Teach me big body suspension ... please

[gdsqdcr]

Okay, so I am not new to suspension mods ... my 94 SHO would corner with most Porsche's. Well modified, and on adjusted struts, rode like a buckboard! :help:

But, this 2004 boat that I now drive, handles like boat on a bad sea. I want it tighter ... so here come the questions.

What are the Watts bars and what to do they do besides lower the rear end?
Do we change sway bars and add strut bars to these things?
How hard is it to replace the air bags with springs and shocks (struts)?
My old SHO rode nice with the Koni adjustable struts on all four corners wrapped in Eibach springs. This lowered the car about an inch. It handled a lot better.
I see ads to replace the control arms, why so many ads? Failure part or modifiable part?

This portion of the modifications for the boat will take some time and alot of research on my part ...

I am sure I will have more questions once answers start coming.

Thanks!
Anthony
:D

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

What boat are you talking about? If you are talking about a Marauder then you haven't rode in a town car or grand marquis.

Cut the springs a coil in front and lower the rear air suspension a notch. I am planning on doing this soon.

[RR|Suki]

once I saw SHO that would handle with most Porsches I stopped reading

[gdsqdcr]

once I saw SHO that would handle with most Porsches I stopped reading

Why?

As for the boat comment, I was referring to the Marauder.

I am just looking to make the Marauder handle better than it currently does. A little tighter, stronger, stiffer ... I do not expect it to handle like my SHO, or a small little sports car ... but it can do better.

[Bradley G]

You make get more input from the collective if you hold back on the criticzems.
You can tighten up the rear with with control arms, Watts links and sway bars.
I have doubled up the stock C-arms & watts links, with nice results.
No fair on the comparo tho, Marauders will never handle like a Sho or a Porch.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

The Marauder is a boat, no doubt about it, a lot of weight, and a live axle. There are kits available to delete the rear air bags and replace with conventional coil springs. I had thought about it because I am not a huge fan of the ride quality from a pumped up air bag with a live axle, but, I would be afraid to lose the load leveling feature and drag ass. I think most people that give up on the air bags put coils in for increased reliability and decreased cost, rather than for a performance upgrade though.

[musclemerc]

Sounds like you should look into the Naake system, get the Addco swaybars, and a complete control arm and watts combo. ;)

[gdsqdcr]

Brad et all

There was no bad intent/insult with this post. I was not attempting to compare the SHO to the Marauder and then wondering why the Marauder can not do what the SHO can. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Or better yet, going over to a SHO forum and saying why can't the SHO run a 13 second quarter mile ... Two very different platforms with two very different purposes. I understand that very well.

Let me state clearly, I DO NOT know anything about big body suspension. What can be done to improve it or is it the best it can ever be. I do not know what a Watts Arm is or the benefit of a complete control arm and watts combo would do. I know a control arm but do not know what a watts arm is.
Also, what is the benefit of doubling up on the watts and C-arms?
Do folks change out sway bars or add strut bars?
Are Eibachs the 'go-to' springs for these vehicles or are the stock spring rates accepable once the struts are replaced in the front and the air bag addressed in the rear?

Musclemerc, I will look at a Naake system. First to figure it out and second to see if it will do what I want. Thank you for the info.

Thank you all for your time so far ...

Anthony

[dohc324ci]

GD,

Take a look at the links below for the suspension pieces you need to enhance your ride.

https://ssl111.webhosting.optonline.ne t/spartaperformance.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=32

http://www.naake.com/MercMarauder.html

[Mr. Man]

Well you need to get Myself, BigDogJim and ScCheesehead and we'll teach you all about Big Boy suspension over burgers and beers:D

[gdsqdcr]

Well you need to get Myself, BigDogJim and ScCheesehead and we'll teach you all about Big Boy suspension over burgers and beers:D

Where do you all live?
For you, :beer:
For BigDogJim:beer:
For ScCheesehead:beer:

[gdsqdcr]

GD,

Take a look at the links below for the suspension pieces you need to enhance your ride.

https://ssl111.webhosting.optonline.ne t/spartaperformance.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=32

http://www.naake.com/MercMarauder.html



WAIT. I think like Naake. 50 miles from the house ... Nice looking kits and I can understand all of those pieces. BUT

what is the Watts arm?
Why are folks replacing control arms on the Marauders?

[fastblackmerc]

Go with the following, will make the MM handle like it's on rails.

Addco sway bars front and rear (solid ones) - Much bigger thicker than stock

Metco upper and lower rear control arms - the stock ones look like they are
made out of tinfoil compared to the Metcos plus the bushings are harder.

Metco Watts link - see above

Use the search function, many posts on how-to's and why's.

[burt ragio]

The oem watts link & upper & lower control arms are thin wall stamped aluminum. The upgraded watts link by Metco keeps the rear axle from moving left to right. The Z&M or metco control arms allow far less flex. They each make a huge dif. The larger sway bars by Adcco will decrease body roll. As for the Naake coil over they are a breed alone. They will transform your quote "boat" into a beast on rails.

[Mr. Man]

Sparta performance is a sponsor here and they offer control arms and watts links in colors for less than Metco and I don't even know if you can get the Z&M anymore. Addco seems the way to go for sway bars.

[cougar9150]

I have the Metco but the Sparta's with the Delrin bushings would be the route I would take if I was buying again.

[Hotrauder]

Great advise above

Metco control arms and Watts Link

Addco solid, front and rear

Naake dual adjustable front and rear

Real tires with firm sidewalls....Nitto or equivalent

Lower the ride height

Get real brakes...Wilwood or Baer

Go road racing.....:D

Dennis

[jdando]

Great advise above

Metco control arms and Watts Link

Addco solid, front and rear

Naake dual adjustable front and rear

Real tires with firm sidewalls....Nitto or equivalent

Lower the ride height

Get real brakes...Wilwood or Baer

Go road racing.....:D

Dennis

Yeah, what he said!

[babbage]

The KDW's have a stiffer sidewall than the nittos from what I've read.


Plus 2 to ^^^ yeah what he said.

[gdsqdcr]

I am getting the impression that I should use an Addco sway bar ... :P

What size is everyone running in the rear and front? Does anyone know the stock size, so I don't have to crawl under and measure?

How is the ride height lowered in these? Naake springs, Eibachs?

As for tires, the BFG are almost new on this beast, can't justify the replacement of good rubber, yet ...

As for brakes, I am Baer guy ...

Thanks!
Anthony

[jdando]

Anthony, click on the links in my signature (in my first post in this thread). That will take you to a page with all the part information.

jeremy

[Mr. Man]

Addco rear is part #650 can't remember the front. Check out neverenoughauto they have a combo package for a decent price. Naake is a judgement thing. I have heard good and bad about their stuff, some guys love it some don't. I would suggest you research this carefully before you decide, do a thread search here and over on MCM for info.
Same thing on the Eibach lowering springs. I've heard the ride softens up a bit and it will be very difficult to get the alignment correct. You can get close but you may still have wear issues as you do now if you don't have the car-fixer specs for your current alignment.

[dohc324ci]

I am getting the impression that I should use an Addco sway bar ... :P

What size is everyone running in the rear and front? Does anyone know the stock size, so I don't have to crawl under and measure?

How is the ride height lowered in these? Naake springs, Eibachs?

As for tires, the BFG are almost new on this beast, can't justify the replacement of good rubber, yet ...

As for brakes, I am Baer guy ...

Thanks!
Anthony


Ok Anthony, I would be interested in the tires...LOL

[SpartaPerformance]

What are the Watts bars and what to do they do besides lower the rear end?
Do we change sway bars and add strut bars to these things?
How hard is it to replace the air bags with springs and shocks (struts)?
My old SHO rode nice with the Koni adjustable struts on all four corners wrapped in Eibach springs. This lowered the car about an inch. It handled a lot better.
I see ads to replace the control arms, why so many ads? Failure part or modifiable part?

:D

1: Watts bars keep the rear end centered under hard launching and cornering.
2: Addco makes a beautiful set of sway bars for these vehicles that make a noticeable difference in roll control for these cars. I don't think anybody makes a strut brace due to the fact it's a body on frame car so it's not prone to torsional twist like a subframe car.
3: Members replace the control arms because the factory units are stamped steal and twist under load, they also have soft rubber bushings that deflect power and rot away over time.

Metco units mentioned above are great but my arms and Watts are even better and a bit more cost friendly

[BigCars4Ever]

Watts arm attaches to the top of the differential housing and the left and right side of the frame. It serves the same purpose as a pan hard rod and keeps the axle centered between the frame. Unlike a pan hard rod it does not travel in an arc but allows the rear end to go straight up and down. In a stamped unit there is some flexing so the tube units and cnc'd units may offer some improvement in accuracy of tracking. The tubular control arms in the rear also help keep the rear end tracking straight by reducing the elongation and flexing that the stock units experience under acceleration and deceleration. I think the largest performance gains are in the wheels and tires. These cars have truck tires by todays standards. Wider and lower is what you should be after. Iv'e been toying with widening the rears and running a wider lower profile front and rear. 285 rear and 255 fronts with 40/35 profiles.

Also be aware that lowering the fronts will worsen the tire wear issues in the front. This Thanksgiving I plan on trying some frame modifications to help the tire wear issue and allow me to get rid of the extra camber. Not what you want for handling but I drive mostly highway these days and want to get more than 20k out of a set of fronts.

The Naake set up from what Iv'e heard is great but get the double adjusting model. Also I only have the rear Addco bar. I would like to get the front bar too but I hear it brings back the understeer that he rear bar helps to neutralize.

Iv'e rambled enough. Good luck.

[Mr. Man]

Watts arm attaches to the top of the differential housing and the left and right side of the frame. It serves the same purpose as a pan hard rod and keeps the axle centered between the frame. Unlike a pan hard rod it does not travel in an arc but allows the rear end to go straight up and down. In a stamped unit there is some flexing so the tube units and cnc'd units may offer some improvement in accuracy of tracking. The tubular control arms in the rear also help keep the rear end tracking straight by reducing the elongation and flexing that the stock units experience under acceleration and deceleration. I think the largest performance gains are in the wheels and tires. These cars have truck tires by todays standards. Wider and lower is what you should be after. Iv'e been toying with widening the rears and running a wider lower profile front and rear. 285 rear and 255 fronts with 40/35 profiles.

Also be aware that lowering the fronts will worsen the tire wear issues in the front. This Thanksgiving I plan on trying some frame modifications to help the tire wear issue and allow me to get rid of the extra camber. Not what you want for handling but I drive mostly highway these days and want to get more than 20k out of a set of fronts.

The Naake set up from what Iv'e heard is great but get the double adjusting model. Also I only have the rear Addco bar. I would like to get the front bar too but I hear it brings back the understeer that he rear bar helps to neutralize.

Iv'e rambled enough. Good luck.

This is a very good description of how a Watts link works. It got me wondering though. If the flex is taken out of the equation will there be undo wear at the connection points thus giving rise to metal fatigue or even failure?

[BigCars4Ever]

No everything is anchored with rubber bushings. See this wiki site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt's_linkage

[jdando]

Just remember there is no free lunch. Changes is suspension/tires, etc will change ride quality. I have a set of 35 series tires I run on the track that the ride is very different just changing to these tires. You feel every crack/expansion joint in the road.

Perhaps you young guys like a harsh ride, but I am at the age that a nice comfortable highway cruiser is a priority.

[Mr. Man]

No everything is anchored with rubber bushings. See this wiki site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt's_linkage

Took a look at this and the relative side to side restriction becomes evident.(compression v. tension in a vertical plane) Do the Watts links limit the overall vertical movement of the suspension or does the suspension keep its full range movement?[ie. a car w/o Watts but one with shocks, springs etc]

[BigCars4Ever]

No limiting, it will go bumpstop to shock extension. Unbolt the shock and it will drop a little more. It's a really good setup. The Mustang guys pay over $1000 to add watts link to thier cars in place of the panhard rods.

[Mr. Man]

No limiting, it will go bumpstop to shock extension. Unbolt the shock and it will drop a little more. It's a really good setup. The Mustang guys pay over $1000 to add watts link to thier cars in place of the panhard rods.

Thank you for your wisdom, I now have a better understanding of whats going on under my car.:)

[BobC]

If you want anything from Sparta, make sure it's in stock first.

[O's Fan Rich]

I'll sell my newly re done Qa1 double double setup, that I got from NAAKE........... ready to ship! PM me.