Metal in oil

[Donald]

Had my oil tested by Blackstone Labs. Their message:

Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from this type of engine after an average of 4,525 miles run on the oil. Your oil was in use 4,016 miles, and we found all wear except
copper at around average levels and in the correct balance to show normal mechanical parts inside. We don't know the source of the copper in this first sample, but it bears monitoring. It usually comes from bronze parts. Air and oil filtration look okay. This was 5W/20 engine oil with no gas or coolant in it. The oil could have stayed in use longer. The TBN was 2.6, adequate.



So, what is bronze in this engine? Should I be glad I bought an extended warranty?

[Donald]

Forgot to mention. I use Havoline 5W20 full synthetic.

[Agent M79]

Can you post details on the process for getting this done?

[sailsmen]

I and another Marauder owner have the same high copper readings. The lab thinks it is the oil cooler. Is it made of copper?

PM me and we can share the results.

[Donald]

Go to http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html
and request a test kit. You get a plastic bottle in a bag in a plastic bottle in a cardboard tube. Fill the inner bottle with used oil. Fill out form and attach check. Put bottle in bag. Put into outer bottle. Put outer bottle in tube. Secure and mail to labs. I paid $1.75 for first class postage. Hazmat label not needed. I mailed it 11/1 and got results by e-mail on 11/5.

[Donald]

No need for a PM. :)

[SergntMac]

Donald, thanks for posting your report.

Presence/percent of copper in your report is within "normal" limits for our automotive application, IMHO.

I check my used oil on a regular basis via "Exxgard" (Exxon) and my reports always show high copper content as a result of my engine oil selection. The specifications for most of these tests are areomotive, where copper content is critical. That is not the case in automotive applications, where copper is routinely present

"No worries, mate."

[RCSignals]

I wouldn't worry either.

also, the Marauder does not have an engine oil cooler

[TripleTransAm]

In older cars, metal present in the oil from bronze parts used to point to bearing wear. Is this still the case with our motors? I have no idea what kind of bearings we use...

[Agent M79]

The other oil analysis thread I remember is HERE (http://www.mercurymarauder.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4135).

There are probably a ton of services that do this but who is the fastest, most thorough, etc... etc... ?

[sailsmen]

According to the Lab cooper alone is not bearing wear. The lead and zinc would be high if it were bearing.

The Lab thinks it is leaching from something like a gasket or an oil cooler. Well we don't have an oil cooler.

[Agent M79]

Having the cowling off and the grille off the front of my MM, there is certainly a lot of room up front for a cooler if you were so inclined.

I must not be paying attention, but I thought we did have coolers? Or is that a transmission cooler?

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by sailsmen
According to the Lab cooper alone is not bearing wear. The lead and zinc would be high if it were bearing.

Cool. Thanks.

[jgc61sr2002]

Donald - Thanks. A very informative post. This site only gets better.:D :up:

[VaderSS]

You may want to post your results on the oil forum for more opinions on it.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

[RCSignals]

The Marauder has both transmission and power steering fluid coolers.
You could probably fit an engine oil cooler as used on a CVPI if you really wanted to

[1 BAD 03 MM]

This is why I'm using AMSOIL 0w30, and By-Pass Filtration. Going to change full flow filter at 12,500 on the oil, and have test done then. Change By-Pass filter at 25,000 (Filters to 1/10th of a micron, filters out water also, which causes corrosion) My 0.02

[Amsoil_Dealer]

I agree with Seargent Mac, those results are fine. Your wear numbers (iron and aluminum) are quite low and at 33 ppm on the copper, there is nothing to concern yourself with.

My first oil analysis on my Crown Vic with 4594 miles on Motorcraft 5W20 had FE=28, Pb=51, Cu=14, and Al=4. These numbers have come way down to close to your numbers since I switched to Amsoil even with longer drain intervals (7722 on last sample).

The 2.9 TBN would concern me. At that level it seems this oil is spent at 4500 miles. Personally I don't agree with Blackstone's comment that you could have gone farther. In my opinion, any TBN below 5 (or less than half the original TBN) indicates hat the oil is used up and it is time for a change.

Don

[1 BAD 03 MM]

I will sample sooner, maybe 5000 miles, then get some results posted here. I already ordered the free "Blackstone" kit. Right now I only have about 2200 miles on the oil. Should be interestng considering I'm using the By-Pass system.:up:

[drobin]

Please enlighten me by explaning what does TBN mean and where does it appear on the oil analysis report (2.6 TBN)

Thanks,

drobin

[Amsoil_Dealer]

drobin,

TBN = Total Base Number and it a measure of the alkalinity of the oil. The higher the TBN, the chemical nature of the oil is more alkaline and thus more able to neutralize acids that form in oil as by product of combustion, or as the case usually is, incomplete combustion. As the oil ages it's ability to neutarlize these acids weakens and the TBN depletes or reduces. This varies form car to car and oil to oil but statistics show that TBN depletion does not normally occur before 3000 miles in most petro oils and 5000-7500 miles in most synthetics. I must re-emephasize however that this varies form car to car and why oil analysis is critical if extended oil drains are employed.

It is also imprtant to note that TBN depletion is most often not linear. For example, if after 5000 miles the TBN drops from 8 to 4, that does not necesarily mean that it will be 2 at 10000 miles. Second, as a rule of thumb I use, anything less than half of original or less than 5 is an indicator that the oil has limited remaining life and an oil change should be planned. Using this rule of thumb in the example I present here, and particularly in Donald's example, in my opinion it is time to think about an oil change.

Where it shows up on an oil analysis report depends on the lab that you are using and if they offer a TBN test. As I understand it Blackstone Labs offers this test as an optional test for an additional fee. So, if you are using Blackstone at their bottom level test, there probably is no TBN report. Frankly, I was surpirsed to see it on Donald's report and I figured that this is something they do on the initial "Free" report.

TBN reporting is standard on Oil Analyzer's Inc. kit and one of the major reason I use this lab.

Don Stevens
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens

[sailsmen]

It's found in the Additional Tests section. It's the ability to neutralize acid. Deplets with use. 5.0 or higher is good.

Yours was 8.20 which is good .

[Donald]

Don,

I paid extra for the TBN test.

[drobin]

Donald, I use Amsoil testing lab and this is included in the $22.00 testing. I just didn't realize what the TBN meant. How much do you pay??

Thanks,

drobin

[Bad Boy Merc]

I have always changed oil the first time on all of the new cars I have had at about 1000 miles, to minimize damage caused by any metal particles. I changed it at 900 miles on my Marauder. When I emptied the drain pan there were many small metal flakes in the bottom of the drain pan. The second change at 2800 miles was done by a dealer after a 2000 mile trip to the midwest. I changed it the third time at 5000 miles after the 2000 mile trip back to the west coast. I found metal in the drain pan again. I recently changed the oil for the forth time at 6300 miles. I did not see any metal in the bottom of the drain pan after I emptied it this time. Seeing metal at the third oil change was alarming to me since I had not seen it after the first oil change on any of the previous six new vehicles I have owned. I wonder if anyone else that changed their own oil has experienced this?

[drobin]

Bad Boy, changed oil at 1500 and cut open oil filter to inspect and found very little metal particle in element. Never thought to look at botttom of drain pan. Open up your filter next time and see what's up but I don't think you should prematurely worry about this unless your engine is making usual noises etc. This is part of the wear in process.

drobin

[jgc61sr2002]

BadBoy - I agree with you about changing the oil after the first thousand miles. My first oil change was at 1,200 miles in Collinsville, Il at the local L/M dealer. My second was at 3,000 at Country L/M in Huntington, N.Y.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

It is fairly common to see metal flakes in new engines. Most often they are machining chips that despite lots of flushing never get completely flushed out.

The metal parts found in oil analysis are measured in parts per million. So if one has a copper measurement of "24" this is 24 parts copper per 1,000,000 parts oil. These can only be found by spectropotometry are essentailly negligible. A chip or flake that can be seen by the naked eye that is found in the bottom of the pan is proabably 10,000 parts per million and will not be seen on a spectrophotometry methods.

The point is "chips" is a new engine are normal and have nothing to do with wear metals in oil. Where one has to be concerned is when wear metals jump from say 10 PPM in one oil analysis to 895 PPM in the next. This is when something has broken, is wearing rapidly, and needs to be fixed.

Don
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens

[Donald]

Just got 2nd oil sample result. Copper went down. Left hand column is the most recent.

Went to a 'real' post office to mail the sample. Guy wanted to charge me 6.50 for parcel post. I walked out and went to a branch PO in a local stationary store. Did not ask what it was. $1.56 in first class postage. Find the right PO and you could probably send a pound of C4 by mail. :)

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Excellent numbers....Is that on Motorcraft 5w20?

[Donald]

Havoline 5w20 full syn

Only brand I have found that states on the bottle it meets the Ford spec mentioned in the Marauder owners manual.

Just trying to stay 'legal'. ;)