Factory Crate Engine - Prep or Drop In ? ! ?

[VictorCrown]

Hi Guys,

I'm new to this forum although I've been active in both the Mustang and Crown Vic forums for years.

My factory crate Marauder engine - fully dressed - is arriving next week and guys over in the Crownvic.net forum told me that before plunking it into the engine bay I should first change the timing chains and tensioners.

This seems kinda whacky to do to a brand new factory engine, but would it be smarter if these are weak spots? It will only take a couple of hours of labor with the engine out of the car.

Thanks for giving me your ideas, advice or opinions. :cool:

Vic

[Pops]

Why did they tell you that? What are you intalling it in? Unless you are building a Blower motor that is very high horse power I see no reason to change those parts.

Welcome to the site! Tell us what you are trying to do with your car.:)

[ImpalaSlayer]

that makes no sence.

[FordNut]

Those aren't the weak points. Makes no sense.

[Zack]

Most stock Marauder engines have plastic Timing chain tensioners that will leak down over night, causing the dreaded cold start rattle.
I recently swapped out my plastic versions to the updated Steel units and sure as *****, cold start rattle went bye bye. :up:

[Georges93LX]

He's putting the new KarKraft Marauder engine into a '93 Crown Vic. I told him to upgrade the tensioners while the engine was out. It's going to be a Biatch to put in the car and it would be a bigger Biatch to have to pull the engine back out. The is very little room to work on the engine in the car. It will look something like this.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722640/fullsize/cobravic11.jpghttp://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722641/fullsize/cobravic12.jpg

[Pops]

I have been thru the transplant you guys are doing! Good luck with it!:)

[FordNut]

Most stock Marauder engines have plastic Timing chain tensioners that will leak down over night, causing the dreaded cold start rattle.
I recently swapped out my plastic versions to the updated Steel units and sure as *****, cold start rattle went bye bye. :up:

Didn't realize that, all 3 of the ones I've disassembled had the steel tensioners.

[rayjay]

Change the oil pump.

[O's Fan Rich]

Most stock Marauder engines have plastic Timing chain tensioners that will leak down over night, causing the dreaded cold start rattle.
I recently swapped out my plastic versions to the updated Steel units and sure as *****, cold start rattle went bye bye. :up:

Marked down that little tidbit......

[SID210SA]

Some one needs to clean their engine bay!!

[babbage]

He's putting the new KarKraft Marauder engine into a '93 Crown Vic. I told him to upgrade the tensioners while the engine was out. It's going to be a Biatch to put in the car and it would be a bigger Biatch to have to pull the engine back out. The is very little room to work on the engine in the car. It will look something like this.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722640/fullsize/cobravic11.jpghttp://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722641/fullsize/cobravic12.jpg

I've changed the tensioners on my old P71 which was a TWO VALVE motor, did all the work myself. Yep they were worn at around 100K there was even a Ford TSB on it.

I didn't think there was an issue with tensioners on a 4V motor. Besides with the engine brand new the tensioners won't even start to be worn until 100K.. George there is plenty of room once you remove the fan shroud...

Also worn tensioners have nothing to do with oil draining out of the heads.

[babbage]

Most stock Marauder engines have plastic Timing chain tensioners that will leak down over night, causing the dreaded cold start rattle.
I recently swapped out my plastic versions to the updated Steel units and sure as *****, cold start rattle went bye bye. :up:


It's a piece of plastic - a bad anti-drain valve in an oil filter is what causes a cold start rattle OR if the guides (plastic) have *already* been eaten through by the timing chains you will have metal on metal in which case you would hear a grinding sound until oil was pumped up to the heads and down into the chain/tensioner area.

Otherwise that makes no sense to me. Please explain it.

[W4LTD]

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722641/fullsize/cobravic12.jpg

What's with all these "CAUTION FAN" devices I see on occasion? My car doesn't seem to have one... :P

[justbob]

I'm gonna try and make a video later, but mine has a terrible cold start up noise that i'd like an opinion on.

[babbage]

I'm gonna try and make a video later, but mine has a terrible cold start up noise that i'd like an opinion on.


Are you using an FL-820s filter??

[babbage]

Bump! Tensioners do not cause oil to leak out of the heads.

Zack, George, Fordnut anyone????

[Zack]

Plastic tensioners have a thin seal on them that blow out, where as the metal pieces do not.
Ask any Ford Tech that knows anything and they will tell you they have a known issue for causing cold start rattles.

[babbage]

Plastic tensioners have a thin seal on them that blow out, where as the metal pieces do not.
Ask any Ford Tech that knows anything and they will tell you they have a known issue for causing cold start rattles.


What? I'm talking about timing chain tensioners, really just a fancy spring and a rounded cylindar that push against guides that keep the chains taught - so they are not too loose. In the picture below we see that the plastic guides have failed - the chains are eating into the metal arms. Under the arms we see a tensioner.

What am I missing. Please post a picture.

http://www.crownvic.net/bok/TIMINGCHAINGUIDES/timing5of11.jpg

[FordNut]

The tensioner is connected to oil pressure. There are 2 different types, the early ones are all steel.

[babbage]

The tensioner is connected to oil pressure. There are 2 different types, the early ones are all steel.

Do you have a picture? When I bought new tensioners for the timing chains above for my old 2v engine -- it was just a small piece that has a spring in it. Two bolts and its on, it has a spring in it that pushes against the guides that in turn snug the chains up.

I guess the 4v tensioners are radically different then. Sorry I guess I'm just ignorant. I thought they were similar/identical.

[FordNut]

You just posted the picture. There are holes on the backside of what you're describing that connect to pressurized oil from the heads...

[VictorCrown]

He's putting the new KarKraft Marauder engine into a '93 Crown Vic. I told him to upgrade the tensioners while the engine was out. It's going to be a Biatch to put in the car and it would be a bigger Biatch to have to pull the engine back out. The is very little room to work on the engine in the car. It will look something like this.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722640/fullsize/cobravic11.jpghttp://www.supermotors.net/getfile/722641/fullsize/cobravic12.jpg
Hi George,

Thanks for weighing in here - the engine is on its way so it shouldn't be too long. I figured there'd probably be some extra advice in this forum from guys with the 4-valve engine. That way I'll get it right the first time without having to pull the engine over and over... ;)

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Why did they tell you that? What are you intalling it in? Unless you are building a Blower motor that is very high horse power I see no reason to change those parts.

Welcome to the site! Tell us what you are trying to do with your car.:)
Hi John,

Thanks for the warm greeting and for tolerating a mutant who doesn't really have an original marauder. I did want one when they came out, but instead I got a Mustang GT when the '05 model hit the scene. So I'm addicted to power, as most of you guys here.

After getting loads of helpful advice from Crownvic.net forum members about performance mods for the 2-valve 4.6 in my Crown Vic, I stupidly blew my engine, first running without oil and sinking a rod, then driving more and losing both timing chains before blowing the head gasket and filling the road with steam.

To lessen the heartache, it's a good idea to turn drama into romance - by fitting the old gal with a spanking brand new Marauder engine. :burnout:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

that makes no sence.
Hi Impala Slayer,

You'll see others here who have explained what mods might make sense before installing the engine. By the way, I noticed you've done some handling mods, what sway bars do you recommend? :banana2:

Cheers,

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Those aren't the weak points. Makes no sense.
Hi FordNut,

Gotta agree with you: Makes no sense. But I'm referring to your Sig:

$1800 and it was worse than when he started! :confused:

Can you fill me in - I read lots of your posts and could never figure that one out. :beer:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Most stock Marauder engines have plastic Timing chain tensioners that will leak down over night, causing the dreaded cold start rattle.
I recently swapped out my plastic versions to the updated Steel units and sure as *****, cold start rattle went bye bye. :up:
Hi Zack,

How did you know which version you had, can you tell from the production year or engine number - or do you have to open it up? :help:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Change the oil pump.
Hi Ray Jay,

What gives with the stock oil pump? Does it fail or just not pump enough oil thru? I'm not planning on installing a blower anytime soon, at least not until my son gets his learner's permit. :beatnik:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Some one needs to clean their engine bay!!
Hi Sid,

That's not my car. It is the same year, mine is slightly darker green and was lucky to wind up nights in a garage. Still did run the car some 85k miles in 16 years. It's a sleeper. :sleepy:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

I have been thru the transplant you guys are doing! Good luck with it!:)
Hi John,

You can imagine that I'm really happy not to be the first one down this path. I know things can get complicated. Can you run me down a short list of what to avoid doing at all cost, and what to definitely not forget to do?

The plan is:

- change tensioners if required
- change oil pump if required
- change torque converter gasket if required
- remove original engine mounts and use better marauder mounts
- install after market pulleys if recommended
- upgrade fuel injection pump if recommended
- install spacer if recommended
- DROP IN ENGINE
- reinstall original Crown Vic harness and sensors
- swap EECIV OBDII chip for a custom SCT chip - voiding extra Marauder sensors not connected to computer
- taking car to dyno bench
- installing second fully custom tuned SCT chip

TIA for letting me know what's missing or NUTS ? :stupid:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

It's a piece of plastic - a bad anti-drain valve in an oil filter is what causes a cold start rattle OR if the guides (plastic) have *already* been eaten through by the timing chains you will have metal on metal in which case you would hear a grinding sound until oil was pumped up to the heads and down into the chain/tensioner area.

Otherwise that makes no sense to me. Please explain it.
Hi Babbage,

I was driving when my tensioners (2-valve 4.6 with 85k miles) rattled their way into the bottom of the engine. So I guess I sort of know what it sounds like... :lol:

They just rattled louder and louder, like loose bicycle chains, until they snapped in a nasty metallic crash sound that was like running over a metal rail. Then it was a 4 cylinder drive until the other chain broke loose. :bigcry:

Filled all the lanes of the highway toll gates with white smoke or steam, so nobody could see anything anywhere on the road. Limped the car a couple miles further to a place to leave it stranded for towing. :eek:

So you can BET that if there's any chance of repeating such a Master Performance on a new Marauder engine - I'd rather swap them tensioners!

[FordNut]

Hi Ray Jay,

What gives with the stock oil pump? Does it fail or just not pump enough oil thru? I'm not planning on installing a blower anytime soon, at least not until my son gets his learner's permit. :beatnik:

Vic

There have been a few instances of oil pump failure, the gears are made of powdered metal and they shatter. The Melling replacement pump has billet gears. As long as the timing cover is off, might as well replace it.

[Zack]

There have been a few instances of oil pump failure, the gears are made of powdered metal and they shatter. The Melling replacement pump has billet gears. As long as the timing cover is off, might as well replace it.

Tell me how you would you would replace the oil pump without the engine out? :confused:

[FordNut]

Tell me how you would you would replace the oil pump without the engine out? :confused:

I wouldn't. I guess you could do it, but the crossmember would have to be dropped to pull the oil pan. He's talking about pulling the timing cover and changing tensioners before installing the motor. The "timing cover removal with engine in the car" subject is a different thread...

[rayjay]

VictorCrown, the oil pump is the weak link in the rotating gear on the MM engine. Oil pump failure has caused/contributed to a number of engine failures. As FordNut said, use the Melling pump and you'll never have to worry about it. If my engine is ever out of the vehicle I will be changing it out.

[babbage]

Hi Babbage,

I was driving when my tensioners (2-valve 4.6 with 85k miles) rattled their way into the bottom of the engine. So I guess I sort of know what it sounds like... :lol:

They just rattled louder and louder, like loose bicycle chains, until they snapped in a nasty metallic crash sound that was like running over a metal rail. Then it was a 4 cylinder drive until the other chain broke loose. :bigcry:

Filled all the lanes of the highway toll gates with white smoke or steam, so nobody could see anything anywhere on the road. Limped the car a couple miles further to a place to leave it stranded for towing. :eek:

So you can BET that if there's any chance of repeating such a Master Performance on a new Marauder engine - I'd rather swap them tensioners!


Hi Victor crown! Sorry bout that buddy. I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about with a brand new engine.

It's not that hard to do later on! I know I replaced my tensioners myself.
I wrote a BOK (body of knowledge) article how I did it complete with pictures part numbers and Ford service manual diagrams. This may be of help to you if you *really* feel the need to do it before it's installed. Here is the link.

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1420276#Post1420276


I guess the valve covers would be a LOT easier to take off when your new motor isn't in the car.

If I were you I'd focus on the install - for me - that would be a hard enough job in itself. Good luck with it - I tell you I love the 4V motor, it's sooo much nicer than a 2v. You should have a real fun car when you are done.

Keep us posted!

[babbage]

VictorCrown, the oil pump is the weak link in the rotating gear on the MM engine. Oil pump failure has caused/contributed to a number of engine failures. As FordNut said, use the Melling pump and you'll never have to worry about it. If my engine is ever out of the vehicle I will be changing it out.

Make sure its a billet Melling pump. I'm not sure if all Mellings are billet - however I've heard that Billet is the best way to go. There are some really nice windage trays too that you can install - you might even pick up 10HP just from doing that. (while you are in there) Look at MMR - modular mustang racing.

[babbage]

There have been a few instances of oil pump failure, the gears are made of powdered metal and they shatter. The Melling replacement pump has billet gears. As long as the timing cover is off, might as well replace it.

duh - didn't read your post. I'm glad you also agree that billet is the best.
Except for perhaps a cryogen heat treated melling billet. lol

I've seen you like to cryo parts.

[CKMustangCobra]

Install an evenflow cooling kit before engine install.

[VictorCrown]

There have been a few instances of oil pump failure, the gears are made of powdered metal and they shatter. The Melling replacement pump has billet gears. As long as the timing cover is off, might as well replace it.
Hi Brian,

Thanks for the explanation of your Sig. :cool:

I'll make sure I change the oil pump when I'm in there, do you know what model is best? Otherwise I'll just contact Melling by phone with the engine reference after wrapping my heard around their catalog.

Cheers,

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Hi Victor crown! Sorry bout that buddy. I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about with a brand new engine.

It's not that hard to do later on! I know I replaced my tensioners myself.
I wrote a BOK (body of knowledge) article how I did it complete with pictures part numbers and Ford service manual diagrams. This may be of help to you if you *really* feel the need to do it before it's installed. Here is the link.

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1420276#Post1420276


I guess the valve covers would be a LOT easier to take off when your new motor isn't in the car.

If I were you I'd focus on the install - for me - that would be a hard enough job in itself. Good luck with it - I tell you I love the 4V motor, it's sooo much nicer than a 2v. You should have a real fun car when you are done.

Keep us posted!
Hi Babbage,

Thanks for the encouragement.

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Install an evenflow cooling kit before engine install.
Hi CK,

My old engine has the towing cooling kit, thought I could try to adapt it to the Marauder engine?

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Hi Victor crown! Sorry bout that buddy. I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about with a brand new engine.

It's not that hard to do later on! I know I replaced my tensioners myself.
I wrote a BOK (body of knowledge) article how I did it complete with pictures part numbers and Ford service manual diagrams. This may be of help to you if you *really* feel the need to do it before it's installed. Here is the link.

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1420276#Post1420276


I guess the valve covers would be a LOT easier to take off when your new motor isn't in the car.

If I were you I'd focus on the install - for me - that would be a hard enough job in itself. Good luck with it - I tell you I love the 4V motor, it's sooo much nicer than a 2v. You should have a real fun car when you are done.

Keep us posted!
Hi Babbage,

Thanks for the encouragement. :D

Regarding the windage tray, I think FordNut put in a Canton unit - should do the trick?
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5491/ppuser/253

Found it here for eighty bucks - extra hp included:
Canton Windage tray #: CAN20939 $79.95
http://shop.holcombmotorsports.com/product.sc;jsessionid=4DF12705 64CA8F462F49797F37BEFB93.qscst rfrnt03?categoryId=74&productId=1008

Also, there's only one Melling oil pump suited to the 4.6 DOHC, #10227 with screen #335S unless their recent unit for the 4.6 24-valve would work better?

Next step will be finding which are the right metal tensioners - don't want to mess up a brand new motor by fiddling with it the wrong way. . .

Vic

[babbage]

Hi Babbage,

Thanks for the encouragement. :D

Regarding the windage tray, I think FordNut put in a Canton unit - should do the trick?
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5491/ppuser/253

Found it here for eighty bucks - extra hp included:
Canton Windage tray #: CAN20939 $79.95
http://shop.holcombmotorsports.com/product.sc;jsessionid=4DF12705 64CA8F462F49797F37BEFB93.qscst rfrnt03?categoryId=74&productId=1008

Also, there's only one Melling oil pump suited to the 4.6 DOHC, #10227 with screen #335S unless their recent unit for the 4.6 24-valve would work better?

Next step will be finding which are the right metal tensioners - don't want to mess up a brand new motor by fiddling with it the wrong way. . .

Vic

I'd look here:

http://www.modularmustangracing.com/

I haven't bought anything from them yet - but they seem to have lots of good parts - take a look.

[rayjay]

FWIW, the Marauder engine has a OEM windage tray. Of course a aftermarket is better.

[CKMustangCobra]

Hi CK,

My old engine has the towing cooling kit, thought I could try to adapt it to the Marauder engine?

Vic

If it accomplishes the same goal I would do it.

[VictorCrown]

I'd look here:
http://www.modularmustangracing.com/

I haven't bought anything from them yet - but they seem to have lots of good parts - take a look.
Hi Babbage,

I'll look there but it will take me some time to check it all out. Thanks for the link.

Vic

[VictorCrown]

FWIW, the Marauder engine has a OEM windage tray. Of course a aftermarket is better.
OH me gosh RayJay - I thought it came without one. I wonder if it is worth the bucks not only to buy it but to pay for install if there's one in the oil pan already...

However I will be getting that billet oil pump installed. :cool:

[VictorCrown]

If it accomplishes the same goal I would do it.
Hi CK,

I looked into is since we last spoke and it's got nothing to do with what's on my car. That Evenflow kit would prevent the passenger side head from overheating by piping coolant into it as well as the other side. Smart and probably worth the money, my mechanic will have to reinstall the cooling anyways on the new engine, but this way he'll have to remove the intake manifold as per Evenflow's instructions here:

http://www.evenflowcooling.com/Marauder2.html

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Here's what I've dug up regarding the timing chain tensioners.

The chief mechanic at my local Lincoln Mercury has worked on quite a few Marauders with loads of miles in them. He says he has yet to see one with timing chain problems. But he doesn't know the way we drive 'em. ;)

The parts manager at the same dealership says that the Marauder engine was only built in '03 and '04 so my new engine is a leftover clearance unit from their old inventory, could be either year. His dealership parts information only gives him one parts reference which is, unless I read the diagram wrong, part #6L266. He says they do not tell him if they are plastic or metal, only that they are a Marauder engine timing chain tensioner.

Any part number info you guys have would help. Otherwise I'll have to skip it, I'm not going to buy them and pay my mechanic to remove the valve covers and front plates, unsealing and resealing gaskets in the process, to replace them with identical parts.... :depress:

He already sort of thinks I'm crazy to be messing with a brand new factory crate engine. He also would like to use the new harness if at all possible, even though I told him it would be an ordeal to splice the wires to match properly.

Kar Kraft is still waiting for my bank cashier's check to clear after depositing it on Friday. They should ship later this week from Michigan which will take a while and give me the time to sort out what to get delivered to the shop. Man, this is interesting even if it is hard to sort out.

Thanks all for your imput. :bows:

Vic

[rayjay]

If you don't know what year it is, be safe and put the left bank cooling kit in. Simple to do when its out of the car and will save you $$$ down the road if it happens to have a left head thats not cooling properly.

[VictorCrown]

If you don't know what year it is, be safe and put the left bank cooling kit in. Simple to do when its out of the car and will save you $$$ down the road if it happens to have a left head thats not cooling properly.
Hi Ray Jay,

I've just written Evenflow, you can't call them to order or pay by card, so I have to wait to find out where to mail my check. Should not take too crazy an amount of time. Cost is within reason when considering that it can save your engine.

Vic

[imorb1994]

Hi CK,

I looked into is since we last spoke and it's got nothing to do with what's on my car. That Evenflow kit would prevent the passenger side head from overheating by piping coolant into it as well as the other side. Smart and probably worth the money, my mechanic will have to reinstall the cooling anyways on the new engine, but this way he'll have to remove the intake manifold as per Evenflow's instructions here:

http://www.evenflowcooling.com/Marauder2.html

Vic

Contact Reinhart and get his Rear engine(not evenflow rear engine) cooling kit. No need to remove the intake.
http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=TB-RECK&Category_Code=5[/URL][URL="http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=CV-RECK&Category_Code=2"] (http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=12345&Category_Code=5)
^^^^this is for the Thunder turd but call him and he will set you up with the correct kit

[CKMustangCobra]

Hi CK,

I looked into is since we last spoke and it's got nothing to do with what's on my car. That Evenflow kit would prevent the passenger side head from overheating by piping coolant into it as well as the other side. Smart and probably worth the money, my mechanic will have to reinstall the cooling anyways on the new engine, but this way he'll have to remove the intake manifold as per Evenflow's instructions here:

http://www.evenflowcooling.com/Marauder2.html

Vic

The kit allowed me to run a tad more timing without pinging in the rear cylinders. Evenflow kit is quality IMO and not that bad to install.... especially if the engine is on a stand on not in the car. I could probably install the kit in 2 hours with the engine out of the car.

Removing the intake is easy.

Reinharts kit looks like it would really suck to install. Looks like you have to maneuver fittings around the transmission and stuff... but if the engine is out of the car it looks easy also. I would do one or the other for sure.

[rayjay]

He already sort of thinks I'm crazy to be messing with a brand new factory crate engine.
Vic

Vic just tell him you are fixing the problems Ford has failed to address as identified by real world users. :coolman:

[VictorCrown]

Contact Reinhart and get his Rear engine(not evenflow rear engine) cooling kit. No need to remove the intake.
http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=TB-RECK&Category_Code=5[/URL][URL="http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=CV-RECK&Category_Code=2"] (http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=12345&Category_Code=5)
^^^^this is for the Thunder turd but call him and he will set you up with the correct kit
Hi Imorb,

That picture sure looks like it might have trouble fitting against the firewall in an already undersized and cramped engine bay... the Evenflow kit looks a little bit more compact in size, probably because it is designed to be fitted by removing the intake manifold to allow it to hug the engine closer.

Possibly, it won't be necessary to remove the intake manifold for the Evenflow if the engine is out of the car. That would be the best of both worlds. I'll email them as they don't like to spend time on the phone...

Vic

[VictorCrown]

The kit allowed me to run a tad more timing without pinging in the rear cylinders. Evenflow kit is quality IMO and not that bad to install.... especially if the engine is on a stand on not in the car. I could probably install the kit in 2 hours with the engine out of the car.

Removing the intake is easy.

Reinharts kit looks like it would really suck to install. Looks like you have to maneuver fittings around the transmission and stuff... but if the engine is out of the car it looks easy also. I would do one or the other for sure.
CK,

Thanks for the info - I assume you installed an Evenflow already? Do you think that the manifolds need to come off, if there isn't an access problem to the back of the engine? I'd think not from the pictures of both kits:

EVENFLOW
http://www.evenflowcooling.com/mm-8.JPG

REINHART
http://www.reinhartperformance.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Cooling%20Mod%20pics%20Big.jpg

[fastblackmerc]

The only thing I'd be concerned with is the Rheinhart kit has plastic fittings.

[justbob]

Wouldn't this be an easier transplant with a Marauder harness and ECM?:dunno:

[VictorCrown]

The only thing I'd be concerned with is the Rheinhart kit has plastic fittings.
Hi Fast Black,

I think the Reinhart kit probably works well but its fittings aren't as beefy although its piping seems larger diameter. But since the hard plastic end fittings to the head casings wind up being the same size it pretty much comes down to the same flow. It seems that the Evenflow is a dedicated cooling mod company whereas Reinhart does lots of other stuff, cooling not being their specialty even if it works well. The Evenflow selling for cheaper with free shipping doesn't hurt.

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Wouldn't this be an easier transplant with a Marauder harness and ECM?:dunno:
Hi Bob,

I'd thought the same, and was ready to buy a more recent ECM. But folks who have done this and other "Restomod" implants seem to think that I'm better off using the original harness and computer. The main reason is that the wiring harnesses require splicing and reconnecting dozens of micro-wires to one another with no surefire method to get them right. :argue:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Hi Guys,

I found an article in Mustang Monthly which mentions on page 2 what material the modular timing chain tensioners are made of. Here's what they say:

"The Modular engine's timing system consists of two chains, two sprockets, two tensioners, two guides, two tensioner arms, and a crank sprocket. Modular engines from '91-'99 have steel chain guides. From '00-up they have plastic guides. Earlier engines have iron tensioners. Later engines have composite tensioners."

http://image.mustangmonthly.com/f/10615414/mump_mod_17_z+ford_overhead_ca m_modular_v8+.jpg

So it looks like this one is going to be easy:

Buy from a Lincoln-Mercury dealer timing chain tensioners for an early DOHC engine.

Which early DOHC modular engine comes closest to ours? The guides will be metal if chosen before 2000, the safest way to wind up with early iron tensioners will be to buy them for the earliest DOHC, namely the Mark VIII ?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. :beer:

Vic

[babbage]

Here is a picture of the lower metal tensioner. This is all you need to replace. Again I think it's foolish to do this now. (new gaskets, new RTV, new crank bolt, more rtv, perhaps a new gasket set for front cover, labor, you might even drop garbage in your oil pan since it'll be exposed for a few hours.) Again -- I've actually done this myself.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/techarticles/images/mustang94-98_v8_46_f13.jpg


Do do it later on (80K-100K) then you can replace the worn guides too!
All you'd need to do is remove the fan shroud and you'd have plenty of room. If leaking tensioners were that prevelant there'd be a TSB on it.

I'd try to focus on actually getting the engine installed and running! That will be a big enough challange right there!
:flamer:

[VictorCrown]

Here is a picture of the lower metal tensioner. This is all you need to replace. Again I think it's foolish to do this now. (new gaskets, new RTV, new crank bolt, more rtv, perhaps a new gasket set for front cover, labor, you might even drop garbage in your oil pan since it'll be exposed for a few hours.) Again -- I've actually done this myself. Do do it later on (80K-100K) then you can replace the worn guides too!

If leaking tensioners were that prevelant there'd be a TSB on it. I'd try to focus on actually getting the engine installed and running! That will be a big enough challange right there!
:flamer:

Thanks for the words of wisdom. It is hard to know exactly what to change for what when everything is brand spanking new and in good shape. As my brother says If it ain't broke - Don't Fix It !

I think I may well restrain the mods to the engine to those which don't requiring replacing all sorts of expensive gaskets and what not else for only a possibility of prevention of potential breakdowns in the long term. After all, I only put 85k miles on the car in 16 years, so who knows when such problems might occur if ever?

So one thing seems easy enough without necessitating any disassembly of the engine: the Evenflow Cooling Kit.

What would have to be taken apart to install a Melling billet Oil Pump?
The engine already has a windage tray so I don't want to bust it open just to improve a bit on something which it already has.

Also, would you recommend installing a Throttle body PHP Intake Spacer Kit from Reinhart Automotive? It just bolts onto the outer accessories so no problem there.

Thanks for the prudential advice! :burnout:

Vic

[burt ragio]

Most stock Marauder engines have plastic Timing chain tensioners that will leak down over night, causing the dreaded cold start rattle.
I recently swapped out my plastic versions to the updated Steel units and sure as *****, cold start rattle went bye bye. :up:

Zack what does a plastic vs steel cam tensionor have to do with oil leak down at cold start up ? I thought the valved oil filters did the trick to prevent that problem ?

[imorb1994]

Also, would you recommend installing a Throttle body PHP Intake Spacer Kit from Reinhart Automotive? It just bolts onto the outer accessories so no problem there.
Vic
It can be bought for less than $100 from www.Karkraft.com (http://www.Karkraft.com)

[burt ragio]

Good luck with you installation. Do the Evenflow cool kit & call it a day. Spend the extra coin on a good radar jammer you will need it.

[Shora]

What would have to be taken apart to install a Melling billet Oil Pump?Vic

If I was you, I would look seriously into this. Do not get lazy or in a hurry. You waited this long.

A bunch of MM went down b/c of the darn oil pump and I don't think you will ever have a better chance to fix this weakness than now, before the engine goes in.

I doubt that you will ever pull the engine out again (since your name is not Zack and you don't do it weekly like he does) and you WILL be happy that you took care of this weak point. If and when my engine comes out, a Melling is going in no doubt.

[VictorCrown]

Zack what does a plastic vs steel cam tensionor have to do with oil leak down at cold start up ? I thought the valved oil filters did the trick to prevent that problem ?
Hi Burt,

Gotta tell me about those valved oil filters, will be wanting the right ones from the start. :cool:

Vic
PS. It'll be interesting to hear what causes that oil leak down at startup.

[VictorCrown]

Good luck with you installation. Do the Evenflow cool kit & call it a day. Spend the extra coin on a good radar jammer you will need it.
Oh Burt,

The Evenflow is going on, still need to know what needs to be unbolted to change the oil pump... :confused:

A Valentine One is in the box awaiting stealth installation along with laser jammers and reflective plate treatment. The old Crown Vic will be a sleeper as it is better to be safe than sorry. :burnout:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

If I was you, I would look seriously into this. Do not get lazy or in a hurry. You waited this long.
A bunch of MM went down b/c of the darn oil pump and I don't think you will ever have a better chance to fix this weakness than now, before the engine goes in.
I doubt that you will ever pull the engine out again (since your name is not Zack and you don't do it weekly like he does) and you WILL be happy that you took care of this weak point. If and when my engine comes out, a Melling is going in no doubt.
Hi Shora,

What would need to get unbolted - just the oil pan or as much as for changing the timing chain tensioners?

Vic

[VictorCrown]

It can be bought for less than $100 from www.Karkraft.com (http://www.Karkraft.com)
Hi Imorb,

Thanks for the tip - I wish I'd known that earlier, I would have asked them to bolt it on for me before shipping the engine... I see it's the same kit as the one sold by Reinhart for quite a bit less cash. Thx!

Vic

[VictorCrown]

So far the only method I found on the web was for Mustangs. :bigcry:


With engine at TDC... Pull the crank pulley, valve cover, chain cover... mark cam gears and timing chains, remove timing chains, remove ign timing trigger gear and crank timing chain gears. Remove oil pump and pickup tube from pump.

http://forums.modulardepot.com/archive/index.php/t-62051.html

Is this pretty much accurate? If so it would mean both timing chain tensioners AND oil pump swap or neither of the above.

Vic

[rayjay]

Not knowing what year the engine was manufactured the cooling mod is a must. Depending on what modds you plan on you could skip the oil pump. If you have even a twinkling idea you may SC in the future, do yourself a favor and do the oil pump. If you are planning on UD pullies, do the oil pump. I've had the PHP spacer for 4 years, ehh, not sure it actually does much without a dyno tune.

[VictorCrown]

Not knowing what year the engine was manufactured the cooling mod is a must. Depending on what modds you plan on you could skip the oil pump. If you have even a twinkling idea you may SC in the future, do yourself a favor and do the oil pump. If you are planning on UD pullies, do the oil pump. I've had the PHP spacer for 4 years, ehh, not sure it actually does much without a dyno tune.
Hi RayJay,

I really noticed a difference with a spacer on the 3 valve Mustang. So I will tend to believe that it does help airflow pattern in combustion. Plus the dyno tune can't be avoided with my custom one-off mutant marauder implant so it will be there also to take the spacer into account.

My old lighter weight 220hp Crown Vic really accelerated fast, with its stock engine - this was mostly due to its really steep geared automatic transmission, steep rear axle ratio, and smallish 15" wheels with far less unsprung weight and especially far less power wasting spinning weight to eat up precious torque. So as this setup remains unchanged and the horsepower will be boosted another hundred ponies with the new engine graft, I don't think I'll really be needing to supercharge if I want to keep the wheels on the ground! :banana2:

So I may just skip the engine opening process and do the upper end add ons of the Evenflow Cooling Kit and at the same time install the PHP Throttle Body Spacer with gasket. I'm sort of starting to see things the same way as my mechanic, who can't believe I went out and bought a brand new crate engine and thinks I'm nuts not to respect that it is a well-made factory finished product ready for reliable use. If one drives normally of course. :burnout:

However, I really did like what Shelby did to the Hertz GT convertible I rented and would want to find out what exactly he did to make it so much fun to drive that I never wanted to stop. The hood was bolted and sealed to avoid tampering and theft, so I don't have a fathom of what is different from my stock GT. Sure wish I could duplicate that mod. :shake: :help:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

I'm wondering if I shouldn't do the cooling/spacer mods once the engine is in the car. The throttle body spacer raises the upper manifold by 3/8" with its gasket and that might be just the amount of space needed to properly close the hood... :mad2:

[burt ragio]

Vic - Great idea a lazar jammer valintine detector & plate cover. Unless you are clocked by air or paced you may be safe. What's the charge for every mile over the limit in your state?
As for the info on oil filters see:Oil Filters Revealed - MiniMopar Resources (http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/reference.html)

[VictorCrown]

Vic - Great idea a lazar jammer valintine detector & plate cover. Unless you are clocked by air or paced you may be safe. What's the charge for every mile over the limit in your state?

Hi Burt,

These are only instruments to help me stay concentrated on driving safety by remaining focused on road conditions, roadside motion and side roads or dirt paths, potential risks around corners or over hills which are very frequent on Vermont roads. This can only be done if you are NOT spending half of your energy concentrating on your speedometer and trembling in fear of being entrapped by over zealous troopers who often hide out in places where there are few real road hazards or risks to life and limb. :flamer:

In Vermont, aside from the Interstate where the State jurisdiction is limited, it is considered CRIMINAL driving to exceed the speed limit by over 30mph. This means over 80 on wide country roads where it presents little risk as well as the identical speed on small windy narrow roads where even with a mighty Mustang it seems over the top. :bandit:

It's comforting to be able to discuss this issue here, as in my usual haunt, the Crownvic.net forums, the large quota of troopers in that group have made it politically incorrect to so much as mention speeding - something quite hypocritical as we all know that not one of them respects the speed limit unless they are so rigid as to generalize to themselves and their mighty steeds legislation designed for lesser cars and lesser drivers. Draw your own conclusions. I think it is mostly because it would create a rift between forum members, those speeding and those trying to nail them. :argue:


As for the info on oil filters see:Oil Filters Revealed - MiniMopar Resources (http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/reference.html)

Regarding filters it seems that that website doesn't want to be held liable for any problems people might have with following advice. For the life of me I wasn't able to find out which filters had good valves and proper quality to use steadfastly on a new engine you want to protect without having to rip it open and swap oil pumps. Here's the section on recommended filters, can anyone decipher it for a no-brainer quality filter easy to find - regardless of cost which is negligible if it protects thousands of dollars of engine? :confused:

Recommended Oil Filters (http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/opinions.html#recommended)

Thanks in advance !

Vic

[rayjay]

Victor Crown, your tech is right, provided you drive "normally", but even then you could fry the left head if it is not cooling properly.

[troop_69_6969]

hey what is the best chip to make more power in my marauder

[VictorCrown]

Victor Crown, your tech is right, provided you drive "normally", but even then you could fry the left head if it is not cooling properly.
Hi Ray,

I appreciate your advice, especially that you recommend either going that extra mile to be safe, or instead driving more moderately to keep the engine healthy.

My car is mostly for road racing in small roads which don't cause that much hardship on an engine if you've got enough torque on tap to keep the car moving at low to mid range rpm. That is why I love the small wheels and steep gearing of my towing setup.

Most of the engine's torque will hit the road, and in Vermont you never push hard for long, because this isn't Idaho, we've got loads of hills, bends and curves which force you to reduce the pace every couple of minutes - if not less when moving fast.

So I need the engine to not be prone to overheating due to frequent hard acceleration, granted that I won't be holding down that pedal without interruption for long periods of time.

I won't be doing any track and, aside from the occasional red light next to a ricer, I won't be playing chicken or doing burnouts.

The cooling setup might just do the trick as long as I find the right oil filter to use in order to reduce the risk of poor oil flow through the engine.

Vic

[rayjay]

Vic, the driving you just described makes it even more imperative you do the cooling mod. The oil pump usually dies from chatter in the crank. Just make sure you get good gas and if you do get a load of bad take it easy on the car until its out of the tank. As far as oil filters, concensous here is the MotorCraft FL820S is the best bang for the buck. There are several threads to search for info on oil filters. You may also consider a relocation kit. Threads on that too.

[VictorCrown]

Vic - What's the charge for every mile over the limit in your state?
Burt,

I can't find any website that tells what the dollar per mile per hour excess of a given speed limit is in Vermont, but I finally found the going rate charged in number of points for the privilege of speeding up to a total of 10 points over a 2-year period leading to license suspension. Here it goes:

6 points for Excessive speed (20 mph or more over the speed limit)

3 points for Exceeding the speed limit

2 points for Speeding (1-10 mph over speed limit)

3 points for Speeding (11-20 mph over speed limit)

5 points for Speeding (21-30 mph over speed limit)

8 points for Speeding (31 or more mph over speed limit)

3 points for Operating a commercial vehicle 15-20 MPH above the limit

2 points for Excessive speed (20 over)

3 points for Violation of interstate regulations (except speeding)

2 points for Excessive speed on interstate (20 mph or more over limit)

2 points for a Commercial vehicle operated at 15 MPH (or more) over the speed limit on an interstate/limited access/controlled access highway

2 points for Speeding on interstate highway (1-19 mph over speed limit)

The following is the best website I've found regarding Vermont DMV driving violations and driver's license information:

http://www.dmv.org/vt-vermont/point-system.php

Cheers :beer:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

hey what is the best chip to make more power in my marauder
Hi Troop,

For my 3-valve Mustang I got the SCT Pro Racer kit which allows to even dial in adjustable cams for better torque at low rpm and more horsies in the upper revs. However, their standard performance tune for the car is really very good and I didn't feel the need yet to redial it. I probably will once I know the guys with the dyno who will be custom burning a chip for my engine management which will be based in a very old EEC IV OBD I system which can't be reprogrammed.

Others here can probably recommend better "bang for the buck" suppliers, but if you want a really reliable well designed chip that is pretty sure to give you results while protecting your engine, the guys at SCT are pros.

Cheers,

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Vic, the driving you just described makes it even more imperative you do the cooling mod. The oil pump usually dies from chatter in the crank. Just make sure you get good gas and if you do get a load of bad take it easy on the car until its out of the tank.
Ray,

That cooling mod is just as good as done - nothing will stop me. The other mods are still up in the air, awaiting hood clearance results and whether they are really indispensible or more like Blue Sky bulletproofing which present the inconvenience of being fairly costly installs plus possibly weakening the reliability of a new engine which might not be properly sealed back up...

By the way, what on earth makes a Crank CHATTER ? :confused:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

As far as oil filters, concensous here is the MotorCraft FL820S is the best bang for the buck. There are several threads to search for info on oil filters. You may also consider a relocation kit. Threads on that too.
Thanks for the shortcut to the consensus, lots of folks with loads of wisdom here in the boards. I'll be that the relocation kit is mostly for the convenience of not having to raise the car and/or turn the front wheels to remove it.

I guess I'll hunt through the threads to find the BEST ENGINE OIL. The guys at my Ford dealership said first to use only mineral oil and only later switch to synthetic due to seal failures with synthetic. Then another one said never do that, only use a special Ford blend of mineral and synthetic. The guys at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership said to keep the original oil for good (changing it of course).

Vic

[rayjay]

Ray,

By the way, what on earth makes a Crank CHATTER ? :confused:

Vic

Detonation, the arch enemy of the MM engine. Always use 91, preferably 93 octane from a station you know.

[VictorCrown]

Detonation, the arch enemy of the MM engine. Always use 91, preferably 93 octane from a station you know.
So THIS is what others have been telling me about detonation! :eek:

It all comes down to bad gas. I'll just have to get her tuned for HI Octane and make sure I find the best. :beatnik:

Won't leaving the car for lengthy periods in storage during long trips also be a problem which could lead to detonation? Could this be what killed my 2-valve engine which sat for 2 years before I started her up? :shake:

Vic

[VictorCrown]

My mechanic has already planned to change the torque converter gasket - should he also change the torque converter? I guess this can always be done without pulling the engine, just the tranny. How can I know what torque converter came with my '93 towing/intercepter CV? Is there some form of identification or tell-tale details? Or isn't this that important of a performance mod? :banana2:

Hey guys, I'm getting good at this. Fetched my own answer in a forum section I hadn't unearthed, thought all the important mechanical stuff was in the Shop Talk area but that is one big Garage here! :cool:


The reason I stated an 04 converter is because of changes they made to that one which make it more durable. The stall is actually the same on all the 11.25in converters from 1993 to current. Darrin

Given that my car is a 1993 interceptor towing clone, it must have the 11.25 already installed: no reason to fiddle with anything but a fresh gasket. :)

Vic

[rayjay]

Vic, the MM engine REQUIRES 91 octane minimum.

[justbob]

I'm gonna try and make a video later, but mine has a terrible cold start up noise that i'd like an opinion on.
Ok, so i'm a little late on the video, but here they are.
YQ2eSXQsp6w
YQ2eSXQsp6w

[imorb1994]

Ok, so i'm a little late on the video, but here they are.

Mine does something similar if not the same, mine kinda sounds like the starter stays engaged for a second or so after starting.
Yet the noise does sound like it comes from the top of the engine.

[VictorCrown]

Ouch guys, Is that what you think may be due to a lousy Ford oil pump not doing its job? :mad2:

[babbage]

Ok, so i'm a little late on the video, but here they are.
YQ2eSXQsp6w
YQ2eSXQsp6w


Can't tell if it's mechanical or not.

Sounds like Vaccume to me. What boost if any does your car make at idle?

[TAKEDOWN]

I got the same exact sound, started this winter!

[VictorCrown]

Here's how my old 2-valve job sounded before going to engine heaven:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/richardoren/th_CrownVicenginetrouble11-2008.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v47/richardoren/?action=view&current=CrownVicenginetrouble1 1-2008.flv)

Any ideas about what happened? Not about to pay for a tear down to diagnose, but don't want the New Marauder engine to go the same way... :stupid:

[justbob]

Mine does something similar if not the same, mine kinda sounds like the starter stays engaged for a second or so after starting.
Yet the noise does sound like it comes from the top of the engine.
I completly agree! It sounds like the starter not shuting down but very hard to tell exactly where its coming from. Like you said, I can hear it quite well under the motor and above!

[justbob]

Can't tell if it's mechanical or not.

Sounds like Vaccume to me. What boost if any does your car make at idle?
It's definately mechanical. Also the boost bypass valve gives no boost at idle.

[VictorCrown]

Ok guys, I can take a hint. Loads of very helpful advice from some fine gentlemen here - for which I thank you hand down. :bows:

I'll be signing off now as the thread's mission has been accomplished with your dedicated forum brotherhood extended even to a Mutant Marauder. :up:

So I'll leave this thread to your care and hope that you'll be able to solve your engine knocking problems.

Best wishes,

Vic

[VictorCrown]

Well folks, it has in fact been a couple more years wait but somehow my patience has been met with a potential installation this month. The very best Speed Shop in Vermont has located a custom fuel system to go from the gas tank to the engine rails in order to ensure delivery despite the different setups on the old Crown Vic and the Marauder/Mach1 engine.


So my spirits are up again and ought to be high as there should be some more news ahead. If any of you know details about the electrical hookup once the swap is done please let me know. From what I recall all you need to do aside from using a new custom SCT chip in the original vintage car computer, is to hook up whatever sensors that old computer is wired up for and leave the other sensor cables unused.


Thanks for any last minute advice !!!


FYI this topic is also being discussed in the Crown Vic forum here:


http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1867699&page=1


Best,

_________________________
Vic