Ford FR500 Intake

[Silver_04]

Anyone know if the Ford FR500 magnesium intake will fit a Marauder? There is a pic in the December 5.0 Mustang and Super Fords magazine of a Mustang that is running this intake and the intake has been turned around so the inlet is facing the drivers side, not the passenger side as it would be mounted normally in a Stang.

[BlackHole]

Originally posted by Silver_'04
Anyone know if the Ford FR500 magnesium intake will fit a Marauder? There is a pic in the December 5.0 Mustang and Super Fords magazine of a Mustang that is running this intake and the intake has been turned around so the inlet is facing the drivers side, not the passenger side as it would be mounted normally in a Stang.


Make sure the Image was not reversed. what page is it on as I have this issue in hand. just so I can look at it to.

[Silver_04]

Originally posted by BlackHole
Make sure the Image was not reversed. what page is it on as I have this issue in hand. just so I can look at it to.

The image definately is not reversed. Master cylinder on the drivers side, the signed valve cover plaque is on the passenger side and there is a sticker on the radiator cover that is not backwards (pg 45). Also in the write up they talk about the intake being mounted in reverse (pg 50) but no details on whether it bolted right in or if major modding was done. It would be great if this thing fits.

[Silver_04]

Just sent an e-mail to Ford Racing to see what they have to say about the intake. Stay tuned...

[BillyGman]

I know nothing about the intake that you guys are talking about, but here's a little warning for ya:

I'm an aircraft mechanic, and I work w/magnesium parts every day. I install liners, bushings, and bearings in magnesium Housings, as well as in Aluminum and steel parts also. Because of that I have to heat up the parts in order to press fit the hardware in it since it's an intereference fit. Aircraft use many parts that are made from Magnesium because it's a very light metal. Why am I telling you all of this? Because Magnesium expands and contracts much more than steel and Aluminum does, and does so at a different rate than those other metals do. So I'd be very leary about installing a Mag intake since the engine block is Aluminum. You might be able to get away w/it for some racing applications where the engines are constantly being ripped apart and overhauled anyway. But for the street your asking for trouble. Namely coolant leaks, and possibly oil leaks as well.

[Silver_04]

Here's a pic of the intake.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ctt9/images/FR500intakeM.jpg

This thing came out on the FR500 Mustang a couple of years ago and it showed up again later on the FR100 pick-up. I've only seen it on one car in person at Kenny Brown's shop. Steeda has a bit of information on it (and they are the source of the pic). Hopefully Ford did their homework so the metal differences don't cause any issues.

www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/FR500intake.htm

Corvettes have magnesium wheels as an option. I know the wheels don't see the temperature induced stresses that the engine compartment does but they see road trash and such and I substantial loads under acceleration, braking and turning.

[BillyGman]

I almost forgot....what's more is that Mag is much softer and fragile than other metals too. After a long time of service it can and often will crack. This isn't an issue on race cars or on aircraft since both applications are often overhauled. The parts are checked (magnafluxed for aircraft) and replaced as needed. But street cars are a whole different story..........bad idea......... Don't do it!!!!!

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by Silver_'04
Hopefully Ford did their homework so the metal differences don't cause any issues.

Don't count on Ford doing their homework.......my brother is a police officer, and he used to tell me how the 96 Crown Vics always smelled of coolant, and how they went to a intake manifold beginning that year that was made of some type of plastic.

[Silver_04]

Yes the plastic intake has quite a reputation in Mustang circles. Ford did eventually get that corrected there is now a metal collar at the location that used to crack and it hasn't been a problem since the late '90's. My '02 GT had the updated intake and I had 0 problems. Magnesium is used in many automotive applications and if designed and executed properly should not cause any trouble.

[BillyGman]

let us all know how your car is when you've driven around for about 10K miles w/that thing on it.........

[Petrograde]

I'm an aircraft mechanic too. The first thing I thought about was how flammable magnesium can be. If that stuff catches on fire, you can write off the whole car! Water will not put out a magnesium fire, adding water will make it explode. I learned this the hard way in the Army, it's amazing I wasn't injured!

Also, I wonder what they use as a barrier between the aluminum and magnesium to prevent galvanic corrosion? I wouldn't trust the stuff I'm used to working with (zinc chromate, epoxy polyamide, etc) to withstand that kind of heat.

Another thing, Like BillyGman said, this stuff is very brittle. It would definitely need to be tested. I used to inspect components for cracks. I'll bet better than 50% of the magnesium components I tested were bad.

Magnesium parts are definitely limited use parts.

Tom

[Silver_04]

Good input on the metal guys-thanks. But, magensium is already used throughout the automotive industry and if it is suitable for high stress aero applications why not automotive applications. Somehow GM was able to figure out magnesium for Corvette wheels and they overcame issues regarding paint, mounting the wheels to the hubs dynamic loading and brake heat. I'm not totally sold on the intake but that's why I posted here. Hopefully someone with some actual experience with this intake can enlighten us.

[BillyGman]

you've read my previous threads all the way through, or perhaps I'm failing to explain this fully. But Petrograde has also made some very accurate points. if you've heated up MAG parts in an oven for over a decade every day, then you would understand what I'm talking about. Magnesium wheels have nothing to do w/this whatsoever. they aren't heated. magnesium expands waaaaay more than Aluminum does when exposed to as little as 250 degrees(F.). And I'm not just getting that out of some book. I live and breath this stuff every day. The aircraft industry is waaaay ahead of any auto manufacture. They have to be since these things fly. On the aircraft, you don't have aluminum mated to Magnesium where there has to be an oil seal or coolant seal.

[Petrograde]

magnesium is already used throughout the automotive industry and if it is suitable for high stress aero applications why not automotive applications

It will work in automotive applications, but it won't last a hell of a long time.


GM was able to figure out magnesium for Corvette wheels and they overcame issues regarding paint, mounting the wheels to the hubs dynamic loading and brake heat.

Magnesium wheels work because the heat is not directly applied to the wheels, the steel brake rotors absorb a lot of it.

I'm not trying to talk you out of this mod, ... I just wanted you to know the hazards.

Tom

[BillyGman]

I am trying to talk you out of it, but only for your own good. Please read my previous post. I've been employed by the Aircraft industry for 23 years. I'm not getting this stuff off of some website or from some class at college. It's what i do for a living Brutha.......

[Silver_04]

I have read your posts completely and I understand your posts. I understand you have much experience with magnesium in your line of work and I'm not questioning that. Because I am not convinced by your statements that this intake could cause trouble doesn't mean I haven't grasped your concepts and as you said you don't know anything about this intake so I'm looking for people that do and I will continue to question comments made not pertaining directly to the intake. You might also want to rethink that wheels not getting heated bit. Ever touched a wheel after agressive driving and braking? Considering a wheel is a dynamic part undergoing lateral stresses and such I figure it would be more prone to material failure. If I wanted to learn materials over today I would have gotten out my MSE textbooks-let's not lose sight that this thread was to see if the intake will even fit-we aren't even close to mechanics of materials yet in the investigation.

You have already made up your mind on this issue and I don't understand why you are so persistant trying to convince me that this intake is trouble waiting to happen at this point. I guess I should say thanks for looking out for a fellow Marauder and I will certainly keep your concerns in mint but let's get the full scoop on this thing.

[BillyGman]

I don't want to hog this thread, and ofcourse I respect your wishes to look for some other comments on this. So I'll stay clear of this thread. But before I leave I'll make mention of the fact that wheels do NOT have to be bolted to a mating part that has to hold fluids such as oil, and coolant. Wheels butt up against brake calipers, and/or brake drums, and there isn't a gasket that has to seal the two parts.;) and after awhile if you start getting coolant or oil leaks, then you'll have to go back to the drawing board in your quest to ENGINEER a better product, because that's what you're doing here. And you can't expect Ford to come running to your rescue if that happens. That's fine if that's what you want, but I just want other people who might follow suit to know that as well.

[Silver_04]

Profound-airplanes fly and wheel don't have fluids running through them. I not trying to get people to hop on the get a magnesuim intake bandwagon and I fully know that Ford is not going to help out if I have problems. No one here is trying to engineer a better or different piece at this point. I appreciate your concern but I like most people here are capable of making informed decisions on my own.

[BillyGman]

how this manifold works out for you should you decide to use it. Especially if it's pure MAG w/out other metals mixed in ......that is if you can be honest enough to admit what happens good or bad. I can relate to your quest to make the big merc faster. I've done some extreme MODS myself. Atleast they are extreme in some people's eyes. I'm sorry if I've offended you. That wasn't my intent at all. It'sjust that the examples you gave weren't applicable. I'm here to learn and help just like I'm sure that you are. Good luck to you.......you've bought one of the coolest cars around;)

[Petrograde]

You might also want to rethink that wheels not getting heated bit. Ever touched a wheel after agressive driving and braking? Considering a wheel is a dynamic part undergoing lateral stresses and such I figure it would be more prone to material failure

Yes, they get hot. but, they are open to outside air to cool them, and they are not a solid piece mated to a hot engine block, allowing them to dissipate the heat. I'd bet that those wheels are alloyed with aluminum and zinc, then heat treated to take care of the lateral stress. But, I still think BillyGman made a very good point about dissimilar metals creating an oil/coolant seal. IMHO it'll run like a top! .... for a little while before it fails.

I see by your profile that you are an engineer. I'm not trying to insult you. As mechanics, BillyGman and myself were just trying to give you a heads up. If you are offended I sincerely apologize, that was definitely not my intention!

As far as the intake fitting on the Marauder's engine,... I think that it would. If I am correct in assuming that the only difference between the Cobra DOHC and the Marauder DOHC is one block is iron and the other block is aluminum.

Can anyone tell us if this is, in fact, the only difference?

Tom

[RCSignals]

Are you sure that intake is pure magnesium? I think that would be odd if it is not an aluminum/magnesium alloy.

[BillyGman]

then it might be okay to use(although personaly I'd pass) but if it's Mag only, stay away!!!!!!

[Silver_04]

No offense taken at all. I enjoy a good discussion from multiple points of view but I was getting frustrated with the stay away from magnesium mentality without anyone knowing anything about this intake. I said magnesium in my opening thread because all that I can find about the intake material is that it is cast magnesium. As someone else brought up, could this be an alloy? Perhaps, and I am trying to find out if it is an alloy or pure (though I highly doubt it) but I haven't heard back from Ford Racing.

My examples were perfectly applicable to the situation here. While examples of mating dissimilar metals together bring concerns about leaks, y'all also spoke of fatigue and cracking (justifying very routine maintenance on planes and race cars) which is why I brought up magnesium (mag.) wheels. While wheels have a cooler ambient environment than an intake I am very sure they see lateral/impact stresses/forces an intake would never see therefore I am relating that to fatigue/cracking/failure. If magnesium expands and contracts so much what’s going on at the hub of a wheel that is heating and cooling? I’d be more concerned about a wheel that doesn’t fit properly or might crack during temperature cycling than a coolant leak. If a wheel, exposed to air for cooling, is heat treated to deal with the demands put on it, why not do the same for an intake, which has coolant running through it to remove heat. Dissimilar metals are used all over the place in an engine (think about it) and magnesium is becoming more prevalent in the auto industry and the standards to which we test to may not be to the same level as the aero industry but it’s probably more vigorous than you think. Aluminum heads on a steel block-those work so why not a magnesium intake and aluminum heads with proper gasketing and compounds? Some of you seem so sure magnesium is not used in automotive applications where fluids have to pass or that it won’t last. What if it’s in the Marauder? I know someone that would want to buy one of yours. Just as an example take a look at an older 60’s technology VW engine, it might just surprise you.

I agree there might be issues with leaks and fit and some excellent points were made, but many replies were to stay away from magnesium period without any knowledge of the abilities of this intake.

As for this intake fitting the Marauder, the Marauder intake inlet is on the driver side. The intake for a Mustang is on the passenger side, which is why I started this thread in the first place-the intake, or the top of the intake, at least needs to be turned around for a Marauder. I have received some positive information from some users of this intake (and they have no vested interest because they only use them-they don’t sell them), but the quest for additional information continues. If I get such an intake of course I’ll post my experiences with it here. If it’s a good one, great. However, if it’s a bad one I wouldn’t want anyone to go through the trouble I did. Isn’t that the point of this forum?

[BillyGman]

concern w/the idea of an all magnesium intake manifold(IF that's what it is) would be it's ability to be sealed w/a gasket of any kind IF it's mated up to another metal such as Aluminum(cyclinder heads) since Magnesium expands more when it's heated than aluminum does. But let us know if you find out more about what that manifold actually IS made of. I'm not so sure that Magnesium can be heat treated. Now that doesn't neccessarily have to mean that it can't, but I've never heard of that. if you needed a metal to be strong, durable, or hard, then you usually wouldn't opt for such a soft metal like Magnesium. But this is speculation on my part.
And BTW, you mentioned an engine block being steel? I've never heard of that. Is there such a thing? I only know of aluminum blocks, and cast iron blocks. The only time that I've ever heard of steel being mentioned for an engine block is an aluminum block having steel sleeves installed in the cyclinders.

[Papabear]

Just thought I would offer my opinion. I looked at the intake when I had my 99 Cobra. A buddy of mine here in town has one on his 2001 Cobra. I do not think there is any way to flip the intake to work on the marauder. If you are looking for better airflow from the intake I had the one on my Cobra ported and polished. I think for a all out race engine that is supercharged the FR500 intake may be better but if you are looking for just a gain in airflow the porting and polishing may be a better and cheaper way to go.
As for the whole discussion of what it's made of and the problems associated with it. Please keep in mind that this is a Ford Racing product. This is not some intake someone made in there garage. This part went through all of the new product and durability testing that Ford puts all of there new products through. I think it's pretty safe to say by this time Ford can make a intake manifold for one of there engines that won't fail anytime soon.

John..

[BillyGman]

assumption on your part. No? Look at that plastic intake manifold on the 96 Crown Vics that i previously mentioned in this thread. I guess Ford didn't do their homework w/that before putting it into production.........

[Silver_04]

I should have said cast iron and not steel-my bad. As for the plastic intake, and as I have already stated, Ford came up with a robust solution and offered a fix free of charge. Guess is synonymous with assume so it is assumed Ford didn’t do its homework hence cracking intakes. Unfortunately problems sometime arise no matter how much testing was done. Heck, I have already had my Marauder in for three warranty repairs in two weeks and how long has this Panther platform been around (only one was Marauder specific)? But, since we are on the topic of a company doing its homework Billy, what’s this I hear about Boeing 777 windshields CRACKING in flight? Crazy engineers, must have put magnesium in the darn things and then tested them to automotive standards.

If it were just more air flow that I was after, I would definitely port and polish. However, since the FR500 has that variable intake function I’m going after the much desired low-end torque never mind I just think it is a slick piece.

Papabear-did you pal like the FR500? Any noticeable perf gains?

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by Silver_'04
But, since we are on the topic of a company doing its homework Billy, what’s this I hear about Boeing 777 windshields CRACKING in flight?

I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood me....first off, because I'm a performance buff like you obviously are, I'd like to hear more about this "dual" action of this manifold that you're talking about even though I highly doubt that I'd ever take a chance w/a Magnesium manifold.
Secondly, I'm not here to defend the aircraft industry nor would I ever do so. I'm employed at Sikorsky Aircraft which happens to manufacture Helicopters mostly for the armed forces rather than for commercial use. And what I'm sure that you don't understand is that because I see sooooo many failures and negligence in the production process of aircraft beginning from head engineers passing off bogus harware from vendors owned by their relatives as being A-1, to Quality control managers looking the other way and sweeping their departments failures under the carpet, I WOULD NEVER attempt to defend any big factory of any aircraft. And that is just one of the reasons why I've tried to warn you about having sooo much faith in Ford or in any other car manufacture by telling yourself that an intake design MUST be a winner, simply because your favorite car manufacture has come out w/it.:rolleyes: The other reason why I've attempted to give you a friendly warning(although it hasn't been taken by you as FRIENDLY) is because like I've previously stated, I've worked w/Magnesium parts for years on an every day basis which happens to involve the heating of this material. And again it isn't even applicable for you to make mention of the fact that Ford has replaced plastic manifolds free of charge, because the Magnesium manifold that you're speaking of here does NOT come stock on any Marauder, therefore any problem that you might encounter w/it will NEVER be taken care of by Ford since they nebver designed it for your car in the first place. So I think it would be best for us to stick w/the idea of you finding out more about this manifold. Yes?

[Papabear]

Yes he liked the intake. Looking at it reminds me of the 98 and older Cobra manifolds with the IMRC plates. Torque was supposed to be there function on the Cobras. After the intake install he said the car pulled better but it was not just a "oh my god" increse in power. I don't have Dyno numbers as a before and after though. With the price of the intake being so high I don't know that it is the best option. If you were all out of things to upgrade then maybe. But for the price of the intake alone you could do enough modifications to your car to make it a good performer. Unless they have come down considerably you could almost do a stroker conversion on your car for about the same price. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I'll try my best to answer.

[Silver_04]

Papabear-did your buddy have the FR500 heads too, or any kind of head work done? How about exhaust?

[Papabear]

No head work just stock 2001 Cobra heads. Car has BBK long tube headers, no cats and Flowmaster mufflers.

[Silver_04]

I've been told that the FR500 intake will probably require an involved retuning of the computer and one of the guys I contacted told me just to get a S/C.

Papabear-You in Nashville or in the surrounding area? I used to live in Mt. Juliet.

[Papabear]

Originally posted by Silver_'04
I've been told that the FR500 intake will probably require an involved retuning of the computer and one of the guys I contacted told me just to get a S/C.

Papabear-You in Nashville or in the surrounding area? I used to live in Mt. Juliet.

Yes you would need to get the chip reburned. Or if you do not have a chip you would need to get one. I looked at the price they are going for now. For that much I would spend a little more and buy a stroker kit for the engine if you just want to stay N/A. If you just want more power the supercharger kits are out there. And another option is Nitrous. You have to fill the bottle but you could fill it alot for the price of that intake.

Yes I live in Thompsons Station. It's between Franklin and Spring Hill.

[Papabear]

Originally posted by Silver_'04
I've been told that the FR500 intake will probably require an involved retuning of the computer and one of the guys I contacted told me just to get a S/C.

Papabear-You in Nashville or in the surrounding area? I used to live in Mt. Juliet.

Yes you would need to get the chip reburned. Or if you do not have a chip you would need to get one. I looked at the price they are going for now. For that much I would spend a little more and buy a stroker kit for the engine if you just want to stay N/A. If you just want more power the supercharger kits are out there. And another option is Nitrous. You have to fill the bottle buy you could fill it alot for the price of that intake.

Yes I live in Thompsons Station. It's between Franklin and Spring Hill.