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View Full Version : Who has actually repaired their head(s) to fix 300A startup smoke puff?



Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 08:04 AM
It took until about 35k miles for my 300A to start the startup puff of smoke, but now at 41k it does it noticeably. Also, this car used to go 6k mile oil changes with absolutely no oil consumption, now it used about a half quart in about 4k miles. Although the general concesus on this board re: the 300A smoking/oil consumption seems to be "leave it alone", I am not okay with this engine showing this sort of deterioration at such low mileage, even if it is only nuisance-level deterioration to some people. I am willing to spend the money to properly fix the engine.

My understanding is, and correct me if any of this is incorrect:

Cause:
lack of sufficient cooling for driver's side head

Result: accelerated valve guide wear on driver's side head, causing oil to be drawn through enlarged clearance between intake valve and guide

Repair:

Remove driver's side head, have new guides installed at machine shop

Preventative measures to ensure this does not happen again: Install Reinhart rear cooling mod

Is my understanding correct, and has anyone actually had their head reconditioned at a shop? If it is only the drivers side head that thas the guide wear issue, then I guess an alternate plan might be for me to find another 40k mileage used passenger side head and put it on the driver's side of my car, with a rear cooling mod

PS please don't reply just to tell me you don't have start up smoke on a 300A. I am interested in the proper fix once it has begun, which on my car it has. Thanks

Steve

SC Cheesehead
10-07-2009, 08:16 AM
03mmmonroe was talking about doing some work on his engine (replacing valve guides I believe) to correct this problem, you may want to send him a PM and see what's up.

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 08:17 AM
Cool. I don't mind taking the head off myself and having a shop I trust do just the labor on the guides. I just need to make sure I am clear on the cause, result, and that the rear cooling mod will prevent my repaired head(s) from wearing this fast again.

Blackened300a
10-07-2009, 08:27 AM
I have a early build 03 with 66K hard miles. No smoke, zero oil consumption and I dont have any rear cooling mod done. I think its just lousy guides that were installed on some cars.

burt ragio
10-07-2009, 09:04 AM
Premature oil consumtion is a true indicator of worn valve guides or worn rings. A few members have expressed this concern. I believe the start up smoke is another problem source cause at low milage. I had start up smoke when I bought my Marauder new. At first I was very concerned. At apx 12,000 miles it went away. I think it could be the idle control valve mal function at start up or shut down. The rear head cool mod will help by lowering cylender head temps improve excessive ware caused by heat & decrease pre ignition.

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 09:41 AM
worn guides/seals definitely can cause start up smoking because oil accumulated in the top end runs down the intake valve stems and pools and then burns all at once when you start the engine. I've seen it happen to 20 year old engines with shot valve stem seals. I would hope the seals on this engine are okay but heard the guides themselves may have developed too much clearance. IAC valve? All that is is a controlled vacuum leak to regulate idle speed. Not clear how that could be connected. I don't have the tools to measure valve guide clearance, maybe I should look into that. When I have built performance engines and done head work it was always, if you could wiggle the valve much at all with the valve off the seat, the guides were worn. But since I want this engine to last another 100k miles I need to make sure the work is done to better tolerances than the wiggle test.

I guess I can get some proper range snap gauges and a mic, I should have them anyway. Are the guides integral on these heads or are they removable inserts that a shop can press in/out? Can I order replacement guides directly from Ford?

Krytin
10-07-2009, 11:51 AM
Have you done a compression and/or leak down test to see if the rings are a contributing factor to your high oil consumption? Hate to see you do the valve guides only to find the rings needed to be done.

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 11:54 AM
No I haven't done a leak down. Heh I wouldn't call a half quart in 4,000 miles high consumption, its probably lower than a lot of people. I am not convinced rings would cause start up only smoke. I'm aware dealerships have blamed rings and replaced them on some of these engines w/ the smoke issue but I don't buy that as an actual cause. For ha ha's, I could do a simple crank test for compression, that wouldn't hurt, I don't have a leak down kit though.

Krytin
10-07-2009, 12:06 PM
The leak down test is usually reserved for a higher consumption rate that isn't showing a low cylinder(s) on the regular compression test. You probably don't need a leak down. It's just most of the "puff of smoke on start-up" problems occured on early '03 production low mileage cars - mine did and went away after the second oil change. I'm over 90K on the clock and don't use any oil.

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 12:08 PM
I am 8/2002 production and have 41k miles, I don't know if that qualifies as "early" production

MM2004
10-07-2009, 12:38 PM
FWIW...

My DTR did the smoke at start up a couple times at very low miles and hasn't in 2 - 3 years now.

Just turned over 33k.

Of course, now that I said that...

Mike.

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 12:39 PM
Since I don't have one of these magical self-repairing engines... gonna have to go to plan B. Just trying to find some hard data on what has been found to cause the potential guide issues.

babbage
10-07-2009, 01:03 PM
I have a early build 03 with 66K hard miles. No smoke, zero oil consumption and I dont have any rear cooling mod done. I think its just lousy guides that were installed on some cars.

+1 I have about 58K on mine now. I run AMSOIL (the best oil you can get) and also ran some AUTO-RX (http://www.auto-rx.com/)to clean and recondition the valve seals.

The valve seals get worn out/dried out and leak. I'm not sure if this is the total problem but I do believe in the Auto-Rx product and it really had good results on my 2v 4.6... It's a lot of work to take the heads off. Might as well send them to MMR for a stage 2 port & polish and repair

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 01:08 PM
I'm not interested in doing any performance work to the heads. I just want this engine to be in as close to new condition I can get it back to, which at this point focuses on dealing with whatever is causing the startup smoke. Every time one of those start up smoke threads gets started, like 30 people chime in that their car started doing it and continues to do it, and that it's normal for 300As and at some point they all do it. I don't like that answer.

I guess I can start by taking the heads down to the seals and see what they look like.

Here is a thread from a guy NOMARQUIS who had just the driver's side head fixed and that was the fix

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56067&highlight=smoke

I basically want to do the same thing but instead just have the head reconditioned, not totally replaced.

Just lookin for anyone else who did a real fix like NOMARQUIS and can verify whether this was their problem.

BODYMAN
10-07-2009, 01:28 PM
My KB-S started at 15,xxx got really bad by 20,xxxx and yes it was the valve guides it was done under warranty so they just did both heads to be sure and evrything match from a wear stand point! but yes it was valve guides does youres look like a mosquito blower yet? mine got so bad it was down right embarassing, go to leave and car show and I had people talking about it.
My second one is a 300A also with 60,xxx on it and no smoke at start up! so not all of them do it!

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 01:46 PM
mine only puffs at cold start but it will do it every cold start, it will do it when I leave work. It will be worse if it has sat a couple days.

Thanks for your input, this is what I need to know. I'll have to price out having all guides done. I have to remember this is a 32v engine and not the usual 16v v8s I'm working on, so the machine work is gonna be hella pricey. I have a friend that can do guides and I own my own seat grinder that I have used to do performance valve jobs but its all been on 16v v8 heads. Never touched something personally that had 4 v/cylinder.

RacerX
10-07-2009, 02:27 PM
Just out of curiosity, have you run any cleaners through the engine such as Seafoam? I ran some in the gas tank and had the same problem until I went through two tanks of fuel. Just checking and good luck.

Marauderjack
10-07-2009, 02:34 PM
Mine is an '04 and has puffed smoke sporadically since new.....uses ZERO oil between 5K mile changes and currently has 207,XXX miles on the clock with 123,XXX miles on the blower......Oh and NO head cooling mod (not sure this is a necessary undertaking)!!!:shake:

If I were you I'd try some of the stuff the "Amzoil Guy" suggested and drive it awhile before you tear it apart?? :cool: You may find that pulling the heads with the motor in the car......uh....CHALLENGING!!:e ek:

My $.02 FWIW.....:confused:

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 02:37 PM
I don't run any of those sea foam, auto rx, type things through my cars.

I just got off the phone with a local machine shop that has done a lot of 4v 4.6 head work. They said that although guides get blamed for 4.6 the start up puff, they have never found guides on these heads actually worn unless it was a serious race application. They assured me it was going to be stem seals only on my car. I got a quote just for ha ha's to remove and replace all 32 guides, clean the heads, and deck them and do a valve job, and the total was over $900.

I am assuming all of their 4.6 4v work is mustangs and I don't know if they have done any Marauder head work and whether our uniquely-reputedly-bad cooling on one head is an issue they haven't seen. They typically scoff at me telling them what I read on the interwebs and presenting it as factual.

I am entertaining the idea of just doing stem seals on the car and seeing how that holds up, before digging any deeper. I can do the wiggle test on the valves while I am doing the seals and I can at least tell if they are really worn that way.

RacerX
10-07-2009, 02:44 PM
Sounds like a plan. Have you reserched any info on the 03-04 Cobras? Do they have the related symptoms?

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 02:47 PM
I have not looked into the 4v engine in the other platforms, no. I'm sure the shop is seeing those Mustang application heads though and not people hopping up Marauders or Navigators quite as often. You can tell from this board that not too many people ever have their heads off. Which probably means that my car will probably go another 150,000 smoking-startup miles and not die but I don't like that idea.

RacerX
10-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Do you have an oil filter on the PCV? Trying simple first! :D

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 02:55 PM
I don't have a PCV oil filter, I know the boosted guys had to add them. I was just thinking about PCV oil filters for my other car too. I guess it can't hurt to add one more to my Summit shopping cart

Marauderjack
10-07-2009, 03:07 PM
I don't run any of those sea foam, auto rx, type things through my cars.

I just got off the phone with a local machine shop that has done a lot of 4v 4.6 head work. They said that although guides get blamed for 4.6 the start up puff, they have never found guides on these heads actually worn unless it was a serious race application. They assured me it was going to be stem seals only on my car. I got a quote just for ha ha's to remove and replace all 32 guides, clean the heads, and deck them and do a valve job, and the total was over $900.

I am assuming all of their 4.6 4v work is mustangs and I don't know if they have done any Marauder head work and whether our uniquely-reputedly-bad cooling on one head is an issue they haven't seen. They typically scoff at me telling them what I read on the interwebs and presenting it as factual.

I am entertaining the idea of just doing stem seals on the car and seeing how that holds up, before digging any deeper. I can do the wiggle test on the valves while I am doing the seals and I can at least tell if they are really worn that way.

You seem very determined to take it apart so have at it!!:cool:

There are many chemical products that restore the flexibility to valve guide seals and all the other seals in the engine!!!:beer:

Just trying to save you time, money and possibly disappointment!!:confused:

Good Luck!!:D

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 03:11 PM
I have never had any experiences lent to me about any of the mystery oil in a can type products, that would cause me to run them through my engines. All I know about sea foam is that it smokes like hell. I bet just burning seafoam on its own, smokes like hell. It also probably burns so quickly through the engine that it is in contact with parts for very little time. I definitely won't put additives containing solvents, in my crankcase. I like getting my hands dirty and hopefully in the process, fixing the cause of the problem and being done with it. This car is way too low mileage for me to get into the band-aid fix mentality with. I'm pissed at it that it is giving me issue this early on in the engine's lifespan.

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-07-2009, 03:34 PM
PS I should come with a disclaimer. I changed my stock rear gears myself, twice using 2 different new gear sets, to obtain the smallest amount of gear noise I could possibly obtain (stock exhaust and too-good hearing). I also had a custom steel driveshaft built and tested that to see if it transmitted any less acoustics from the diff through the body (it didn't). I also have gone through several sets of air bags for the rear suspension in an attempt to get the ride height as perfect side to side as I could.

I am kind of obsessive!

/disclaimer

johnnyrauder
10-07-2009, 03:58 PM
shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere????

Egon Spengler
10-07-2009, 04:49 PM
my 300a doesn't smoke at startup and has 95,000 HARD miles on it!

RacerX
10-07-2009, 06:50 PM
PS please don't reply just to tell me you don't have start up smoke on a 300A. I am interested in the proper fix once it has begun, which on my car it has. Thanks

Steve

:flamer:Guess that didn't fly, huh? :D

babbage
10-09-2009, 06:43 AM
I don't run any of those sea foam, auto rx, type things through my cars.

I just got off the phone with a local machine shop that has done a lot of 4v 4.6 head work They assured me it was going to be stem seals only on my car.


Too bad you won't even try Auto-Rx because it will likely fix your leaky seals, not only that but it will clean the engine too. Did you even look at the site? Product actually works. I ran it in my MM when I got it, and it wasn't even smoking then. Just look at the before and afters on the homepage.

http://www.auto-rx.com/

Stranger in the Black Sedan
10-09-2009, 06:50 AM
I read that auto rx contains lanolin esters and that it was originally designed for cleaning printing presses. I have read both good and bad about it. Nothing factual that makes me want to put it in my engine though, I don't like guessing and playing chemist. No offense intended. I'd rather replace seals than run unknown solvents and cleaners through my engine.

babbage
10-09-2009, 07:09 AM
This would be a great test for the smoke at start problem. I don't have smoke on start so I can't test it, if it doesn't work you can still replace the head parts...