Hydroboost swap

[massacre]

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[O's Fan Rich]

Why would you do that?

[RoyLPita]

No need unless you have an engine in mind that requires it.

[grampaws]

usually used on engines with little or no vaccum
available (wild cams or deisels). Usind a vac pump
on your vac brake booster will achieve the same results
cheaper. Available through Keystone.

[massacre]

OK, so no one here's done it.
Thank you.

[SC Cheesehead]

Friendly little fella, ain't he? :rolleyes:

[Smokie]

Have not actually done it, but I understand or I think I do why you are interested, to decrease the amount of pressure and travel you apply to brake pedal to achieve the same stopping results.

I'm not aware of any company that makes a kit for the panther platform so you must be thinking of fabbing your own, it can be done, it will add hoses to an already crowded engine bay going to PS pump which you have to upgrade to increase output, since the MM is a heavy car you will need at least a one ton unit.

Maybe these are things you already know, like you won't stop any quicker because once you reach the pressure required to lock the wheels ABS takes over and stopping distance is decided by the size of your rotors and type of brake pads.

You asked only if anyone here did it to a Marauder, maybe if you have a specific question about what your goals are someone here can help, there are some pretty sharp minds in this forum but I am not really sure specifically what your goals are.

[Meteorite]

Anyone here done one?

I have, but not in a Marauder.

We put hydroboost brakes in my son's 1963 Mercury Meteor. Unfortunately, we didn't take good pictures of that part of our project.

However, we benefitted greatly from this tech article by a guy who added hydroboost to his 1972 Maverick (http://www.maverickcomet.com/TechArticles/Hydroboost/Hydroboost1.asp).


Why would you do that?

In our case, it was because we went to Cobra disc brakes all around, and needed a lot of assist. Only a tiny (7" or less in diameter) vacuum booster would fit our car; anything larger hit the wiper motor.

Works great; you definitely know you have power brakes!

[hot-rauder]

Massacare, when did you pick up your MM, and where? I see your in MA..... used to be a lot of us owners in MA.

[massacre]

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[ImpalaSlayer]

No MM, early Panther. I came here because the big dogs of the Panther world are here, and if anyone had done this it would be here...lol.
Sorry if I came off snappy but some of you were like only the 1000th person to crap on my project. Yeah, I know this is a little outside the box but it's not rocket science.
Thanks to those with positive responses, I greatly appreciate it.
Since it seems no one has done this, I'll make sure I post up pics when I'm done in case someone else wants to do it(but I doubt they will, it looks like..lol).
I think I can accomplish my goal of: making enough room for a 4.5L DOHC, get slightly better pedal feel/performance, and do something different.
Thanks again guys.


some here think if it hasnt been done it isnt nessesary or cant be done or there there isnt a reason to. most of the time they are right but you didnt really tell us why you wanted to do this. maybe it would help

[Smokie]

No MM, early Panther. I came here because the big dogs of the Panther world are here, and if anyone had done this it would be here...lol.
Sorry if I came off snappy but some of you were like only the 1000th person to crap on my project. Yeah, I know this is a little outside the box but it's not rocket science.
Thanks to those with positive responses, I greatly appreciate it.
Since it seems no one has done this, I'll make sure I post up pics when I'm done in case someone else wants to do it(but I doubt they will, it looks like..lol).
I think I can accomplish my goal of: making enough room for a 4.5L DOHC, get slightly better pedal feel/performance, and do something different.
Thanks again guys.

Nothing wrong with trying something different, I would be interested in the pictures and a write up of your project. Even if is not what the average MM owner may want to do to his car it may prove useful in some circumstances, we used to have a member here that rally raced his Marauder and maybe in his case hydroboosting the brakes may prove to be an advantage over vacuum boost. Good luck with your project.:)

[SC Cheesehead]

Sorry if I came off snappy but some of you were like only the 1000th person to crap on my project. Yeah, I know this is a little outside the box but it's not rocket science.

Hey, no big deal, sounds like you've got a legit idea, and you're not just trolling for responses.

Good luck on the project, and keep us posted. :up:

[massacre]

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[ImpalaSlayer]

No, I understand why people are saying what they say, I mean, I'm modding a PANTHER. I hear it all the time from almost everyone. So I'm used to it by now, but not from the Panther guys, I guess....lol.
I want to put in a 5.4 DOHC and still actually be able to work on it. The car is down to the frame rails in the front, and I POR'd them. I can build this car how I want to, and I think the H/B setup can give me some advantages. Maybe I'll be the only one ever to do this, and that's just fine with me... what I'm doing is definitely oddball so it's harder to get info on what I'm doing. But I'm determined to follow through on my plan. Hey, if it doesn't work then I can sell the stuff and do something different. I would like to at least have the new motor between the rails before I post up pics, and the new motor mounts should be arriving next week.
Thanks again, you seem like a real cool bunch of guys, definitely the nicest/most knowledgable of the other Panther sites I went to with this question.

please keep us posted. that thing will be a beast.

[Zack]

If you get a 5.4 3 Valve instead, it will clear the booster no problem.

[massacre]

Computer to run the 3V is out of my budget, unfortunately.

[Zack]

Computer to run the 3V is out of my budget, unfortunately.

You dont need an 05+ computer to run the 3v.

[massacre]

I have spent all the money that I can spend on computer/wiring right now. I have rebuilt three harnesses already, all to work with what I need. Makes no sense to me at this point to just sail off in a completely different direction. I need to stay the course on this one.
Again, it sounds like a great idea, I'll look ito that once I get this pig up and running.

[Zack]

I have spent all the money that I can spend on computer/wiring right now. I have rebuilt three harnesses already, all to work with what I need. Makes no sense to me at this point to just sail off in a completely different direction. I need to stay the course on this one.
Again, it sounds like a great idea, I'll look ito that once I get this pig up and running.

What year is your panther?

[massacre]

1993......

[BigCars4Ever]

Most of my friends with grand nationals have removed their factory hydro boost systems because they are so unreliable and went to vacuum boosters with pumps. Nothing like getting to the end of the 1320' to find you have manual brakes.

[bigmerc2003]

What about adapting the brake system out of a 03-04 cobra? they use the hydro-boost system if I remember correctly???

[massacre]

Got a bunch of work done today, got a master cylinder that will work, only to find out that it didn't fit exactly, had to modify that, also had to cut the plunger rod 1/4". So what I thought was going to take 10 minutes ended up taking almost 4 hrs...lol.
But now it fits perfect and is bench-bled. Now I just have to mount it to the firewall, and start plumbing.
I did take a couple pics will post later.

[ImpalaSlayer]

cool man good to hear you proceding. your taking a path not many have, its gona take time

[massacre]

Yeah, I found an interesting way to clock the unit and also flip the mounting plate upside down. The plate I have has the "bubble" in it, that when in the stock position puts the unit and the master at a slight upward angle. The firewall in the merc already has a pitch in it, but wasn't so pronounced with the flat booster. Add the rake of the firewall, plus the "bubble", and now the angle is a little extreme, and I was concerned about hood clearance(I have to run the stock hood on this car). Flipping the bubble upside down cancels out the firewall rake and it comes out almost level. http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1464r.jpg
I hope to have it mounted this weekend.

[massacre]

Made a plate today from 3/16" plate, using a template I made from the holes that went to the booster. No way is this 'stang mounting plate going to line up with the existing holes in the firewall. There's alot going on back there with wiring and pedals and what-not so I figured I should definitely go for known holes with nothing behind them, rather than start drilling through stuff...lol.
Plate came out OK, had to drill a 3" hole plus 4 1/2"holes, and cut a couple of curves in it to avoid some humps on the firewall. If all goes well tomorrow I should have it lightly mocked before paint. Then I can install the HCU for the ABS and start plumbing towards my new SS brake lines that I got from this site, TCE IIRC. They look great, with the added pressure of the hydroboost I'm not taking any chances on these stock rubber lines...yikes.

[massacre]

Sorry guys computer was fubar'd and couldn't get online. But I have new one now...lol
Made some progress the other day..
What I ended up doing was cutting the "bubble" out of the mustang firewall plate, and tack-welding it to the plate that I made that fits the Merc firewall. After mocking it up, I realized that the bubble was just too much, the master and reservoir were at a downward angle, not good. So I cut the tacks, and with a grinder "laid down" the bubble, grinding the top down but leaving the bottom alone. This is hard to visualize but once I get the pics onto my new 'puter it will be more apparent. After laying the angle of the bubble down like an 1/8~-3/16" it seemed like it would fit nicely, unfortunately I was doing the grinding at work, and the car was not right there to check. After tacking that, and bringing it to the car and mocking it up, it looked perfect. Master is level, maybe just ever so slightly leaning upward. The flat top of the reservoir is not level, but is not that bad at all, I think it'll work great. After that mockup, I countersunk the mounting holes and used countersunk allen bolts to hold the plate to the firewall. Initially I was using some hex-headed bolts that I had tacked to the plate, this setup looks so much neater.
So I just have to take it off again to finish/prime/paint it and that part is done.
One step closer....

[69marquis conv]

You might find more info in the Early Bronco community (www.classicbroncos.com (http://www.classicbroncos.com)). They have been fitting hydroboost units to early Broncos for years due to spacing issues under the hood of the old Broncos. If you've ever seen an early Bronco (1966-1977) with factory power brakes you'll know why.
They not only have used late model Cobra units but Chevy Astro and others as well.

[massacre]

Interesting that you should mention this, When researching this swap I read alot of Bronco stuff on several Bronco forums. It was very helpful mostly because alot of them use a steering box, not a rack&pinion system. The late model Mustangs like the car I got my H/B unit from use the R&P steering, while the Merc uses a steering box. It was also where I learned that I'll probably need a P/S cooler. I have a Terminator cooler coming, I'll start there and see what happens. Alot of people use 70s Grand Marquis units also...:shrug:

[RWR]

You dont need an 05+ computer to run the 3v.

how would you have run the throttle by wire and variable cam timing?

[massacre]

[/URL] (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1469y.jpg)
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[massacre]

^^ here are some pics. The first pics are of the template and plate that I made, and the "bubble" that I cut from the GT Mustang mounting plate. The bottom pic is the final mockup. Now I just have to finish/prime/paint it to match the firewall.

[sd8683]

Looks great! Make sure to keep us posted on your progress.

[massacre]

Thanks man.

[Joe Walsh]

That is a really nice looking mod/install!
That would be a great mod on my '84 Mustang GT Turbo.
I could eliminate the big OEM vacuum reserve canister that looks like a coffee can under the hood.

[massacre]

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1531/img1476.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1476.jpg)

Here is the rod that connects to the pedal. Pedal feels like stock height and the rod is not at any radical angle at all, seems to fit like it was meant to.
The stock rubber boot was ripped so I'm on the hunt for one of those.

[LightningVic]

I actually measured everything out for this swap around 5 years ago, I found a trick that works for the A/C suitcase on the Pass side. The 91-93 suitcase is thinner by about an inch and a half than the 94 and up suitcase piece, and they are interchangeable. If you have a 94 or up panther you can swap over to this and it gives you enough clearance to put the motor in without having to hack up and repair your stock one. It looks like you already have a 93, so you should be fine. Keep in mind though that the motor is going to rock back and forth on the mounts. I highly suggest making yourself some solid mounts. As long as the tranny still has a rubber or polyeurethane mount, it doesnt result in too much of a change in the ride of the car, although if you have really lopey cams in the 5.4, it may rock the whole car from side to side at lights, which is not necessarily a bad thing haha. Without the mounts, I believe that the motor has enough freedom of movement that even if it clears the pass suitcase when the motor is off, when it is on, it could tap the A/C box, which you dont want.

[LightningVic]

Marauder guys pay attention to this, because once the hydroboost is done, and you swap out the pass side suitcase, you have the side to side clearance you need. A nice cowl hood is available now to clear the intake manifold, now the only obstacle is the wiper cowl clearance which I am sure there is a solution to. Blah Blah Blah a well built 4.6 can make more power blah blah, same arguments ive been hearing since i bought the car in 2002, but if you like an all motor car that runs hard, the 5.4 dohc is a great alternative.

[ImpalaSlayer]

hey Rob, any updated pics for us?

[massacre]

Lightning vic, thanks for your resposes.

Dave, I have had to work on the house lately so not too much going on right now but I do have some pics I took recently of the lines/calipers, etc. Almost ready to bleed.
I'll post them up when I get a chance.