Electrical / Starting issue - Need help fast!

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Alright, I can't figure this one out, For the last month I have been fighting this problem.

It all started when one morning after leaving the car outside for a day or two without being started. As I turned the key all the dash lights lit up like normal but the car wouldn't turn over, no solenoid clicking nothing, multiple attempts and nothing. Over the last month I have found that after running the vehicle up to temp and shutting it off it will not start again until it cools most of the way down. Also If the vehicle sits for more than a day without being started, it won't start at first but for what ever reason a few hours after trying it, it will eventually start. But as long as the vehicle is started each day, it would continue to start when cold.

Now during this time I have removed and inspected the starter/solenoid nothing wrong there, bench tested them also and cleaned all connections. Checked all fuses multiple times. One thing I did find was that while one person held the key all the way over as to crank it, I tugged on the small wire that attaches to the starter solenoid and it started, but this only worked once. It might have been a fluke. Any ideas? I also know its not the battery.

I've also played with the shifter thinking possibly neutral safety switch but nothing.... Now yesterday I went outside to start it after it sitting for two days and again it wouldn't start, kept trying it all day and nothing. Now I have been with it this morning and it still won't start. Tried playing with the small wire but to no avail. I traced the wire to a disconnect boot on the passenger fender and that connection looks clean. I thought about running an extra wire from the selonoid to the disconnect boot on the fender to see if I have a break somewhere on that wire, but it leaves the starter as a single wire and when I pop apart the boot its two wires, one black and one white...


The wife is due with the baby anytime now and I NEED to make this car reliable ASAP!!! Thoughts?

[Joe Walsh]

Judging by your description of the problem, when you say 'won't start' you mean that it won't crank over...
But if you can get it to crank over it fires right up?
I can check my service manual and see what checks and procedures to follow for your symptoms.
I'm wondering if it has to do with your key/lock cylinder/PATS system.

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Yep when I say won't start I mean it won't crank. But when it does crank it starts like new. I don't think its the key/lock cylinder/PATS system, I could be wrong but I tried all four of my keys no difference, also the security light is not blinking rapidly, nothing appears to be out of the norm with that. Unless your talking the slide switch in the column...

I just went back out and found a body ground along side the battery with two wires, took them off and cleaned thoroughly, no difference....

[MinnesotaMuscle]

OK, this is what I have found and done so far this morning!

I picked up a "remote manual" push button bypass starter, I connected one end to the large positive post that supplies the starter motor, and the other to the solenoid positive post, and the vehicle will start using the push button bypass. I believe I have a break somewhere on the wire that attaches to the small post on the solenoid, its a yellow wire with a green stripe. I chased it to about three inches up from where it attaches to the solenoid and there does seem to be a week spot where the wire turns at an angle. Problem is its HEAVILY wrapped in the plastic sleeve and then wrapped in electrical tape. (like this from the factory). I followed it to the passenger fender where it separates from the main group of wires, it comes to a disconnect boot on the fender. What I'm doing now is to run a NEW wire from the stud on the solenoid to this boot and see if it fixes it, inturn bypassing the brake.

We'll see what happens next....

[MinnesotaMuscle]

*UPDATE* - Not what I thought....

OK, we ran a bypass wire from the small solenoid stud to the disconnect boot on the fender and the problem still persists. SO, the wire IS NOT the problem, but somewhere further down the line... Could it be the ignition switch or "slide switch on the column? And is there a way to test the ignition switch. I've pulled the columns apart before to inspect what I call the "slide switch" but never on this vehicle.

[MinnesotaMuscle]

ok, more new stuff, I put my voltage tester on the OTHER side of the disconnect boot, the side that goes to the underhood fuse block and ignition switch, and sure enough no power to that point with the key turned to the "crank" position. SO now I know my problem isn't the wire at all but somewhere between the disconnect boot and the ignition. I followed the wire from the boot right into the fuse box that is mounted near the passenger fender. So I started pulled one of the three fuses that are labled for "starter" and the relay labled "starter". This is the reading I recieved for each of the fuses...

Fuse 101 - Key in OFF pos - 0.0 volts
Key in run pos - 6.7 Volts
Key in crank pos - 0.67Volts

Fuse 112 - Key in OFF pos - 0.0 volts
Key in run pos - 9.1 Volts
Key in crank pos - At first it spikes to 10.0Volts but then drops off to
9.5Volts

Fuse 115 - Key in OFF pos - 0.0 volts
Key in run pos - 7.8 Volts
Key in crank pos - 0.0Volts

I also found that the relay was good, and we have 12.6Volts constant to the one post that the relay plugs into and when I turn it over you can hear the relay clicking. I even swapped it with another one in the box and same thing. SO I have power to the relay all the time, does the relay have two power supplies, one all the time and another when the key is cranked???? I'm thinking my problem is in that fuse box somewhere...

[captain]

I think you got it circuit 37 (Y) is bad
Can you fix it?

[MinnesotaMuscle]

not sure, sent you a PM. call me when you can.

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Well I have chased this down threw the fuse block under the hood, down to the ignition switch, and past that. I just checked the brown/pink wire that runs from the Digital Transmission Range Sensor to the #9 fuse, and found that I have no continuity! Its hard dealing with the wire cluster but right now I'm running a new wire from the fuse block and am going to use a small probe and see if by probing right at the wire harness to possibly by-pass the possible broken wire... Thoughts????????

The way I understand this ignition system, The power comes into the Digital Transmission Range Sensor, then to the #9 fuse under the dash, from there it goes to the ignitions switch, then off to the fuse block under the hood where it meets the ignition switch relay. Nest it goes through the three fuses which I think are in this order 112-115-101 then it goes down to the S-post on the starter solenoid...... whew...

[Blk Mamba]

This particular model is know for broken wires in the large bundle of wires on the driver side engine compartment, where it goes behind the cam cover, other cv's and gm's don't have this engine, and don't have this problem.

[MinnesotaMuscle]

This particular model is know for broken wires in the large bundle of wires on the driver side engine compartment, where it goes behind the cam cover, other cv's and gm's don't have this engine, and don't have this problem.

Yea I have done ALLOT of reading on just about every electrical issue posted here and many other boards. Sounds like the first half of the cars to come off of the assembly line had the issue of the wire harness rubbing against the driver's cylinder head, but they they caught it in time to fix it for the second half! Thanks allot FORD!

I thought about trying to find the bad spot but quickly realized that was going to be near impossible given the severe lack of sp[ace and accesibility without tearing that side of the motor down....

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Well, I did what I said, I ran a new wire from the Digital Transmission Range Sensor to the #9 fuse, and it didn't make a difference. Man what a pain in the butt that was! So what I did from there was find another 12 Volt source in the fuse block under the dash that only had power when in the crank position, and run it across directly to the disconnected boot that goes to the S-post on the solenoid. Sure enough now the car starts like it should. So my I'm going to search for a power source in the fuse block under the hood that comes on only in the crank position and just run a new wire right in to the S-Post wire. In-turn I have fixed the problem, but now just have to worry about over loading the new power supply, any idea's on if overloading will be an issue?

I was contemplating just mounting a permanent push button start to replace the cranking of the key, at least it would have been permanent until I could afford to throw large amounts of $$ into having the dealer chase the broken wires. I did call the dealer to ask how they would remedy the situation, they said they would run run new wires and never even look for the broken ones.... That's great but if I only have ONE broken one right now, and they replace it, I'm thinking I'll have good odds of other wires wearing and causing who know what kind of issues later on.....

[Blk Mamba]

I've been twice, about $400 the first time, and $500 (including flatbed tow) the second. My mechanic opened the harnesses, and ran new wires, both times, ( one issue was due to bad repair in the body shop). This mech placed second in the nation in Fords National contest. I just think what mods I could have if it weren't for this. Don't leave the wire in the harness, any thing can happen, and I don't want to read about a fire. Please.

...best wishes to you , wife, and new baby....

[MinnesotaMuscle]

If I left the old wire in the harness I would cut both ends so it would be a dead wire completely... Plus making notes in the owners manual of what was cut, why and what color wire was used to replace it... ya never know when I'm going to need to remember that tid bit of info....

BTW how is everyone getting at this bundle of wires without tearing down that half of the engine?!? I really am amazed at the lack of accessibility in that area....

[Blk Mamba]

I didn't ask, but i think that you can loosen the wiring harness from the firewall and move it, to access it.

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Really??? I'll dig back into it in the morning and see what I can find.

[Zack]

Did you check the connection at the fuse box (engine compartment) where you lift that little cover off and there is the 10mm nut holding the power wire in place?

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Did you check the connection at the fuse box (engine compartment) where you lift that little cover off and there is the 10mm nut holding the power wire in place? Yep solid as can be.... Its in the ignition loop....



And now I'm trying to figure out how does the power go from the ignition switch to the underhood fuse box? By looking at the diagram I can only think of two wires, which would be the ONLY two that get power supplied to them when the ignition switch is in the "start" position.

Red/lightblue (STA)
OR
LargeGreen/Violet (I2)

They leave the switch but I can't seem to find them coming into the underhood fuse box.... Anyone have a diagram for the underhood fuse box to figure out which wire it is? Here I thought it would be easy and it would go to one of the three "ignition" fuse's or the "ignition" Relay. But nope, none of the wires matched, and I ran a continuity test from the two wires mentioned above that are supplied power to the fuses/relay and nothing....

now I'm lost again....idea's?

[Zack]

Maybe the problem is in the shifter sensor :dunno:

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Yea I'm not sure anymore, all I know is there going to induce the wife EARLY Monday morning, so I had to come up with something. I just took and found the the heavy gauged wire that comes off the Ignition switch, that is supplied power ONLY when in the crank position and tired into there and ran a wire to the disconnect boot. Which goes down to the "S" post on the starter solenoid. So in turn the car works like normal I've just found an alternative power source.

I've started it about a dozen times and gone for a 20min trip and all seems to be fine. In a month once things warm up I'll remove the wire and put it back to normal and let the dealership figure it out... But for the time being this will suffice.

[Blk Mamba]

...boy, or girl..., one of each?

[MinnesotaMuscle]

We have two boys, and this one we figured we'd leave for a surprise! Should be interesting...

[Blk Mamba]

have fun, with the new baby, and the dealership is your best bet, they will guarantee their work.

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Hey I guarantee my work too, just not sure what....

[MinnesotaMuscle]

Anyhow, to sum this endeavor up a little for the next person who walks this path...

I spent the day trying to figure out how the ignition switch was connected to the fuse block under the hood, being that fuse block is what supplies the starter...

I found two wires that leave the back of the ignition switch that only were given power when in the start position. One being a large green with violet stripe, and the other being a medium red with light blue stripe. Both wires I traced back to the fuse box under the dash. From there the green/violet wire went threw the fuse and off to the radio I believe. Same thing with the red/lightblue wire, it went to the fuse block under the dash and left as a small brown wire with a pink stripe towards the Transmission Range Sensor.

I then trace out the wire that comes from the "S" Post on the starter solenoid goes from the solenoid to the disconnect boot on the passenger fender, then to the ignition switch relay, located in the fuse box under the hood. Funny the three fuses under the hood, 101, 112, and 115 all had all time power, even when the relay was removed.

I'll re-update this if I tear back into it which I might, or at the very least when the issue is found and corrected.... If you have the same problem as I, may god have mercy on you....

[MinnesotaMuscle]

I've been thinking about this more and more. For a long time there I thought the power originated at the Transmission Range Control and then to the underhood fuse block, then to the ignition switch, then to the underhood fuse block and finally off to the starter. But I now realized that was all backwards. Thanks to laryo340 for the diagram...

Power comes from the battery to the underhood fuse block to the fuse 101 (30A), then leaves on a yellow wire and Y's, one branch going to the ignition relay where it dead-ends and waits until the curcut is complete, which will come into play later on down the path. But finally it will end up going to the starter solenoid post "S".

Now the other side on the "Y" goes to the ignition switch. When the key moves the ignition switch to the start position (#3 position) the power then leaves the switch in a red with lightblue striped wire, which goes to the fuse box under the dash to FUSE #9 (5 Amp). It leaves the other side of the fuse in a small brown and pink striped wire, going to the Transmission Range Sensor. From there the Range sensor tells it that, yes the vehicle is in 'park' or 'neutral' and allows the power to continue.

FROM THERE, the wire leaves as a white and pink wire and goes all the way back to the underhood fuse block, where it ties BACK into the ignition switch relay!!!! When the power comes back into the relay, it throws the relay bridge and allows the current to flow from the initially one side of the 'Y', from the origin of the power, back when it left the underhood fuse block on the yellow wire talked about above. Anyhow by making the bridge and allowing current to pass threw the relay, the current then continues to travel, down to the "S" Post on the starter, finally completing the circuit..........


Now that I have a good idea of the concept I think I will tear back into it tomorrow and do more testing.... Oww the funn...

[larryo340]

Your welcome !! and good luck with finding your problem. If you need any other diagrams let me know :)