How hard is removing the heads off the MM?

[dohc324ci]

I am contemplating going with a MMR 850 5.3 shortblock vs an Aluminator NA Longblock. I can keep the price within my budget range if I re use my heads and have MMR P&P ($850).

In order to do so I would pull my existing heads ship them over to MMR and have them build my shortblock into a longblock. That way I can drop ship the motor to the shop. I dont want my car sitting in the shop for that long if I have the shop pull the heads.

Any input would be appreciated:beer:

[O's Fan Rich]

Not hard.... need to take the chains and adjusters off, after pulling the balancer and cover.
Then it's a matter of removing the cams, if you are so inclined, or taking the head bolts out with them on yet, which can be done.

You'll need a large bar, as those buggers are tight! Or a good air gun. My Craftsman died trying to back them out....

[ImpalaSlayer]

Not hard.... need to take the chains and adjusters off, after pulling the balancer and cover.
Then it's a matter of removing the cams, if you are so inclined, or taking the head bolts out with them on yet, which can be done.

You'll need a large bar, as those buggers are tight! Or a good air gun. My Craftsman died trying to back them out....


damn? there that tight?

[O's Fan Rich]

damn? there that tight?

mine were... lost reverse on the impact.

I just thought of this.... bcastro, are you looking to do this "in car"?

[dohc324ci]

Yeah....was trying to do myself so the car doesnt sit at the shop for an additional two weeks. If I got to pull the motor to pull the heads then I will send to the shop.

[juno]

I think it can be done in the car if you can get to the back bolts.
The problem is that you have to remove the crank pulley to get the cover off to get to the chains, blah, blah, blah. The stock block uses head bolts which are pretty long. It would be much easier if you remove the cowl and of course the cooling fan/shrould.
You don't need to pull the cams and since they will reassemble it you don't need the cam holding tools.
Since you will pull the motor eventually, why not do it now? It will have to sit for a while though.

If you don't mind me asking, how much is MMR charging to put your motor together after you buy the block?
Did you ask about timing/indexing the cams during assembly?
What compression are you going with?

[O's Fan Rich]

Hmmmmm.... in car....

perhaps by disconnecting the exhaust at the manifolds ( you'll have to do this anyway), removing trans and motor mount nuts, you could jack the motor enough to get the bolts out. They are long mothers.......

If it were me, I'd yank the engine. Or find a good set of complete heads to send to MMR.

[MM_BKK]

It takes less time to pull the engine than to struggle to get the heads off.
Taking the heads off while the engine is still in the car is a back breaking task.
The engine have to come out anyway so why not just take it out now.
It took me about 6 hrs to pull my engine out.
Once I had the engine mounted on the stand, it only took less than an hour to get the timing cover then the heads off with a Snap-On impact gun.

[juno]

Just a caveat, if you have the timing chains off and the heads still on, DO NOT MOVE THE CRANK. :)

[Vortech347]

I've had 3 different ford techs tell me NOT to use air when removing the head bolts. Use a breaker bar. You are also supposed to remove the head bolts in a specific patern as well.

[-Matt-]

I've had 3 different ford techs tell me NOT to use air when removing the head bolts. Use a breaker bar. You are also supposed to remove the head bolts in a specific patern as well.


X2... the garage i worked at was very cautious about that. Always use a breaker bar.

[Cheeseheadbob]

Let's just say Rich has a lot of big shade trees around his garage...:D
X2... the garage i worked at was very cautious about that. Always use a breaker bar.

[Joe Walsh]

I pulled my heads with the engine still in the car.
Then I sent the heads, chains, tensioners, etc. to Modular Peformance so they could rework them and install the heads on the built shortblock.

I used a breaker bar also.
Yep...lonnnng head bolts.
I don't recall any excessive cussin' & swearing when I pulled the heads.

[dohc324ci]

I think it can be done in the car if you can get to the back bolts.
The problem is that you have to remove the crank pulley to get the cover off to get to the chains, blah, blah, blah. The stock block uses head bolts which are pretty long. It would be much easier if you remove the cowl and of course the cooling fan/shrould.
You don't need to pull the cams and since they will reassemble it you don't need the cam holding tools.
Since you will pull the motor eventually, why not do it now? It will have to sit for a while though.

If you don't mind me asking, how much is MMR charging to put your motor together after you buy the block?
Did you ask about timing/indexing the cams during assembly?
What compression are you going with?

Based on everyones responses I'll have the motor pulled....sounds like a PITA to do in car.

MMR is quoting me on a 5.0 Stroker 950 shortblock w/FRRP Boss 302 block to make it a 5.3 (9:5:1 cr) $400 to make my shortblock into a longblock (using my heads) P&P stage 3 $850....as for timing indexing during assembly....no should I?

[juno]

Based on everyones responses I'll have the motor pulled....sounds like a PITA to do in car.

MMR is quoting me on a 5.0 Stroker 950 shortblock w/FRRP Boss 302 block to make it a 5.3 (9:5:1 cr) $400 to make my shortblock into a longblock (using my heads) P&P stage 3 $850....as for timing indexing during assembly....no should I?

You don't need to do it, but I would recommend it. From the factory the cams are usually off by a degree or two, so if it is only $100-200 dollars it will be worth the extra hp.

That will be a great motor! Over 400 rwhp easy, plus the 9.5 cr is good NA and for boost later!

I have been looking at the 5.0 Stroker 950 at 9.5 - 1 and was considering shipping the heads out there. I may have to contact them!

[Dennis Reinhart]

I am contemplating going with a MMR 850 5.3 shortblock vs an Aluminator NA Longblock. I can keep the price within my budget range if I re use my heads and have MMR P&P ($850).

In order to do so I would pull my existing heads ship them over to MMR and have them build my shortblock into a longblock. That way I can drop ship the motor to the shop. I dont want my car sitting in the shop for that long if I have the shop pull the heads.

Any input would be appreciated:beer:

If it was me I would pull the engine put it a engine stand and no misstakes will be made in the car all things can happen

[dohc324ci]

If it was me I would pull the engine put it a engine stand and no misstakes will be made in the car all things can happen


Thanks Dennis, youve spent a lot of time with me trying to flush things out.....I really appreciate it.

I cant wait for the the motor to be done and BOOOST from your KIT.

[dohc324ci]

You don't need to do it, but I would recommend it. From the factory the cams are usually off by a degree or two, so if it is only $100-200 dollars it will be worth the extra hp.

That will be a great motor! Over 400 rwhp easy, plus the 9.5 cr is good NA and for boost later!

I have been looking at the 5.0 Stroker 950 at 9.5 - 1 and was considering shipping the heads out there. I may have to contact them!


Ok, nice for a motor that's going to cost me 9.5k when using my heads....whats another 200 dollars:dunno: I was going to buy some bling (FRRP Valve/Coil Covers) but from the looks of things I am going to re use my valve/Coil covers, heads and flywheel, front covers.....Also, I am going with a MMR oil pan with the Vortech/Paxton front adapter for the DR Vortech Kit.

[dohc324ci]

You don't need to do it, but I would recommend it. From the factory the cams are usually off by a degree or two, so if it is only $100-200 dollars it will be worth the extra hp.

That will be a great motor! Over 400 rwhp easy, plus the 9.5 cr is good NA and for boost later!

I have been looking at the 5.0 Stroker 950 at 9.5 - 1 and was considering shipping the heads out there. I may have to contact them!

Yeah I am going with 9:5:1 so I can add boost down the line. I am hoping to be at around 400rwhp with the Comp stage 2 Cams, Stage 3 Ported heads, the stroker motor and FRRP Boss block....:burnout:But I think 360-380rwhp is most likely based on others who have done this combo. I may have to run with just a Lidio tune for a month or so until I can send over to the Tuner (1.5hr away) to have it tuned and dynoed.

[juno]

Ok, nice for a motor that's going to cost me 9.5k when using my heads....whats another 200 dollars:dunno: I was going to buy some bling (FRRP Valve/Coil Covers) but from the looks of things I am going to re use my valve/Coil covers, heads and flywheel, front covers.....Also, I am going with a MMR oil pan with the Vortech/Paxton front adapter for the DR Vortech Kit.

Be careful with the oil pan. The mustang pans are curved and ours are straight
to fit the big crossmember (tbe pan needs to be at a 90 degree angle) Dennis can verify that for you!

[jdenning002]

Let me know if you need any help, I am not too far away...

[dohc324ci]

Be careful with the oil pan. The mustang pans are curved and ours are straight
to fit the big crossmember (tbe pan needs to be at a 90 degree angle) Dennis can verify that for you!


Thanks for the heads up.....saved me some headaches.

I just need to make a darn decision....on motor already. OsFanRich is doing the Aluminator NA on his Trilogy at 14-16lbs of boost! I may have to rethink my build as I will be under 600rwhp as well. There is a big difference in price and if I stay under that its one hell of a deal for the Aluminator.

I could do the Aluminator NA motor and DR blower R&R for the price of the MMR Big bore stroker w/heads, cams R&R and tune.

[juno]

Thanks for the heads up.....saved me some headaches.

I just need to make a darn decision....on motor already. OsFanRich is doing the Aluminator NA on his Trilogy at 14-16lbs of boost! I may have to rethink my build as I will be under 600rwhp as well. There is a big difference in price and if I stay under that its one hell of a deal for the Aluminator.

I could do the Aluminator NA motor and DR blower R&R for the price of the MMR Big bore stroker w/heads, cams R&R and tune.

The aluminator and the blower will make a ton of power. Will it be CARB approved for CA?

[FordNut]

The aluminator and the blower will make a ton of power. Will it be CARB approved for CA?

I believe he did some research and found that the Vortech is CARB approved.

[juno]

Just to add to the confusion!

To get 16 lbs of boost on a 10.5 compression motor you will likely need race gas or constant meth injection.(which Rich already has)

A 950 stroker iron shortblock is what, 3400 at MMR?
They could build it at a slightly lower compression, (9.5-9.8), port your heads and assemble it for the same or a little more then the aluminator.
The extra 85 lbs or so of the iron block would be more then compensated for by the extra displacement. The lower CR would allow you to run probably 2 psi more on pump gas and combined with the better flowing heads you could probably make a lot more horsepower at 14 psi on pump gas then you would with the aluminator.

[dohc324ci]

Just to add to the confusion!

To get 16 lbs of boost on a 10.5 compression motor you will likely need race gas or constant meth injection.(which Rich already has)

A 950 stroker iron shortblock is what, 3400 at MMR?
They could build it at a slightly lower compression, (9.5-9.8), port your heads and assemble it for the same or a little more then the aluminator.
The extra 85 lbs or so of the iron block would be more then compensated for by the extra displacement. The lower CR would allow you to run probably 2 psi more on pump gas and combined with the better flowing heads you could probably make a lot more horsepower at 14 psi on pump gas then you would with the aluminator.


Yeah I thought of going that route as well; the problem I have is if I have MMR build the motor then I "want" see below......

MMR 850 Stroker Short Block - 9.5:1cr $3199 + $100 if I want 950?
FRRP Boss 302 (5.3L 324 ci) $1799
MMR Port, Polish and valve job existing heads $850
MMR Stage II Comp Cams/Crower $1199
Comp Cam Valve Springs $369
MMR Oil Pump $99
ARP Head&Main studs $400
Felpro Gasket $169
MMR Labor shortblock to longblock $400
Shipping $200
Tax (California company) $669

MMR Total $8790

Timing Kit $400
FRRP Coil Covers (bling) $275
Speed Shop R&R/Tune $2000

Project Total $12k :eek:

Tousely Ford FRRP Aluminator Long Block NA 10:1cr/Timing Kit/FRRP Coil Covers Shipped (no tax Co. not in California) + DR Vortech + Labor (R&R motor/DR SC Install use DR tune) $12.5K

I could probably go without the Boss Block/Cams and a host of other goodies but I like to over engineer than under engineer. I remember OsFanRich saying this whole exercise gave him a headache and carpal tunnel! I Agree:lol:

[dohc324ci]

The aluminator and the blower will make a ton of power. Will it be CARB approved for CA?


Yes. A couple members (Vortech and Paxton) already have a blowers that passed smog.

Also, the Marauder slipped under the Crown Vic/Mercury Grand Marque kit that Vortech put out. It is listed on CA air resource board website. I spoke to the state rep listed on the web site and they said it should be covered as long as the blower has the EO on the blower D-213-xx. Essentially the blower they have listed is a V2 S-Trim. However in later revision they listed all trims.....JT, T...etc.

see thread-
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54866&highlight=vortech

[Glenn]

You can never make up the effective lost HP/torque from a lower SC compression engine or the greater power/torque you get off the line especially in a heavy car. Raising the boost will not gain you the lost effective HP/torque regardless of what people say. Rich determined that this was the right way to go with his 10.0 compression Aluminator engine. Our 200+ Trilogy SC engines are testimony to this action. I have 13# of boost on my SC 10.1 compressive engine with no meth (which I believe does more harm then good in the long run) on 93 octane gas.

Effective HP/Torque off the line will win more races then more power at very high rpms.


Glenn :argue:

[Dennis Reinhart]

You can never make up the effective lost HP/torque from a lower SC compression engine or the greater power/torque you get off the line especially in a heavy car. Raising the boost will not gain you the lost effective HP/torque regardless of what people say. Rich determined that this was the right way to go with his 10.0 compression Aluminator engine. Our 200+ Trilogy SC engines are testimony to this action. I have 13# of boost on my SC 10.1 compressive engine with no meth (which I believe does more harm then good in the long run) on 93 octane gas.

Effective HP/Torque off the line will win more races then more power at very high rpms.


Glenn :argue:


Glenn you and I are friends, I could never dissagree with you more, you can never run 16 psi on a 10/1 motor with out running race gas or rape the timing, you lower comprsion and run more boost and higher inlet volume and you will toatly make up from the loss of 10/1 to 9/1, Rich chose 10/1 because the only offer 10/1 to 8/1 which is to low, so he went with 10/1 whch is ok at 15 PSI if you rape the timing on the street but add it back if you run race gas, now you are entering multiple values that could lead to a melt down KIS keep it simple, I respect your opinion I have mine. a nine to one motor can easily run 18 PSI with either roots or centrifugul, but octane is the main concern, and heat soak.

[MM_BKK]

You can never make up the effective lost HP/torque from a lower SC compression engine or the greater power/torque you get off the line especially in a heavy car. Raising the boost will not gain you the lost effective HP/torque regardless of what people say. Rich determined that this was the right way to go with his 10.0 compression Aluminator engine. Our 200+ Trilogy SC engines are testimony to this action. I have 13# of boost on my SC 10.1 compressive engine with no meth (which I believe does more harm then good in the long run) on 93 octane gas.

Effective HP/Torque off the line will win more races then more power at very high rpms.


Glenn :argue:


You can absolutely make more power with lower compression and more boost.

A higher compression NA engine will make more power than lower compression counterpart due to higher thermal efficiencies, I'll give you that.

But when you have more boost, now you are bringing in more AIR & FUEL into the equation. The ability to burn more fuel (in proportion with air) is KEY to making more power.
That's why these high horsepower motors require upgraded fuel pump, bigger injectors, larger fuel line or additional pumps.

Bottom Line: Burning more fuel will make more power than just higher static compression.

If you can run 16 psi on a 10:1 motor with x octane safely, you could run at least 24 psi with an 8.5:1 motor with the same octane.

[juno]

Glenn,
You are correct up to a point. Yes, you can make more power with less boost on a higher compression motor, but you run out of octane/timing faster. If you want to run race gas all the time you can certainly make a ton of power.
The iron stroker adds 40 hp/tq right off the bat which more then makes up for the 85 lbs (8.5hp) and .5-1 cr (6hp?) and a lot of that is low end hp torque added.
13 psi on a 10.5 motor (ours) is pushing it at 93 octane.
Rich had two choices, 8.5 or 10.5. He has 93 octane available and a meth system already installed. He will probably run out of boost on the 10.5 motor even with the modified eaton.
I am not even sure you can get 93 octane in Cali.


You can never make up the effective lost HP/torque from a lower SC compression engine or the greater power/torque you get off the line especially in a heavy car. Raising the boost will not gain you the lost effective HP/torque regardless of what people say. Rich determined that this was the right way to go with his 10.0 compression Aluminator engine. Our 200+ Trilogy SC engines are testimony to this action. I have 13# of boost on my SC 10.1 compressive engine with no meth (which I believe does more harm then good in the long run) on 93 octane gas.

Effective HP/Torque off the line will win more races then more power at very high rpms.


Glenn :argue:

[juno]

I agree, that is a dream motor!!!
I have been trying to make up my mind about what I want for a few years, so I have done all the research you are talking about. I have a couple of spreadsheets on it actually. :) Even at only 9.5 psi I am above the safe limits for my stock block. It's frustrating cause all I have to do is push a button and program my boost to whatever I want. I am set at about 33% right now.
The aluminator is the simplest and most cost effective method, but I would still be limited in boost. But if the eaton guys are doing 13 psi, I could probably go 15-16 on 93 with no meth/water. If I could get to 16, I would be over 600rwhp, but that seems unlikely at 10.5 cr.


Yes, if you passed on the boss block and used DR's tune, it would reduce the price significantly and you would have a much stouter motor. (ARP hardware, oil pump, heads) and make an extra 75-100 hp even on 91 octane.

Sorry if it seems I am sticking my hand in your wallet, I don't mean to, just throwing ideas out there for you (and anyone else interested). :)



Yeah I thought of going that route as well; the problem I have is if I have MMR build the motor then I "want" see below......

MMR 850 Stroker Short Block - 9.5:1cr $3199 + $100 if I want 950?
FRRP Boss 302 (5.3L 324 ci) $1799
MMR Port, Polish and valve job existing heads $850
MMR Stage II Comp Cams/Crower $1199
Comp Cam Valve Springs $369
MMR Oil Pump $99
ARP Head&Main studs $400
Felpro Gasket $169
MMR Labor shortblock to longblock $400
Shipping $200
Tax (California company) $669

MMR Total $8790

Timing Kit $400
FRRP Coil Covers (bling) $275
Speed Shop R&R/Tune $2000

Project Total $12k :eek:

Tousely Ford FRRP Aluminator Long Block NA 10:1cr/Timing Kit/FRRP Coil Covers Shipped (no tax Co. not in California) + DR Vortech + Labor (R&R motor/DR SC Install use DR tune) $12.5K

I could probably go without the Boss Block/Cams and a host of other goodies but I like to over engineer than under engineer. I remember OsFanRich saying this whole exercise gave him a headache and carpal tunnel! I Agree:lol:

[dohc324ci]

Thanks Juno.....this is the reason I come to this site to get feedback so I can flush out in my little head. And if we can save some poor soul along the way then we've done our good deed for the day!

For some reason I JUST HAVE TO HAVE THE BIG BORE STROKER SETUP!

For now thats where I am leaning. Car is paid for basically run NA for a while take the train to work and let her sit in my garage.......take her to Sacramento Raceway........then....ahhhh crappp.......do this whole exercise again........research which SC (Vortech V1,V2, JT, Paxton SL or NL 1500, 2000) then buy the SC......

[FordNut]

Keep in mind that increasing the displacement will reduce fuel economy even if you stay out of boost. Stock displacement will get close to stock mileage as long as you stay out of boost.

[dohc324ci]

Ford Nut what mileage are you getting on that 5.3L?

[FordNut]

12 or so...

[dohc324ci]

YIKES! Is that city/fwy avg?

That like 220-230 miles on a tank of gas; is this with a heavy foot or normal driving?

[FordNut]

I don't get 200 miles from a tank.

[dohc324ci]

Guess I am taking the train to work! Is that average MPG for the 5.3 BBS?