4.10 gears installed [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

Logan

07-18-2002, 03:30 PM

Well, just picked my car up from the shop and the 4.10's are in. Didn't have time to do the tint today, so I'm going back tomorrow for the tint job.

Verdict? I was right. 4.10's are exactly what the car should've come with from the factory. While it still won't send the tires up in smoke off the line without a brake stand, it definately comes out of the hole ALOT quicker.

The factory shift points seem like they were programmed for the 4.10's in mind... The whole powertrain seems alot more confident and I'm able to keep the motor in it's power band quite a bit easier.

At a 70mph cruise, rpm's in 4th are up about 350rpm from stock. Stick it into 3rd, and she pops right into the start of the power band at 3400rpm...

Verdict? Bypass the 3.73's and head straight for the 4.10's. You'll be alot happier spending the $700 it costs on 4.10's. Best part is, the wife will never notice unless she puts the peddle down to the floor.

There ya have it.

MarauderMike

07-18-2002, 03:43 PM

Does the speedometer appear to be correct or was there a change done? I saw Dennis' note about the sensor being in the ABS pick up but wanted your view now that the 4.10 is in since there seemed to be some question as to the speed pickup point

Logan

07-18-2002, 03:48 PM

The speedo looked bang on to me and with 4.10's versus 3.55's, it'd be pretty obvious that it was out by 10mph or more fast, so I'm confident saying yes, it's accurate.

But just to be 100% sure it's correct, I'll go out with a buddy tomorrow morning and pace his car going at 60 and 80 mph.

Dennis and I now agree, after confirming with Ford that the system does not use a tranny speed sensor, but uses the average wheel speed from the 4 ABS sensors to calculate current speed.

WJSOLOMON

07-18-2002, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Logan:"Well, just picked my car up from the shop and the 4.10's are in. Didn't have time to do the tint today, so I'm going back tomorrow for the tint job. Verdict? I was right. 4.10's are exactly what the car should've come with from the factory. While it still won't send the tires up in smoke off the line without a brake stand, it definately comes out of the hole ALOT quicker. The factory shift points seem like they were programmed for the 4.10's in mind... The whole powertrain seems alot more confident and I'm able to keep the motor in it's power band quite a bit easier. At a 70mph cruise, rpm's in 4th are up about 350rpm from stock. Stick it into 3rd, and she pops right into the start of the power band at 3400rpm...Verdict? Bypass the 3.73's and head straight for the 4.10's. You'll be alot happier spending the $700 it costs on 4.10's. Best part is, the wife will never notice unless she puts the peddle down to the floor. There ya have it."

Logan - Very happy to learn that Dennis Reinhart has felt so welcomed herein, that he has agreed to become such an informative and supportive Member. With the two of you continuing to inform, inspire, and lead we inquisitive Marauder Owners, will easily guarnantee additional enhanced experiences with the gradual improvements in our Cars, and allow them to become the Best that they can be. We could borrow from the current slogan used by Lexus to accurately describe our Mission Statement: "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection!"

How were you able to work out the details to have your Rear Gears upgraded from the OEM's, to the Upgraded 4.10's? Does this change in any way invalidate your New Car Warranty?

Is your next few steps to further Performance Upgrade Enhancement Process with the two Chips and Matrix Drive Shaft from Dennis?

Thanks again for all of your commitmate, and assistance in bringing so much to the table, in these matters.

Logan

07-18-2002, 04:57 PM

Thanks for the comments. The Marauder uses the same 8.8" differential used in the Mustangs, so you can order the 4.10 ring and pinion through Ford Motorsport, which is what I did. My Mercury dealer is a Ford Motorsport dealer as well so the parts counter just ordered em in for me. My dealership's techs did the work for me.

The only thing that would be affected by me replacing the gears would be the gears themselves. In other words, I won't be covered if the gears explode into a million bits. That's about the only effect of swapping gears. I personally have changed gears in a number of vehicles and had them in for warranty service afterwards, and never had word one said about it. Once was for replacement of prematurely worn clutch packs in the diff of my Lightning, again, not a word.

I'm also good friends with the GM at my dealership and get treated very well at the dealer, I know most of the staff on a first name basis. Not everyone will have a relationship with their dealer like I do, but rest assured that no dealer I deal with would blink twice if I told them I swapped gears.

As for my next mods, a chip from Dennis is on the way and I'll be installing a tranny temp gauge where the cigarette lighter currently is along with a tranny cooler if necessary...

Impala SS AutoX

07-18-2002, 05:17 PM

Have you run the car up enough in MPH yet to see if there are driveshaft issues with the 4.10s?

I know that on the SS, one of the issues that often "bites ya" after doing gears is that the driveshaft RPMS are now high enough to cause driveshaft balance problems. It is because the critical speed of the shaft gets exceeded, and the shaft CAN'T be balanced at that high an RPM.

The solution is a bigger diameter driveshaft, often (but not always) out of aluminum or MMC.

Since this is a known issue with the Marauder (hence the 117 MPH factory speed limiter), I wouldn't be surprised if this was a factor in Ford not puttng 3.73s, 3.90s, or 4.10s in there from the get-go (besides the whole CAFE issue).

I'll bet an aftermarket driveshaft is available for the Marauder before the fall :D

Jim

07-18-2002, 06:01 PM

Speaking of that driveshaft, is the (apparently aluminum) shaft in the Marauder the same unit that's in 'regular' panther-platform cars?

-Jim

Logan

07-18-2002, 07:30 PM

The marauder driveshaft is a aluminum unit very similar to the one used on the Lightning.

I've had the speed quite up there and haven't noticed any problems, certainly not through 100mph. Besides, if you're planning on going that fast, there are more pressing concerns than driveshaft vibration, which I personally don't think is an issue at all based on my limited experience.

We had the same "driveshaft vibration" reports from the 2nd gen Lightnings, which also use a aluminum driveshaft, and being an owner who hotlapped Texas Motor Speedway in his lightning at 140+mph, let me tell you, there was no driveline vibration at all.

Anyway, my point is, you can't worry about a problem until it's been encountered, and to date, I haven't, so I won't. :)

Larry Vogel

07-18-2002, 07:53 PM

Glad to hear it went well. If it leaves the line hard and strong without spinning it's a perfect match. I don't know anyone who won the stoplight 1/4 spinning their tire's.

Dennis Reinhart

07-18-2002, 07:56 PM

I have the gears in stock and I will get the shafts as I start getting orders. I will post pictures of the shaft tomorrow. Since the speed is taken from the ABS sensors there will be no adverse effect in going to 4:10 but if you change tire size then it can be corected with my chip.

tetsu

07-19-2002, 02:43 AM

Logan,

Did the gears require any software adjustments at all?

Or, they just pop them in the diff and off you go?

It's good that the tires didnt start spinning.

Johnny

Logan

07-19-2002, 06:46 AM

No software adjustments whatsoever. Pop em in and go. I'm about to go confirm my speedo accuracy by pacing a buddy in another car.

b4z

07-19-2002, 09:10 AM

Dennis,

Does anybody make a lower first and second gear for the Ford transmission?

SSMOKEM

07-19-2002, 10:03 AM

Hey Logan,

Without a doubt you did the right thing :D

Do you have any plans for the torque converter?

Fourth Horseman

07-19-2002, 10:12 AM

Wow, excellent news, Logan. Thanks! I'm going to inquire with my dealership and see how they feel about the warranty issue. if they're cool with it then I'll have them get the gears and do the work, too.

Thanks again, Logan. We appreciate you being our test platform.

Logan

07-19-2002, 01:06 PM

Minor problem encountered this morning, my speedo is definately not right. My tech couldn't look at it today, but is confident something else is up. He's insisting that the PCM should update itself for the gear ratio.

I'll keep you posted. Either way, not a big deal, I'll be testing some reinhart chips tomorrow which can easily override the gear ratio if need be.

WJSOLOMON

07-19-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Logan: "Minor problem encountered this morning, my speedo is definately not right. My tech couldn't look at it today, but is confident something else is up. He's insisting that the PCM should update itself for the gear ratio.I'll keep you posted. Either way, not a big deal, I'll be testing some reinhart chips tomorrow which can easily override the gear ratio if need be."

Logan - Thanks for the advice on the probable 'Typo' in regard to the reference to use of "XL-2" Additive on Page #204 of the OM, as opposed to "XL-3" on Page #203. I agree on the use of the "XL-3".

If your Dealer installed your Rear End Gears, will he also install your Chips?

Consider going one extra mile and getting a Garmin Hand-Held GPS to accurately track your speed.

When my replacement Marauder comes in, you and Dennis have convinced me to mirror your Performance Enhancement Upgrades, i.e. Chips, Drive Shaft, and Rear Axle, and hope that by then, there are some available After-Market Dedicated Severe Winter Driving Tires available.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

MarauderMike

07-22-2002, 02:09 PM

Logan, did you get an answer from your dealer about the speedo accuracy issue? I had the 4.10 put in today but haven't had a chance to work with it yet to see if it's off, I believe just from feel that it is. Interested in knowing what the dealer said, although I plan on ordering a chip from Dennis later in the week

Logan

07-22-2002, 04:10 PM

I'm waiting for a trim piece that was special ordered to arrive before I take it back in. Two birds, one stone kinda thing.

As soon as I learn something, I'll advise. Just have Dennis program the chip for 4.10's in the mean time.

FYI, It'll be approximately 10mph off, so at 50mph, you're doing 40mph. At 90mph, you're doing around 77mph.

MarauderMike

07-22-2002, 04:51 PM

Thanks Logan, that's about how it feels but we're having so many thunderstorms up here tonight really can't get out and drive to find out for sure.

mensrea

07-23-2002, 05:05 AM

OK gentlemen, my car is going in for 4.10s this Friday. I have a couple of questions, what RPMs are you running at around 70 - 80. I know someone said it was about 350 RPMs higher, is that correct? Mike, does the car feel a lot different, was it worth it? Logan, have you gotten the chips in from Dennis yet, did it correct the speedo error? I LOVE THIS CAR

Logan

07-23-2002, 06:29 AM

At 70mph, in overdrive, stock, you'll be turning 2044 rpm. Same thing with 4.10 gears, you'll be turning 2360rpm.
At 80mph, in overdrive, stock, you'll be turning 2336 rpm. Same thing with 4.10 gears, you'll be turning 2698rpm.

At 70, in 3rd gear, stock is 2920. With 4.10's, it'll be 3372
At 80, in 3rd gear, stock is 3337. With 4.10's, it'll be 3854

I don't have the fix chip yet. I should today and will advise. I'm sure it'll fix the problem though. It's pretty much a no-brainer fix for Dennis to do. Simple stuff.

MarauderMike

07-23-2002, 12:08 PM

Yes, you can feel the difference with the 4.10 gear installed. As you would expect the RPM's come up much quicker. I am calling Dennis in a few minutes to have him send me a chip, not only to resolve the speedo issue but I should see a difference on the initial standing start. A friend loaned me his g-tech today hopefully I'll have some times later on tonight for a 0-60 run. Lousy rain was been so bad when I picked the car up I haven't had time to really check it out yet. But first impression is the 4.10 is the right gear for the car.

mensrea

07-23-2002, 12:31 PM

Thanks Mike. I just ordered my gears and chip from Dennis and hope to have them in by the end of the week or start of next. I would love to hear your 0-60 times as well as 1/4. I hope to do a before and after dyno/drag test with gears as well as chip. Will post.

Logan

07-23-2002, 02:11 PM

Just to let everyone know, the chip I received from Dennis today resolved my speedometer discrepency.

With my 4.10's and Dennis' chip, my speedo is correct. When I go to the dealer, I'll let them figure out why it's not correct without the chip in there and advise when I hear back from them.

But, in the mean time, running Dennis' chip solves the problem. You never appreciate your speedometer until it isn't working right. Now that my speedo is back in working order, I couldn't be happier.

MarauderMike

07-23-2002, 06:29 PM

Ok, so you all know how bad I am at this, this was my first time working witha g-tech. I only had time to make three runs best run from idle to 60 was 6.80, ok, shoot me!
Hopefully I'll have more time later in the week to try some runs and get a better feel for it. I ordered the chip from Dennis today, so hopefully have it for the weekend to play with.

Jim

07-23-2002, 08:02 PM

Crimminy, Mike;

Best I could get with my Tazzo was a 7.45 (2.45 60ft) 0-60. 6.80 seems pretty damned peppy for a stock marauder.

Thursday for my dyno visit, with the chip in hand, hopefully.

-Jim

MarauderMike

07-24-2002, 03:40 AM

Ah, remember Jim, I do have the 4.10 gear in already. I'll keep trying.:D

Jim

07-24-2002, 05:21 AM

Aha! Then my 3.55 equipped Mo is apparently a real fireball @ 7.45!

My best times, as is common in my experience with automatics, started with just a bit of wheelspin... Wheelspin is fun.

-Jim

Jim

07-26-2002, 06:45 PM

4.10's installed today....

If you haven't done this yet, I recommend it. To reiterate the position Logan stated; they really do seem to 'fit' the car better. The trans seems more positive, and the car is certainly much more 'sprightly' around town.

I am a bit concerned about exhaust 'drone' at highway speeds... The exhaust system obviously reaches a set of harmonic resonance peaks starting around 2300 RPM, the new 'highway cruising' count... We'll see if it grows tedious; if so, then it'll just spur my exhaust mods, I suppose!

Go.
Buy.
Gears.

-Jim

james_hart6

09-23-2002, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Logan
With my 4.10's and Dennis' chip, my speedo is correct. When I go to the dealer, I'll let them figure out why it's not correct without the chip in there and advise when I hear back from them...

Logan,

My dealer's looking into gear availability and pricing; was the speedo problem ever resolved, or was the performance chip the only solution? My service advisor doesn't seem to be adverse to modifying my MM - I think he and the wrench crew would like to get one to play with...

Thanks!

Jim

Logan

09-23-2002, 03:40 PM

Your gears should be no more than $199 through ford motorsport. I havent' resolved the speedo issue yet. You don't have to get a performance burn. You can get a stock chip with gear ratio modifier if necessary.

Dennis Reinhart

09-23-2002, 04:37 PM

I have them for 180.00 plus shipping

Logan

09-23-2002, 06:21 PM

Well there ya go! Get em from Dennis! :)

james_hart6

09-23-2002, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
I have them for 180.00 plus shipping

Dennis, do you have any contacts or recommendations for an installer anywhere near Detroit? I've got an idea that the dealer isn't going to love me for bringing in my own parts...and the speed shops that I frequented in the mid-sixties are long since gone. ;)

Thanks!

Jim

Logan

09-24-2002, 05:40 AM

Jim,

They should be ok. Dennis sells the exact same gear set that the dealership would be getting for you anyway from Ford Motorsport...

james_hart6

09-25-2002, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Logan
Jim,

They should be ok. Dennis sells the exact same gear set that the dealership would be getting for you anyway from Ford Motorsport...

Thanks, Logan. I'm on the road (again) and will check with the dealer when I get a free moment.

But as long as I'm gittin' th' gears, it only makes sense to get the performance chip so the speedo will be accurate ;)

If I can just schedule some time...

Jim

Kevyn

09-25-2002, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by james_hart6
Dennis, do you have any contacts or recommendations for an installer anywhere near Detroit? I've got an idea that the dealer isn't going to love me for bringing in my own parts...and the speed shops that I frequented in the mid-sixties are long since gone. ;)

Thanks!

Jim

Jim,

I'm not sure where you live but a lot of folks go to DTS (586) 779-2608 for rear gear service. They're on Groesbeck near 696.

I know of 2 places Downriver that do good work as well. Jolly Transmission in Lincoln Park does good work. Joe's Rite-Way in Wyandotte does good work too. He did my brothers 3.73's and they are still silent after 2 years.

james_hart6

09-25-2002, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Kevyn
Jim,
...They're on Groesbeck near 696....
Jolly Transmission in Lincoln Park does good work. Joe's Rite-Way in Wyandotte does good work too.

Kevyn,

Yeeow! I'm in Warren, right up the road from 696! Thanks for the lead.

I'm booked the next couple of weeks - but maybe by late October I can get somethin' going.

Jim

Brian

09-26-2002, 03:27 PM

Just to let everyone know, the Marauder DOES pick up it's speedo information from the transmission output shaft speed sensor, and does not look to the ABS sensors for ground speed. Conclusion - If you change the rear end ratio, the stock PCM does not compensate for the change in the speedometer display.

Also, the parameter in the stock calibration that gives the "multiplier" to convert outpus shaft RPM to mph is not updatable by the equipment that a dealer has.

I know this conflicts what was mentioned earlier in the note thread, but my I'm pretty confident in my source.

Dennis Reinhart

09-26-2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Brian
Just to let everyone know, the Marauder DOES pick up it's speedo information from the transmission output shaft speed sensor, and does not look to the ABS sensors for ground speed. Conclusion - If you change the rear end ratio, the stock PCM does not compensate for the change in the speedometer display.

Also, the parameter in the stock calibration that gives the "multiplier" to convert outpus shaft RPM to mph is not updatable by the equipment that a dealer has.

I know this conflicts what was mentioned earlier in the note thread, but my I'm pretty confident in my source.

http://pstr-m05.ygpweb.aol.com/data2/005/5F/39/50/2A/X6n5UmvS21tzNHbJYpW9pSiryKAVCJ rq0180.jpg

Brian is right, I found out today, so the bottom line is no problem we corect it with a chip. There is no Speed sensor like the older 4R70W's
Here is the answer for those of you that have been waiting. There is an output shaft sensor, the older 4R70W has both a speed sensor and output shaft sensor, The Marauder only has the output shaft sensor, the speedometer on the Marauder has two data lines coming from the EEC, the EEC derives the cars speed from the output shaft sensor, so what has happened with the installation of 4:10's the transmissions tail shaft is spinning faster, so the Speedo is off, now if you did not want to install my chip you could buy the Speedo sensor, install it run the wires to the Speedo head cut the wires from the EEC and install the correct Speedo gear, to me that's nuts just buy the chip it will calibrate for the increased tail shaft output, and enjoy the awsome improvment

http://pstr-m01.ygpweb.aol.com/data2/006/01/7B/8E/18/jXHYACxqDaqD1xDUgrXqjCpUACixr4 cW0180.jpg

Dennis Reinhart

09-26-2002, 05:53 PM

KSMM03

09-26-2002, 06:14 PM

Logan,

Seeing how everything is working well with the gear swap, are there any adverse affects of it? I think I was reading another post somewhere and it mentioned gear noises?

I guess I'm asking, other than the loss of a few MPG's is/are there any drawbacks to making the change?

I'm going slow and haven't done much to the car yet, other than tinting the windows, and wheel locks....sooo....any other info on this swap would be appreciative.

Dennis Reinhart

09-26-2002, 07:10 PM

If the rear end is set up corect, with MOTORSPORT gears there should be no noise, I use the Ford Rotunda 8.8 tool and its perfect every time

james_hart6

09-26-2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
Yes Jim call me

Will do.

Jim

mensrea

09-26-2002, 07:54 PM

Dennis is right on, only install Ford gears, the suppliers will even tell you that the non Ford may "hum" so buy the Ford Racing gears, and have a good shop install them. I don't know anyone that boughht Ford gears and had them installed by a decent shop that experiences hum...

The only down side to installing the 4.10s is you can't wipe the grin from your face... Now imagine what it would be like with more torque and horse power!

Logan

09-26-2002, 08:03 PM

Nope, no problems with the 4.10's. I'd do it again in a heartbeat and highly recommend it. Chip n gears is definately the best money spent on marauder...

I have a sneaky suspicion a stall convertor will have a very healthy bang/buck quoient too...

KSMM03

09-29-2002, 07:43 AM

So, you're saying, install the 4.10's and the chip. Will the dealer (ya think) install the chip, or is this something I'm going to have to do on my own.

I'd like to think I'm somewhat mechanicaly inclined after fixing tanks for eleven years, but on the other hand don't want to fry anything like I did when I tried to install a cd rom writer on my computer.

I eagerly await your suggestions and reply.:rolleyes: