Very important! Do you guys and gals have your new MM's undercoated/rustproof

[RedMM]

opinions are all over the map on this one. Some owners insist it must be done, while others say having it done voids the warranty. my father swears by Ziebart undercoating and rustproofing. In addition-his 1991 Town Car which was Ziebarted when it was new now has not one spot of surface rust anywhere! MY 98 Lincoln Navigator that I traded in on the 04 MM had rust under all 4 of the doors at seams with only 40k miles and meticulous washings and waxes. Some say the undercoating actually causes the salt(which is heavily used in my area) to stick to the undercoating. I want to get it done FAST while car is clean underneath(288miles) . It is quite clear that so most of you have a wealth of experience in properly taking care of your beloved MM's, I would welcome your thoughts on what you would do. :help me make the best choice!THANK YOU my friends! Mike(aka RedMM):help:

[merc406]

Do it, Ziebart's the best and is a better product than it was in the 70's.

[beemer]

IMHO, the best rustproofing for your new Marauder is an old Taurus or Sable for winter driving and a garage for the Marauder.
That's what I do! :rock:

Best,

Paul:D

[chapel1]

My "70"Torino GT started rusting where the holes were drilled.And it took away the new car smell.My car has a spot in the garage and twice a year I wax my undercarriage.It's my labor to try to keep my car showroom looking clean.
Redman it's your car only you can make the call.I hope it has improved in 30 years,but I think it's unnecessary.

[UAW 588]

Mike, It's not necessary to rustproof and undercoat. I have had my Thunderbird SC since Feb. of 95 and do not have one bit of rust on her. It is my daily driver and has seen many of winters here in Chicago. Also, you might want to know most cars have double galvanized sheet metal on their outer surfaces. I know this because I work at a Ford Stamping Plant and see the stuff every day. As a matter of fact, our plant made the floor pan and hood for Marauder, before giving the parts to the Buffalo Stamping. One last tid bit. When a car is painted at the assembly plant it goes through E- coat. The whole body of the car is summurged in a tank of primer and is electric-statically sealed. That means every square inch of that car is covered. So I wouldn't be to concerned with rust. Peace out.

[gilby04]

Hey Mike,

In my opinion, I think undercoating, either dealer applied or after-market Ziebart, Tuff-Coat, et al, are not necessary for enhancing the rust resistance quotient. However, the "tar-like" rust proofing treatment does provide a definite sound deadening feature. The one big drawback of the "tar-like" treatment is the continual dripping of the tar-like material (on hot summer days) onto lower ground surfaces, as well as the engine compartment surfaces.
If you do not intend on keeping your MM for more than (8) or (10) years, the rust proofing $$$ could be directed elsewhere...maybe toward a "super duper" paint shine treatment where your eyes (and everbody else) can enjoy the results EVERY day !

[RCSignals]

It's entirely up to the individual. I did not have mine done, and I certainly would not have a car "heavy" undercoated today.

There was a time that all cars had bare steel in many places. This is no longer the case. You can do more to prevent rust through thorough washings/cleanings/waxings these days I think

[Petrograde]

Hey RedMM,
I used to work at the Ziebart on W. 117th and Bellaire, I would recommend it. Especially when the City of Cleveland pours enough friggin salt on the roads to turn them white til March!

Hey UAW 588, just out of curiosity,... when the body is dunked and electrostatically sealed, is it before or after the hardware has been attached?

[junehhan]

I actually chose to have my Marauder rustproofed and undercoated by the dealer, but I honestly can't tell you why I decided to do it. It sounded like a good thing, and they did offer me a really good discount on the package.

[Bigdogjim]

I agree with a few of the others.
Do not see the need for it.

[AFSP13]

Mine has the complete VESCO pakage .

[Mongoose]

Petro & RedMM,

when the body is dunked and electrostatically sealed, is it before or after the hardware has been attached?
If they're done like the Super Duty pick-ups, just sheet metal ( cab with doors attached, boxes with tail-gate), sealer and some plastic body parts (eg. radiator header core) are first dipped in a phosphate solution to be cleaned, then rinsed, dipped in e-coat, then baked. If no vent holes are accidently plugged, the e-coat should reach and cover all the metal surfaces (including inside the doors but not the plastic or sealer). Cabs and boxes are then base coated, painted, additional sealer and sound proofing applied and then sent to the trim department. IMHO, if the process is done right, there's no need for undercoating.

[Petrograde]

Thanks Mongoose,
That's how I figured they did it,.. my only concern would be after bolting everything up underneath, you might lose the protective coating around the hardware. Creating multiple paths for rust to occur.

Not to mention: the steel hardware mated to aluminum frame members. I would be surprised if auto makers actually primed the hardware first to prevent galvanic reaction.

Anyway, I don't think going to Ziebart will hurt anything,.. it just might not help as much as you would think.

my 2 cents.

Tom

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by merc406
Do it, Ziebart's the best and is a better product than it was in the 70's.

Let's hope the employees are as well.....I did rustproofing right out of high school to make ends meet before leaving for the military. I worked for a competitor, but was very familiar with ZB.

ALOT of cars weren't shot right.....

All rustproofing bussiness' have closed around here, for various reasons, ut mainly for lack of need. No one in their right mind undercoats any longer. Business dwindled as more and more cars have plastic or fiberglass lower panels. As far as doors, many times the lower panels rusted as a result of undercoating blocking weap holes.

My 92 vic winterbeater had been undercoated at some point by the elderly former owner. Upon close inspection, the rear drivers door lip has rusted at the seam and the undercarriage has some spots where the undercoat has dried up, chipped off, and allowed salt and grime to penetrate under the layer. Once under the layer, the rust will continue UNDER the undercoat and you won't even notice. The holes drilled into the vehicle for wand insertion tend to rust as they never get zinc replated on the bare metal.

Visit a bone yard and seek out vehicles that have the old ZB or Rusty Jones stickers and look at them really close.

To wrap up, I once was a number one backer for rust proofing back in the day...but now in the 21st century...in my opinion it's a waste, and possibly a problem causer in the long run. I do however have some old material, and have been known to (hand) coat the lower engine compartments of my older cars, and the inner lips of the lower door edges.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by Petrograde
Hey RedMM,
I used to work at the Ziebart on W. 117th and Bellaire

They have since closed...I worked at Mickey's. By far a better operation.

What a small world....I used to live at 117 and western.....

[MapleLeafMerc]

Surprising for me to see so many no's about rustproofing. I guess cars are better protected during assembly than they ever were before. Still, I have never heard of rustproofing actually causing premature rusting.

I can have it done for $100 (prob $70 or so US), so I see it as a fairly cheap way to get a bit of extra peace of mind, esp. the way they smother us in salt.

[RF Overlord]

Here's my personal $0.02:

If done CORRECTLY, undercoating/rustproofing CAN be a good thing...note the emphasis on CORRECTLY...most of the old "quick-lube" style rustproofing places (anyone else remember Rusty Jones?) did a really shoddy job that actually left the vehicle MORE prone to rust, especially due to the extra holes being drilled in the wrong places, then not sealed properly. As UAW 588 said, modern cars have WAY more protection in this regard than cars from 15-20 years ago...I too have a T-bird SC, a '94, with no rustproofing, and the only rust on it is some slight surface rust from areas where rocks hit the hood, and a little tiny bit around one of the back windows...and, yes, they use salt in my area...

In the dead of winter, when hand-washing is not an option, I periodically run my cars through a "spray-and-blow" type of carwash, for no other reason than to remove salt and crap from the finish and the undercarriage...

I doubt whether anyone can CORRECTLY apply rustproofing outside of the manufacturing process, at last not for a reasonable fee, and in my mind it's better to leave the body integrity alone...

[Bootlegger]

Mine came undercoated from the dealership at no charge...Go figure, I live in south Florida..Oh well, the price was right........

[merc406]

I still stand by what I said, they also do the frame which needs all the protection it can get from the water, salt and humidity up here.
Red, you kinda answered your own question with the trouble you had with the Nav. Most Ziebart appliers know what they are doing, if in doubt they will let you see how they do it. As for the rust around the plugs, have them leave the plugs out and paint the holes with touch-up and install them with a-little sealer.

[Rex_Karrs]

I intend to keep the medium bomber in the hangar during the salt season and drive the ol' pickup instead. Over time, we'll see if it makes a difference. I didn't undercoat.

[TripleTransAm]

What an incredibly timely thread (with the sound of little ice pellets tinkling against the window of my office)... in fact, I was thinking of starting this morning of starting an identical thread.

Seems I've made up my mind to use the Civic as the primary winter beater, er... choice of vehicle. This will involve procuring Blizzaks and getting down and dirty with the timing belt change this coming weekend. The idea is to keep the MM available for nice days only. The lower fuel costs of the Civic will help us $ave a bit more for the upcoming hou$e purcha$e.

So the way I'm understanding this... as long as I wash off the undercarriage fairly regularly (once a week?) and keep the finish protected (Zaino?), I should be okay?

What freaked me out the most was that I bought the car at the very tail end of March this past spring. We had a snow dump within 2 days, which forced me back into the Civic for another week or two as the salt flew once again. Even in this situation, I noted that some undercarriage components were rusting incredibly quick! (ie. rust stains on the exhaust piping and hangers, shock mounting points, etc.). In contrast, my '87 and '98 F-bodies have seen a handful of salty slushy days in total, and nothing looked worse for wear. (my '78 doesn't count... it had an automatic self-lubrication system, which would dump half it's engine oil all along the bottom of the car as it drove ;) ).

[Merc-O-matic]

IMHO having been born and raised
in Cleveland, O. (if you love your Marauder)
you don't drive it in the winter....period.
Undercoat or No Undercoat!

My Mother's cousin owned the
Bar on the corner of W.115th & Western

Gotta Love It!:eek:

[marauder307]

Huh.

Just had my MM undercoated/paint protected today, as the ****ty weather continues here in STL. I bought mine in Daytona Beach; didn't think that FL cars would be all that well protected. Sure, there's the salt air down there, but only in the immediate coastal areas. The rubberized undercoating and paint protection was applied by a local place here in STL called Fantasy Coachworks. They primarily specialize in ricer stuff, with a healthy side business in truck modification. That said, they didn't have any problems taking care of the MM...Mine's gonna havta be a driver this winter, as I don't have two cars anymore. I agree with Beemer on one point: Looks like a lot of the lower surfaces of the MM are heavy-duty fiberglass/polyurethane/etc...that stuff doesn't rust.

On a related topic: while the weather around STL gets crummy, it seems to avoid the main part of the city. LML and 93tealcobra, out in the western approaches to STL (St. Charles/O'Fallon), prolly get it worse than I do in the immediate southside of the city (known as South County). Seems the wx around here dodges either north or south, but doesn't get into STL proper. Freaky.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Merc-O-matic
(if you love your Marauder)
you don't drive it in the winter....period.


Problem is... I do love it. Storing my F-bodies is hard enough (and seems to be getting tougher every year, for some odd reason). But this winter was supposed to be different... I was almost looking forward to it. Hasn't happened since I owned a '92 Integra GS in the late 90s as a winter car (hey, it was cute and somewhat zippy...). The thought of a nice car throughout the year was damn enticing. But the thought of getting rammed by someone else was not so appealing.

So, the best compromise is to let the Civic have one last gasp at greatness by enduring the really ugly days (heck, no need to relearn a car's dynamics, I can drive a Honda on bald tires through a glacier blindfolded, I'm so used to those cars' behaviour). But then that means the Marauder has to get exposure to some road salt dust.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by marauder307
Seems the wx around here dodges either north or south, but doesn't get into STL proper. Freaky.


Says something about STL if the weather doesn't even wanna go there...

:lol:

[kurly]

Hi all,
I don't know about today, but years ago the old HEAVY TAR treatment was terrible. It was rough, and covered all the goodies underneath. It also made it harder to fix stuff. Do they have something like a clearcoat type protection these days? :confused:

[RedMM]

Hey buds! Just to muddy the rustproof or no rustproof issue a bit more- I found out tonight that there is a company close by that uses a fogging process for door skins-NO holes drilled like the process Ziebart uses, which seems to be the biggest concern for those of you who are anti rustproofing(the probability that rust will start at the drill holes.) Would this change your no rustproofing vote to a yes vote?? Thank you RedMM):confused:

[merc406]

Whatever.................^

[gilby04]

RedMM,

Comically, you're fogging up, rather than muddying up, the rust-proof issue.
In my opinion, however, the term "rust-proof" is a misnomer.
Ther are other proofs that are household words: bullit-proof windows, explosion-proof electrical motors, sound-proof insulation, water-proof scuba diving watches, and the like.
Trouble is, all these proofs are always subject to quantitative limitations...bullit-proof windows, motors, insulation, and watches will fail by the impact of a bigger bullit, a bigger explosion, a louder sound wave, and a deeper diving depth.
Perhaps "rust resistant" may be more realistic than "rust-proof" in
Lastly, for the comical record, one "proof" that won't fail quantitatively (and is debate-proof too) is 100 proof whiskey.

[bnvus]

CRUZTAKER is exactly right. Dealers today hardly offer rustproofing anymore and the ones that do...take a can of 3M rustproofing and spray your frame rails (Check it out Bootlegger). Bottom line is...Body shops today do not see rust problems in the shop on vehicles after 1991. This is when almost all of the manufacturers switched to the "galvanizing" of the steel and "E" coat primers from the factory. This is also why I constantly argue with insurance adjusters about 3rd party replacement parts vs. OEM. I know OEM maintain the standards for replacement panels. Joe Schmo Inc. body parts...well you get what you pay for. My body shop .02 TIFIW

[merc406]

Yeah right, come on up here, I'll show you some salt ravaged pre-2003 cars.

[RedMM]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer their opinion on this subject. I appreciate your input. I've made an appointment with Miracle Shield, instead of Zbart(who DOES make a minimum of 2 holes per door. Miracle Shield uses existing door holes to apply their product-no holes are drilled, hence, no damage to protective finish on sheetmetal. Also comes with a "lifetime warranty"-not sure if they mean MY lifetime or the Mercs lifetime and free yearly inspections/reapplications as needed. Ford employee price-$239.00. I've spent a lot more for less important things, and feel this is worth the gamble. Sincere thanks, again to all who offered opinions. I appreciate it very much! Mike(aka RedMM)

[gilby04]

Mike,
Any automotive related "Lifetime Warranty", most likely, is limited to 10 - 12 years.
Ford's factory rust perforation warranty is 5 years.
In my opinion, there will be an improved, "Marauder-like" eplacement vehicle available by then.
I had a new 1989 Mark VII that I babied for 9 years.
It was undercoated, had urethane lower body protection, and many other after-market protectorants/enhancements.
Trouble was...I missed out on many technologically improved vehicles during those 9 years, and didn't realize it.
I'm not trying to talk you out of caring for your DTR MM, but I don't think you'll experience any rust issues for 5 years.
Jim

[RedMM]

Hey gilby04! You are probably right, but after seeing all 4 door bottoms on my 98 Navigator rusted at 40K miles(no extra rust protection) and no rust anywhere on my 96 Windstar(aka THE TRUCK) which was "rustproofed, I think I'm willing to take the $239.00 chance. Some of the guys made great points about not damaging the sheet metal protection that the factory uses, so as long as the installer makes no holes or damages the metal, should be OK. I'm heading to NYC this morning-do you think there will be a few yellow Crown Vics there?!?! I hope to see the stretch version that I've read about. As always, thanks for your reply and kindness. Mike(aka RedMM)

[Ken]

Hey junehhan,

Pull your door panels sometime and check out the rustproofing. I had rustproofing dealer-installed on my 92 Ford Conversion Van, due to the holes cut in the side of van for the side windows. There were fan shaped spurts going up about a foot into cavities, no where near where needed. I went back to dealer and he said "what's the problem, we'll repair it if it RUSTS THROUGH". Is this what we are paying for rustproofing for? Read the warranty, before paying, what does it say? How many of us will still have the car, when it has RUSTED THROUGH? Chances are that we'll still have it when the rust starts showing up at the plug holes.
Have any earlier CV/GM's experienced rust at bottom of door skins like my five year old F150 with 40,000 miles, but not my six year old SVT Contour with 75,000 miles? My eight year old Van had no rust on it (except for plug areas), no thanks to a worthless rustproof job.

Ken