Long tubes not much benefit when supercharged??

[im4darush]

I keep reading about this but dont really understand the concept. My car is vortech blown and currently has the cobra exhaust manifolds. Making 450hp to the wheels in it's current tune. So the concept of stepping up to a long tube header and not gaining much over the cobra manifolds does not make much sence to me. I of course could be missunderstanding things, so can someone please set me straight? Will a long tube header offer a significant power increase (to justify the cost) over the cobra manifold on a car that is supercharged? Thank you!

[DOOM]

:eek: My car picked 50rwhp when i put my KOOKS headers on.
One of the best mods i have ever done.
I dont know too much about the cobra manifolds sorry.

[juno]

You will pick up some power, but probably not the most bang for the buck.

[O's Fan Rich]

In my opinion it's a good idea to install long tube headers in a forced induction car. It added 30 to mine over the cobra manifolds and X pipe.
It may not make sence, but it certainly makes sense.

Hey look, spell check picks that up.

[ctrlraven]

Remember an engine is a air breathing machine. If you're forcing more air you should allow more to come out. Plus it will give the car a throatier sound while gaining power.

[Joe Walsh]

It's all about moving air...the easier you make it for any engine, N/A or S/C, to pull air into...and evacuate air out of the cylinders...the more HP you make.


From MM&FF magazine:
"Longtime readers of MM&FF should recognize the Holdener boost/power formula, which states that the gain in power offered by forced induction on a normally aspirated motor is a function of the original power multiplied by the pressure ratio (boost pressure/14.7 plus 1 times NA power). The numbers from our high-compression motor can serve as an example, as the normally aspirated motor produced 401 hp while the Kenne Bell supercharger upped the power output to 600 hp at 9.3 psi. Using our formula, we see that the 9.3 psi is 0.63 percent of 14.7. According to the boost/power formula, the supercharger should have produced 1.63 times 401 hp equals 653 hp. We can attribute the difference to the drive losses associated with spinning the supercharger, as 50 hp is not an unrealistic amount of power to spin the twin-screw supercharger at this speed and power level."

Using this formula shows that whatever HP gains you get from headers on an N/A engine are multiplied by the boost from the S/C.

So whatever HP gain you get from stepping up from Cobra manifolds to long tube headers is multiplied by the boost from the S/C

I would put long tubes on any Marauder engine.

[merc]

This topic has been reviewed several time on this site. Use the search feature. One thing to keep in mind is back pressure.

[O's Fan Rich]

This topic has been reviewed several time on this site. Use the search feature. On thing to keep in mind is back pressure.

It has?...... I find that hard to believe.


:lol: soon Glenn will pop in to discuss the benefits of shorty headers... if the pattern holds true.

[merc]

It has?...... I find that hard to believe.


:lol: soon Glenn will pop in to discuss the benefits of shorty headers... if the pattern holds true.

He did and the post was deleted by the admins.

[O's Fan Rich]

He did and the post was deleted by the admins.

http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/simpsons-the-doh-49005791.jpg

[merc]

http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/simpsons-the-doh-49005791.jpg

You would know that if you were a contributing member Rich. :beer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/scubastza/Blog%20Stuff/firstclass.jpg

[O's Fan Rich]

Oh....

SNAP!!!

at me!!!

Ouch..... oh..... oooooooooooo...... nooooooooo....

[Pops]

Oh....

SNAP!!!

at me!!!

Ouch..... oh..... oooooooooooo...... nooooooooo....

I agree with Merc on this one Rich!

[merc]

I agree with Merc on this one Rich!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuAVgWJ28Hw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuAVgWJ28Hw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Dennis Reinhart]

I keep reading about this but dont really understand the concept. My car is vortech blown and currently has the cobra exhaust manifolds. Making 450hp to the wheels in it's current tune. So the concept of stepping up to a long tube header and not gaining much over the cobra manifolds does not make much sence to me. I of course could be missunderstanding things, so can someone please set me straight? Will a long tube header offer a significant power increase (to justify the cost) over the cobra manifold on a car that is supercharged? Thank you!


Absolutely depending on the car, Ken Bell did a lot of testing with his units and very little gains were shown in a lot of later mustang applications, but, the Marauder dose show a significant gains both N/A and S/C.

[Glenn]

Yes, I deleted my own post because I get tried of being a minority of one and then take the flack. But, I was right on the "Run to NA 12's" and the new IT cost vs performance debate (debacle). So, here it goes - :flamer:.

I read a very interesting book at Summit, they dyno tuned 50 different combinations of ITs, cams, heads, and headers on the Ford 4.6 2, 3 and 4 valve engines NA and SC including the FRPP shortys and Kooks LTs. Regardless of what good and respected people have posted on their HP increases with Kooks the book did not see that kind of increases. In fact, the FRPP shortys were only 6-8 HP less then the Kooks. I will try and get the book and then post the articles for all to read. It was all very interesting. OK - go ahead :argue:

Glenn :burnout:

[O's Fan Rich]

Yes, I deleted my own post because I get tried of being a minority of one and then take the flack. But, I was right on the "Run to NA 12's" and the new IT cost vs performance debate (debacle). So, here it goes - :flamer:.

It was all very interesting. OK - go ahead :argue:

Glenn :burnout:

Nahhh.... too easy, Glenn.... beside you're looking for it!!!:P

[O's Fan Rich]

I agree with Merc on this one Rich!

Uh-oh... getting ganged up on now..... I'm pm'ing someone!!!

[Pops]

Uh-oh... getting ganged up on now..... I'm pm'ing someone!!!

Who would that be Rich! :)

[merc]

Uh-oh... getting ganged up on now..... I'm pm'ing someone!!!

Maybe I should use a milder approach.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/E3m-gOelA8g&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/E3m-gOelA8g&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Pops]

Hey Merc what about Pink Floyd?;)

[CBT]

Bulletboys ~For The Love Of Money~
Original version is good, but this is louder, more my style!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk2zoEZuEPg

[james1986fox]

What are the gains said to be for NA marauder with minimal mods

[Dr Caleb]

What are the gains said to be for NA marauder with minimal mods

Kooks long tubes were dyno'd at 50HP, @6000RPM, if memory serves.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5053

[Blackened300a]

What are the gains said to be for NA marauder with minimal mods

I hope to be finding out soon. Headers, NAZ intake (when it ever arrives) and a race gas tune.

[Glenn]

I really do not want to get started on this subject especially involving a Logan email - it really serves no purpose! But, my NA MM with FRPP shortys, Cobra X-pipe, TC, UDP, 4:10s (which reduce your HP) and OEM mufflers, tail pipes and tips, no CAI, no EWP, with a tune at Modular Powerhouse pulled 289 RWHP. My SC MM with the above mods and a K&N CAI, EWP, 3.0 pulley and a Jerry W. tune pulled 443 HP. Enough said!

Glenn :burnout:

[sd8683]

I really do not want to get started on this subject especially involving a Logan email - it really serves no purpose! But, my NA MM with FRPP shortys, Cobra X-pipe, TC, UDP, 4:10s (which reduce your HP) and OEM mufflers, tail pipes and tips, no CAI, no EWP, with a tune at Modular Powerhouse pulled 289 RWHP. My SC MM with the above mods and a K&N CAI, EWP, 3.0 pulley and a Jerry W. tune pulled 443 HP. Enough said!

Glenn :burnout:


WOW!! Glenn! Serious?!?!?!:eek: Superchargers add HORSEPOWER!!!!:eek:

[Blackmobile]

My Cobra exhaust set neted me 460 RWHP, so they aren't too shabby on some marauder.

[bigmerc'03]

my cobra shorty header set up (not manifold) neted me 437 RWHP

[Blk Mamba]

Glenn, Blackmobile, I've read a lot of threads on this subject here, and for the $400-$500, difference, I'm sure that I can find another place to gain 6-8 hp, without long tubes.

[Bradley G]

I like the idea of the shorties over long tubes , sounds stupid to some, but I like my quiet too.
I would think the cobra mani's have much better NVH than the headers, not to mention the potential of loose hardware and leaks being less.

[blazen71]

I'm at 425rwhp with stock exhaust and i had a dyno pull at 443rwhp, but i do have a set of SW headers in the garage waiting for install :D.

[RR|Suki]

My Cobra exhaust set neted me 460 RWHP, so they aren't too shabby on some marauder.

I made 460 with stock manifolds...

The arguments about "oh well I made this and that hp with cobra exhaust" are neither here nor there.... you have a blower! put longtubes on the same car same boost and see what happens. My MPH went from a best of 109 to a best of 117 or 118. Do you need long tubes? no you don't need cobras either for that matter to make power.
However, everything else equal, your car will come out more powerful by a lot if you have the long tubes on a blower car. That's just reality

[BruteForce]

That's just reality

Glenn is not limited by such bourgeois concepts.

[Glenn]

Man this gets old ------ SC Long tubers take a look at my Sig!!!!!!!! #17 on the first page. Enough said.

Glenn :burnout:

[Blackmobile]

I made 460 with stock manifolds...

The arguments about "oh well I made this and that hp with cobra exhaust" are neither here nor there.... you have a blower! put longtubes on the same car same boost and see what happens. My MPH went from a best of 109 to a best of 117 or 118. Do you need long tubes? no you don't need cobras either for that matter to make power.
However, everything else equal, your car will come out more powerful by a lot if you have the long tubes on a blower car. That's just reality

My point is, if you are at 450 rwhp, which is relatively the safe limit for a stock engine, switching to long tube headers to gain more HP may net you a blown engine. Ask me how I know! And a trap speed in the area of 100-Teen is also not too difficult for a cobra exhaust setup at all.

[RR|Suki]

Man this gets old ------ SC Long tubers take a look at my Sig!!!!!!!! #17 on the first page. Enough said.

Glenn :burnout:

what does that have to do with anything? what you are saying is totally stupid, Lidio was way ahead of you with no exhaust mods at all... so what? The question isn't what to do to go 11s, the question was whether you make more power with longtubes on a supercharged car. The answer to that is yes, they make more power. It's like you are having your own conversation or something.

[RR|Suki]

My point is, if you are at 450 rwhp, which is relatively the safe limit for a stock engine, switching to long tube headers to gain more HP may net you a blown engine. Ask me how I know! And a trap speed in the area of 100-Teen is also not too difficult for a cobra exhaust setup at all.

So then why not say that first? Did the person even ask about stock engine or anything like that? Again the question was not how much power you can make without exhaust mods, the question was will the car make more power with longtubes... that's the long and short of it, you make more power with longtubes than stock or cobra manifolds, end of story.

[im4darush]

The real questions was actually a bit more involved. I know long tubes make more power. I think we all know that. What I really wanted to know was if the investment required was worth the gains over the cobra manifolds. I am talking real world gains with no other changes other than tune to adjust air/fuel.

[FordNut]

The value of the gains is up to the purchaser. For some people it's worth $900 for a 10 hp gain. For others a 10 hp gain isn't worth $200.

[O's Fan Rich]

The real questions was actually a bit more involved. I know long tubes make more power. I think we all know that. What I really wanted to know was if the investment required was worth the gains over the cobra manifolds. I am talking real world gains with no other changes other than tune to adjust air/fuel.

I like the sound with the pipe....

and the fact that I can say I have long tube headers on my car makes me feel manly and damn sexy!:banana2:

[RR|Suki]

The real questions was actually a bit more involved. I know long tubes make more power. I think we all know that. What I really wanted to know was if the investment required was worth the gains over the cobra manifolds. I am talking real world gains with no other changes other than tune to adjust air/fuel.

That is up to you, Rich gained 30 over cobras, I gained a whole lot more than that, so it's really a subjective thing. I like the sound better, and longtubes do change the way the car feels because they move the power band around a bit. For me it was worth the 1K especially after I realized how much the stock manifolds were restricting the motor's ability to breath. The psi in the intake manifold went down and my power went up about 60hp, that to me is a good thing. Would it of been cheaper to put a smaller pulley on, more than likely. So you have to decide for yourself what to spend your money on. Gotta pick your own poison

[Glenn]

Here is the 4.6 Dyno book I mentioned in a previous post. Summit sold the last one when I went to buy it today. It Dynos Kooks, FRPP, Hooker, JBA, etc. headers on NA and SC engines. The HP increases for NA TLs are not near as much as some have reported here. Very interesting book. Note this quote from the book on SC LT headers ------


"Oddly enough, headers made less of a difference on the higher-horsepower supercharged motors than on the naturally aspirated versions. The tuning effect offered by the exhaust pulse scavenging was less pronounced on the blower motor."


Here's another most interesting comment on TBs ------


" ---- it is safe to say that throttle body upgrades on the 2-valve motors are a worthwhile endeavor. The same cannot be said (universally) about the 4-valve motors, especially the naturally aspirated versions. Testing on stock and mildly modified 4.6L 4-valve motors showed little, if any, power gains offered by throttle body upgrades."


Here's where it gets interesting -----

Chapter 9: Exhaust Systems . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .174


Test 1: Early 2-Valve GT: Hooker Long-Tube Headers
Test 2: PI 2-Valve GT: Ford Racing Shorty Headers

Test 3: PI 2-Valve GT: Kooks 1

5⁄8-inch Long-Tube Headers

Test 4: Eaton Supercharged 4-Valve ’03 Cobra: Flow-Tech Long-Tube Headers
Test 5: Kenne Bell Supercharged 4-Valve ’03 Cobra: Bassani Cat-Back Exhaust
Test 6: 3-Valve ’05 GT: JBA Long-Tube Headers
Test 7: Kenne Bell Supercharged 4-Valve ’03 Cobra: Kooks 1


5⁄8- vs. 13⁄4-inch Headers

Test 8: 4-Valve Cobra: Ford Racing Shorty Headers
Test 9: 4-Valve Cobra: Hooker Long-Tube Headers

Glenn

http://www.cartechbooks.com/cartech/images/blankgif.gif (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/index.cfm?DID=6)Automobiles By Make (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/Category.cfm?DID=6&CATID=13)http://www.cartechbooks.com/cartech/images/Back.gif (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&CATID=13&ObjectGroup_ID=231&OBS=3&Move=Prev&count=1&Pcount=12)Product


2 of 12http://www.cartechbooks.com/cartech/images/Fwd.gif (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&CATID=13&ObjectGroup_ID=231&OBS=3&Move=Next&count=3&Pcount=12)Ford Mustang (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showprod.cfm?DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=231&CATID=13) http://www.cartechbooks.com/cartech/images/SA115-LG.gif




Quantity:

Building 4.6/5.4L Ford Horsepower on the Dyno

by Richard Holdener
The 4.6- and 5.4-liter modular Ford engines are finally catching up with the legendary 5.0L in terms of aftermarket support and performance parts availability. Having a lot of parts to choose from is great for the enthusiast, but it can also make it harder to figure out what parts and modifications will work best. Building 4.6/5.4L Ford Horsepower on the Dyno takes the guesswork out of modification and parts selection by showing you the types of horsepower and torque gains expected by each modification. Author Richard Holdener uses over 340 photos and 185 back-to-back dyno graphs to show you which parts increase horsepower and torque, and which parts don’t deliver on their promises. Unlike sources that only give you peak numbers and gains, Building 4.6/5.4L Ford Horsepower on the Dyno includes complete before-and-after dyno graphs, so you can see where in the RPM range these parts make (or lose) the most horsepower and torque. Holdener covers upgrades for 2-, 3-, and 4-valve modular engines, with chapters on throttle bodies and inlet elbows, intake manifolds, cylinder heads, camshafts, nitrous oxide, supercharging, turbocharging, headers, exhaust systems, and complete engine buildups.




8-1/2 x 11"

Sftbd.

208 pgs.
340+ b/w photos
Item # SA115
ISBN #1932494200




ID #: SA115

Price: $24.95

[juno]

That book and the Sean Hyland book on mod motors are two must haves if you want to see what makes power and sense.
I will check mine to see what it says about shorties vs long tubes. I did not read that part as I have turbo manifolds.
BTW, some of the Shorty-LT changes I have seen done on SC cars lost some torque. It's not all about your peak hp unless you want a dyno queen.

[burt ragio]

If you do a search dyno numbers have been posted in the past. You will see #s on shortys & long tubes by Kooks & Stainless Works supercharged & N/A. You will see gains from 11 - 60 hp/tq gains.

[merc]

If you do a search dyno numbers have been posted in the past. You will see #s on shortys & long tubes by Kooks & Stainless Works supercharged & N/A. You will see gains from 11 - 60 hp/tq gains.

Don't get lost in the numbers. They are a guideline not a rule. Taking measurements down the track using a wide band and other data recorders yield a more accurate foundation for accessing the end results on long tube vs shortys. For example Sherman and I are very close to performance modifications except the weight of the car. He runs 2.5 header and I have Ford Racing Shortys. Chris and I discussed this last year. He didn't think it would yield much difference in the grand scheme of things.

The exhaust Gods in Georgian seem to think shortys offer more back pressure yielding more short term torque. As I continue down the 1320 it seems that at the 1000 ft zone the larger long tubes header pull ahead. This may explain the use of variable runners. Getting these big boat out of the water takes torque and lots of it. I do feel I suffer slightly in mile per hour with shortys, but who cares. Once the dial in number is on the window that's all that matters.

[Glenn]

I agree with Merc on the SC shortys vs. LTs. The SC shortys do run out about 1,000 feet and the LTs will start to out pull the shortys. I know this is true with my SC MM that rolls over at about 1000'+.

But, my approach is very simple. My 4,450# MM requires as much down low torque (i.e. more back pressure at launch then LTs provide) to launch off the line as possible. The greater back pressure then starts to hurt the engine at 1000+ and it rolls over vs the LTs that will keep pulling. Remember 0.1 second quicker off the line equals 0.2 second at the white line. The first 60' is where you win or lose a race.

I get better launch torque off the line with the shortys that's why I have stuck with them when everyone else thought the SC LTs were the way to go. It is VERY true that you cannot beat LTs for a NA car, but not so with a MILD modded SC MM. A more powerful forged engine going over 500+ HP will benefit from the LTs. BUT, I cannot go over 450 HP without risking blowing the engine so any increase in HP is too risky when I just need to improve my launches. My 1.59 sec 60' launches prove my point at 11.91.

OK - :argue:


Glenn :burnout:

[babbage]

Back pressure = torque = BS. Shorties may provide better exhaust velocity.

You don't need hardly any back pressure. There is a point where the valve timing overlaps and the exit of the exhaust gasses helps bring in the new intake charge .

Long tubes reduce back pressure more than shorties that's why they make more power - plain and simple. FACT: On the exhaust stroke if the piston has to fight pressure (back pressure Glenn) then less of that energy actually goes to the crank.

[merc]

Back pressure = torque = BS. Shorties may provide better exhaust velocity.

You don't need hardly any back pressure. There is a point where the valve timing overlaps and the exit of the exhaust gasses helps bring in the new intake charge .

Long tubes reduce back pressure more than shorties that's why they make more power - plain and simple. FACT: On the exhaust stroke if the piston has to fight pressure (back pressure Glenn) then less of that energy actually goes to the crank.

Their is more to explain then the simple replacements of stove pipes. At the same time both cats are removed and replaced with a high flow unit. Tube size is increased to 2.5 to the rear and in my case I use a X pipes to replace the H. I wish I had some flow statistics to reference both headers. In my personal experience I have beaten, and run down, several LT equipped Marauders with similar modifications. A good agreement can be made for using long tubes. I might be force to replace want I have and upgrade, but I don't like to idea of having a roll bar. That takes the retail value away from the car if I decide to sell and could be a insurance problem if I have a claim.