Wilwoods installed

[DOOM]

This past sunday i got around to installing my wilwood's
A big thanks go's out to NATEHAWK & TWIN03 for all the help. :beer:

Took it for a test drive and tapped the brake pedal and the car took a nose dive! :D

This is easily one of the best (and smartest) mods i have ever done.

Fyi when we put the brakes on the car and tried to turn the wheel by hand the brakes were so tight it felt as if the brakes were already being applied. :confused:

Apperantly this is "normal". After speaking to a few other members who have done big brake kits. They confirmed having the same issue. So after a little driving the pads wore down and seem to be ok now.

Dyno tune next week!
Here comes trouble! :burn:

[ImpalaSlayer]

wheres the pics doomie!

[Speed]

Hey Doom, did you go with the front kit only or front and rear?

[DOOM]

Hey Doom, did you go with the front kit only or front and rear?

Front only.

I'll post some pics up later.

[DOOM]

Also I was told that the mini spare will not fit with the wilwoods on.

I haven't checked it yet.

Maybe someone else will chime in and confirm it.

[ImpalaSlayer]

Also I was told that the mini spare will not fit with the wilwoods on.

I haven't checked it yet.

Maybe someone else will chime in and confirm it.

probably not, i really need to get a full sized spare....

[DOOM]

Guess I need to keep one of my 4 extra wheels in the trunk! :D
I guess I need to put a 235 on the rim.

[ImpalaSlayer]

Guess I need to keep one of my 4 extra wheels in the trunk! :D
I guess I need to put a 235 on the rim.

and sell me the other 3 :D

[DOOM]

and sell me the other 3 :D

They aren't gun metal grey! :D

[ImpalaSlayer]

They aren't gun metal grey! :D

they coud be

[SILVERSURFER03]

Why wilwood over baer if you don't mind me asking? And isn't the spare donut too shallow ?

[DOOM]

I went with willwoods because I felt they are the superior brake kit. :flamer:

6 piston calipers compared to 2 piston.

Lots of people I know with baers have had warping problems.
As far as I know nobody has had rotor issues with the willwoods.
Fellas feel free to chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Plus willwoods are the only company that makes a rear brake kit for our cars as well. (which I will be getting at some point) :D

[Zack]

All brake kits for the MM are junk unless you modify them.
You dont get much for $1500 nowadays.
And for the guys who chime in and tell me im wrong...you dont drive your car like I do.

[DOOM]

Hey all the "local" members know how I drive my car! :burnout:

These brakes are perfect for what I need! But I have only been driving on them for one day. :D

I wouldn't say these brake kits are junk.

These stop my car waaaaayyyyyy better than stock bro. :beer:

[ImpalaSlayer]

Hey all the "local" members know how I drive my car! :burnout:

These brakes are perfect for what I need! But I have only been driving on them for one day. :D

I wouldn't say these brake kits are junk.

These stop my car waaaaayyyyyy better than stock bro. :beer:
he means quality. as in my rotors warping within 3k miles

[Zack]

Hey all the "local" members know how I drive my car! :burnout:

These brakes are perfect for what I need! But I have only been driving on them for one day. :D

I wouldn't say these brake kits are junk.

These stop my car waaaaayyyyyy better than stock bro. :beer:

Give it time..... the rotors will warp, the calipers will stain.
The pad dust will annoy a clean freak like yourself. The hat bolts will rust...


Just you wait

[fastblackmerc]

All brake kits for the MM are junk unless you modify them.
You dont get much for $1500 nowadays.
And for the guys who chime in and tell me im wrong...you dont drive your car like I do.

I don't think so.......

I "drive" my MM.

Those Willwoods have saved my butt more than once. And no modifications.

No rotor warping, fading or anything else.

Stops on a dime and give you back $0.09 change!

[DOOM]

he means quality. as in my rotors warping within 3k miles

That's my point bro.

This thread is about wilwoods not your crappy baers. :lol:

[fastblackmerc]

Give it time..... the rotors will warp, the calipers will stain.
The pad dust will annoy a clean freak like yourself. The hat bolts will rust...


Just you wait

Have had mine on for over 20K... no warping, replaced the hat to rotor bolts with stainless steel so no rusting. The only thing is brake dust, which I can live with.

[fastblackmerc]

Just follow the break in procedure, to the letter, to seat the pads.......

[DOOM]

Thanks for posting fastblackmerc.
Like I said as far as I know I haven't heard anything about about willwoods warping.

Warped rotors seem like a common problem on Baer brake kits.
Also the baers are still only 2 piston calipers. Wilwoods are 6 piston!

[Zack]

Just follow the break in procedure, to the letter, to seat the pads.......

Although ive never met you, I can guarantee you without a doubt you do not drive your MM like I do.

You can defend them all you want..Ive tested every aftermarket mod there is for the MM. Not impressed at all.

[bawazir]

so basically stock is the best to go with?

[Zack]

so basically stock is the best to go with?

Stop right there!

I got a little carried away just now.

When you have spent the dollars I have over the years,

the amount of parts Ive held in my hands, the amount of installs ive done......

You come to expect 2 things:

1. Not to expect a lot from high dollar items (Trilogy kit excluded)
2. Modification for proper operation is necessary (again, Trilogy kit excluded)

[Kennyrauder]

I am looking to upgrade to a Bembro setup has any one done this conversion & if not happy I would love to hear. So far there has been tons of trouble with warping with Willwoods etc.

[-Matt-]

Are they chrome?

[FordNut]

I am looking to upgrade to a Bembro setup has any one done this conversion & if not happy I would love to hear. So far there has been tons of trouble with warping with Willwoods etc.

Waiting for somebody to blaze that trail for us. You go first...

[fastblackmerc]

Although ive never met you, I can guarantee you without a doubt you do not drive your MM like I do.

You can defend them all you want..Ive tested every aftermarket mod there is for the MM. Not impressed at all.

Well that and a dollar will get me a cup of coffee!

[fastblackmerc]

Stop right there!

I got a little carried away just now.

When you have spent the dollars I have over the years,

the amount of parts Ive held in my hands, the amount of installs ive done......

You come to expect 2 things:

1. Not to expect a lot from high dollar items (Trilogy kit excluded)
2. Modification for proper operation is necessary (again, Trilogy kit excluded)

OK, so "has" to be modified for the Wilwoods to "work" properly?

[merc]

I have had my Willwoods brakes approximately 3 to 4 years. I am on my second set of pads and new rotors are setting in the living room to be installed in the next couple of weeks. I high recommend them to any member. :burnout:

[-Matt-]

you would think that a $1500 price tag would come with stainless hat bolts :rolleyes:

[FordNut]

you would think that a $1500 price tag would come with stainless hat bolts :rolleyes:

I think they come with grade 8 bolts, which are stronger than stainless. Maybe it's a safety/CYA thing?

[DOOM]

so basically stock is the best to go with?

Yes bawazir stock brakes are the best. :2thumbs:

[DOOM]

you would think that a $1500 price tag would come with stainless hat bolts :rolleyes:

Not worried about rusted bolts on a car that dosent see rain. :P

[bocat187]

how do find out what number your marauder is

[bawazir]

Yes bawazir stock brakes are the best. :2thumbs:

no no the reason i am asking is just that i need new brakes, & i was thinking of getting Bears, heard lots of good things about Bears

[DOOM]

no no the reason i am asking is just that i need new brakes, & i was thinking of getting Bears, heard lots of good things about Bears

Have you even read this thread??? :confused:

[guspech750]

no no the reason i am asking is just that i need new brakes, & i was thinking of getting Bears, heard lots of good things about Bears
Yeah the "Bears" just picked up 3 free agents. I guess thats good...:lol: Oh you mean "Baer". I get it.:lol:

[bawazir]

why you picking on me? i thought were boys :cool:

[guspech750]

why you picking on me? i thought were boys :cool:
When do you start the "Transformation" from N/A to S/C?

[bawazir]

When do you start the "Transformation" from N/A to S/C?


Before Kentucky

[-Matt-]

Not worried about rusted bolts on a car that dosent see rain. :P


So you dont wash your car either? :rolleyes:

[bawazir]

I am going to be like Doom, smoking them SRT-8

[DOOM]

Hey bawazir when you get your car up to triple digit speed with the blower on let me know how much you like those "stock" brakes. :D

[Phrog_gunner]

So you dont wash your car either? :rolleyes:

Why not try the search function?

[DOOM]

So you dont wash your car either? :rolleyes:

Nope!
I use a leaf blower. :up:

[bawazir]

Hey bawazir when you get your car up to triple digit speed with the blower on let me know how much you like those "stock" brakes. :D

I was just asking, but i am really looking in to Bear brakes this summer, I need to save more money.

[-Matt-]

Why not try the search function?



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e374/Ice_Dragoness/Billy_Mays_Shut_Your_Whore_Mou th.jpg

[bawazir]

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr52/buffalokill/Billy_Mays_Shut_Your_Whore_Mou th.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e374/Ice_Dragoness/Billy_Mays_Shut_Your_Whore_Mou th.jpg

Dude WTF ?

[-Matt-]

Dude WTF ?


You stay out of this!

[bawazir]

You stay out of this!

ok :alone:

[Phrog_gunner]

Dude WTF ?

Sorry, did he interrupt one of your deep thoughts?

[DOOM]

I have had my Willwoods brakes approximately 3 to 4 years. I am on my second set of pads and new rotors are setting in the living room to be installed in the next couple of weeks. I high recommend them to any member. :burnout:

So merc have you had rotor warping issues?

Seems like its mostly with the baers.

Also i have heard baers customer service sucks donkey balls! :argue: :down:

[bawazir]

Sorry, did he interrupt one of your deep thoughts?

yes :depress:

[Phrog_gunner]

yes :depress:

I can get in there real deep-like for ya.

[bawazir]

I can get in there real deep-like for ya.

I think matt would like that better :lol: :lol:

[DOOM]

-Matt- have you thought about upgrading brakes since youre about to get S/C?

[bawazir]

Doom just how much you got your set up for?

[-Matt-]

I think matt would like that better :lol: :lol:

We are already in a "relationship"


-Matt- have you thought about upgrading brakes since youre about to get S/C?

Hell no.... :burnout:

[fastblackmerc]

i have had my willwoods brakes approximately 3 to 4 years. I am on my second set of pads and new rotors are setting in the living room to be installed in the next couple of weeks. I high recommend them to any member. :burnout:

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fastblackmerc]

how do find out what number your marauder is

Use the search function.

[DOOM]

I would really like to know if anyone has had warping issues with wilwoods???

Seems like the answer is no!

But if im wrong let me know.

[fastblackmerc]

I would really like to know if anyone has had warping issues with wilwoods???

Seems like the answer is no!

But if im wrong let me know.

I haven't heard of any....

Waiting for Mr. Know-It-All to chime in.....

[-Matt-]

Waiting for Mr. Know-It-All to chime in.....


Sorry i was late....

Are they chrome?

[DOOM]

I haven't heard of any....

This was one of my biggest deciding factors in picking a big brake kit!

Also 6 pistons (wilwoods) instead of 2 pistons (baers)

And the baers arent available with black calipers.

[fastblackmerc]

Sorry i was late....



No, not you!

[DOOM]

Sorry i was late....

Are they chrome?

No they aren't chrome!

black calipers :banana2:

[fastblackmerc]

Still waiting to find out how I have to "modify" my Wilwood brakes to make them work correctly / better.

[Phrog_gunner]

Still waiting to find out how I have to "modify" my Wilwood brakes to make them work correctly / better.

Maybe try the search function.

[DOOM]

Still waiting to find out how I have to "modify" my Wilwood brakes to make them work correctly / better.

Mine seem to be working just fine. :beer:

These are like a bazillion times better than stock!

[fastblackmerc]

Maybe try the search function.

Tried that..... just found references to how good the Wilwoods are and that no one has had problems with the rotors warping!

[-Matt-]

no, not you!

yes me!!!!!!

[DOOM]

Tried that..... just found references to how good the Wilwoods are and that no one has had problems with the rotors warping!

:lol:

:drink:

[Local Boy]

Had mine (Wilwoods) for a while...No problems...

Aloha

[Mr. Man]

Pics Doomie

[fastblackmerc]

Had mine (Wilwoods) for a while...No problems...

Aloha

Another satisfied customer!

[hotford]

This was one of my biggest deciding factors in picking a big brake kit!

Also 6 pistons (wilwoods) instead of 2 pistons (baers)

And the baers arent available with black calipers.

I too am having a trilogy placed on my car and was thinking of upgrading the front brakes as well I just did all four corners on the car but really considering upgrdaing the front: Doom whats the price difference between the BAER'S and WILWOODS?

Also the BAER'S have the same PBR Caliper as the 94-04 Cobra's and the cars alot lighter than a MM.

[merc]

So merc have you had rotor warping issues?

Seems like its mostly with the baers.

Also i have heard baers customer service sucks donkey balls! :argue: :down:

No problems at all. Todd offers great service.

[Zack]

I haven't heard of any....

Waiting for Mr. Know-It-All to chime in.....

FYI you were the only one who was on my ignore list when I came back, guess you are gonna get signed back up!

When I meet you at MV8, ill be sure to take you for a ride so you can see just how I drive and brake...maybe then you will be convinced.

My Wildwoods warped!

[DOOM]

Zack i dont know how you drive your car. :burn: :drive:

But it seems the majority of wilwood owners dont have the problems or warping issues that you have had.

You may be the only one here to warp a set of wilwoods. :depress:

[ImpalaSlayer]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e374/Ice_Dragoness/Billy_Mays_Shut_Your_Whore_Mou th.jpg


dude that pic is awesome

:rofl:

[DOOM]

he means quality. as in my rotors warping within 3k miles

Whats the cost for replacing your baer rotors???

Only 3k miles i would be pissed!!! :mad2: :banghead: :argh:

[Zack]

Whats the cost for replacing your baer rotors???

Only 3k miles i would be pissed!!! :mad2: :banghead: :argh:

They are $340 from www.knsbrakes.com

Baer rotors are the worst ive ever seen....ever

[ImpalaSlayer]

Whats the cost for replacing your baer rotors???

Only 3k miles i would be pissed!!! :mad2: :banghead: :argh:

i bought em from Zack used but they had a fresh cut on them.

[Drewstang]

I'm going to ream this car pretty good this summer. We'll see how the Wilwoods hold up. If I have to buy rotors every season, so be it. If I have to clean brake dust off every week, I can live with it. But when I had brake fade at 80mph with stock brakes and ceramic pads, my mind was made up to upgrade these brakes ASAP.

[Zack]

I'm going to ream this car pretty good this summer. We'll see how the Wilwoods hold up. If I have to buy rotors every season, so be it. If I have to clean brake dust off every week, I can live with it. But when I had brake fade at 80mph with stock brakes and ceramic pads, my mind was made up to upgrade these brakes ASAP.


Remember, a stock Mach 1/Cobra Rotor is a direct replacement as long as you open up the hub .002.

When you put them side by side, you will see the OEM rotor is much beefier and has more internal webbing.

[fastblackmerc]

FYI you were the only one who was on my ignore list when I came back, guess you are gonna get signed back up!

When I meet you at MV8, ill be sure to take you for a ride so you can see just how I drive and brake...maybe then you will be convinced.

My Wildwoods warped!

Is that a threat or a promise?

Please tell me how I need to fix my Wilwoods to make them work better / correctly.

You must be the only one that can warp Wilwood rotors.

[DOOM]

That's what I'm waiting to hear!

What mods are needed to make wilwoods work better??? :confused:

[Drewstang]

Remember, a stock Mach 1/Cobra Rotor is a direct replacement as long as you open up the hub .002.

When you put them side by side, you will see the OEM rotor is much beefier and has more internal webbing.
Replacement for the Wilwood rotor? Hmm, off to the parts bin.....

[merc]

These are my replacement rotors I got from Todd a few months ago.

http://gallery.me.com/mwhite26/100297/DSC_0017/web.jpg?ver=12683396240001

http://gallery.me.com/mwhite26/100297/DSC_0023/web.jpg?ver=12683396280001

http://gallery.me.com/mwhite26/100297/DSC_0018/web.jpg?ver=12683396290001

http://jhmotorsports.com/products/pictures/LWrotors/JHM_B7-A4_B5-S4_321mm_Front_Rotor_Ring_Bett er_Center_Cooling.jpg

[DOOM]

What was the price for the replacements merc?

[merc]

What was the price for the replacements merc?

336.00 including shipping on 9/14/09. My old rotors are worn out

[DOOM]

Thanks for the info merc. :up:

Looks like these should last me a very long time! :D

[FordNut]

I'm going to ream this car pretty good this summer. We'll see how the Wilwoods hold up. If I have to buy rotors every season, so be it. If I have to clean brake dust off every week, I can live with it. But when I had brake fade at 80mph with stock brakes and ceramic pads, my mind was made up to upgrade these brakes ASAP.

Use metallic pads instead of ceramic.

[Drewstang]

Use metallic pads instead of ceramic.
I bought Wilwoods. I did find that using the Napa Adaptive One pads and Power Slot rotors helped alot. But 12 pistons are better than 4.

[Big Black Beast]

Dyno tune next week!

The brakes added 40 hp!!!

[Big Black Beast]

This was one of my biggest deciding factors in picking a big brake kit!

Also 6 pistons (wilwoods) instead of 2 pistons (baers)

And the baers arent available with black calipers.

Isn't your car BLUE?

I knew you were a closet BLACK freak!

[DOOM]

Isn't your car BLUE?

I knew you were a closet BLACK freak!

Blue!!! :eek:

FAIL!!! :puke:

[GAMike]

I feel like Glenn (Shorty Headers threads..... Sorry Glenn No offense mean't just a lil ribbing:D)

I have Baers, but have driven/flogged "Fruit Punch" (Dennis Watts' Trilogy with Wilwoods). I won't go into why I bought the Baers, as I have in other threads, and who really cares anyways:cool4:.

This is what I know
Marauders are heavy fn cars.... To get them to dance the way we do, brakes are gonna suffer terribly..... I don't care who's they are... Brembos too.

I have heard of Baers warping... 5-6 cases out of all the kits that have been sold.... (not bad)

I have never seen a thread/heard of the Wilwoods warping.

--- Both kits work great. 500% better than stock. In fact any kit you choose will be better than stock....... Baer, Wilwood, some "fabbed" Cobra kit any. The stock brakes weigh too much and fade too quickly..

--- Important differences between the 2 are:
Wilwoods have more pistons in a monoblock caliper, but less brake swept area.......
Baers have more brake swept area with a lower tech caliper......

Baers are way easier to install......

--- If your pad is not suited to the setup, you stand a good chance of screwing up your brakes.

--- If your pads are geared to a specific temperature range for optimum operation, and you ignore this operating temperature, quality friction will not be available to you, and warping may occur. Some pads work great day to day, but are dangerous for autocross, and vice versa.

--- If you live in a climate where temperature changes with the season, and you do not warm up your brake rotors before hard use, this will impact their lifespan. Much the same if you run very hot rotors, through a puddle and splash water up on them.

Now I'm not gonna say y'all don't drive, because I believe you do. Don't care for that mine is bigger than yours type conversation..... I will say that I was taught at a very early age by some very talented race drivers to place as much emphasis on my brakes as on other aspects of performance.

Before I got my wings clipped by the Sandy Springs GA Police & Tax Dept. back in October, I was a regular 100-120mph commuter (38 mi ea. way) and would frequently run with AMG's M5's or anything else expensive and fast.

If I were to do that up in MA all year long (where I am originally from) my brakes probably would not last too long either. GA weather and road conditions are much better for that kind of play.........Plus the MA State Police would probably shoot me on sight:burnout:

[fastblackmerc]

That's what I'm waiting to hear!

What mods are needed to make wilwoods work better??? :confused:

I think we are going to be waiting a looooooooooong time to find out........

[Mr. Man]

Pics Doomie?

[Marauderman]

WOW--

After reading all these pages--its amazing what all has been said--

For starters, I'm glad you got your brakes upgraded there Doom--which started this thread in the first place.

All the faster MM's just plain need that mod--regardless of the type brand --just do it as one member referred too.

Anyway, as most know- Like Ga MIke, I too have the Baers and I have not had any problems other that needing to have them turned after about 28K mikes.

Now I don' t hit hard on them but have had too on several occasions. I guess it comes down to definition in folks minds of what "hitting the brakes hard" over time really means ----what it does to one is not necessarily the same to another--you get the picture-

Either way, it will always come down to the material, the abuse, and how well it was made and broke in during initial use.

Over all , all the threads and posts I have read over the last 7 years here , the brakes said to have the most warping reported have been from/on the baers vs probably any other brand.--however this is not to say they are the worst over any other either. I have always wanted to know what was being done to the brakes to cause the warping in the first place--I don't ever recall any explanation other than the just the plain old "nothing--just the normal braking" excuse--which I find hard to believe-cause I do that and mine are fine--

GA Mike has said it best--just get upgraded brakes when you upgrade to more power---

And like GA Mike, what I think most don't care either-- but my baers are and have been find-- If I should need anything it will likely be pads and I got them in the box waiting.

The only thing about baer was it took to long to deliver them after ordering.

[Zack]

These rotors will cost you $145 and are much better built:

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?A=UBP86844_0259697 089&An=599001+102003+50026+2026026 #

[Drewstang]

Believe it or not, but I have warped a set of Napa Cobra rotors on my 95 GT with EBC pads. With that statement, you know why they warped, but I have still seen them warp with OEM and non-performance pads. Power slot also makes a set of replacement rotors for the Cobra, these lasted 10k miles before they warped.

Now, my driving style back then was very different. Every red light was a race, every curved road was Laguna Seca, and I was on the Vol Fire Dept making code 3 runs on a very busy 4 lane highway. I went through tires every 20-25k miles. I guess not much has changed, I'm just a little easier on my car now that other bills come before parts for the toys.

[DOOM]

For starters, I'm glad you got your brakes upgraded there Doom--which started this thread in the first place.

All the faster MM's just plain need that mod--regardless of the type brand --just do it as one member referred too.

GA Mike has said it best--just get upgraded brakes when you upgrade to more power---

Well said my friend. :beer:

I dont care what brand you go with!

But if you have a blower on your car you will need bigger brakes! :up:

Its no fun trying to get a +2 ton car to stop when you have BOOST!!! :drive:

[-Matt-]

But if you have a blower on your car you will need bigger brakes! :up:




I dont.... im going to leave it up to luck! :drive:

[DOOM]

I dont.... im going to leave it up to luck! :drive:

Trust me bro after you play around on the streets a lil bit you will see what i mean! ;)

Do you at least have "SS" brake lines???

[-Matt-]

Trust me bro after you play around on the streets a lil bit you will see what i mean! ;)

Do you at least have "SS" brake lines???


Who needs to stop? I just wanna gooooooooooo :burnout:

[DOOM]

Dont say i didn't warn ya bro! :rolleyes:

[Phrog_gunner]

Trust me bro after you play around on the streets a lil bit you will see what i mean! ;)

Do you at least have "SS" brake lines???

Glenn has the SS lines, therefore no other brake mod needed, EVER!

[CBT]

Who needs to stop? I just wanna gooooooooooo :burnout:
Dibs on the quote!!

[-Matt-]

I dont.... im going to leave it up to luck! :drive:


Dont say i didn't warn ya bro! :rolleyes:

Obvious sarcasm is obvious

[-Matt-]

Dibs on the quote!!


Finally something quote worthy....

You've been double quoted on my sig for a while now (cause im in love with you)

[CBT]

Finally something quote worthy....

You've been double quoted on my sig for a while now (cause im in love with you)

Hmmm....sounds like something we need to hug out. I mean work out.

[-Matt-]

Hmmm....sounds like something we need to hug out.

I would like that.

[Todd TCE]

Despite some of the obvious 'pissing contests' being tossed around here allow me to clear the air on a few issues please.

1. Rotors and bolts being of iron or steel will in due time rust despite the best attempts to plate them. Plating is simply a way to buy some time. Why do we plate rotors? I call it "box appeal"- they look good when you take them out of the box. None of this does anything for performance.

2. SS bolts are not something I'd take lightly for hat bolts. I used them for some time however. Problem is grading the quality of the material. Stainless is not a strong and tends to stretch and or be prone to deflection vs hardened steel. None of my kits use ss bolts any longer and all other hardware is either G8 or 10.9 grade. (*plated bolts are baked post plating for embrittlement issues)

3. Anodized surfaces such as those on older kits and all TCE hats can are subject to heat discoloring and also can be stained by some chemicals. Also prolonged exposure to high temps (yes they are brakes of course) or UV can fade anodized surfaces.

4. All pads dust so finding a pad that meets both ones driving expectations and visual appearances is difficult. No pad worth its salt for all out performance gains will not produce dust from the friction levels being asked of it. Wear rates can vary some of course but no pad regardless of brand will provide long life, low dust, low noise AND offer incredible bit.

5. "Warping" issues are common to any rotor when combined with both improper pad selection and use. Warping is not really warped...it's disc thickness variation caused by pad build up or smearing of the pad.

6. Limitations....given the choice to retain stock wheels this car has limits to fitting both alternate rotors and caliper. Despite that only the most hard core users will be effected for open track days over the base kits. Change wheels and one can move from a narrow body six pot on 1.10 rotors to W6a calipers on 1.25" rotors. Or you can add some 3/4" wheel spacers maybe...

7. Auto transmissions. With an auto trans this car will forever be hindered. Hot spotting which leads to the 'warping' will be a fact of life. The only choice is to learn to keep the brake temp under control and not haul down from 80mph to zero and sit with your foot on the pedal. That's not a brake problem, that's a driver problem. Localized break down of the pads under extreme temps and pressures is the root cause of the future warp.


I'm disappointed that I could not meet all Zaks needs with one product. But it was not for lack of trying various pads and such. You will never find a show car grade set up that remains functional for both street with all the niceties as well as being 'bad ass' track worthy at the same time. While over the years there have been some changes the root product remains the same today as it was years ago. Brakes will be like most performance mods; one of compromise.

[ImpalaSlayer]

Glenn has the SS lines, therefore no other brake mod needed, EVER!

pfffffffhahahahaha :drink:

you owe me a monitor

[Zack]

Despite some of the obvious 'pissing contests' being tossed around here allow me to clear the air on a few issues please.

5. "Warping" issues are common to any rotor when combined with both improper pad selection and use. Warping is not really warped...it's disc thickness variation caused by pad build up or smearing of the pad.

7. Auto transmissions. With an auto trans this car will forever be hindered. Hot spotting which leads to the 'warping' will be a fact of life. The only choice is to learn to keep the brake temp under control and not haul down from 80mph to zero and sit with your foot on the pedal. That's not a brake problem, that's a driver problem. Localized break down of the pads under extreme temps and pressures is the root cause of the future warp.


I'm disappointed that I could not meet all Zaks needs with one product. But it was not for lack of trying various pads and such. You will never find a show car grade set up that remains functional for both street with all the niceties as well as being 'bad ass' track worthy at the same time. While over the years there have been some changes the root product remains the same today as it was years ago. Brakes will be like most performance mods; one of compromise.

In response to #5, how do you explain a dial indicator moving all over the place when a warped rotor is on the brake lathe? Pad build-up in spots...not buying it, but im sure some others will.

In response to the rest of the stuff I quoted, and singling me out, let me just say this:
Not Baer, nor you ever owned a Marauder with your kits on them. Marauders are not mustangs and cant be treated the same in any regard. It is my firm belief that if both companies did some extensive R&D with their kits on the cars and DROVE them for months before marketing them, many changes would have been made over current parts used.

Back in the day when the average MM owner was 55+ and made a lot of money, 1500 for a brake kit seemed like chump change and inherent problems were just brushed off and repaired.
Now that the average owner is under 30, the vocal critics are gonna come out of the woodwork.

[Todd TCE]

The dial indicator is showing the high and low spot of the rotor based upon pad smear.

When stopped very hot pad binding agents break down and crystallization of the materials put a virtual imprint upon the rotor surface. In essence baking a portion of the pad material to the rotor. Future applications of the brakes have the current pad material bonding to that spot and smearing off of it in a simple tapered fashion. BUMP....SMeeeer...

Because pads use a transfer layer form of bonding pad materials like other pad materials. Not rotors really. Pads put down a thin layer of transfer to the friction surface and it bonds to the iron. Apply the brakes and it tries to grab what was laid down last time. (this is the reason some trouble can arise from pad swaps without cutting or cleaning the rotor surface- not all pads like each other especially those of carbon based compounds which others, even metallics can just glide over)

In most cases when asked what or how a warped rotor came to be the story is the same; car was fine/great, stopping was good, then one day it picked up a bit of a shimmy...then it went away, came back, went, came back and then got bigger, now shakes badly etc. etc. Often the come and go is from a hard application of the pedal that wipes clean a small transfer spot. But in time it becomes to much build up to wipe clean.

How to avoid it? Avoid hard applications that knowingly result in full stops. Example: 80mph down the off ramp to the red light. Sure the brakes will handle the stop- it's not a braking event that causes problems it AFTER you stop that things to to hell. Learn to take your foot off the pedal when you can by way of Neutral selection or at the least; creep the car at the light to avoid localized hot spots.

All this is not an isolated MM issues. As the owner of an 04 Titan I read all the time of guys on their umpteen set of pads or rotors. I have 84k on the truck and aside from the first recall for new pads at about 6k it's 100% stock and hardly shows wear. And yes it sees city use also. I don't see new pads for years for me. Or have any 'warp' issues to this day.

The Wilwood product and all others are very capable of meeting the demands of stopping and repeated stopping/cycling use. But stopping from 120mph and parking a car without ample cool down is just a death sentence to any brake system.

At risk of mentioning fellow suppliers, here's some more in depth reading:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml#


One of my favorite customer complaints one time was this submitted pic:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Rotors/heat_crack.jpg

Him: worked great on the track.
Me: then it cracked when you were in the pit?
Him: yea, I was sitting there and TING! Then this is what we saw.
Me: What a surprise....

[FordNut]

I don't have TCE brakes, so most of my comments are in reference to my brakes.

My rotors were for sure warped, it was not pad material buildup. On the brake lathe, the front would move in as the back would move out. Very obvious warpage.

The fix for me was getting rid of the KVR rotors and replacing them with the DBA rotors. The overall thickness is the same, but the thickness of the metal for the friction surfaces is much greater than the old ones were. The cooling fins in the middle became smaller, but the dimensions are actually closer to the OEM rotors. They don't warp easily like the thinner ones did.

I agree the cause of the problem is usually operator induced. Hard stop, then keep the foot on the brake and the car sitting still, concentrating heat under the pads.

[fastblackmerc]

Despite some of the obvious 'pissing contests' being tossed around here allow me to clear the air on a few issues please.

1. Rotors and bolts being of iron or steel will in due time rust despite the best attempts to plate them. Plating is simply a way to buy some time. Why do we plate rotors? I call it "box appeal"- they look good when you take them out of the box. None of this does anything for performance.

2. SS bolts are not something I'd take lightly for hat bolts. I used them for some time however. Problem is grading the quality of the material. Stainless is not a strong and tends to stretch and or be prone to deflection vs hardened steel. None of my kits use ss bolts any longer and all other hardware is either G8 or 10.9 grade. (*plated bolts are baked post plating for embrittlement issues)

3. Anodized surfaces such as those on older kits and all TCE hats can are subject to heat discoloring and also can be stained by some chemicals. Also prolonged exposure to high temps (yes they are brakes of course) or UV can fade anodized surfaces.

4. All pads dust so finding a pad that meets both ones driving expectations and visual appearances is difficult. No pad worth its salt for all out performance gains will not produce dust from the friction levels being asked of it. Wear rates can vary some of course but no pad regardless of brand will provide long life, low dust, low noise AND offer incredible bit.

5. "Warping" issues are common to any rotor when combined with both improper pad selection and use. Warping is not really warped...it's disc thickness variation caused by pad build up or smearing of the pad.

6. Limitations....given the choice to retain stock wheels this car has limits to fitting both alternate rotors and caliper. Despite that only the most hard core users will be effected for open track days over the base kits. Change wheels and one can move from a narrow body six pot on 1.10 rotors to W6a calipers on 1.25" rotors. Or you can add some 3/4" wheel spacers maybe...

7. Auto transmissions. With an auto trans this car will forever be hindered. Hot spotting which leads to the 'warping' will be a fact of life. The only choice is to learn to keep the brake temp under control and not haul down from 80mph to zero and sit with your foot on the pedal. That's not a brake problem, that's a driver problem. Localized break down of the pads under extreme temps and pressures is the root cause of the future warp.


I'm disappointed that I could not meet all Zaks needs with one product. But it was not for lack of trying various pads and such. You will never find a show car grade set up that remains functional for both street with all the niceties as well as being 'bad ass' track worthy at the same time. While over the years there have been some changes the root product remains the same today as it was years ago. Brakes will be like most performance mods; one of compromise.

Now that's why I went with a TCE front kit for my MM. Todd knows his stuff!

Todd, hope you've read this entire thread and like some of us are waiting for Zack (Mr. Blowhard) to provide the info on how to make the Wilwoods work better.......

[Phrog_gunner]

Lot's of good info. It's always good to learn something new.

[Hotrauder]

My experience has mirrored Todd's coments above and Jim's experience. You will get pad adherence to the rotor if you sit with the brakes on following repeated hard braking to a stop. Friction builds heat and these babies create friction! It feels like warped rotors. I know because it happened to the FruitPunch when TAF was exploring the fun factor of the Trilogy Twin Screw. It is easy to avoid, don't do it. It is easy to fix and shifting to neutral when stopped prevents adhesion. In 20K miles, not driven like Zack(who could possibly drive like Zack:rolleyes:) fun filled and aggressive, including 10 twenty five minute minute road course race sessions at Sebring; with not one problem. They still look as good as they function. Wilwood big brakes are the BEST mod I have made and I have made most of them. :) Dennis

[Zack]

Guys, all I am saying is this:

For $1500 and whomevers kit is on your car, you should be able to do anything you want with the brakes and never have to sorry about them.

Stock brakes dont come with a list of do's and dont's and are certainly more forgiving than aftermarket brakes.. Sure they dont stop as good but maybe you get the point.

[RR|Suki]

Todd's advice on this has been my experience as far as rotors go. I have had baers on my car for 30k miles and the rotors have not warped. I put pads on it when I got the car and treated the break in like I do on my race car. What I do have are fine cracks around the drill holes, which apparently isn't uncommon, and also baer customer service does suck a lot. When I change rotors I've certainly be switching to DBA.

Maybe they were using better rotors back in 03, I dunno, has to be that or user error in my mind.

[Drewstang]

Lots of un-needed name calling going on here for a chat about brakes.

[Todd TCE]

I can do this on the MM if someone wants too:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Magnum%20Charger%20300C/IMG_1639.jpg


I know everyone has their own take on brake issues. It's no different with tires and other things. What I can tell you from 18yrs of doing this is that nearly every platform I have "issues" with as described is that of an Automatic transmission. And most are also heavy vehicles; yours, Impala, Lightning, Charger.....you get the idea.

The only way (other than that which we've covered) to help prevent the problems is more mass in the rotor. Moving to 14" rotors from 13s greatly increases the swept area and the ability to absorb and dissipate heat. Moving from 1.10 width to 1.25 or 1.375 increases air gap and aides in lower operating temps. There's really no magic here. I'd like to think that all the aftermarket kits are better than stock....but reality is that even at that they may not be all they could be. No mystery as to how "to make the Wilwoods better", we just need room for larger product.

If you're new to all this banter, the problem is that space is limited to the cast aluminum upright on the inside of the rotor and the spokes on the outside of the rotor. Call that perhaps 4" of space. The problem is that you can't squeeze 6" of necessary mass into that 4" space. The current set up is a 1.10 rotor with a 'narrow body' SL6 caliper that is lug mounted. It's conceivable that we might be able to fit a radial mount SL6 on a 1.25" wide rotor.....but this will require both a more costly caliper ($65ea) and far more costly brackets and hardware ($150ea) to do it. Is this near $500 expense worth it? I dunno...

I'll openly say there are things about this kit that I don't feel are ideal. But given all the circumstances I'm managed to fill that 4" as best we can.

[Hotrauder]

I can do this on the MM if someone wants too:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Magnum%20Charger%20300C/IMG_1639.jpg



I know everyone has their own take on brake issues. It's no different with tires and other things. What I can tell you from 18yrs of doing this is that nearly every platform I have "issues" with as described is that of an Automatic transmission. And most are also heavy vehicles; yours, Impala, Lightning, Charger.....you get the idea.

The only way (other than that which we've covered) to help prevent the problems is more mass in the rotor. Moving to 14" rotors from 13s greatly increases the swept area and the ability to absorb and dissipate heat. Moving from 1.10 width to 1.25 or 1.375 increases air gap and aides in lower operating temps. There's really no magic here. I'd like to think that all the aftermarket kits are better than stock....but reality is that even at that they may not be all they could be. No mystery as to how "to make the Wilwoods better", we just need room for larger product.

If you're new to all this banter, the problem is that space is limited to the cast aluminum upright on the inside of the rotor and the spokes on the outside of the rotor. Call that perhaps 4" of space. The problem is that you can't squeeze 6" of necessary mass into that 4" space. The current set up is a 1.10 rotor with a 'narrow body' SL6 caliper that is lug mounted. It's conceivable that we might be able to fit a radial mount SL6 on a 1.25" wide rotor.....but this will require both a more costly caliper ($65ea) and far more costly brackets and hardware ($150ea) to do it. Is this near $500 expense worth it? I dunno...

I'll openly say there are things about this kit that I don't feel are ideal. But given all the circumstances I'm managed to fill that 4" as best we can.

Todd, I would love to at least talk about this upgrade to my kit. I have no problems but I also believe that there is no such thing as to much braking ability especially in a S/C car as heavy as our Marauders. Dennis

[Todd TCE]

Todd, I would love to at least talk about this upgrade to my kit. I have no problems but I also believe that there is no such thing as to much braking ability especially in a S/C car as heavy as our Marauders. Dennis

Sadly Dennis there is no way to "upgrade" to this type of product. The only parts taken from any of the current kits and fit to this would be the hose kit. Everything else would be totally new. And with stock wheels you'd need to move the wheel out roughly 1/2" to clear the calipers which are faaaarr larger in size not to mention the full 14"d rotor.

[fastblackmerc]

Guys, all I am saying is this:

For $1500 and whomevers kit is on your car, you should be able to do anything you want with the brakes and never have to sorry about them.

Stock brakes dont come with a list of do's and dont's and are certainly more forgiving than aftermarket brakes.. Sure they dont stop as good but maybe you get the point.

I've done anything I want with my TCE/Wilwood brakes and am not sorry I spent the money.

[hemihotrod402]

um, can someone post the PArt #s for both the front and rear wilwood brake kits? I went to their site and found nothing

[fastblackmerc]

um, can someone post the PArt #s for both the front and rear wilwood brake kits? I went to their site and found nothing

Your not going to find P/N's. Todd (TCE) sells these "kits". The calipers are machined specifically for the Marauder and the caliper mounting plate is specially made.

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/cgi-bin/brakes/cginews.pl?record=11

[Todd TCE]

That's correct, thanks for clearing it up.

The kits are actually TCE kits, using (in part) Wilwood product.

I have also completed the new "caliper kit" for the front today and hope to see it in action soon. Pics to follow.

[hemihotrod402]

ok, Thanks!

[Todd TCE]

Here are the BSL4 on stock rotor pics as promised.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Marauder/P1010007.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Marauder/P1010009.jpg


BSL4 radial mounts, 1.75 bore, dust booted, BP10 pads, ss braided hose etc. Use stock bolts and supplied shim kit as necessary. *Will require some clearance filing/grinding of alum knuckle for fit as shown. (actually this one is cut on a few times more than needed)

[Spectragod]

I can do this on the MM if someone wants too:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Magnum%20Charger%20300C/IMG_1639.jpg


I know everyone has their own take on brake issues. It's no different with tires and other things. What I can tell you from 18yrs of doing this is that nearly every platform I have "issues" with as described is that of an Automatic transmission. And most are also heavy vehicles; yours, Impala, Lightning, Charger.....you get the idea.

The only way (other than that which we've covered) to help prevent the problems is more mass in the rotor. Moving to 14" rotors from 13s greatly increases the swept area and the ability to absorb and dissipate heat. Moving from 1.10 width to 1.25 or 1.375 increases air gap and aides in lower operating temps. There's really no magic here. I'd like to think that all the aftermarket kits are better than stock....but reality is that even at that they may not be all they could be. No mystery as to how "to make the Wilwoods better", we just need room for larger product.

If you're new to all this banter, the problem is that space is limited to the cast aluminum upright on the inside of the rotor and the spokes on the outside of the rotor. Call that perhaps 4" of space. The problem is that you can't squeeze 6" of necessary mass into that 4" space. The current set up is a 1.10 rotor with a 'narrow body' SL6 caliper that is lug mounted. It's conceivable that we might be able to fit a radial mount SL6 on a 1.25" wide rotor.....but this will require both a more costly caliper ($65ea) and far more costly brackets and hardware ($150ea) to do it. Is this near $500 expense worth it? I dunno...

I'll openly say there are things about this kit that I don't feel are ideal. But given all the circumstances I'm managed to fill that 4" as best we can.

I too would be good to go with that setup, if I could get my stock wheels over them.

More braking abilty is a good thing. :D

[Todd TCE]

Nothing that a one inch or so spacer wouldn't fix....!

[Spectragod]

Nothing that a one inch or so spacer wouldn't fix....!

Uhhhhhhhhh, no. I'll pass on the spacers. Besides, I already thought about it......

[BUCKWHEAT]

This past sunday i got around to installing my wilwood's
Took it for a test drive and tapped the brake pedal and the car took a nose dive! :D

This is easily one of the best (and smartest) mods i have ever done.



Doom, my head is spinning & I only read half way thru this thread. I have had the 6 Piston Wilwoods for five years. I cooked the first set of rotors on the road course. I have replaced pads with both racing and street. The former definitely create dust...so just wash the front wheels. Recently, performance had degraded. It appears that the pistons had to some degree rusted in the bores. Todd at TCE sent me kits with improved pistons & they're going in soon. I expect the brakes will be back to 100% & I will be wearing my seat belt. You won't be disappointed in the Wilwoods.

[DEW34]

Todd how much brake improvement would this have over the stock caliper? how will this setup compare to the 13 inch kit as far as stoping power ?
mike#90

[Todd TCE]

Todd how much brake improvement would this have over the stock caliper? how will this setup compare to the 13 inch kit as far as stoping power ?
mike#90

All things being equal...you'll pick up about 3% more rear brake bias as the piston size of the four pot is slightly less than that of the stock caliper. Meaning you will have to (like the six pot) push a bit harder on the pedal to achieve the same clamp load.

But...the upside is that this is often the linear feel and improved response and modulation missing in any sliding caliper design. It won't (like the six) magically make more "stopping power" only change the distribution of what is available.

Being on the smaller 12" rotor, not the 13" size we cannot use more "leverage" in the equation but need to still rely on clamping too. For many the improved response and appearance alone is worth the effort. In the case of my 'beta customer' they wanted far superior track pads and ease of pad service. The rotors are simply disposable $30 items for hard use and far more cost effective for their use.

[Todd TCE]

Todd, I would love to at least talk about this upgrade to my kit. I have no problems but I also believe that there is no such thing as to much braking ability especially in a S/C car as heavy as our Marauders. Dennis



FWIW, here is roughly a size comparison of the W6a and a narrow body BSL6. *this is the radial version of the BSL6 but the lug mount I use for the 13" kit is very similar and share the same pads.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/Mustang-%20SN95%20and%20S197/W6AandBSL6r.jpg

[DOOM]

Thinking of doing the rears this summer.

[Shaijack]

I love it when you show such brotherly love. Thanks for the info.