Boost & Fuel Pumps

[burt ragio]

I understand more fuel is required when adding a supercharger. Why can't we use just one fuel pump that delivers gal per min required ? Could someone explain why on a Eaton conversion we have to change out the oem fuel pump add a Ford GT fuel pump and a Boost a Pump.20 amp ?
I have also seen FPDM pump & a Boost a Pump 20 amp.combination each with wire & relay upgrade to prevent voltage drop.
What is the required galons per min reqiured for 10 lb boost max ?

[ImpalaSlayer]

I understand more fuel is required when adding a supercharger. Why can't we use just one fuel pump that delivers gal per min required ? Could someone explain why on a Eaton conversion we have to change out the oem fuel pump add a Ford GT fuel pump and a Boost a Pump.20 amp ?
I have also seen FPDM pump & a Boost a Pump 20 amp.combination each with wire & relay upgrade to prevent voltage drop.
What is the required galons per min reqiured for 10 lb boost max ?
10psi you should be good with just the gt pump i would think

[Zack]

With a single GT pump you will be over 80% duty cycle.
The BAP is added for safety, overhead, and the pump will like the extra voltage.

Get the BAP or put another pump in there.

[FordNut]

I understand more fuel is required when adding a supercharger. Why can't we use just one fuel pump that delivers gal per min required ?
You can use a single pump. Many people use the GT40 pump. Some use the Focus pump. The GT40 is better. People who anticipate adding more power later (bigger blower, smaller pulley, ported blower, etc) go ahead and upgrade to twin pumps since they are having to get in the tank anyway.


Could someone explain why on a Eaton conversion we have to change out the oem fuel pump add a Ford GT fuel pump and a Boost a Pump.20 amp ?
The BAP ensures that the pump has adequate power. I suspect a BAP will give the OEM pump enough capacity for low boost, that's what comes with the Trilogy kit. Do not use the 20 amp, get the 40 amp. More capacity, almost same price.


I have also seen FPDM pump & a Boost a Pump 20 amp.combination each with wire & relay upgrade to prevent voltage drop.
There are more ways to do a fuel system than you can shake a stick at.


What is the required galons per min reqiured for 10 lb boost max ?
Sorry, can't help with the specs. But either a GT40 pump or a BAP should do. Both for a safety margin.

[ImpalaSlayer]

With a single GT pump you will be over 80% duty cycle.
The BAP is added for safety, overhead, and the pump will like the extra voltage.

Get the BAP or put another pump in there.

actually now that i think about it i have my BAP turned all the way up so yeah, you should prolly run a BAP too.

[RR|Suki]

actually now that i think about it i have my BAP turned all the way up so yeah, you should prolly run a BAP too.

with what pump/injector?

[ImpalaSlayer]

with what pump/injector?
gt/39s it dosent NEED to be all the way up thats just how its set up i think i started at 10 or w/e it is on the dial and he said to just turn it up all the way.

[RR|Suki]

gt/39s it dosent NEED to be all the way up thats just how its set up i think i started at 10 or w/e it is on the dial and he said to just turn it up all the way.

ahhhh ok, tuner just turned it up and tuned with it set like that, makes sense :D. I thought you were running out of fuel for a second there :eek:

[Vortech347]

BAP is all you'll need for the 39# injectors. If you need more fuel than that you'll need new injectors as well.

[ImpalaSlayer]

ahhhh ok, tuner just turned it up and tuned with it set like that, makes sense :D. I thought you were running out of fuel for a second there :eek:

no i still have room to grow!

[Dennis Reinhart]

I understand more fuel is required when adding a supercharger. Why can't we use just one fuel pump that delivers gal per min required ? Could someone explain why on a Eaton conversion we have to change out the OEM fuel pump add a Ford GT fuel pump and a Boost a Pump.20 amp ?
I have also seen FPDM pump & a Boost a Pump 20 amp.combination each with wire & relay upgrade to prevent voltage drop.
What is the required gallons per min required for 10 lb boost max ?


The main issue is to watch FP duty cycle, by data logging the car. The GT pump can push a lot of gas, but the line will only take so much, by adding a dash 8 line and a larger filter and Aeromotive rails a single pump with a upgraded FPDM and running a larger Gage wire back from the battery to the FPDM should be sufficient, for 500 RWHP. For a normal SC Marauder at 10 PSI you are at about 450 RWHP which is all I want and feel is safe on a stock motor, and that should be easily done on stock rails and lines, a member here was told just the opposite and was told he needed a total fuel system on less than 400 RWHP. I felt like he was being sold some thing not needed but the car was not here, Zack made a easy piggy back pump, that Vortech is now selling with some of there S/C kits, for the 08 Bullet, with a dual pump some people are even running dual FPDM's I have never had to do this on a Marauder not saying that it is a bad thing, I have seen BAP's fail that is why if it's not needed I do not use them.:beer:

[Glenn]

DR's comments are right on. But, other tuners will tell you different to make more money. The bottom line is anything under 450 HP in a SC MM with a BAP plus a Focu SVT fuel pump is all you need. I run over 450 HP on the track with this setup with no issues. I honestly believe anything more is overkill for under 450 HP.

(Others things that do not increase HP and are not worth the money are TBs and Intake spacers.)

Glenn Ford :burnout:

[RacerX]

and 90mm MAFs... :rolleyes:

[blazen71]

I've got a Wahlbro 255 and running 12psi the duty cycle is at 90% at 6000rpm. Not much room for error. I'll be upgrading to GT pump.

[Zack]

I've got a Wahlbro 255 and running 12psi the duty cycle is at 90% at 6000rpm. Not much room for error. I'll be upgrading to GT pump.

Thats not an upgrade!

Walbros, although not 'rated' for returnless flow insane fuel and Im pretty sure its better than the GT pump.

Did y'all know Walbro MAKES the GT pump?

[ImpalaSlayer]

Thats not an upgrade!

Walbros, although not 'rated' for returnless flow insane fuel and Im pretty sure its better than the GT pump.

Did y'all know Walbro MAKES the GT pump?

says so right on it!

[Zack]

says so right on it!

lick me captain obvious :flamer:

[LANDY]

I've got a Wahlbro 255 and running 12psi the duty cycle is at 90% at 6000rpm. Not much room for error. I'll be upgrading to GT pump.
mine is at 98.9% but i got issues im figuring out as i get the free time, im taking the fuel pump assembly out next and checking it out.
(supposedly dual svt focus pums)

[FordNut]

I've got a Wahlbro 255 and running 12psi the duty cycle is at 90% at 6000rpm. Not much room for error. I'll be upgrading to GT pump.


Thats not an upgrade!

Walbros, although not 'rated' for returnless flow insane fuel and Im pretty sure its better than the GT pump.

Did y'all know Walbro MAKES the GT pump?

Walbro makes several pumps, some are rated for continuous duty and others are rated for PWM control (returnless). I don't recall what the flow ratings and current draw ratins are for the different pumps. Seems like when I did the research for my setup I found that the Dual Cobra pumps and Dual GT pumps would work with a 40 amp BAP but the Dual Focus pumps would draw too much current. The Dual GT pumps also flowed more fuel than the Dual Focus pumps. I believe the GT500 pumps came out after I purchased my system, they may flow even more than the GT40 pumps.

[FordNut]

mine is at 98.9% but i got issues im figuring out as i get the free time, im taking the fuel pump assembly out next and checking it out.
(supposedly dual svt focus pums)

Check the internal hoses and hose clamps as well as the PPRV.

[Zack]

Check the internal hoses and hose clamps as well as the PPRV.

Hes got a dual pump setup and Id bet the farm it was improperly welded in place or the assembly got bent...causing the socks to be mashed against the bottom.

I had the same problem years ago

[burt ragio]

All very enlighting info. From what I now understand useing 39 lb injectors making 10 lbs of boost all I need is stock pump plus boost a pump wire & relay upgrade.
When we are talking GT fuel pump are they out of a Ford GT mustang & what year or is that the mfg ?
What does FPDM stand for & is that the oem pump in the Marauder ?

[ImpalaSlayer]

All very enlighting info. From what I now understand useing 39 lb injectors making 10 lbs of boost all I need is stock pump plus boost a pump wire & relay upgrade.
When we are talking GT fuel pump are they out of a Ford GT mustang & what year or is that the mfg ?
What does FPDM stand for & is that the oem pump in the Marauder ?

you are going to want a ford gt pump (super car) with a 20a bap.

fpdm stands for fuel pump driver module.

[FordNut]

All very enlighting info. From what I now understand useing 39 lb injectors making 10 lbs of boost all I need is stock pump plus boost a pump wire & relay upgrade.
When we are talking GT fuel pump are they out of a Ford GT mustang & what year or is that the mfg ?
What does FPDM stand for & is that the oem pump in the Marauder ?

The 39 lb/h injectors or 42 lb/hr are pretty much the same thing so either one will be fine. A 40 amp Boost-A-Pump connected pre-FPDM will most likely be adequate for 10 lb. boost. You probably won't even need the wiring & relay upgrade. This is what I would do, then try it out. If the duty cycle is too high, then swap to a bigger pump.

The GT pump is commonly called the GT40 or GT Supercar pump.

The FPDM is the electronic module that interfaces between the PCM and the pump. The PCM pump drive output signal is a low-level pulsed signal. The FPDM converts that signal into a higher current signal that can drive the electric motor in the pump. It uses a push/pull type signal to the pump, so the pump's ground wire isn't really ground. Sort of like most stereo system speakers. That is one reason the BAP works better when wired pre-FPDM instead of post-FPDM. The Mustang, Cobra, Marauder, Crown Vic, etc all use the same FPDM, some of them have different part numbers because the mounting bracket that comes with it is different.

I can't understand why anybody would use a 20 amp BAP. As soon as a built motor goes in and the boost is cranked up, it needs a second pump. Then the 20 amp BAP has to be replaced with a 40 amp because the 20 amp will only drive one pump. Why not just put in one that is going to be adequate from the get-go?

[-Matt-]

I can't understand why anybody would use a 20 amp BAP. As soon as a built motor goes in and the boost is cranked up, it needs a second pump. Then the 20 amp BAP has to be replaced with a 40 amp because the 20 amp will only drive one pump. Why not just put in one that is going to be adequate from the get-go?


That and the 40 amp is only like 30 bucks more? lol I just went and got the bigger one. :)

[Zack]

Burt, you can put a BAP on with the stock pump and give it a whirl.

Just remember this... your friendly dyno operator is not gonna be forgiving when it comes time to collect....TWICE because you needed more fuel pump.

Do it once, do it right.
Ford GT Supercar pump, on sale now for $125 shipped from www.bapracing.com

[Vortech347]

I'm running a single 20amp bap with a 255lph high pressure GSS340 in my fox. Without the bap she falls off to 12.-12.5ish territory after 5200 rpm on my fox. Even with the BAP only on 30% She dropped like a rock down to 11.4 all the way up again. I was 572rwhp without the bap and just using Meth. Now that I've got enough fuel I'm willing to bet the car will be around 580-590rwhp. My dyno sheet even with the meth showed the A/F was creapin back to 12.0 at 6000rpm.

A 20amp bap on a stock fuel pump is plently for 475-500rwhp. But since GT pumps are so cheap, might as well change it. You can never be overfueled.

[FordNut]

...bap on a stock fuel pump is plently for 475-500rwhp...

Kinda what I was thinking. There's about 200 Trilogy kits out there, most of them have the stock pump with a BAP.

[RR|Suki]

I'm running a single 20amp bap with a 255lph high pressure GSS340 in my fox. Without the bap she falls off to 12.-12.5ish territory after 5200 rpm on my fox. Even with the BAP only on 30% She dropped like a rock down to 11.4 all the way up again. I was 572rwhp without the bap and just using Meth. Now that I've got enough fuel I'm willing to bet the car will be around 580-590rwhp. My dyno sheet even with the meth showed the A/F was creapin back to 12.0 at 6000rpm.

A 20amp bap on a stock fuel pump is plently for 475-500rwhp. But since GT pumps are so cheap, might as well change it. You can never be overfueled.

I dunno about that, you are talking two different motors. I dunno how the results from your fox translates into a stock marauder pump + a BAP feeding 500whp...


Kinda what I was thinking. There's about 200 Trilogy kits out there, most of them have the stock pump with a BAP.

Are most of those kits making 500whp on those stock pumps though? Heck are even a 1/4 of those kits making 500whp in general?

[Vortech347]

500rwhp is 500rwhp, regardless of what engine. You'll most likely be using damn near the same amounts of fuel and air in both combinations. Although there are other factors with boosted engines like parasitic loss from different superchargers. The 255 and GT pump are very close. Basicly I'm sayin you'll most likely need a BAP no matter what. Might as well try it first.

I have 2 friends with boosted stangs 4.6 2v's with KB's on them making 500-525 to the wheels both with stock pumps and baps. Just didn't originally want to throw out the usually useless "my friends" But if I must... :)

[-Matt-]

My GT40 pump doesnt say walbro on it.....

[Vortech347]

Ford GT 5.4L Supercharged Supercar.

The GT40 was 1966-1969.

[RR|Suki]

500rwhp is 500rwhp, regardless of what engine. You'll most likely be using damn near the same amounts of fuel and air in both combinations. Although there are other factors with boosted engines like parasitic loss from different superchargers. The 255 and GT pump are very close. Basicly I'm sayin you'll most likely need a BAP no matter what. Might as well try it first.

I have 2 friends with boosted stangs 4.6 2v's with KB's on them making 500-525 to the wheels both with stock pumps and baps. Just didn't originally want to throw out the usually useless "my friends" But if I must... :)

Actually I'm talking about the pump the Marauder uses. I agree with needing the BAP etc. All I'm saying is that doesn't equate to what is going on with the Marauder stock pump.
I just don't know how the fuel provided by the 255 or GT pump equates into what the stock marauder pump should be able to do. I am wondering what the basis is for saying that the stock pump should be able to run 500whp with a BAP.

[Zack]

The stock MM pump and a BAP is not gonna cut it for 475-500rwhp, sorry.

My Fuel Pump duty Cycle in my 450rwhp Eaton with a BAP set to MAX is over 85%

A lot of good tuners will send you home if your FPDC is 90% or above.

[Mike M]

I have a Wahlbro pump, was put in with the ProCharger package. Not sure what model pump they were using. Anyone know?

If I need the GT pump is it a direct replacement or is there a mod that needs to be done?

[FordNut]

Are most of those kits making 500whp on those stock pumps though? Heck are even a 1/4 of those kits making 500whp in general?

No, most are around 400 hp, maybe 425. That should be around 10 psi boost.

[Glenn]

Need some information: Any pros or cons on just moving the BAP setting to max on the dial versus leaving turned up half way. Will the max setting burn-up the fuel pump over time? I have never moved the dial even when racing? I'm running 12.5# boost.

Thanks,

Glenn Ford :burnout:

[Zack]

Setting the BAP to max only gives the FPDM the 17 volts at all times.
When the FPDM send a signal to the pump, thats when the pump will get the full voltage.

All 3 of my BAP's are set to max at all times.

[burt ragio]

Found some great information comparing KB boost a pump /cobra vs focus vs walbro fuel pump.http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/BAPsvtFocus_kens.pdf

[Dennis Reinhart]

I've got a Wahlbro 255 and running 12psi the duty cycle is at 90% at 6000rpm. Not much room for error. I'll be upgrading to GT pump.

The Walbro 255 in my opinion is the totaly wrong pump for a Marauder with returnless fuel system, the Walbro 255 is designed for a constant 12V drive retun style fuel system, the Maruder uses a pulse driven signal via the FRPS and the ECM sent back to the FPDM, the GT pump or the Focus pumps are designed to be pulsed on and off, with the varying signal and load senced through the FRPS, so if you pulse run the Walbro on a returnless system it can cause premature failure of the pump.

[Zack]

What Dennis said is correct, but there have been no documented failures of any Walbro pump in any Marauder running a Procharger.

[ImpalaSlayer]

What Dennis said is correct, but there have been no documented failures of any Walbro pump in any Marauder running a Procharger.

holy crap! i gotta get my eyes checked. :lol:

[Dennis Reinhart]

What Dennis said is correct, but there have been no documented failures of any Walbro pump in any Marauder running a Procharger.


Thank you Zack we both know the are no short cuts on the Fuel system,

[LANDY]

ni info given in this thread, thanks guys.

[Dennis Reinhart]

unknown HP, no full throttle action for now
03 300a, vortech supercharged air to air, BC automotive stage 2 transmission, 3500stall triple disc converter, MMX driveshaft, 4.10s, (CHE) Sparta control arms, addco rear sway bars, cobra manifolds, magnaflow muffler X pipe, 18"magnaflow exhaust .


Darn fo unknown RWHP it sure seems like to me you were here to see the #'s and the Data log the car held 39 PSI of higher FP dutu cycle was on the high 50's but this is not on the street and at full load, and the night you picked the car up it was raining, if is showing less now get a pump drive down will install it for free, and redyno thar with you in the front seat.

Landy's A/A Vortech
Here is Mike Wilkerson's old Vortech, I did some time this new owner Landy is the proud of the car, he said Mike told him it made 450 RWHP years ago, so he brought it up we checked installed a new belt strapped on the dyno today in the rain. All these were taken with a cell phone including the dyno the Audio did not come out well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak7g0fqFggw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak7g0fqFggw)

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/Photo0249.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/Photo0257.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/Photo0259.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/Photo0262.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/Photo0269.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1263682918-YOLANDI-SANTANA.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/Photo0268.jpg

And sure enough, it made close to 450, I pulled 2 degrees and added 4% to the A/F and gave him a race gas tune, thank you Landy.

[juno]

I have a Wahlbro pump, was put in with the ProCharger package. Not sure what model pump they were using. Anyone know?

If I need the GT pump is it a direct replacement or is there a mod that needs to be done?

Pretty much direct. Here is the thread when I did the first one in a MM.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27632&highlight=gt+40+fuel+single