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Dennis Reinhart
09-28-2003, 07:37 AM
What it is –
Every rotating object has a “critical” speed or resonant speed, which is a function of its design, mass and stiffness. This is when the driveshaft is whipping in the middle, rather than spinning on a true centerline. For a driveshaft, this is also called “first bending mode”, indicating the shaft actually bows out into a boomerang shape (on a micro-scale). This first mode bending speed is usually referred to in a driveshaft frequency.

What it does –
The energy stored and released through the deflection of the driveshaft through the resonance creates lateral and vertical accelerations of >10g at the problem frequency, which results in broken transmission extension housings, cases and causes moderate to severe vibration at highway speeds (> 70 mph), particularly with axle ratios numerically higher than 3.27:1. This energy release, when compounded by excessive driveshaft imbalance (some is good, too much or too little is not), companion flange run out/imbalance and excessive driveline angles provides the driver with excessive vibration and boom and tortures the driver and driveline components in general.

Because of this, most vehicles have a speed limiter to prevent from entering this mode and causing damage to the driveline.

Some detail –
As mentioned above, the driveshaft rotates at a certain speed based on rear axle ratio; tire size and road speed, but is independent of engine speed (unless you have a vehicle such as a Porsche 944 or C5 Corvette which utilize torque tubes and transaxles, in which case the driveshaft turns at engine speed).

The factors governing driveshaft critical speed include its material properties (i.e., Bulk Modulus of Elasticity which is roughly analogous to material stiffness), diameter, and length and to a lesser degree, wall thickness.

The only factor you can really modify to affect critical speed is material choice. Length is package-dictated, and diameter is usually constrained by driveline tunnel space as well. The answer then becomes a bit simpler – replace your steel shaft with an aluminum or MMC (metal matrix composite) shaft. Both offer reduced weight, which is key in this frequency range. MMC offers the additional bonus of additional damping and stiffness over a typical aluminum alloy.

As mentioned above, at the frequencies in question, a change in rotational mass has a greater impact on resonant frequency than a change in stiffness does, partly since it is easier to reduce mass than increase stiffness (adding stiffness almost invariably means adding mass -- a vicious circle), but particularly since resonant frequency is equal to the sqrt (k/m), where m is mass and k is stiffness. Here m is a stronger function being the in the denominator of a square root. So you can see that as “m” gets smaller, the resonant frequency “f” gets much bigger.

The use of an aluminum shaft provides a dual purpose – increasing critical speed out of the operating range AND directly reduces the rotational forces since those rotational forces are governed by:

F = mr w**2
Where w is rotation speed, m is the mass and r is the radius at which it is spinning.

This means that a 50% reduction in rotational mass results in 50% less rotational force. So, when a driveshaft rotates out of true, due to run out of the shaft itself or due to trans output shaft or axle companion flange run out, the reduced mass * the radius of gyration (i.e., run out) product is smaller than for the same conditions with a steel shaft.

This becomes important not only at critical speed, but at more normal operational speeds where the effects of run out and mass imbalance are more evident than those of resonance:

For a typical Fox or SN95 Mustang, driveline critical speed is around 95-100 Hz. Using stock tires we have the following:

225-60R15, 225-55R16, 245-45R17 all rotate at 812-820 revs/mile at 60 mph.

This give is 13.5 Hz wheel frequency at 60 mph, and assuming a 3.27 axle, we then have:

812/60*3.27 or 44.25 Hz , driveline frequency.

So, 100/44.25*60 yields a driveline critical VEHICLE speed of 135 mph. A good rule of thumb states that the objectionable driveline forces will start becoming significant at 70% of resonant frequency, so for the case of the 3.27 axle, the boom and vibration may be felt beginning at 95 mph.

Typically, 3.27 axles don’t provide the driver with much to complain about; it is 3.73 and above which create the concerns. Using a 3.73, we find that

13.53*3.73 gives 50.5 Hz wheel frequency at 60 mph (substantially higher than the 3.27)

And the critical VEHICLE speed then becomes

100/50.5*60 or 119 mph.

Taking 70% of 119 mph equals 83 mph, certainly a speed at which some Mustang drivers experience occasionally.

For a 4.10 axle, the “70% speed” is 76 mph!

Compounding this problem are factors like transmission output shaft run out, imbalances and run outs from components such as the reverse sun gear, driveshaft, companion flange and pinion pitch line run out (a torque induced run out created when the pinion tries to crawl up the face of the ring gear involutes).

Combine these factors and the already marginal NVH resulting from proximity to 1st bending (critical speed) and the NVH becomes absolutely agricultural.

The aluminum shaft minimizes the contribution from companion flange run out and the driveshaft’s own run out, directly due the lower mass. The pinion is free to pitch +/- 20 degrees and adding in any run outs of the companion flange or driveshaft at the pinion end results in the driveshaft mass having a large eccentric path to wobble about. It is this path times the mass of the driveshaft, which gives the characteristic boom and vibration at highway speeds.

Thus, as Newton predicted, as mass decreases so will the forces. That is why an aluminum shaft is your friend when coupled to 3.73s.

One side note: that great big mass on your pinion nose, fondly named by driveline engineers after the appendage on a male moose, is tuned to 45 Hz, the frequency at which the 2nd order forces created by u-joints as they rotate, force the pinion to bounce or pitch up and down and shake you by the seat of your pants and create an uncomfortable boom in the car. Once again run outs and imbalances will modulate this 2nd order driveline phenomenon to make it worse, so the moral is, LEAVE THE MOOSEB-, uh, DAMPER ON the pinion nose!

Another item: you CAN expect more axle noise when using an aluminum shaft however, which does not necessarily mean the pinion depth or side shims are incorrect, or that the gear cutting process is flawed. It just means that the aluminum shaft is more willing to “bend” circumferentially, torsionally and in a double hump (2nd bending) much more easily than a steel shaft.

Recall my prior statements at the very beginning about aluminum stiffness vs. steel? Picture a piece of sheet metal ducting. Bend it and it makes a WA-WA sound. That is pretty much what a driveshaft does, but at a much higher frequency – higher than even the dreaded “critical speed” of 100 Hz.

Axle noise will occur from about 350 Hz all the way through 500 Hz, sometimes even higher than that. The energy comes from the teeth meshing at the pinion/ring gear interface. This energy is transmitted to the driveshaft (and suspension components) and makes them deflect in the same sense as a piece of sheet metal goes WA-WA. Aluminum is less stiff than steel and takes less energy to deflect it, so it is far more inclined to make your axle go WOOOOO as you drive down the road at 45-70 mph.

Assuming again a 3.73 axle ratio, which has 11 teeth on the pinion and 41 on the ring gear, the axle noise frequency is calculated as (at 45-70 mph):

815/60*3.73*11 or 557 Hz at 60 mph.

This means the WOOO you hear at 45 mph is about 418 Hz and the WEEEEEE you hear at 70 mph is way up there at 650 Hz. You can’t SEE the driveshaft is bending and breathing and twisting, but it is telling you that precisely that is occurring.

So, now armed with this information, you now understand the basics of your vehicle’s driveline.

Information provided by JW

Marauder57
09-28-2003, 07:44 AM
Well that was pretty darn informative! Bottom line...new driveshaft for my MM. :D

vaderv
09-28-2003, 09:15 AM
Damn brother,Newtonian theory! I am impressed.

BigMerc
09-28-2003, 09:37 AM
I'm sorry I was on the phone, can you repeat that please?

Billatpro
09-28-2003, 09:38 AM
OK, now I fully understand the "Dynamics" here! I am glad I read this post in the morning rather then last night or I would have only understood 3% of what you said rather then the 9% I understand now!

TripleTransAm
09-28-2003, 09:51 AM
Wow. Killer description. Thanks for posting this!

jgc61sr2002
09-28-2003, 10:02 AM
Dennis - You are the MAN.:up:

MapleLeafMerc
09-28-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
What it is –

The energy stored and released through the deflection of the driveshaft through the resonance creates lateral and vertical accelerations of >10g at the problem frequency, which results in broken transmission extension housings, cases and causes moderate to severe vibration at highway speeds (> 70 mph), particularly with axle ratios numerically higher than 3.27:1.

Information provided by JW

Does this mean I shouldn't put 4.10 gears in without upgrading the driveshaft?

Larry

Dennis Reinhart
09-28-2003, 10:52 AM
It means its a very good Idea, this whole thread got started by the simple question why is the Marauder speed limited to 123MPH

MapleLeafMerc
09-28-2003, 11:31 AM
Thanks Dennis-

After a month at MM.net, I'm an example of the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" :lol:

Larry

FordNut
09-28-2003, 11:31 AM
Dennis,
This is very informative, but one statement does bring a question to mind.

You say leave the damper on the yoke. The MMX shaft you got the dynotech folks to craft up for us has the yoke without a damper. Care to explain the reasoning behind this? Maybe it has less flex and is much better balanced and therefore doesn't need it?

Thanks.

Dennis Reinhart
09-28-2003, 11:52 AM
The Yoke on the MMDS is directly from Ford thats why the cost is a littile higher, we first tried a after market yoke and it was longer than the OEM and had to be shortened, so I had Dynoteck just use the new updated yoke. the whole assembly is ballanced

Smokie
09-28-2003, 04:23 PM
So a stock Marauder with rear tires rotating at 724 revs/mile has 100% critical resonant speed of 140 MPH and at 70% a speed of 98 MPH.

mroder
09-29-2003, 07:49 AM
My MM 300A came with a factory aluminum drive shaft . I assume that all MM came with these but I met a several MM owners that had no clue if theirs had one or not.


Do all MMs have this???

Dennis Reinhart
09-29-2003, 08:36 AM
THE DRIVE SHAFT IS SPEED LIMITED TO 123mph the OEM shaft is not a MMDS

deerejoe
09-29-2003, 08:40 AM
Dennis:

Outstanding information regarding physical laws governing the propeller shaft(s).
Very well explained.

Now, can you explain the engineering required to make the auto trans. relatively "bullet proof" and how the Germans and Italians do it for their HIGH HP autos??

SergntMac
09-29-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Smokie
So a stock Marauder with rear tires rotating at 724 revs/mile has 100% critical resonant speed of 140 MPH and at 70% a speed of 98 MPH.
Interesting formula, Smokie, thanks. I followed another formula, more like a simple index. With 4:10 gears, 120 MPH in 3rd gear is 6000 driveshaft RPMs, which is pushing things to the edge of tolerance of the OEM drive shaft. Not the way to end your best ET, eh?


Originally posted by mroder
My MM 300A came with a factory aluminum drive shaft . I assume that all MM came with these but I met a several MM owners that had no clue if theirs had one or not. Do all MMs have this???
Yes, the OEM shaft on the Marauder is aluminum, but it's not as well constructed, or, balanced as the DynoTech shaft from Dennis. I suppose you could pull the OEM shaft, yoke and flange, add your own beefy Dana u-joints and have a driveshaft shop work out the balance bugs, but you would spend as much, if not more, and still have the lower grade drive shaft at the core problem.

IMHO...If you're going to be doing any serious driving with your MM, take a hard look at this upgrade. Not only does it address the shortcomings of the OEM, it insures that your new found Stage I power is going to get to the rear wheels safely. When driveshafts blow out, they usually take other stuff with them.

Just my .02c...

joflewbyu2
09-29-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by SergntMac



Yes, the OEM shaft on the Marauder is aluminum, but it's not as well constructed, or, balanced as the DynoTech shaft from Dennis.

Just my .02c... mine stock OEM shaft is aluminum and has a welded balance weight on it. smooth as glass at 110 mph, not sure at 140 mph though til i get back the superchips tuner.

Racerx88
09-29-2003, 12:10 PM
Is it not possible to just have the stock shaft rebalanced to allow for the higher speeds?

MAD-3R
09-29-2003, 12:21 PM
With money everything is possable

Dennis Reinhart
09-29-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Racerx88
Is it not possible to just have the stock shaft rebalanced to allow for the higher speeds?


Fellas some of you are missing the boat here, the stock shaft is not designed to run past a 123 MPH, balance has nothing to with it, it's the shafts metal composition, what happens is the drive shaft will flex in and out this resonance can cause the rear tail shaft to shatter if you want to drive your car at 140 MPH, on a stock Marauder shaft thats your choice . I have said this all along, the Mark 8 had the same issues, only worse at 95 MPH on some cars it could shake the rear view mirror off the windshield. All this was confirmed out at Ennis, that is why the Marauder is speed limitied to 123 MPH. All my intent was to help as I always do.

Racer I am not arguing here I am presenting facts, the facts are in the technical write up posted above, how many ways can I explain this, do to the stock OEM metal composition of the drive shaft at ctitcal speed it sets up a harmonic or flex that can destroy, the transmission, for those members that are not driving over a 100 MPH with 4:10 the stock shaft will be ok, now why not just pick the phone up and call I will gladly explain all this again over the phone if you like.


Dennis A Reinhart
904-276-5003

Racerx88
09-29-2003, 01:23 PM
No Dennis, some of us are not "missing the boat" here, some of us just don't have infinite knowledge about driveshafts. I still think my question was a fair one, and I'd still like a better answer. Common sense would say that one could balance the shaft to a higher rotational speed than normal, thereby canceling out that unwanted flex, moving the resonanace to a higher rpm. If you're saying that balancing won't affect that flex, it sounds to me like the stock shafts aren't absolutely straight to begin with. If they were, there'd be no flex to deal with, as nothing would be throwing the balance off.

SergntMac
09-29-2003, 05:13 PM
Racer, I hear ya, but while it seems like the OEM drive train components could be balanced better, it also seems that they could be made of stronger, or, more durable metals too.

Sweating your way through the balance issues here, is one way of inviting others to sweat their way through your wallet, ya know? Taking the other path available to us seems more cost effective in the long run, while it also closes the book on this discussion.

At least this is how I see it...My .02c. One drive shaft fixes all, eh?

Dennis Reinhart
09-29-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Racerx88
If you're saying that balancing won't affect that flex, it sounds to me like the stock shafts aren't absolutely straight to begin with. If they were, there'd be no flex to deal with, as nothing would be throwing the balance off.

Racer, again balance has nothing to with it, the drive shaft can be perfectly balanced, but do to the metal composition the drive shaft will actually resonate or flex, this flex has nothing to do with balance, this is do to the metal composition of the OEM shaft, this flex can cause the rear tail shaft to shatter, or ruin the rear tail shaft bushing, The Composite Metal Matrix Drive shaft is made of a composite Metal Matrix aluminum, its lighter than steel and twice as strong because of that in has a higher critical drive line speed, so its not prone to the problem of the OEM?

What it is –
Every rotating object has a “critical” speed or resonant speed, which is a function of its design, mass and stiffness. This is when the driveshaft is whipping in the middle, rather than spinning on a true centerline. For a driveshaft, this is also called “first bending mode”, indicating the shaft actually bows out into a boomerang shape (on a micro-scale). This first mode bending speed is usually referred to in a driveshaft frequency.

What it does –
The energy stored and released through the deflection of the driveshaft through the resonance creates lateral and vertical accelerations of >10g at the problem frequency, which results in broken transmission extension housings, cases and causes moderate to severe vibration at highway speeds (> 70 mph), particularly with axle ratios numerically higher than 3.27:1. This energy release, when compounded by excessive driveshaft imbalance (some is good, too much or too little is not), companion flange run out/imbalance and excessive driveline angles provides the driver with excessive vibration and boom and tortures the driver and driveline components in general.

Because of this, most vehicles have a speed limiter to prevent from entering this mode and causing damage to the driveline.

vegasmarauder
09-29-2003, 10:43 PM
Well hit me over the head with a drive shaft, but make it an MMC, or is that an aluminum?, damper, no damper. It was a great explanation but all you really need to just say is "All MM's need a composite drive shaft". After hearing the comments at the banquet in Ennis, I think it should be the first mod, not only for speed, but even durability. I just have to knock over a couple more 7-11's and I can order by the deadline.

Thanks mucho for the info Dennis, I printed it and put in my info binder..

Jeff
09-29-2003, 11:42 PM
Thanks, Dennis. :D

Racerx88
09-30-2003, 06:19 AM
Enough said. Thanks Dennis.

rumble
09-30-2003, 02:05 PM
One last peice of information re. our MM driveshafts. Steve Babcock said that this was the result of the Panther platform needing a very long driveshaft. Asuming that a Mustang uses a shorter shaft may be the reason that they don't suffer this fate.

sailsmen
09-30-2003, 02:49 PM
The aircraft industry tragically became well aware of this when they started high performance aircraft built of aluminum.

Nothing to do with aluminum, only the lite weight nature allowed higher preformance re****ing in this being encountered.

Hemlock
09-30-2003, 02:52 PM
BUY THE SHAFT , YOU WILL LIKE , I PROMISE !! CHEERS , HEMLOCK .

gonzo50
09-30-2003, 03:23 PM
The best type of maintenance is "Preventive Maintenance", Thanks Dennis. :up:

AFSP13
11-13-2003, 04:06 PM
Just because a matirial is stronger and lighter than another material does not mean that it is any better or worse. in the drive shaft you are also talking about torsion , shearing, expansion,
compression, lenght of drive shaft and other forces whether induced or parasidic. another way of taking care of the problem is by supporting the already balanced drive with a seprate bearing somewere around the middle and or two seperate drive shafts well balanced and supported with a carrier bearing. depending on the material used , how it is made and other variables it will have better balance and take alot more troque than a single drive shaft . NOTE this was not written to disrespect any one

Dennis Reinhart
11-13-2003, 05:32 PM
Well AFS your wrong here, the stock shaft reaches critical speed around 123 MPH with 3:55 gears so when you add 4:10's the critical speed drops proportionately, that's why the car is speed limited, now The Metal Matrix Drive shaft is made out of composite metal Matrix, aluminum, which is lighter and twice as strong as the OEM Drive shaft because of this the critical speed is increased making the car safe to drive above 100 MPH especially with 4:10 gears, critical speed is the point where the shaft will actually flex in and out causing a severe drive line vibration, this can break the rear transmission tail shaft as well as shake the mirror off the windshield

jgc61sr2002
11-13-2003, 05:41 PM
When Dennis speaks everyone listens.:bounce:

AFSP13
11-13-2003, 05:49 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you . the metal matrix drive shaft is lighter and probably stiffer than the aluminum compound of the oem drive shaft. all iam saying is the metal matrix is not the magic bullet to end all inherently it does not matter what material is used it will vibrate at a higher speed than the oem shaft but it will vibrate none of the less. just like you state that the oem drive shaft is limited to 123mph . the metal matrix has limits also.

Dennis Reinhart
11-13-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by AFSP13
i'm not disagreeing with you . the metal matrix drive shaft is lighter and probably stiffer

it's not Probably it is a far superior period.

than the aluminum compound of the oem drive shaft. all iam saying is the metal matrix is not the magic bullet to end all inherently it does not matter what material is used it will vibrate at a higher speed than the oem shaft but it will vibrate none of the less.

yes but its very minimal and thats what were after.

just like you state that the oem drive shaft is limited to 123mph . the metal matrix has limits also.

I agree I have not found it, I have one in my 96 Mark 8 it makes 530 RWHP to the wheels this equates to over 600 to the flywheel the car runs tens at over 130 MPH, so when you find the limits post the information for us, it will make interesting reading by some I guess

WolfeBros
11-13-2003, 07:53 PM
Sorry AFSP13 your point may have merit but in the context of this thread does it have any useful meaning ???

If the real limit of the metal matrix driveshaft is 900 hp and some god awful driveline RPM ........does it really make a difference to anyone here and do we really care ?? It is a good solution to those putting higher HP to the ground and/or those that will turn higher driveline speeds for any length of time.

Mr. Reinhardt is trying to reach and educate those that may put their cars in a situation where the stock driveshaft will fail and/or induce driveline damage due to vibration. We know it has happened, at what speeds it has happened and we know what damage it can do. This is all truth. We have seen it. Dennis has a solution. He posts good valid information that someone can use for a decision on whether they want to replace their driveshaft or not.

Your point is well taken that we can all abuse just about any material to the point of failure. If you have information on these metal matrix composite driveshafts failing then please share with us the information and we will all learn along with you. Otherwise IMHO your point is argumentative and serves no purpose.....in the context of this thread. And I mean no disrepect either.

chapel1
11-13-2003, 08:29 PM
I do appreciate this thread.And Dennis please know I'm impressed with your patience and your efforts to educate.Ive learned a lot,My next Mod will be to get a metal matrix driveshaft. Gary Chapel

bob35222
11-13-2003, 08:37 PM
Some large high performance cars offer other more expensive and heavier solutions. I was reminded of them the other day when stuck in traffic next to a long bed truck. The drive shaft is divided in two with a big bearing frame mounted between the two sections. There would then be four U joints, one at each end and one each side of the bearing. The two shorter drive shafts would resonate at much higher RPMs than one short shafts. In some circumstances this is a good solution, as in in road racing, where a single long drive shaft might be susceptible to damage on a rough track. It isn't suitable for drag racing because of the increased weight and friction induced by the added components. the split drive shaft does isolate the transmission from forces transmitted from the rear axle.

Also, to put what Mr Reinhart said in previous posts a little different way, the formulas regarding resonance and flex are based on an assumed PERFECT balance. So these indicate an ideal state not capable being achieved in manufacturing. If I think I'll ever want or need to do more than about 100 MPH in the MM I'll be getting a Metal Matrix drive shaft.

Great discussion all. Now if MrR Reinhart would talk to us on another thread about the transmission in our '04s that would be great. Cheers. Bob

jarchie
07-10-2007, 07:37 PM
Not to argue with any one, I think what you are saying Dennis is that this shaft takes care of a lot of short comings that the stock one has. In order to change the resonant frequency of an item, you need to change size, weight, mass or material composition. Sounds like this drive shaft does all of the above. therefore, problem solved by moving the critical speed to a higher range than you will need. Does that sound correct?

BruteForce
07-10-2007, 08:59 PM
Warning! FOUR year old thread alert! :flamer:

Just for the record, some members have found that merely having the OEM drive shaft rebalanced solved the problem too. Others, me included, bought the fancy shmancy MMX shaft and are equally pleased.

Blackened300a
07-12-2007, 03:17 PM
Some of us have taken their Marauder up to nearly 140MPH with 4.10's installed and the stock driveshaft left alone without any issues.

Dennis Reinhart
07-12-2007, 06:11 PM
Some of us have taken their Marauder up to nearly 140MPH with 4.10's installed and the stock driveshaft left alone without any issues.


Your lucky, I dont care to take that risk, the FHP lost three transmision tail shafts that way prior to going with the upgraded drive shaft.