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Bluerauder
08-31-2009, 05:23 PM
Close Encounter with Road Rage

Today, I got to see the ugly side of Road Rage. :mad: Unfortunately, I was on the receiving end. :o

Was headed to work this morning on a 3 lane road posted at 45 MPH. Ahead is a woman in a silver Toyota Camry draggin’ azz at about 25 MPH. Cars behind her are moving left and right to get around her. As I come up behind the Camry, I checked the rearview and saw a motorcycle. Put my left blinker on and checked the left side mirror to make the pass. I also have a habit of looking over my left shoulder to check the blind spot.

As I pulled out to pass, I noticed that the motorcycle must have made the move at the same time. The motorcycle guy was PO’d. He was about a 30-something on a Harley Soft tail, black helmet (not full face type).

After a right turn merge, he came up in the left lane beside me at a Red Light and went absolutely ballistic. “You cut me off, MFer and almost run me off the road." He was waving his arms and pointing. I thought he was gonna blow a blood vessel in his head.

I calmly rolled down my window and said that “I didn’t see him” and “Sorry”. “That’s no excuse … check your mirrors old man …. That’s what they are for MFer”. He continued to point and scream and I just rolled up my window. The guy was REALLY pizzed. Probably half at me and half at himself since he contributed to the problem IMHO.

Not sure what I could have done differently if anything. I do check mirrors, signal and check the blind spot. I didn’t see this guy make his move trying to get around both of us. If he would have hit me, it would have been in the rear or the left rear quarter panel.

Ya’ll be careful out there …. Road Rage happens quickly.

If you are a Motorcycle rider …. Be really careful ‘cause sometimes we just can’t see you. Auto headlights on motorcycles have helped; but it doesn’t completely eliminate the visibility problem.

Blown3.8
08-31-2009, 06:00 PM
Prolly his bad also like you said Charlie. I'm sure he had enough time to see what was going on and should have just held his ground behind you to make the pass.

I used to ride and you know what people are going to do in a situation like that. Just hold your ground and wait for the cluster F to dissapate so you don't get killed.

Don't worry about it to much... OLD MAN.:P

ChiTownMaraud3r
08-31-2009, 06:36 PM
Sounds like you handled it well.

I was on my ninja one day and was cut off by a clown in a hyundai. I hit the brakes and so did he when he noticed what he had done. Since he didn't fully merge into my lane and had slowed to about 10mph, I safely went around him to continue in my lane, well the asshat must have taken offense because slammed on his horn as I rode by him. I thought nothing of it and continued only to see the guy speeding up and then excessively tailgating me, literally one or two feet away from hitting rear tire. One thing I can not stand and have no tolerance for is tailgating whether in my car or on the bike. So the next light I pulled in between lanes, let the guy drive up and he proceeds to give me lip about needing more than a helmet for my driving, so I let him have it. I was this close to kicking the guys side view mirror off and throwing my helmet at him.

But I just told him off and left him with some ninja exhaust tunes to wake him up. Some people are so ****ing ignorant :shake:

Bigdogjim
08-31-2009, 07:43 PM
I have drivers do it to a lot when I am driving the bus, as soon as they see my blinker they try and shoot around me, too bad they mis-judge how long a 45' motorcoach really is.

Charlie I am surpirised that in your area road rage is not worse.

I would have never put the window down.

Glad it did not get worse!

Stranger in the Black Sedan
08-31-2009, 07:52 PM
Motorcyclists sometimes think they are always right and that people driving cars are automatically in the wrong. Sometimes cars legitimately almost run bikes off the road because they aren't paying attention but some of the time the bikes are the ones at fault but you can bet the motorcycle guys are telling their friends about some a-hole that "almost ran them off the road"

FordNut
08-31-2009, 08:19 PM
Bikers like that are just stupid. When I'm riding, I know I will ALWAYS lose, so I try to be very defensive. Get in a shouting match with somebody in a car and it could escalate into a serious problem.

gilby04
08-31-2009, 08:23 PM
Motorcyclists, in my estimation, tend to move at a faster pace than the majority of vehicles, no matter how many lanes the roadway.
In fact, I can't recall the last time I overtook and passed a motorcyclist.
I'm with Bigdog, my window would not have gone down either.

Motorhead350
08-31-2009, 11:30 PM
You had me at biker...

Those people have no right to be mad at me if they don't follow the rules of traffic themselves.

Benwin
09-01-2009, 01:07 AM
Bikers like that are just stupid. When I'm riding, I know I will ALWAYS lose, so I try to be very defensive. Get in a shouting match with somebody in a car and it could escalate into a serious problem.

:agree::agree::agree::agree:

Bikers seem to forget (at least in Northern Ohio) that they are on *TWO* wheels, and cars are on *FOUR* wheels... Sure, that bike is going to leave a dent, and scratch the paint, but when's the last time you saw "Driver of car was killed in an accident with a motorcycle, and the cyclist walked away unharmed"?

Thought not.

bob6364
09-01-2009, 04:49 AM
Charlie I am surpirised that in your area road rage is not worse.

I would have never put the window down.

Glad it did not get worse!

I agree when I cross into Va i feel like I have a big bullseye on my car,with the out of state plates the locals just pull every dirty trick out of their books,its amazing how there can be 4 car lengths open on my left and when my left signal comes on 4 cars come out of no where and take up the space.

Krytin
09-01-2009, 05:23 AM
This is why you DON'T pass MORE than one slow moving car in front of you at a time!
The SECOND car in line may NOT be a slow mover!!!
Sorry - motorcycle pilot is 100% at fault.

Egon Spengler
09-01-2009, 05:26 AM
He was probably pissed and was going to be cool and rip by with his loud exhaust, but you hindered that... I am sure he was pulling a jackass move and you did the right thing and used your blinkers etc... I am sure he was in the wrong... just a bone head motorcyclist that makes us bike riders look bad and will probably wind up dead

duhtroll
09-01-2009, 05:59 AM
It isn't always fast bikers.

Saturday there was a bike event somewhere in Iowa because they were everywhere. I was headed to Cedar Rapids for an appointment. 6 bikers decided to take up both lanes of the interstate, going just under the PSL, and they had a long line of cars behind them. I had to follow this for at least 10 miles before my exit. I don't know how long they maintained this after that.

I wasn't in a hurry but they are counting on someone in a vehicle NOT getting pissed off enough to run them off the road. Not smart, IMO.

FordNut
09-01-2009, 06:36 AM
It isn't always fast bikers.

Saturday there was a bike event somewhere in Iowa because they were everywhere. I was headed to Cedar Rapids for an appointment. 6 bikers decided to take up both lanes of the interstate, going just under the PSL, and they had a long line of cars behind them. I had to follow this for at least 10 miles before my exit. I don't know how long they maintained this after that.

I wasn't in a hurry but they are counting on someone in a vehicle NOT getting pissed off enough to run them off the road. Not smart, IMO.

Those kind of idiots give us all a bad name. As well as the loud pipes.

rayjay
09-01-2009, 06:54 AM
I always expect the bike to do something stupid so I motion my intention well ahead of making my move.
Keep a 45acp in the console. Too many knuts on the roads on both two and four wheels.

Spectragod
09-01-2009, 10:35 AM
when's the last time you saw "Driver of car was killed in an accident with a motorcycle, and the cyclist walked away unharmed"?

Thought not.

Well, interesting that you should bring that up, it was several years back when this old guy pulled out in front of a biker (crotch rocket), the bikes estimated speed was 142MPH, right into the drivers side door of a Plymouth K car, not a lot left of anyone in that crash, 2 fatalities (once all or most of the parts were found).

FWIW, this happened at night, the conclusion was that the elderly driver pulled out to cross the divided 4 lane state route, and mis judged the speed of the bike.

But I will concur that the biker in Blurauder's incident was at fault.

Krytin
09-01-2009, 10:38 AM
keep a 45acp in the console. Too many knuts on the roads on both two and four wheels.
+1 ;)

rayjay
09-01-2009, 12:46 PM
Well, interesting that you should bring that up, it was several years back when this old guy pulled out in front of a biker (crotch rocket), the bikes estimated speed was 142MPH, right into the drivers side door of a Plymouth K car, not a lot left of anyone in that crash, 2 fatalities (once all or most of the parts were found).

FWIW, this happened at night, the conclusion was that the elderly driver pulled out to cross the divided 4 lane state route, and mis judged the speed of the bike.

But I will concur that the biker in Blurauder's incident was at fault.

I don't too many people that could accurately judge a vehicle coming at them at 142mph. You look, its way down the road, turn your head to look the other way, turn back and its there. Kersplat...

Joe Walsh
09-01-2009, 02:16 PM
As I pulled out to pass, I noticed that the motorcycle must have made the move at the same time.....
The guy was REALLY pizzed. Probably half at me and half at himself since he contributed to the problem IMHO.

I didn’t see this guy make his move trying to get around both of us.
If he would have hit me, it would have been in the rear or the left rear quarter panel.


Prolly his bad also like you said Charlie. I'm sure he had enough time to see what was going on and should have just held his ground behind you to make the pass.


This is why you DON'T pass MORE than one slow moving car in front of you at a time!
The SECOND car in line may NOT be a slow mover!!!
Sorry - motorcycle pilot is 100% at fault.

Glad to hear that you are OK Charlie!
Luckily there was no accident.....no 'fisticuffs'......nor any gunfire!....:eek:
As others have posted.....it was his fault yet he got all pissed at you.
He should have been madder at himself for trying that bonehead maneuver.

JUST 1BULLITT
09-01-2009, 04:11 PM
GLAD you're OK Charlie! You sure did NOT deserve that kind of 'thrash' from the guy, but you likely scared the "SHITE" (Little Middle East HUMOR there! : >) out of the guy so he was just venting at you...as the others already said, you handled it very well and kept your cool; that's KEY in times like that.

I LIKE Ray Jay's .45 ACP in the console too; As Al Capone always said; "You can get a lot further with a kind word and a GUN than a Kind Word Alone..." : > :cool:

Bluerauder
09-01-2009, 05:16 PM
I appreciate all the support on this incident. BTW -- I am NOT pizzed at all motorcyclists. In fact, I didn't let this incident bother me for more than 2 minutes after I really thought about what had just happened.


Glad to hear that you are OK Charlie!
Luckily there was no accident.....no 'fisticuffs'......nor any gunfire!....:eek:

With the ranting and raving and irrational behavior, don't think that this ^^^^ thought didn't cross my mind. Since I was first in my line at the Red Light, I had an "escape plan". There's little to no cross traffic at that particular light .... it's one of those traffic signals that VDOT installs just to stop traffic for no reason whatsoever. Sequence had already been engaged --- O/D off, T/C off, A/C off. If the guy had made one move to come off the bike, he was gonna hear some MM exhaust music. :D

SC Cheesehead
09-02-2009, 06:04 AM
I appreciate all the support on this incident. BTW -- I am NOT pizzed at all motorcyclists. In fact, I didn't let this incident bother me for more than 2 minutes after I really thought about what had just happened.



With the ranting and raving and irrational behavior, don't think that this ^^^^ thought didn't cross my mind. Since I was first in my line at the Red Light, I had an "escape plan". There's little to no cross traffic at that particular light .... it's one of those traffic signals that VDOT installs just to stop traffic for no reason whatsoever. Sequence had already been engaged --- O/D off, T/C off, A/C off. If the guy had made one move to come off the bike, he was gonna hear some MM exhaust music. :D

Charlie, sounds like you could use one of these:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=18826649011339 29840

Joe Walsh
09-02-2009, 06:32 AM
Charlie, sounds like you could use one of these:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=18826649011339 29840

Those Trunk Monkey videos are great!
I had to check out the 'Go Daddy.com' commercial too.

Marauderman
09-02-2009, 09:53 AM
............You look, its way down the road, turn your head to look the other way, turn back and its there. Kersplat...

Exactly....I really think what happen in Charlies case is this:

As Charlie looked to turn and then signal left the 2-wheeler had decide to do the samething, except in his mind he didn't think nor see Charlie doing this , so he gunned it left and started left towards Charlie to pass --at the same time now that Charlie began moving left--thus the thoughts of the 2-wheeler thinking Charlies was running him off the road--Charlie did not see him left as he wasn't there a second ago--call cause he moved so fast between Charlies actions--it happens that fast--- not seeing him on his left


Glad to hear that you are OK Charlie!
Luckily there was no accident.....no 'fisticuffs'......nor any gunfire!....:eek:
As others have posted.....it was his fault yet he got all pissed at you.
He should have been madder at himself for trying that bonehead maneuver.

Another if not the real reason I got my MM and upgraded it--actually a long story involving number of cars working my way towards the MM---so me too --I would leave him and he would have to have more nerve than me to catch me---

Good going there Charlie

Bluerauder
09-02-2009, 10:14 AM
Exactly....I really think what happen in Charlies case is this:

As Charlie looked to turn and then signal left the 2-wheeler had decide to do the samething, except in his mind he didn't think nor see Charlie doing this , so he gunned it left and started left towards Charlie to pass --at the same time now that Charlie began moving left--thus the thoughts of the 2-wheeler thinking Charlies was running him off the road--Charlie did not see him left as he wasn't there a second ago--call cause he moved so fast between Charlies actions--it happens that fast--- not seeing him on his left
Bingo .... I am pretty sure that this ^^^^ is exactly what happened.

Mr. Man
09-02-2009, 07:18 PM
Well Marauderman is close. As I see it and I think if Charlie is honest this is how it went down. Motorcycle guy is gettin his groove on cruisin on his hog when up in the distance he sees this old dude driving with his left blinker on for miles. Noting that the old guy with the blinker on is driving what looks to be a car like his grampa's Mercury Marquis. He thinks to himself that old dude is driving like 25mph and the ole lady in front of him is going equally slow, so I'll just get in the hammer lane and pass him out and maybe give him a little exhaust burst to wake him up, as Charlie was was probably day dreaming about the linebacker sized cheerleaders he saw a couple of weeks ago at the charity car wash he went to. Unfortunately just as the motorcycle guy goes to pass Charlie awakens from his daydream, realises he has been driving behind a slow poke, remembers he turned his blinker on miles before and decides to pass just as the motorcyclist enters his blind spot. Now the motorcyclist has to do an emergency maneuver so as not to hit Charlie or have Charlie hit him. As he regains control of his bike he realises he has made a little mess in his pants and this just sets him off into a rage. Had Charlie just offered the guy a couple of tissues he would have calmed down and gone home to change, but Charlie just flipped him the bird, gassed it and left the poor guy sitting at a stop light in his own filth. Tell me I'm wrong here Charlie, and tell me if I put the key in the ignition the left blinker isn't still blinking.:flamer: Just pulling your leg buddy. We're glad your ok now go turn your blinker off.:D

TAKEDOWN
09-03-2009, 06:14 AM
Loud Pipes save lives!

FordNut
09-03-2009, 06:19 AM
Loud Pipes save lives!

Should be "Loud Pipes Lose Rights".

Loud pipes are to blame for many of the neighborhood bike bans we all have to live with.

O's Fan Rich
09-03-2009, 06:35 AM
Often anger is a by-product of fear.
For instance, I'm one of those guys who when scared go right into "fight mode". Not "flight mode".
This has been demonstrated a number of times in my life.....

The biker may have gotten "angry" because he got scared of what might have been, and he reacted angrily.
I too believe it was on him.
I recall when I rode, I would be looking over my shoulder while engaging the clutch to move, and things "jumped" in front of me now and then.

Bluerauder
09-03-2009, 09:03 AM
:laugh: :laugh:

Well Marauderman is close. As I see it and I think if Charlie is honest this is how it went down. Motorcycle guy is gettin his groove on cruisin on his hog when up in the distance he sees this old dude driving with his left blinker on for miles. Noting that the old guy with the blinker on is driving what looks to be a car like his grampa's Mercury Marquis. He thinks to himself that old dude is driving like 25mph and the ole lady in front of him is going equally slow, so I'll just get in the hammer lane and pass him out and maybe give him a little exhaust burst to wake him up, as Charlie was was probably day dreaming about the linebacker sized cheerleaders he saw a couple of weeks ago at the charity car wash he went to. Unfortunately just as the motorcycle guy goes to pass Charlie awakens from his daydream, realises he has been driving behind a slow poke, remembers he turned his blinker on miles before and decides to pass just as the motorcyclist enters his blind spot. Now the motorcyclist has to do an emergency maneuver so as not to hit Charlie or have Charlie hit him. As he regains control of his bike he realises he has made a little mess in his pants and this just sets him off into a rage. Had Charlie just offered the guy a couple of tissues he would have calmed down and gone home to change, but Charlie just flipped him the bird, gassed it and left the poor guy sitting at a stop light in his own filth. Tell me I'm wrong here Charlie, and tell me if I put the key in the ignition the left blinker isn't still blinking.:flamer: Just pulling your leg buddy. We're glad your ok now go turn your blinker off.:D

I guess anything is possible ;) ..... except for the "Eventual Left" blinker. You'll never see that on my MM. :P

You'll get a chance to try and keep up with this Old Man out in Indianapolis. :D

TAKEDOWN
09-03-2009, 10:06 AM
Should be "Loud Pipes Lose Rights".

Loud pipes are to blame for many of the neighborhood bike bans we all have to live with.


Wait till I install the Headers in the MARAUDER!

guspech750
09-03-2009, 06:08 PM
i say f him. if he cant follow the rules of the road. let him wipe out and hopefully kill himself. weed out the weak and stupid. you did handle it good though.

Krytin
09-04-2009, 01:58 PM
i say f him. if he cant follow the rules of the road. let him wipe out and hopefully kill himself. weed out the weak and stupid. you did handle it good though.

Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel! :lol:

Master
09-29-2009, 09:48 PM
Love this thread. I started out on two wheels and have had more than my share of great and not-so-great biking experiences. What I generally remember, though, is that there are a lot of bikers and a lot of car drivers who seem to have made it their life's mission to give their peers a bad name. When I do something boneheaded in either mode of transport, I try to remind myself that its ME who is taking the chances and actually putting other people at a defensive disadvantage.
In fact, even when the offender is blatantly the other person, I'm more likely to just let it slide (this is a new development - as a teenager and twenty something, I saw "red" every time). This personality trait drives my girlfriend - I mean, wife, crazy. She is forever telling me I should be hitting the horn on people. I just don't have that in me anymore.
My strategy these days is: Don't get angry, get even. When someone does something REALLY boneheaded AND illegal (it has to be both), then I just dial the local non-emergency police number and report it. I note the time, location, direction, car, plate and brief description of the driver in case it goes to court. It is an exceptionally satisfying feeling and it completely eliminates any feelings of rage that may have been simmering.
BTW: My biggest gripe of all is not other drivers, but people who have never been on bikes and insist on telling me how dangerous they are (and they go on about bicycles on the road, too). It drives me nuts. 39 years old, over 30 years on bikes, and not one incident in traffic. Statistically speaking, this can hardly be because every driver I've encountered is a spot-on driver. On the contrary, its because I'm on a bike, I'm aware I'm on a bike, and I drive so defensively it would make a defensive driving instructor jealous. Its just good sense and every "Real" biker knows it.
Also: Loud pipes suck - on cruisers OR sportbikes. I agree that they are the dumbest thing I've ever encountered and wish cops would really crack down. The places we can't ride any more are growing all the time because of wankers who crank it where they shouldn't. And give me a break about "Loud Pipes Save Lives". All my bikes have been quiet and what saves me is good driving, not obnoxious pipes.
Dave out.
(That's my bombastic outburst for the month. I promise).

Krytin
09-30-2009, 05:59 AM
Good one Dave!

How's the 6 speed running?

Master
09-30-2009, 06:36 AM
Should be running again by Thursday, just in time for the last drag meet of the season and in time to go into storage.
I've been without it since April as the driver's cams were assembled out about a tooth. This lead to part load detonation and destruction of pistons and cylinder walls. A very unfortunate and costly mishap. So, I got less than 10,000km on a $5,000.00 set-up only to spend another 5k a year later.
Cars are a drag. :(
I truly hope that all goes well this time and that once the car is running I can just forget about any more mods or senseless rebuilds.
Not a banner summer, that's for sure.

Krytin
09-30-2009, 03:14 PM
Sorry to hear about the engine trouble.
I hope you get it fixed to your satisfaction!
Please start a new thread when it's done and you get it out for a test run - I know I'm not the only one interested!
I still plan on doing the 6 speed conversion myself.

Master
09-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Will do. If all goes well, I'll have a new thread by Saturday evening. Of course, Hockey Night In Canada is back on, so it may be a late-breaking thread...

ChiTownMaraud3r
09-30-2009, 06:03 PM
Disagree, two most important physical things on a motorcycle are lighting and sound. Good defensive driving alone is not going to save you from being rear ended by someone who didn't see you, or merged into because they didnt see or hear you.

I blip (rev match) my bike when downshifting when I see dumb looking drivers pull up a side road, and instantly have their full attention that I'm coming.

I do absolutely hate overly obnoxious loud harley's with riders that wear no gear though. :shake:

Master
10-01-2009, 12:50 PM
If all it took to be noticed was a bit of noise then we could use the little thumb button on the left control. It activates something called a horn. :)
Honestly, I agree with "Directed" noises, signals, lights, and the like. Just common sense. But that goes for any and all vehicles, really. Its where "flash to pass" came from.
One line my old boss at the bike shop used to use was "If you don't think you need a helmet, then you probably don't". Surprising how may riders thought he was agreeing with them about not needing helmets. Well, in a way he was, I suppose.

O's Fan Rich
10-01-2009, 01:02 PM
Should be running again by Thursday, just in time for the last drag meet of the season and in time to go into storage.
I've been without it since April as the driver's cams were assembled out about a tooth. This lead to part load detonation and destruction of pistons and cylinder walls. A very unfortunate and costly mishap. So, I got less than 10,000km on a $5,000.00 set-up only to spend another 5k a year later.
Cars are a drag. :(
I truly hope that all goes well this time and that once the car is running I can just forget about any more mods or senseless rebuilds.
Not a banner summer, that's for sure.

That stinks.....
I know the cost of a bad motor experience for sure! Now THATS a cause for some road rage!

Was it the stock motor that went or a built one?

Master
10-01-2009, 05:00 PM
The built one :(

TAKEDOWN
10-01-2009, 07:30 PM
Call me a P.O.S, Scumbag, Punk, etc. etc.

Sorry Gents, but I like em' LOUD... 17288

FordNut
10-01-2009, 08:08 PM
Yeah, selfish a-holes don't care that they're screwing it up for all of us. That's one reason some states are pushing for OEM-only exhaust systems. Even the reasonable replacement systems would be outlawed along with the stupid straight pipes that ought to be outlawed.

Hopefully the new SAE SPL testing regs will be implemented nationwide and the idiots will have their illegal equipment impounded.

TAKEDOWN
10-01-2009, 08:21 PM
Yeah... I'm sure a lot of Muscle Cars will be gone too!

Master
10-02-2009, 07:40 AM
The nice thing about a sensible exhaust, even aftermarket, is that it can be designed to meet any sound regulation as long as you aren't winding it out. In this way, you can truly dictate exactly when and where you want to make noise. On the track, a deserted stretch of highway, etc, etc.
If you are running pipes that are obnoxiously loud at all rpm, then I personally don't care if its a bike, my MM or any of my other vehicles - it simply shouldn't be allowed.
It is so nice to be able to walk the dog, bike on the roads - essentially enjoy the great out-of-doors - without having to listen to the ear popping noise of a loud exhaust rambling (or screaming) by every five minutes.
I love speed, power, and a good ride. I just cannot abide by noise. Obviously not alone in this or we wouldn't be seeing all of the bans and pitiful attempts at fining people based upon sound meter readings (most of which could easily be thrown out in court due to measurement practices).

martyo
10-02-2009, 10:34 AM
“ … check your mirrors old man …. ”.

You're old. :D

justbob
10-04-2009, 10:22 AM
Nothing wrong at all with loud pipes / exhaust. It's when the riders / drivers insist on riding at the TOP of each gear for NO reason creating an obnoxious RPM so they can be heard. Even open headers really isn't that loud when you drive consiterately. When on an open stretch of road or the track go ahead and unleash that beast within, but when in a neighborhood or in traffic with everyone's window down take it easy on the loud pedal.
We have a nice mustang around here that the owner has put alot of money into, sweet car! But do you really think that it requires 3500-4000 RPM's to cruise at 35 MPH with a manual shift car? I don't think so.
Same with Harley's, they don't HAVE to make that obnoxious loud pipe rattle at the top of every gear.

I am a huge fan of loudness, but I tend to keep it tamed unless needed.

FordNut
10-04-2009, 10:32 AM
I read in the AMA magazine, in Maine they're issuing citations @ $500.00 for loud pipes.

justbob
10-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Is this pertaining to anything aftermarket or are they actually carrying db sensors and determining tickets with calculated facts?