Burning Rubber--Why such differences?

[Smokie]

While reading an original post from NBC Shooter I noticed that there seems to be quite a variation on the subject of burning rubber, for the sake of discussion I will define it as: tires break traction, squeal either hi pitched or low raspy sound on coarse pavement. In my definition there is no smoke. Stab gas pedal from dead stop in drive on level ground (dry of course). Now I believe most bonestock MM. could not break traction at all (mine included).
After the Reinhart programming, Densos and stat with stock gears I have no problem breaking the rears loose including 1-2 shift and slightly on 2-3. I have read some owners say that even after the gears the MM. does not burn rubber, this I find very puzzling; some have commented that the only way to break them free is with a S/C.

What do you guys say? Are you breaking them free? or not?

PS. I know burning rubber lowers (correction RAISES) ET's--However it is an indicator of available low end torque.

[duhtroll]

I can with stage I on 1-2 and 2-3.

-A

[Marauderman]

Interesting ---to achieve such a feat--you need a long straight place to run I would think--and the only place around me has been the on-ramp of the Interstate--where I have had to come to a stop ( of course when no one was behind me) and when clear to run and have the hammer lane--PUNCH IT and hold it down to 130 MPH.....to be honest....---with all that was going on--don't remember if it broke loose or not---

So ---where do you try yours out at----to get this determination --after all--you have to go thru the gears to get the "chirp" or "squeel"....Tom

[Macon Marauder]

I can "get a wheel" from a standing start - sometimes. I have also "scratched second" a few times shifting manually. (Don't do that anymore) When the trans shifts itself I don't get anything on the 1-2 or 2-3.

Some mods - but no 4.10 (see below)

[BillyGman]

until adding the Stallion torque converter, and now I can smoke em from a dead punch(NO brake). Just read the thread I've started in this forum about the Stallion Converter if you want a detailed description;)

[67435animal]

I cannot in the MM. Now the Corvette and the 442 are very different stories. The 442 will spin the tires from a dead stop and will deliver a major chirp between 1-2 (TH-400). If the MM did that, I'd be smiling more and buying tires.

Bob

[Paul T. Casey]

At first, when the car was new, it would barely squeak off the line. As the miles started to add up , it got better. Showing off for the local high school gearheads lastnight (they hang out across the road from a fast food fish joint) the rears spun squealed, scratched, and chirpped from a rolling start. Not sure how much is break-in (I just hit 36K), and how much is computer adjusting to my driving style. Don't even know if computers even do that. I do know that my MM does get better with age, so far. No performance mods, yet.

[JET]

Originally posted by Smokie
PS. I know burning rubber lowers ET's.

Smokie,
Burning rubber does not lower ET's it raises it. If your wheels are spinning your not going anywhere. In order to lower ET's you need traction. If you read about some of the S/C cars here the biggest problem they have is getting the rubber to stick. Now if your at the track and you punch your car and the wheels spin and immeaditly catch then you will cross the starting beem at a higher RPM (whowever your reaction time will suck) but chances are your wheels will continue spin past the starting beem. This will raise your ET. If you go WOT with no wheel spin you will get from the start to the finish faster because you are transfering the cars power to the road vs spinning in place.

When you see people doing a burnout/ power brake before a run it for one of the following reasons:
- If they have drag tires it is to heat the tires up and to clean them off. Both of these things will help the tires stick better. The better the tires stick to the track the lower the ET's.
- If they have street tires it is to clean the water of the treads after they go through the wet box. If you don't get the tires wet it is to look cool. Street tires do not need to be warmed up.
-I think there is something else but I forget.

Despite the facts I still love to power brake. My car will always bust loose if there is any moisture on the road. I can also get it squeal on dry roads but I usually feather the throttle then punch it.

I hope this helps. Anyone want to challenge my response please feel free.

[duhtroll]

Mine got a lot better after 5K miles and the dyno tune. I can squeal from a start, and on the 1-2, 2-3 shifts. We have a lot of wide open roads here in IA, so I get the chance to test the tires frequently. I like watching a car come into view on the bridge next to my on-ramp on the way home from school, and passing it before I merge, and not even remotely cutting it off - I'm a good 8 to 10 car lengths ahead by the time I get to the end of the long ramp.

What a car.

Of course, when they see me do this lots of them slow down thinking I am a cop pulling someone over, but that's their problem. :lol:

Thanks,
-A

[Macon Marauder]

I'm pretty sure Smokie meant to say "raises ET's." If you read the whole sentence it only makes sense to say "raises"...

[TAF]

Originally posted by marauder2306

When you see people doing a burnout/ power brake before a run it for one of the following reasons:
- If they have drag tires it is to heat the tires up and to clean them off. Both of these things will help the tires stick better. The better the tires stick to the track the lower the ET's.
- If they have street tires it is to clean the water of the treads after they go through the wet box. If you don't get the tires wet it is to look cool. Street tires do not need to be warmed up.
-I think there is something else but I forget.


The thing you forgot, John...was..
so you can be like Marty and spend $900 on pictures of himself doing the burnouts...:D

[Marauderman]

Here we go...............Martyo should be checking in real soon on this one after returning from lawyers work and seeing the computer 's high temp alarm!!!! :lol: .................

[Paul T. Casey]

What is "lawyer's work?" perhaps an oxymoron?

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by Paul T. Casey
What is "lawyer's work?" perhaps an oxymoron?

No no, things like 'phone calls' 'pencils' 'courier charges' 'goodwill'. At least that's what my wife's divorce lawyer itemized on his expense list. :mad: Sorry Marty, what kind of a lawyer uses $600.00 in pencils? :confused:
Let's not pick on Marty now. Let's pick on RF!:lol:

[LincMercLover]

Mine spins 'em pretty good from a dead stop, even on concrete. As for chirps or loosing traction during shifts, those won't happen with the tranny shifting itself.

As far as Marty's burnouts (and Todd's for that matter!), I'm sad to say that I was a bit ashamed with their tire conserving burnouts at the line. I woulda though these two for sure would've gotten a LITTLE hectic with the burnouts!

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by marauder2306
Smokie,
Burning rubber does not lower ET's it raises it. If your wheels are spinning your not going anywhere. In order to lower ET's you need traction. If you read about some of the S/C cars here the biggest problem they have is getting the rubber to stick. Now if your at the track and you punch your car and the wheels spin and immeaditly catch then you will cross the starting beem at a higher RPM (whowever your reaction time will suck) but chances are your wheels will continue spin past the starting beem. This will raise your ET. If you go WOT with no wheel spin you will get from the start to the finish faster because you are transfering the cars power to the road vs spinning in place.

When you see people doing a burnout/ power brake before a run it for one of the following reasons:
- If they have drag tires it is to heat the tires up and to clean them off. Both of these things will help the tires stick better. The better the tires stick to the track the lower the ET's.
- If they have street tires it is to clean the water of the treads after they go through the wet box. If you don't get the tires wet it is to look cool. Street tires do not need to be warmed up.
-I think there is something else but I forget.

Despite the facts I still love to power brake. My car will always bust loose if there is any moisture on the road. I can also get it squeal on dry roads but I usually feather the throttle then punch it.

I hope this helps. Anyone want to challenge my response please feel free. Marauder 2306 I concur.

[Smokie]

Sorry about the "burning tires lowers ET's" I meant to say RAISES :o . Also Tom let me explain about the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts, When I leave it in drive: it burns rubber on take off ONLY. When I shift manually at 4800 RPMS 1-2 breaks loose, the MANUAL 2-3 shift at 4800 RPMS is only about 75 MPH and I do get a slight chirp. Sorry about the screw ups, this is what I get when I post while on my lunch break and I"m in a hurry to get back to work.:lol: :lol: :lol:

[JET]

Smokie,
Well in that case never mind.

[studio460]

1. Smokie: You took the words right out of my mouth! I don't understand the wide variances reported here either!

2. I don't care about ETs or quarter-miles! The 17-year old kid in me just wants to lay some tracks!

3. Is there that much variance on build efficiencies?

4. I know I'm handicapped from the get go by California's crappy 91-octane "premium" fuel . . . are other California 2003 Marauder owners with only Stage I/FordChip tunes breaking traction? I believe I saw a post somewhere from someone claiming to do it on our gas.

5. To me, the definition of "burning rubber" is spinning tires on-command on dry asphalt on level ground WITHOUT torque-braking for a distance of like at least few feet.

[jerrym3]

I always thought that some burnout from the lights was good because it keeps the rpms up.

[Paul T. Casey]

NBC, I believe that the "build efficiency variances" would probably astound most people. In any manufacturing process there are tolerances. Add to that management harassment of QC functions, and I'll bet that from high to low on just our MM line of cars there is a 15% difference in HP from best to worst right off the production line.

[studio460]

I bet your right on the money in that estimate, Paul . . .

[Ross]

I can get a little tire spin from a dead punch with the modest mods listed below. Never have noticed any chirp at 1-2 shift.

[Mark McQuaide]

At 16,000 mine (bone stock) seems to be getting stronger all the time. It will break loose from a standing start on blacktop and gets a great bark on a manual 1-2 shift. 3000-6000 RPM in second gear on a back road is a hell of a rush.

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by jerrym3
I always thought that some burnout from the lights was good because it keeps the rpms up.

maybe from an excitement or a show-off perspective, but not for a race. Spinning the tires will hurt your ET in the quartermile, and will especially hurt your 0-60ft and 0-60 MPH times.

[darebren]

the 4.10's help. In a fresh blacktop parking lot i can get both wheels to leave track 5 feet long from dead stop, no brake. If i turn right or left during it, i can get a full 360 power turn going no problem with alot of rubber on the ground. On concrete, at stop lights i can still always get a chirp. if manual shift, can always get chirp from 1 to 2 anywhere. If it is wet outside, i almost go sideways on the 1-2 shift even if trans shifts itself, kinda scary! (but fun).

I got the gears on day 2 of ownership, and have noticved that at 7k miles the car is completely different than it was when new. even with gears when new, could not really get much action going.

[BillyGman]

has more to do w/the tires beginning to wear than it does w/the engine actually getting more power. When my Marauder was in it's first 1500 miles, the tires wouldn't spin as much, and would be much louder when they did spin. But after several thousand hard miles, the tires spun easier (even before the 4.56 gears were added) and didn't squeal nearly as much during gear chirps and off the line spin. They just don't bite like they used to, and it has nothing to do w/the car being faster.

[Smokie]

NBC, I know exactly how you feel, is not about wearing out the rears burnning rubber...is about how good it feels to know that you can . The variances that Paul mentions are valid and it may explain some of the differences, maybe the fuel in California is part of it, in Fla. I use 93 octane Amoco and it may allow for a more agressive spark advance in programming, also I don't know if you are using the Denso plugs, they made a noticeable difference in my throttle response. I don't think my car is in that upper end of the quality curve; maybe in the middle. If you have the time, check out my very first post on this forum over a year ago; you might find what I was thinking back then interesting.:) :):)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=297&highlight=smokie

[studio460]

Originally posted by Smokie
NBC, I know exactly how you feel, it's not about wearing out the rears burning rubber. . . it's about how good it feels to know that you can
EXACTLY! Well, and . . . I really like the NOISE burnouts make.

[mroder]

I bought my MM used with 3000ml on, it it now has 6200ml and will break loose the tires 4 out of 5 times and I'm talking side ways (not using brakes). It seemed that as soon as it hit 6000ml it turned into my old Bullitt that I traded. I think it all depends on how you break it in.
When I bought the MM I traced it and found it was a Ford company car previously.
Maybe they did something to it.....

Anyways its fun.
300A
NO MODS

[chapel1]

I use Amoco 93 octane and I like to light them rip.That beining said I have lauched three basic ways .1)OD off and punch it while in drive.Usually will get some squel,but not always.2)Drop it to first a go and then shift to second I will lay a nice patch and get a chrip going in to second.3)Brake torque always works when you just have to be sure it can still do it.
Smokie I can never really predict how my car is going to take off?I usually follow program(1).And sometimes just sometimes I catch it just right I swear it trys to torque alittle the side?

[GodOSpeed]

Billy G I think hit the nail on the head. @14k These tires are just about slicks! The 2-3 shift if you watch the speedo damn near pulls to 85 before it settles back in.
As far as NBC is concerned GOOD LUCK getting those big monster skins to burn! A long time ago they used to spray ?dishsoap? & water mixture on and light em up!

[sailsmen]

It's 64* out and hitting it from a dead stop results in 2.5 to 3 second squeal every time.

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by GodOSpeed
Billy G I think hit the nail on the head. @14k These tires are just about slicks!

Well I'm glad that someone was paying attention, cuz I think evryone else is missing it here. I can tell you that even at 5K the back tires on my MM still look decent, however they don't have the traction capability that they had at 1K, nor do they squeal as loud as they used to either. but they do spin a lot easier, and I don't believe that has anything to do with, nor is it an indication of the engine having more power now at 5K miles than it did at 1K:rolleyes:

[Smokie]

BillyG If you say that your car did not perform any better at 5k than it did when you first bought it I believe you, my experience with my car was different; the car performed better after 5k than when I got it with 11 miles. At about 6800 miles Dennis programmed my PCM and changed stat, was out of Denso's so I drove home and installed Denso's about a week later. The car right away was capable of burning rubber and my tires had an extra 250 miles. I don't think that the extra 250 miles on the tires is the reason I was able to burn rubber. My car right now has almost 7900 miles and the tires actually don't look any different than when I bought the car, I do agree with you that the older they get and as the thread wears out the won't be as sticky as when brand new. :)

[Agent M79]

2004 Mercury Marauder (stock - only cosmetic mods)
Brought to normal cruising temperature.
1175 Miles
Traction Control: OFF
93 Octane, just under 1/2 tank
Outside temperature: 56F
Road surface: Clean, dry, asphalt. Evening, so likely coolish.

Pass 1: No chirp or spin from stop or 1-2 or 2-3 shift.
Pass 2: No chirp or spin from stop or 1-2 or 2-3 shift.
Pass 3: No chirp or spin from stop or 1-2 or 2-3 shift.
Pass 4: 1/2 second chirp/hop, no chirp at 1-2 or 2-3 shift.
Pass 5: No chirp or spin from stop or 1-2 or 2-3 shift.

[MI2QWK4U]

Thanks to Uncle Jerry and his dastardly Trilogy blower, I dont have any more rubber left on my back tires!! Im calling my lawer and suing for damages! 4000 miles and they are bald! :D

[BillyGman]

I guess the "Increased performance as the car gets older" caper is NOT solved.:confused: But I sure haven't noticed it in my car. And I now have just over 5K on it.......

[studio460]

Originally posted by Smokie
Dennis programmed my PCM and changed stat, was out of Denso's so I drove home and installed Denso's about a week later. The car right away was capable of burning rubber . . .
Gee, I HOPE I have that to look forward to as well, Smokie! Didn't think the Densos would make THAT kind of difference! I got my FordChip dynotune by Jerry [now known as 'SCT'] a couple weeks ago. I just ordered my Densos and 180° 'stat from Dennis last Friday, and I should get them next week!

[Smokie]

NBC Shooter I really believe the Denso's will make a difference that you will notice, very, very smoth idle and instant throttle response, I really hope the results will please you.

BillyG When I bought the car the throttle response was really bad from a dead start and not much happened until it reached 3500 Rpm's at about 5000k it was noticeable to both me and the wife that the take off and shifts were better; the exhaust note was louder under accelaration. Maybe your change is yet to come,:)