey Paul, that's an interesting observation. Most folks notice a drop in tq when the take away backpressure from our small displacement engines n/a. Since I'm s/c, I'll have to ask Freakstatus to step in and answer this one.

But I must also respectfully add that for $2k, you could get 4.10s, a CAI, a PI converter, and be ahead of any exhaust mods in the 1/4 mile with money left over. HP wouldn't change much, you'd just be using what you already have much more efficiently than when bone stock. Throw in full synthetics all around (average 3% increase seems to be the accepted standard) and I'd bet on the stock exhaust version winning.

I say this all after installing headers/cats, I have nothing against them!

How much did your ets change when you went to bigger exhaust?

Thanks!

[Glenn]

450 HP is the safe running limit for SC stock internals MM engine. After years of experience this is pretty much the safe limit. If you want LT headers - that's great, but there are alternatives that not many people mention. It's an option as I said.

Glenn

[Local Boy]

I'm sitting on 444Hp / 401rwtq...with 13* of timming...:D

My LT's gave me more hp and tq, but more importantly, it broadened the power curve...making it feel more refined...:beer:
Worth every penny...:beer:

ALOHA

BTW: Hope you get that lean issue fixed Ian...You, of all people, should be enjoying your LT's...

[Taemian]

I'm sitting on 444Hp / 401rwtq...with 13* of timming...:D

My LT's gave me more hp and tq, but more importantly, it broadened the power curve...making it feel more refined...:beer:
Worth every penny...:beer:

ALOHA

BTW: Hope you get that lean issue fixed Ian...You, of all people, should be enjoying your LT's...

Thanks! Dave and I are opening his new Sniper programmer this weekend. Hopefully, we'll get to the bottom of the exact same fuel issues we share. I really want to break into the 12s when the track opens this April!

[Taemian]

450 HP is the safe running limit for SC stock internals MM engine. After years of experience this is pretty much the safe limit. If you want LT headers - that's great, but there are alternatives that not many people mention. It's an option as I said.

Glenn

Thanks for the info Glenn. I know MI2Q4U has years at 500rwhp, but Lidio has really nailed the tune on that car. I'll stick to 450....if I can make it there!

[Glenn]

Keep in mind there is a BIG difference IMO between over 450 HP on the street and 450 HP at the track. If run on the track at 450 your engine better be tuned perfectly or you will have problems.

Glenn :burnout:

[O's Fan Rich]

methanol.... methanol.... methanol....

we gonna see what #132 can do 1st week of April......

[Joe Walsh]

Thank you all for the tips. :)

After reading these posts, I'd kinda like to focus on the SW Longtubes a bit, as it looks like that may be the solution for me:

Also, I've seen it mentioned they are the easiest to install. How easy do you consider "easy"? I'm looking to avoid mostly if not altogether tearing into parts in the engine bay (for example I had found that apparently the kooks headers required you to mess with an engine mount to get the right fitment?). Another plus would be time constraints, I'd like to keep this in the shop for as short a time as possible. I understand a good shop would be better about this than just an easy install, but every little bit would help me. ;)


Cheers.

Sounds like you are staying away from this mod for now....
FWIW:
The Kooks do NOT require any cutting, or engine mount modifications to fit correctly.
They DO require temporarily removing the steering shaft, and the dipstick to slide in the driver's side header.
Temporarily removing the starter also helps with the headers install clearance.
Loosening the passenger's side motor mount and slightly jacking up the passenger's side of the engine, greatly helps in mounting the passenger's side header.
Either SW or Kooks LT headers are a PITA to install by yourself for the first time.....:o

[O's Fan Rich]

Either SW or Kooks LT headers are a PITA to install by yourself for the first time.....:o

You ain't just whistling Dixie.......;)

But, they make the car sound awesome!

[freakstatus]

My LT's gave me more hp and tq

+1 here....I felt the difference almost immediately driving out of the shop.

[rayjay]

I'm sitting on 444Hp / 401rwtq...with 13* of timming...:D

My LT's gave me more hp and tq, but more importantly, it broadened the power curve...making it feel more refined...:beer:
Worth every penny...:beer:

ALOHA

BTW: Hope you get that lean issue fixed Ian...You, of all people, should be enjoying your LT's...

LB, you must be the "Rauder King" of the islands :beer:

[Local Boy]

The boys in Blue...who drive MM's are...:D

Just want to run my Full Bodied 4 Door Sedan...with the Best of them...:beer:

ALOHA

BTW: To be clear, the addition of the LT's required me to get a re-tune...Because, it ran lean @5,000 rpm's...it loss fuel pressure...went from 52lbs down to 20lbs...putting me in the 11-9 to 12.5 A/F range...at WOT...The addition of a KB BAP fixed the problem for me...:burnout:

[freakstatus]

Randy, don't forget that Kenny Brown that lurks O'ahu as well. That is a showdown I'd pay to see....

Aloha.

[Taemian]

The boys in Blue...who drive MM's are...:D

Just want to run my Full Bodied 4 Door Sedan...with the Best of them...:beer:

ALOHA

BTW: To be clear, the addition of the LT's required me to get a re-tune...Because, it ran lean @5,000 rpm's...it loss fuel pressure...went from 52lbs down to 20lbs...putting me in the 11-9 to 12.5 A/F range...at WOT...The addition of a KB BAP fixed the problem for me...:burnout:

Ummm...what's wrong with those a/f numbers? I've searched the web for the "average" of suggested a/f numbers for our car (s/c DOHC Cobras, actually) and I've seen as low as 11, and as high a 12.5 at WOT. I'm currently running at 10.1 @ 4k rpm to 13.4 @ 6k rpm. Now THOSE are stupid numbers! The Tril already include the BAP, so it's GT40 fuel pump time!

[Local Boy]

The GT-40 should get you there, Ian...

That's what I'm running...

I just wanted some cushion, and wanted the numbers to remain @ 10.9 to 11.0...

With the hp I'm pushing....I wanted it on the fat side, to be safe...

ALOHA

[RR|Suki]

Just a heads up, A/F in the 10s will kill your cats... found that out the hard way

[Taemian]

The GT-40 should get you there, Ian...

That's what I'm running...

I just wanted some cushion, and wanted the numbers to remain @ 10.9 to 11.0...

With the hp I'm pushing....I wanted it on the fat side, to be safe...

ALOHA

That sounds like a solid plan!

[Taemian]

Just a heads up, A/F in the 10s will kill your cats... found that out the hard way

Thanks, we'll be "Sniper-ing" away this weekend. Hopefully we can get it figured out without too much head scratching.:confused:

[BigCars4Ever]

If you look at this article you may get just what your looking for in terms of sound and modest gains in HP http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51454
IIRC he picked up 17 HP and some torque by changing the cats, mufflers and adding an X pipe. Stock tails and stock manifolds.

[Hooptie]

I'm gonna piggy-back on the OP's thread if ya don't mind. I understand the whole cost vs performance and LT vs Shorties thing. My question is has anybody used other shorties than FRPP's? Yes I do know that customization of the stock exhaust is/will be needed. Just trying to expoler other options and not be pigeon-holed into the 3 "main suppliers" .