Health Care, Obama.....

[Bluerauder]

Response from local NJ congressman. You make the call.
Sincerely,

Mr X
Member of Congress :

Why would I believe anything from a guy who signs his name as "Mr. X, Member of Congress" ??? :rolleyes:

What no mention of the provision that kicks in in 2012 that says "Medicare payments will be reduced for preventable re-hospitalizations"? Who decides what is preventable? Who decides how much payment is reduced? Who pays the difference? This smacks of care rationing through increased cost to the patient.

The statement about federal funds for abortion is an outright lie. The Hyde Amendment was not approved nor incorporated into the final version of the law. President Obama said that he would sign an Executive Order that makes it so. Unfortunately, no Executive Order can trump the Law. So, unless the current Law is amended, abortions can be federally funded. Looks like some of those holdouts got duped into saying Yes on a flakey promise. Of course, the worthless Executive Order hasn't been signed either. :rolleyes:

There are alot of good things that this bill will address. Too bad that there are also a bunch of things that will just be waiting to bite the unsuspecting public in the ass a few years from now.

[Mr. Man]

Our representatives in NJ all sign their names with an X as they are all on the take. This way its impossible to trace which numbnut signed what.

[jerrym3]

Folks, I changed the name to Mr X.

[sailsmen]

Our Gov't continues to knowingly Budget our economic collapse.
"That level of debt is extremely problematic, particularly given the upward debt path beyond the 10-year budget window," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.
"The proposed budget is woefully insufficient to achieve the president's goal or the important fiscal goal of stabilizing the debt at a reasonable level in the medium and long term," Ms. MacGuineas said.
For the 2016-20 period, CBO estimates that deficits will average more than 5 percent of GDP, even while assuming the economy will be near full employment, with an average jobless rate of 5 percent during that same five-year period.
"Deficits in the, let's say, 5 percent of GDP range would lead to rising debt-to-GDP ratios in a manner that would ultimately not be sustainable," Mr. Orszag, the President's OMB Director, acknowledged to reporters on March 20, 2009, two months after the administration entered office.
D. Elmendorf, CBO Director, appointed by the current Congress, - In speaking about 2009 "Federal Debt held by the public will equal about 60% of GDP by the end of this fiscal year, the highest level since the early 1950's. As a result, further large deficits and increases in the debt will raise serious economic risks."
Former Tres Sec Rubin, appointed by Pres Clinton, states - "The United States faces projected 10-year federal budget deficits that seriously threaten its bond market, exchange rate, economy, and the economic future of every American worker and family. " -"The commission also found that no economy anywhere in the world had been successful with largely state-directed activities and high walls against global integration.
The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that a market-based model is still the best way forward. ", (Rubin wrote in NewsWeek, 12-29-09)

Originally published 04:00 a.m., March 26, 2010, updated 06:51 a.m., March 27, 2010
WASHINGTON TIMES
CBO report: Debt will rise to 90% of GDP


David M. Dickson
President Obama's fiscal 2011 budget will generate nearly $10 trillion in cumulative budget deficits over the next 10 years, $1.2 trillion more than the administration projected, and raise the federal debt to 90 percent of the nation's economic output by 2020, the Congressional Budget Office reported Thursday.
In its 2011 budget, which the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) released Feb. 1, the administration projected a 10-year deficit total of $8.53 trillion. After looking it over, CBO said in its final analysis, released Thursday, that the president's budget would generate a combined $9.75 trillion in deficits over the next decade.
"An additional $1.2 trillion in debt dumped on [GDP] to our children makes a huge difference," said Brian Riedl, a budget analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "That represents an additional debt of $10,000 per household above and beyond the federal debt they are already carrying."
The federal public debt, which was $6.3 trillion ($56,000 per household) when Mr. Obama entered office amid an economic crisis, totals $8.2 trillion ($72,000 per household) today, and it's headed toward $20.3 trillion (more than $170,000 per household) in 2020, according to CBO's deficit estimates.
That figure would equal 90 percent of the estimated gross domestic product in 2020, up from 40 percent at the end of fiscal 2008. By comparison, America's debt-to-GDP ratio peaked at 109 percent at the end of World War II, while the ratio for economically troubled Greece hit 115 percent last year.
"That level of debt is extremely problematic, particularly given the upward debt path beyond the 10-year budget window," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.
For countries with debt-to-GDP ratios "above 90 percent, median growth rates fall by 1 percent, and average growth falls considerably more," according to a recent research paper by economists Kenneth S. Rogoff of Harvard and Carmen M. Reinhart of the University of Maryland.
CBO projected the 2011 deficit will be $1.34 trillion, not much different from the administration's estimate of $1.27 trillion. However, CBO's estimate of the 2020 deficit at $1.25 trillion significantly exceeds the administration's $1 trillion estimate.
"The biggest part of the deficit difference is lower tax revenue due to the different economic assumptions," said James R. Horney, a federal-budget analyst at the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. "The administration assumes GDP and incomes will be higher, and that translates into higher revenues than CBO expects. Relatively small differences in economic assumptions can add up to big differences over 10 years."
While Ms. MacGuineas agreed that "economic forecasts have a large impact on budgetary projections," she cautioned that such differing assumptions, often called the "rosy scenario," could account for just $350 billion of the 10-year, $1.2 trillion difference between the White House and CBO.
The president has established a fiscal commission to propose actions to reach his goal of balancing the budget by 2015, except for net interest payments, which CBO projects to total $520 billion that year. The president's budget, however, will generate a $793 billion deficit in 2015, according to CBO.
"The proposed budget is woefully insufficient to achieve the president's goal or the important fiscal goal of stabilizing the debt at a reasonable level in the medium and long term," Ms. MacGuineas said.
The CBO and the administration expect the deficit for fiscal 2010, which ends Sept. 30, to approximate $1.5 trillion and exceed 10 percent of GDP, the first time that threshold will have been reached since World War II. Before last year's deficit reached an eye-popping 9.9 percent of GDP, the biggest postwar deficit was 6 percent of GDP in fiscal 1983.
In addition to the free-spending fiscal policy the U.S. government will pursue, monetary policy will remain loose in the near term, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke told a congressional committee Thursday.
Citing still-fragile economic conditions and noting the low level of inflation, Mr. Bernanke told the House Financial Services Committee that the Fed would maintain historically low short-term interest rates for the time being.
Tightening would not begin until the "expansion matures," he said, though he did not provide a specific timetable for ratcheting up interest rates.
Indicative of the economy's ongoing fragility, especially in the labor market, was the fact that first-time claims for unemployment benefits were still a relatively high 442,000 last week, the Labor Department reported Thursday. The number was a decline of 14,000 over the previous week's seasonally adjusted number.
Economists disagree over the propriety of running a $1.5 trillion deficit this year as the economy shifts into recovery mode. But they generally agree that budget deficits should proceed along a consistent, downward path as the expansion matures. Most economists, therefore, fear the prospect of rising deficits in the latter part of this decade, long after steady economic growth has returned and unemployment has plunged.
In a worrisome development, CBO projects that federal budget deficits, after dropping sharply, then will begin to rise continuously from 4.1 percent of GDP in 2014 to 5.6 percent in 2020.
For the 2016-20 period, CBO estimates that deficits will average more than 5 percent of GDP, even while assuming the economy will be near full employment, with an average jobless rate of 5 percent during that same five-year period.
One economist concerned about unsustainable fiscal policy in the out years is OMB Director Peter R. Orszag.
"Deficits in the, let's say, 5 percent of GDP range would lead to rising debt-to-GDP ratios in a manner that would ultimately not be sustainable," Mr. Orszag acknowledged to reporters on March 20, 2009, two months after the administration entered office.

[LeoVampire]

A Lay-off letter from an excellent boss!


Dear Employees:

As the CEO of this organization, I have resigned myself to the fact that
Barrack Obama is our President and that our taxes and government fees will
increase in a BIG way.

To compensate for these increases, our prices would have to increase by
about 10%. But since we cannot increase our prices right now due to the
dismal state of the economy, we will have to lay off sixty of our employees
instead.

This has really been bothering me since I believe we are family here and I
didn't know how to choose who would have to go.

So, this is what I did. I walked through our parking lot and found sixty
'Obama' bumper stickers on our employees' cars and have decided these folks
will be the ones to let go. I can't think of a more fair way to approach
this problem. They voted for change...... I gave it to them.

I will see the rest of you at the annual company picnic..


THE BOSS

[ddogg626]

I'm with ya in Jail.

[ddogg626]

I mean come on people. What has happened to the America of the 1950's and 1960's. Where we pay for a great free country with hard work. Everybody does as much as they can for themselves. No one just waits for a check to come in the mail or waits on somebody else to do everything for them. I mean these days I work hard for my money of which half of it gets taken from me. So then on the weekends when I hang out in a parking lot talking to 3 other car enthusiast about cars I get run off by Cobb County (GESTAPO) POLICE in the name of public safety. With the explanation that a gathering of people in a parking lot frightens the tax payers. I mean WTF any of us there had paid more in taxes that year than the cop made. I'm scared for the future for this once great country.

[sailsmen]

Frist Friday of the month a town nearby has a block party. They close off 1 street and cars park, cruise in style. Band, BBQ, etc.
Last nite they posted rules, only classic cars, defined as over 20 years old.

Last year I called and they said please bring the MM, it is a draw.

This year a City Police Officer write his badge # on the rules and "do not bring this car back" and he writes down my plate number. He did the same for 8 other cars.

They have old MG and Mercedes. Since when have they been considered "classic"?

Under what authority does the POLICE have to tell me I can't bring my car to a public event?

WELCOME TO AMERIKA! LAND OF THE ENSLAVED AND HOME OF THE OPRESSORS!

[B.C. Bake]

It's funny, as many people as I ask, they don't like this bill or even know what it is:confused: Why didn't the American people get to vote on this "HISTORIC" bill?:censor:.........:bs:

[-Matt-]

Frist Friday of the month a town nearby has a block party. They close off 1 street and cars park, cruise in style. Band, BBQ, etc.
Last nite they posted rules, only classic cars, defined as over 20 years old.

Last year I called and they said please bring the MM, it is a draw.

This year a City Police Officer write his badge # on the rules and "do not bring this car back" and he writes down my plate number. He did the same for 8 other cars.

They have old MG and Mercedes. Since when have they been considered "classic"?

Under what authority does the POLICE have to tell me I can't bring my car to a public event?

WELCOME TO AMERIKA! LAND OF THE ENSLAVED AND HOME OF THE OPRESSORS!


Fight the power!

[Phrog_gunner]

Frist Friday of the month a town nearby has a block party. They close off 1 street and cars park, cruise in style. Band, BBQ, etc.
Last nite they posted rules, only classic cars, defined as over 20 years old.

Last year I called and they said please bring the MM, it is a draw.

This year a City Police Officer write his badge # on the rules and "do not bring this car back" and he writes down my plate number. He did the same for 8 other cars.

They have old MG and Mercedes. Since when have they been considered "classic"?

Under what authority does the POLICE have to tell me I can't bring my car to a public event?

WELCOME TO AMERIKA! LAND OF THE ENSLAVED AND HOME OF THE OPRESSORS!

Let's get a road trip together and have so many MMs there he gets carpal tunnel (sp?) trying to write notes on them all. Then we all file complaints that our cars were vandalized. Obviously nothing would happen, but we'd annoy the crap out of them.

[FordNut]

"By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY
Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.
Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.
CHART: Federal salaries compared to private-sector
These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis."

And they think federal government running the student loan program is going to save money?

[FordNut]

I don't think it's too extreme to see that as a possibility, not one bit. The only thing that'll prevent that is the prior posted story about the government hard-on now for cutting motorized transportation in favor of "walking and bicycling". I guess we know what the government is gonna do with GM in the future now...

The "walking and bicycling" trails and roads will be paid for by taxes on motorized transportation.

[ddogg626]

Let's get a road trip together and have so many MMs there he gets carpal tunnel (sp?) trying to write notes on them all. Then we all file complaints that our cars were vandalized. Obviously nothing would happen, but we'd annoy the crap out of them.

I'm in, just lemme know when we ride out.

[LIGHTNIN1]

And they think federal government running the student loan program is going to save money?

I hear that stunt is going to cost the US 30,000 jobs as it puts the companies that used to do the loans out of business or they have to do layoffs.Everything they touch is a disaster and puts people out of work. I am jockeying for a place under the bridge.

[jerrym3]

We, the people, cannot vote on a particular bill. We elect people to represent us. We live in a republic, not a pure democracy. Besides, would you want to vote on every bill? Where do you draw the line?

How many of us would actually read a 2,000 page bill? Or, would we just take the words of Beck or Obermann?

If you don't like the way your rep voted, vote him out next election. That's how we function.

I am so tired of the rhetoric from both sides. They want ratings. They will say ANYTHING to get you p*****d off enough to watch their BS.

Even the head of FOX said on Sunday TV a few weeks ago, "we are in the ratings business". He didn't say that they are in the "information of US Citizens" business.

O'Reilly is looking out for you? O'Reilly is looking out for O'Reilly.

It's pure entertainment. Anything to get you to watch so they can get the advertisers to pay more.

[Leadfoot281]

We, the people, cannot vote on a particular bill. We elect people to represent us. We live in a republic, not a pure democracy. Besides, would you want to vote on every bill? Where do you draw the line?

How many of us would actually read a 2,000 page bill? Or, would we just take the words of Beck or Obermann?

If you don't like the way your rep voted, vote him out next election. That's how we function.

I am so tired of the rhetoric from both sides. They want ratings. They will say ANYTHING to get you p*****d off enough to watch their BS.

Even the head of FOX said on Sunday TV a few weeks ago, "we are in the ratings business". He didn't say that they are in the "information of US Citizens" business.

O'Reilly is looking out for you? O'Reilly is looking out for O'Reilly.

It's pure entertainment. Anything to get you to watch so they can get the advertisers to pay more.

I generally agree with this except in representative democracy our president would not have told America to go pound sand. That's excatly what happened last Monday. As I said before, The republicans didn't want it, the Dems didn't want it, the American people didn't want it, and the States didn't want.

Obama told us all to go pound sand, STFU, and go fly a kite.

[Mr. Man]

I hear that stunt is going to cost the US 30,000 jobs as it puts the companies that used to do the loans out of business or they have to do layoffs.Everything they touch is a disaster and puts people out of workI am jockeying for a place under the bridge. . Dibs on your floor mats:D

[CBT]

Good points. I would actually read the bill, tho. I love reading. If I were in office, any bill I was not given ample time to read would automatically get a NO vote, no matter who or what political party proposed it.


We, the people, cannot vote on a particular bill. We elect people to represent us. We live in a republic, not a pure democracy. Besides, would you want to vote on every bill? Where do you draw the line?

How many of us would actually read a 2,000 page bill? Or, would we just take the words of Beck or Obermann?

If you don't like the way your rep voted, vote him out next election. That's how we function.

I am so tired of the rhetoric from both sides. They want ratings. They will say ANYTHING to get you p*****d off enough to watch their BS.

Even the head of FOX said on Sunday TV a few weeks ago, "we are in the ratings business". He didn't say that they are in the "information of US Citizens" business.

O'Reilly is looking out for you? O'Reilly is looking out for O'Reilly.

It's pure entertainment. Anything to get you to watch so they can get the advertisers to pay more.

[SC Cheesehead]

Good points. I would actually read the bill, tho. I love reading. If I were in office, any bill I was not given ample time to read would automatically get a NO vote, no matter who or what political party proposed it.

BIG +1 on that! ^^^^^^^

[Bluerauder]

Good points. I would actually read the bill, tho. I love reading. If I were in office, any bill I was not given ample time to read would automatically get a NO vote, no matter who or what political party proposed it.
If the volume of :bs: bills is anywhere near what the legislative load is in Virginia, I am not so sure that any individual could read them all. Last year it was more than 2,000 bills. I guess this is what the Congressional Staffers do all the time ... bill reading and research.

I was on a "Bill Reading Task Force" for our local representative for a couple years. The sheer volume of crappola that gets incorporated into these bills is incredible. Moreover, it is really difficult to tell the real meaty issues/bills from the one's that want to name a bridge after some dufus that took out a guardrail and killed himself there or the let's approve a vanity plate design for some obscure group.

Budget bills are really fun --- it is so convoluted that it is hard to figure out what is happening. Complicating the entire process is the fact that all of this stuff is written by legislation lawyers using legal jargon-mumbo jumbo and double and triple negatives that it is hard to figure out if this is something you are "for" or maybe "against". This is the way that they word "Referendum" questions too.

I gave up on the Bill Reading Task Force after 2 years ..... :o The process itself is broken.

[SC Cheesehead]

C.Y.C.B.I...

"The end of freedom in medicine"
By 970 WFLA
Monday, March 29, 2010
TUCSON, Ariz. (970 WFLA) - The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) became the first medical society to sue to overturn the newly enacted health care bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA). AAPS sued Friday in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia (AAPS v. Sebelius et al.).


“If the PPACA goes unchallenged, then it spells the end of freedom in medicine as we know it,” observed Jane Orient, M.D., the Executive Director of AAPS. “Courts should not allow this massive intrusion into the practice of medicine and the rights of patients.”


“There will be a dire shortage of physicians if the PPACA becomes effective and is not overturned by the courts.”


The PPACA requires most Americans to buy government-approved insurance starting in 2014, or face stiff penalties. Insurance company executives will be enriched by this requirement, but the AAPS says it violates the Fifth Amendment protection against the government forcing one person to pay cash to another. AAPS is the first to assert this important constitutional claim.


The PPACA also violates the Tenth Amendment, the Commerce Clause, and the provisions authorizing taxation, the AAPS says. The Taxing and Spending power cannot be invoked, as the premiums go to private insurance companies. The traditional sovereignty of the States over the practice of medicine is destroyed by the PPACA.


AAPS notes that in scoring the proposal the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) was bound by assumptions imposed by Congress, including the ability to “save” $500 billion in Medicare, and to redirect $50 billion from Social Security. HHS Secretary Sebelius stated that PPACA would reduce the federal deficit, knowing the opposite to be true if these assumptions are unrealistic.


AAPS asks the Court to enjoin the government from promulgating or enforcing insurance mandates and require HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and Social Security Commissioner Michael Astrue to provide the Court with an accounting of Medicare and Social Security solvency.


Congress recognized that PPACA cannot be funded without the insurance mandates, and will become unenforceable without them.


Court action is necessary “to preserve individual liberty” and “to prevent PPACA from bankrupting the United States generally and Medicare and Social Security specifically,” AAPS stated.

http://970wfla.com (http://970wfla.com)

[CBT]

Holy ****ing ****, they didn't just sue them, they sued them IN D.C., even better!!!


C.Y.C.B.I...

"The end of freedom in medicine"
By 970 WFLA
Monday, March 29, 2010
TUCSON, Ariz. (970 WFLA) - The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) became the first medical society to sue to overturn the newly enacted health care bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA). AAPS sued Friday in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia (AAPS v. Sebelius et al.).


“If the PPACA goes unchallenged, then it spells the end of freedom in medicine as we know it,” observed Jane Orient, M.D., the Executive Director of AAPS. “Courts should not allow this massive intrusion into the practice of medicine and the rights of patients.”


“There will be a dire shortage of physicians if the PPACA becomes effective and is not overturned by the courts.”


The PPACA requires most Americans to buy government-approved insurance starting in 2014, or face stiff penalties. Insurance company executives will be enriched by this requirement, but the AAPS says it violates the Fifth Amendment protection against the government forcing one person to pay cash to another. AAPS is the first to assert this important constitutional claim.


The PPACA also violates the Tenth Amendment, the Commerce Clause, and the provisions authorizing taxation, the AAPS says. The Taxing and Spending power cannot be invoked, as the premiums go to private insurance companies. The traditional sovereignty of the States over the practice of medicine is destroyed by the PPACA.


AAPS notes that in scoring the proposal the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) was bound by assumptions imposed by Congress, including the ability to “save” $500 billion in Medicare, and to redirect $50 billion from Social Security. HHS Secretary Sebelius stated that PPACA would reduce the federal deficit, knowing the opposite to be true if these assumptions are unrealistic.


AAPS asks the Court to enjoin the government from promulgating or enforcing insurance mandates and require HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and Social Security Commissioner Michael Astrue to provide the Court with an accounting of Medicare and Social Security solvency.


Congress recognized that PPACA cannot be funded without the insurance mandates, and will become unenforceable without them.


Court action is necessary “to preserve individual liberty” and “to prevent PPACA from bankrupting the United States generally and Medicare and Social Security specifically,” AAPS stated.

http://970wfla.com (http://970wfla.com)

[LIGHTNIN1]

These crooks are low class crooks. At least Madoff had a little class about scamming his investors. The lawsuits will mount with individuals that can afford it suing also.

[FordNut]

Medicare savings...
Here's one of the ways they plan to accomplish that feat: As of April 1 physician payments are reduced by 21% for medicare patients. The payments from medicare are already considerably lower than private insurance and are near the break-even point. Medicaid payments are even lower and are already below cost in many instances.

Get ready for a groundswell in healthcare providers refusing to accept patients with medicare/medicaid.

[SC Cheesehead]

Medicare savings...
Here's one of the ways they plan to accomplish that feat: As of April 1 physician payments are reduced by 21% for medicare patients. The payments from medicare are already considerably lower than private insurance and are near the break-even point. Medicaid payments are even lower and are already below cost in many instances.

Get ready for a groundswell in healthcare providers refusing to accept patients with medicare/medicaid.

The clinic were my wife works loses money on every medicaid patient they have.

Already happening. Some clinics have served notice no new Meidcare/Medicaid patients accepted after a certain date.

[FordNut]

The clinic were my wife works loses money on every medicaid patient they have.

Already happening. Some clinics have served notice no new Meidcare/Medicaid patients accepted after a certain date.

So that's the government's strategy. If nobody accepts it, then they won't have any claims to pay!

[LIGHTNIN1]

So that's the government's strategy. If nobody accepts it, then they won't have any claims to pay!

I think you are on to something there. Remember Social Security when the tax money coming in for it was being put into an account.Then somewhere along the line Congress saw all that money sitting there and could not keep there hands off it . That is one reason it is broke today. With all the taxes that will be coming in for the Healthcare bill, I think Congress saw all that money ahead of time and that is one of the biggest resons for the bill, not healthcare. They will spend the money on other things and they don't care about the healthcare aspect of it.

[Bluerauder]

So that's the government's strategy. If nobody accepts it, then they won't have any claims to pay!
And if "they" decide that the hospitalization was "preventable", the payments to Medicare can be cut even further. Yeah, this is gonna save a ton of money until no one will honor Medicare.

[LeoVampire]

And if "they" decide that the hospitalization was "preventable", the payments to Medicare can be cut even further. Yeah, this is gonna save a ton of money until no one will honor Medicare.

I called my doctor's offices to see if they had anything to say about this new bill vs my status with them seeing I have Medicare.

They told me not to worry about it and that they still expected me to go to my appointments and let them deal with medicare.

So I guess I have to wait till the new info from Medicare is sent out to all of us before I have any real info about how the changes will effect me one way or the other.

I wonder how much that will cost them to send out all the new info to people like me and the doctors who take it?

[Bluerauder]

I called my doctor's offices to see if they had anything to say about this new bill vs my status with them seeing I have Medicare.

They told me not to worry about it and that they still expected me to go to my appointments and let them deal with medicare.

So I guess I have to wait till the new info from Medicare is sent out to all of us before I have any real info about how the changes will effect me one way or the other.

I wonder how much that will cost them to send out all the new info to people like me and the doctors who take it?

Most of the features of this bill will be phased in over the next 4 years. Some of the provisions don't kick in until 2014. All of the "guilty" parties will be long gone by the time most people figure out how they are gonna be impacted. By then it will be too late.

[CBT]

Most of the features of this bill will be phased in over the next 4 years. Some of the provisions don't kick in until 2014. All of the "guilty" parties will be long gone by the time most people figure out how they are gonna be impacted. By then it will be too late.

Kind of like with the wars on terrors.

[Kennyrauder]

I'm not on the right forum ... I just want to justify our Canadian Health system to my American Friends. You are afraid of change but give it a chance .Kenny is alive & not bankrupt. Major Infarct... 7 days in intensive care. in 98. 2 years later diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer ... I 'm still alive & going for bladder surgery on Apr.9 so I can be continent. NO charge to me & I did not have to sell my Marauder to get this done

[SC Cheesehead]

I'm not on the right forum ... I just want to justify our Canadian Health system to my American Friends. You are afraid of change but give it a chance .Kenny is alive & not bankrupt. Major Infarct... 7 days in intensive care. in 98. 2 years later diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer ... I 'm still alive & going for bladder surgery on Apr.9 so I can be continent. NO charge to me & I did not have to sell my Marauder to get this done

With all due respect Kenny, you ARE paying for it, via the GST on every purchase you make, which is on top of your taxed income.

I had two Canadian cousins that died while on lists awaiting treatment. Whether or not they were the victims of "rationed" healthcare is a matter of perspective, but I'm not sold on your system.

[sailsmen]

Coun -Pop GDP GDPperCap Bud BudperCap DebtoGDP
USA 307M $14.3T $46.4K $3.6T $11.73 52.9%

Can 33.5M $1.29T $38.4K $547M $16.33 72.3%

Canada's Debt to GDP is higher and the per capita gov't spending is $4,600 more per person. Me thinks healthcare is not free and does not cost less.

[sailsmen]

....You are afraid of change but give it a chance .....

Why do we want to change the greatest country in the World? Where people flock to from every country for economic opportunity and yes healtcare, including Canada's top politicians.

We are the greatest economic engine in the history of the World and we have liberated more people from tyranny than any other country in the history of the World.

Had we previously changed to be more like Europe Europeans would only be speaking German and Russian. Asians would only be speaking Japanese.

[Joe Walsh]

Folks....Nothing more needs to be said on this subject after seeing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoE1R-xH5To

....and she is the Speaker of the House!?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxE33lfTi_Y&feature=related

BTW: What's the difference between Nancy Pelosi an the Panama Canal...

One of them is a BUSY DITCH!

[Vortex]

C.Y.C.B.I...

"The end of freedom in medicine"
By 970 WFLA
Monday, March 29, 2010
TUCSON, Ariz. (970 WFLA) - The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) became the first medical society to sue to overturn the newly enacted health care bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA). AAPS sued Friday in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia (AAPS v. Sebelius et al.).


“If the PPACA goes unchallenged, then it spells the end of freedom in medicine as we know it,” observed Jane Orient, M.D., the Executive Director of AAPS. “Courts should not allow this massive intrusion into the practice of medicine and the rights of patients.”


“There will be a dire shortage of physicians if the PPACA becomes effective and is not overturned by the courts.”


The PPACA requires most Americans to buy government-approved insurance starting in 2014, or face stiff penalties. Insurance company executives will be enriched by this requirement, but the AAPS says it violates the Fifth Amendment protection against the government forcing one person to pay cash to another. AAPS is the first to assert this important constitutional claim.


The PPACA also violates the Tenth Amendment, the Commerce Clause, and the provisions authorizing taxation, the AAPS says. The Taxing and Spending power cannot be invoked, as the premiums go to private insurance companies. The traditional sovereignty of the States over the practice of medicine is destroyed by the PPACA.


AAPS notes that in scoring the proposal the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) was bound by assumptions imposed by Congress, including the ability to “save” $500 billion in Medicare, and to redirect $50 billion from Social Security. HHS Secretary Sebelius stated that PPACA would reduce the federal deficit, knowing the opposite to be true if these assumptions are unrealistic.


AAPS asks the Court to enjoin the government from promulgating or enforcing insurance mandates and require HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and Social Security Commissioner Michael Astrue to provide the Court with an accounting of Medicare and Social Security solvency.


Congress recognized that PPACA cannot be funded without the insurance mandates, and will become unenforceable without them.


Court action is necessary “to preserve individual liberty” and “to prevent PPACA from bankrupting the United States generally and Medicare and Social Security specifically,” AAPS stated.

http://970wfla.com (http://970wfla.com)

Its clear from their website they are a front for the Teabagger groups. The AMA supported the legislation.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Folks....Nothing more needs to be said on this subject after seeing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoE1R-xH5To

....and she is the Speaker of the House!?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxE33lfTi_Y&feature=related

BTW: What's the difference between Nancy Pelosi an the Panama Canal...

One of them is a BUSY DITCH!

Pelosi is a Maggot. Her approval rating is 11%. Even people who know her can't stand her. If you knew she were going to be at the family reunion you would make sure you were not there.:shake::shake:

[sailsmen]

Its clear from their website they are a front for the Teabagger groups. The AMA supported the legislation.

The AMA represents what % of Drs? 20%?

Why do you use a sexually derogatory remark? Would it be appropriate to refer to Liberals as "fags"?

[SC Cheesehead]

Its clear from their website they are a front for the Teabagger groups. The AMA supported the legislation.

Perhaps the AMA executive board supported the legislation, but I can tell you as an absolute fact that there's a portion of the individual membership did not. I hear all about every night over the dinner table.


The AMA represents what % of Drs? 20%?

Why do you use a sexually derogatory remark? Would it be appropriate to refer to Liberals as "fags"?

Not sure of the percentage, but whatever percentage is represented, their membership does not have unanimous support for Obamacare, as stated above.

[FordNut]

Its clear from their website they are a front for the Teabagger groups. The AMA supported the legislation.


Perhaps the AMA executive board supported the legislation, but I can tell you as an absolute fact that there's a portion of the individual membership did not. I hear all about every night over the dinner table.

Not sure of the percentage, but whatever percentage is represented, their membership does not have unanimous support for Obamacare, as stated above.

AARP supported it too. I wonder how many of us cancelled our AARP membership as a result of that decision. The AARP did not represent their membership, they represented their administration. Just like the elected representatives in DC did.

[Haggis]

AARP supported it too. I wonder how many of us cancelled our AARP membership as a result of that decision. The AARP did not represent their membership, they represented their administration. Just like the elected representatives in DC did.

I will not join AARP because they do not support gun ownership by civilians.

[FordNut]

I will not join AARP because they do not support gun ownership by civilians.

That's another reason I quit them. Although they don't push that agenda I still don't agree with it.

NRA all the way!

[LIGHTNIN1]

AARP supported it too. I wonder how many of us cancelled our AARP membership as a result of that decision. The AARP did not represent their membership, they represented their administration. Just like the elected representatives in DC did.

The numbers I heard was 60,000 cancelled AARP membership farly quick when they announced their support of Obamacare, I would think there would be more since, but they will still have a large membership. They are just a lefty lobbying group that sells insurance. The numbers on the AMA heard from 6 doctors were 17-20% of doctors are members.They are only a lobbying group that does not represent their membership. They are kind of like the UN that only represents dictators.

[sailsmen]

Of 149 Nations in the World only 37 are Democracies.

The UN is dominated by despots.

When people say the UN this and the UN that keep in mind the super majority are despots.

[Haggis]

Of 149 Nations in the World only 37 are Democracies.

The UN is dominated by despots.

When people say the UN this and the UN that keep in mind the super majority are despots.

Another reason we should kick the UN out.

[Dr Caleb]

Coun -Pop GDP GDPperCap Bud BudperCap DebtoGDP
USA 307M $14.3T $46.4K $3.6T $11.73 52.9%

Can 33.5M $1.29T $38.4K $547M $16.33 72.3%

Canada's Debt to GDP is higher and the per capita gov't spending is $4,600 more per person. Me thinks healthcare is not free and does not cost less.

Me thinks you balled Healthcare costs with all other Government spending, like roads and Military.

In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in Canada was US$3,678; in the U.S., US$6,714. The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf

In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private)

http://apps.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?strISO 3_select=ALL&strIndicator_select=nha&intYear_select=latest&fixed=country&language=english

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_Ame rican_health_care_systems


Of 149 Nations in the World only 37 are Democracies.

The UN is dominated by despots.

When people say the UN this and the UN that keep in mind the super majority are despots.

There are 210 countries in the world, 167 are democracies. 192 nations are members of the UN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
http://www.worldaudit.org/statpage.htm

But I agree. When Libya became the head of the UN council on Human Rights, I concluded it's time to flush the UN.

[sailsmen]

The Budget per Capita figure means all spending. This figure was posted because I kept reading that healthcare was "free" in Canada.

The per capita GDP for Canada is lower and the per capita taxes are higher so something obviously is not "free".

What happens when the "Budget" is met and I need heart surgery, do I have to wait for the next fiscal year? How does your gov't know how many people will get sick and how much it will costs to cure them? Based on the size of the population the variances in the actuarial numbers can be significant.


Of 149 Nations with a population over 1m 37 are FREE DEMOCRACIES. (There are Nations with populations of 12K, 84K, etc.)

Lots of Nations hold elections and are not a "democracy".

[CBT]

The AMA represents what % of Drs? 20%?

Why do you use a sexually derogatory remark? Would it be appropriate to refer to Liberals as "fags"?

Sounds good to me.

[LeoVampire]

First used by early American Colonials to describe a dry bundle of wood for making a fire usualy related to burning witches at the stake.

Then used as a slang term by the Brit's for a cigarett or to get a short off of someone as they smoke it.

Then used by Americans again as a derogatory meaning for Homosexuals.

Might as well start using the "N" word then see the reactions you get on here from people.

Another words be nice guys.

[sailsmen]

I don't call people "Teabaggers" and I don't call people "fags".

When I read or hear it I let it be known I don't like it.

[Paul T. Casey]

Clinton had it all fixed, national debt wise,.

Still reading the whole thread, but this is the the biggest lie I've found so far. Nothing against Leo, he was force fed this pablum by the media. If you do your research, Clinton solved the deficet by cooking the books. Pretty easy to show a good bottom line when you don't add things like Social Security and Medicare to the total.

[Paul T. Casey]

Just a few thoughts.

I don't want to deny anyone medical treatment when necessary, not Illegal Aliens, Crackheads, Old people, Babies, no-one. The problem with the current (now that we have a mandated insurance law) is profitability and competition.

On profitability, the new law only assures the insurance providers with a guaranteed market. You think anything will get cheaper when it's mandated? If you were required to buy say only Wonder Bread do you think the price would fall, or rise due to a captive market. The insurers need a profit margin to pay their salaries and investors. I don't have a problem with anyone making money, improving their lifestyle, etc. There's also nothing in the new law about tort reform. Face it, we're all going to die someday. Doctors are only human, albeit well educated. Despite their education, they can and do make honest mistakes. These mistakes however strike us where it hurts most, our loved ones. We get some lawyer from TV and go sue over these mistakes, for billions of dollars every year. Hospitals and doctors must bear this cost, and pass it down to us. Just think of how your job would be if you got sued everytime you made a minor error.

Competition.

I live in a state where I cannot buy the insurance I really want. I work on the road, so it would be easy to set up a phoney address and get it, but I choose not to. Protability would solve this problem. Portability would also promte competition, again something that drives the cost down.

I mostly worry on the affects on some of our "marginally profitable" industries. How long can a company struggling like say Caterpiller Tractor continue to bear this burden?

[Phrog_gunner]

There are 210 countries in the world, 167 are democracies. 192 nations are members of the UN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
http://www.worldaudit.org/statpage.htm



According to those links, included in the 167 countries are "democracies" like N Korea, Venezuela, China, Iran and Cuba. That's not even touching the countries listed in Africa. I'm no democradermist, but I think those numbers might be flawed.

[CBT]

I mostly worry on the affects on some of our "marginally profitable" industries. How long can a company struggling like say Caterpiller Tractor continue to bear this burden?

Interesting point. When the last Batman movie came out, they blew up the old Brachs candy factory in Chicago (it was the hospital in the movie). They didn't go out of business as I first thought, they moved out of the country, due to the cost of sugar being doubled when imported (go NAFTA!). So many factors drive companies to try and stay competitive it isn't even funny. Health care should be no different, open it up to competition, even if it is from a source outside the U.S., I say.

[dakslim]

The AMA represents what % of Drs? 20%?

Why do you use a sexually derogatory remark? Would it be appropriate to refer to Liberals as "fags"?

Friends against government stupidity?:confused:

[FordNut]

O'bummer is still trying to convince the public it's a good thing. How about this:

Hilarity Ensues
Real costs of health care reform ignored by media.

By Dan Kennedy
Business & Media Institute
3/31/2010 3:05:58 PM

The Comedian-In-Chief insists that his scheme is about making health care more affordable for all. If you rupture your spleen laughing, you may wait three months for care and then settle for a nurse-practitioner. But let’s talk about all those cost reductions….

1): 16,000 new IRS agents and a $10-billion expansion of the IRS for health insurance ownership reporting and enforcement.
2): Bribe to big Pharma: extended patent protection, thus reducing and delaying lower cost generic drugs.
3): New, hidden taxes on everything that can be classified as a ‘medical device,’ making purchase of such devices by hospitals and doctors more expensive, creating higher costs to be passed through to somebody.
4): Insurers compelled to accept everyone with pre-existing conditions. Place no lifetime caps on consumption, and even let “kids” up to age 26(!) ride on parents’ policies. How can this do anything but send everybody’s premiums soaring? (What would happen to car insurance rates if everybody could let their kids stay on their policies until age 26, and companies couldn’t refuse, cap or cancel coverage for drivers having accident after accident after accident? I doubt rates could go down.)
5): Umpteen unfunded mandates on state governments already teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, soon faced with further declines in tax revenues from businesses re-locating, shrinking or closing and unemployment skyrocketing. Which means – as futile and destructive as it may be – imposition of new and higher taxes on any and all who remain. So you will make a lot less and be taxed a lot more. EVERYBODY will.
6): An explosion of lawsuits against doctors, hospitals, medical equipment manufacturers and drug companies, as 20-million new potential litigants flood an over-burdened, under-doctored, under-staffed system, vulnerable thanks to zero tort reform in this bill. That’s Obama’s gift of billions to trial lawyers. Malpractice insurance premiums will also skyrocket, forcing many doctors out of practice, discouraging new from entering, worsening the shortages. Up, up, up go health care costs.

All this “more affordable” Obamacare will make every individual, family, business and nation as whole poorer – especially when you consider it is piled on top of all that “affordable” health care the government already admits to grossly mis-managing and operating rife with waste and fraud. And all that “affordable” housing created via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, ticking money bombs certain to require trillions when they explode. Can you feel the weight on your chest? If not, you will.

Sadly, most of the media let the Messiah and his minions blithely get away with yammering on about making health care more affordable, never demanding confrontation of the scheme’s certainty of making living unaffordable. Derisive laughter is the only appropriate response to this nonsense.

Giving it the dignity of serious discussion is like viewing Seinfeld’s Marriage Ref television show for real relationship advice. It is sick comedy at our expense, and those responsible are laughing at us behind our backs. One can only imagine their derisive mocking of a news media buffaloed, bamboozled and turned sycophant; at voters who placed a conservative Republican in Ted Kennedy’s Senate seat for specified purpose of stopping this madness. The voters thought they might actually count for something and organized an entire Tea Party movement to demand brakes applied to Toyota-acceleration-like spending and expansion of government. Those voters actually hoped their demands of their employees in Washington might be acknowledged. “Nuts to the nuts!” the congressional royalty chuckle, as they do as they please, and as their King commands.

Not only are you the target of a giant tax and power grab scheme, but you are laughed at and ridiculed, believed ignorant and impotent. How does that feel? That’s your first government health freebie. Your proctology exam.

[CBT]

O'bummer is still trying to convince the public it's a good thing. How about this:

Hilarity Ensues
Real costs of health care reform ignored by media.

By Dan Kennedy
Business & Media Institute
3/31/2010 3:05:58 PM

The Comedian-In-Chief insists that his scheme is about making health care more affordable for all. If you rupture your spleen laughing, you may wait three months for care and then settle for a nurse-practitioner. But let’s talk about all those cost reductions….

1): 16,000 new IRS agents and a $10-billion expansion of the IRS for health insurance ownership reporting and enforcement.
2): Bribe to big Pharma: extended patent protection, thus reducing and delaying lower cost generic drugs.

WTF?! They already have a 15 year strangle hold on them now!!!

[Haggis]

O'bummer is still trying to convince the public it's a good thing. How about this:....


Not only are you the target of a giant tax and power grab scheme, but you are laughed at and ridiculed, believed ignorant and impotent. How does that feel? That’s your first government health freebie. Your proctology exam.

At least we will all be equal.

[Phrog_gunner]

I'm actually looking forward to going to the drs office and seeing it full of ppl that waited 3 months to get their "free" appointment and I walk up and say "Hi, I'm Phrog, I don't have an appointment, but I'm not on the gov't system and I'm paying full price in cash".

[FordNut]

At least we will all be equal.

Nope, congress excluded themselves. They liken themselves to America's "royalty", an elite class above the commoners.

[SC Cheesehead]

Nope, congress excluded themselves. They liken themselves to America's "royalty", an elite class above the commoners.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely...

[LIGHTNIN1]

The CEO of Zoll Medical has been on TV several times since Obamacare passed. Some of you may have seen him. They are a medical device maker, such as knee replacements.He says the new taxes on his company will cost them 7.5 million amd their profit last year was 9 million. It will make a for profit company into a non profit. He says it will not be worth the effort to stay open at that rate. He has options such as close down, lay off employees, move the company to another country. He has competition and does not think he can pass that much increase in expenses on to the consumer. Oh well so much for CHANGE.

[Haggis]

Nope, congress excluded themselves. They liken themselves to America's "royalty", an elite class above the commoners.

I should have clarified myself; us commoners will be equal.

[FordNut]

Here's another little detail...

The CBO accounting rules for evaluating the student loan program did not allow them to take into account the risk costs nor administrative costs. The CBO estimate when "real" costs are taken into account indicate that instead of saving the government $68 billion it will add $52 billion to the deficit. I wonder how many more accounting tricks were used to come up with the $1 trillion figure for healthcare reform?

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=63560

[CBT]

Here's another little detail...

The CBO accounting rules for evaluating the student loan program did not allow them to take into account the risk costs nor administrative costs. The CBO estimate when "real" costs are taken into account indicate that instead of saving the government $68 billion it will add $52 billion to the deficit. I wonder how many more accounting tricks were used to come up with the $1 trillion figure for healthcare reform?

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=63560

Ooh, ooh! I know! Over 9000!
Buy my rear diff cooling kit, help the economy :D

[Dr Caleb]

The per capita GDP for Canada is lower and the per capita taxes are higher so something obviously is not "free".

What happens when the "Budget" is met and I need heart surgery, do I have to wait for the next fiscal year?


No Canadian calls our system 'Free'. That word originates from your side of the border. We are well aware what it costs, but we still pay less for better coverage than you guys do. We are a socialist country, which means our taxes pay for everything - so they are higher. But we also get no 'user fees'.

And you ask that same question every time we have a discussion on this subject. I'm thinking you ask it now to try to use it to create fear and uncertainty where none exists. A bad debate tactic, but one I see often. Like the ritual question 'when did you stop beating your wife'.

If you need heart surgery, you will get it in Canada regardless of budget. It's the law. Deficits in Healthcare budgets happen all the time because more people got sick than expected. But, that's also the advantage. Healthcare shouldn't be profit motivated

[sailsmen]

Hence the wait list, but there is no rationing just like it is "free"?

Dr. Caleb - "...And I do not pay one cent for it..", "Wait lists are not rationing. Wait lists ocurr for many reasons, including that there may only be a limited number of surgeons to perform the operation." But rationing is not one of the "many reasons"?

You say there are no wait times and I post several Canadian sources that there are. "Last Updated: Monday, October 15, 2007 | 4:09 PM ET
CBC News
The average wait time for a Canadian awaiting surgery or other medical treatment is now 18.3 weeks, a new high, according to a report released Monday."
"From the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 12/05;
From Specialist to surgery 50% for hip replacement - waited 4.5 months
From Specialist to surgery 50% for knee replacement - waited 7 months."

You say you have better coverage and you have no idea what coverage I have. I know this I have better coverage than this Canadian;

" ST. JOHN 'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States .
Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for."

You say it's better and yet the Cancer survival rate for Canada is lower than the USA, per Canadian sources, despite the USA having a group that makes up 13% of our population with men whose life expectancy is 9% less and women 4% less.

You say Healthcare should not be profit motivated, well than look at the quality of life in countries where there is no "profit", N. Korea for starters. Hey lets expand it to all of man kind no profit motive ever from the begining of time. We would most likely have no medical care so it truly would be "free".

You keep implying that Gov't is more efficient, has no profit motive so it costs less. In the USA a Federal employee cost over $40K more than the private sector. All the profits of all the health insurers will pay for 3 days of healthcare in the USA. Lets elminate all the profit of all healthcare providers and the entire medical industry just in the USA, what would medical care look like? There are more Clincal Trials in Houston than several European Countries.

[Rocknthehawk]

No Canadian calls our system 'Free'. That word originates from your side of the border. We are well aware what it costs, but we still pay less for better coverage than you guys do. We are a socialist country, which means our taxes pay for everything - so they are higher. But we also get no 'user fees'.

And you ask that same question every time we have a discussion on this subject. I'm thinking you ask it now to try to use it to create fear and uncertainty where none exists. A bad debate tactic, but one I see often. Like the ritual question 'when did you stop beating your wife'.

If you need heart surgery, you will get it in Canada regardless of budget. It's the law. Deficits in Healthcare budgets happen all the time because more people got sick than expected. But, that's also the advantage. Healthcare shouldn't be profit motivated

Dr. Caleb, I usually look forward to your posts, but that last line gave me a good laugh!

[Phrog_gunner]

What's so funny about that, Nate? DMV workers are not motivated by profit and look at the great service they provide.

[Joe Walsh]

Deficits in Healthcare budgets happen all the time because *the Federal government is now running the system.

Healthcare shouldn't be profit motivated

Nor should it be the biggest government boondoggle this side of Social Security!

*there....fixed it for ya!:2thumbs:

[SC Cheesehead]

If you need heart surgery, you will get it in Canada regardless of budget. It's the law. Deficits in Healthcare budgets happen all the time because more people got sick than expected. But, that's also the advantage. Healthcare shouldn't be profit motivated


Dr. Caleb, I usually look forward to your posts, but that last line gave me a good laugh!


Yeah, why on earth would a physician who had at least 4 years of college followed by med school possibly want to make any money caring for sick people? If he was a GOOD Socialist, he'd do it because it was the right thing to do, and damn the money. Same holds true for nurses, and lab techs, X-Ray techs...:rolleyes:

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. - Karl Marx

135 later, and it's still a crock of s**t.

[Phrog_gunner]

Excessive wait times for magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies are a major problem in the Canadian healthcare system. To determine how requests for MRI studies are managed, the authors performed a survey of public MRI facilities in Canada. Ninety-six per cent had some method to triage MRI requests. However, only 42% had documented guidelines for prioritization, and none employed quality assurance methods to ensure that guidelines were followed. Target timelines for each prioritization category varied widely. Sixteen per cent of centres were not able to meet their target timelines for any prioritization category, and 45% of centres met target times only for some prioritization categories. Strategies for dealing with wait lists primarily involved attempts to increase capacity. No centres attempted to reduce wait times by decreasing inappropriate requests. There appears to be a need to standardize MRI wait list management given the variation in management practices and wait times observed.

Excessive wait times for some healthcare interventions have caught the attention of governments, providers and the public (Sanmartin et al. 2000). Of particular interest to these groups are cardiac surgery, joint replacement surgery, cancer care and advanced diagnostic imaging, specifically magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Wait times for diagnostic imaging are particularly important because they may result in delays in definitive treatment. Efforts to reduce wait times for MRI have focused on increasing the number of diagnostic imaging devices, as Canada lags far behind other countries in this regard. For instance, Japan and the United States have 35.3 and 19.5 MRI units per million population, respectively, whereas Canada has only 4.6. (Stein 2005). The number of MRI scanners in Canada is lower than the median of 6.1 scanners per million for all countries within the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (Stein 2005).

http://www.longwoods.com/product.php?productid=20537


No evidence of rationing here. Move along, folks, move along.

[SC Cheesehead]

Excessive wait times for magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies are a major problem in the Canadian healthcare system. To determine how requests for MRI studies are managed, the authors performed a survey of public MRI facilities in Canada. Ninety-six per cent had some method to triage MRI requests. However, only 42% had documented guidelines for prioritization, and none employed quality assurance methods to ensure that guidelines were followed. Target timelines for each prioritization category varied widely. Sixteen per cent of centres were not able to meet their target timelines for any prioritization category, and 45% of centres met target times only for some prioritization categories. Strategies for dealing with wait lists primarily involved attempts to increase capacity. No centres attempted to reduce wait times by decreasing inappropriate requests. There appears to be a need to standardize MRI wait list management given the variation in management practices and wait times observed.

Excessive wait times for some healthcare interventions have caught the attention of governments, providers and the public (Sanmartin et al. 2000). Of particular interest to these groups are cardiac surgery, joint replacement surgery, cancer care and advanced diagnostic imaging, specifically magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Wait times for diagnostic imaging are particularly important because they may result in delays in definitive treatment. Efforts to reduce wait times for MRI have focused on increasing the number of diagnostic imaging devices, as Canada lags far behind other countries in this regard. For instance, Japan and the United States have 35.3 and 19.5 MRI units per million population, respectively, whereas Canada has only 4.6. (Stein 2005). The number of MRI scanners in Canada is lower than the median of 6.1 scanners per million for all countries within the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (Stein 2005).

http://www.longwoods.com/product.php?productid=20537


No evidence of rationing here. Move along, folks, move along.

I have two dead cousins to attest to that, but, I know, bringing that up is nothing more than fear-mongering on my part...

[LIGHTNIN1]

If you need heart surgery, you will get it in Canada regardless of budget. It's the law. Deficits in Healthcare budgets happen all the time because more people got sick than expected. But, that's also the advantage. Healthcare shouldn't be profit motivated




Yeah, why on earth would a physician who had at least 4 years of college followed by med school possibly want to make any money caring for sick people? If he was a GOOD Socialist, he'd do it because it was the right thing to do, and damn the money. Same holds true for nurses, and lab techs, X-Ray techs...:rolleyes:

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. - Karl Marx

135 later, and it's still a crock of s**t.

I have nothing against anyone living in Canada but I love being American and I don't want to be Canadian or live there, so I see it being quite a waste of time trying to convince me how much better it is up there because they have a Socialist healthcare system. The people here have spoken. The majority like what they were getting and don't want it screwed up by our Almighty bunch of clowns in Washington.Canada I am sure has the highest caliber of individuals running their government that would never think about doing any wrong. We are not so fortunate here. We know what we are dealing with and don't want to be taken to the cleaners. Our health system could have been fixed with little money compared to what will be spent. Instead Congress will spend a lot of this money on other things.Canada can keep their healthcare system and I want to keep the one I had.

[CBT]

We are a socialist country, which means our taxes pay for everything - so they are higher.

I could do without this here. You guys have better weed, though. So I heard tell...

[LeoVampire]

Look a lot of you guys seem to think our Country is great and has done pretty good in the long run vs others right?

So why not give them a chance to prove your faith and Love for this country is still justified?

No country is perfect and no system is perfect it takes time for anything to work and to be prov-en it is for the better or worse.

I am sure if this starts to turn into a real disaster it will be repealed.

We always fight change. We fought against unleaded fuel, emission control systems on our cars, state inspections of our cars, mandatory insurance for them, hated the 55 MPH speed limit and so forth just for starters that you all can relate to.

We dealt with WWI and wanted to be in WWII after Perl Harbor, we fought against the Korean war, Vietnam, and now question if we should still be in the Middle East.

We fought against stopping taxation without representation, slavery, segregation and giving equal rights to women and allowing them to vote.

We hate change and do not embrace it easily because we are a young country and the people have a right to voice their opinion.

But 9 times out of 10 we fall in line and learn to adjust to the changes when we see it is actualy working out.

Right?

[CBT]

Who IS this, Toby Keith?



Look a lot of you guys seem to think our Country is great and has done pretty good in the long run vs others right?

So why not give them a chance to prove your faith and Love for this country is still justified?

No country is perfect and no system is perfect it takes time for anything to work and to be prov-en it is for the better or worse.

I am sure if this starts to turn into a real disaster it will be repealed.

We always fight change. We fought against unleaded fuel, emission control systems on our cars, state inspections of our cars, mandatory insurance for them, hated the 55 MPH speed limit and so forth just for starters that you all can relate to.

We dealt with WWI and wanted to be in WWII after Perl Harbor, we fought against the Korean war, Vietnam, and now question if we should still be in the Middle East.

We fought against stopping taxation without representation, slavery, segregation and giving equal rights to women and allowing them to vote.

We hate change and do not embrace it easily because we are a young country and the people have a right to voice their opinion.

But 9 times out of 10 we fall in line and learn to adjust to the changes when we see it is actualy working out.

Right?

[LeoVampire]

Who IS this, Toby Keith?

I don't know who he is explain please.

[CBT]

I don't know who he is explain please.
Patriotic Country and Western singer. He's like the Chuck Norris of country.

[LeoVampire]

Patriotic Country and Western singer. He's like the Chuck Norris of country.

Thanks for the answer.

And the relation to what I wrote is that I am a patriot if so thanks for the compliment because I am that is why I served in the Army in the first place and rejoined for the Gulf War when I was asked to?!

[FordNut]

... we fall in line ...

That's what congress is counting on.

[LeoVampire]

That's what congress is counting on.

Kind of like the King's and comanders and other rulers through out history.

Use what you need to keep the war and heat of battle going and yet stay far enough off to the side so only your troops are at risk and not yourself.

Not saying it is a bad stragedy or the wrong thing to do just seeing the simularity's.

[Phrog_gunner]

Wait and see how social security worked out? BANKRUPT

Wait and see how medicare works out? BANKRUPT

Wait and see how the USPS works out? Can't even break even.

Wait and see how a nationalized train system (Amtrak) works out? BANKRUPT

Wait and see how California's system of taxing the rich to pay for enormous entitlements works out? BANKRUPT

Wait and see how socialism works out in the USSR? BANKRUPT

Wait and see how socialism works out in Cuba? BANKRUPT

Wait and see how socialism works out in N Korea? BANKRUPT

I'm no mathologist, but there might be a pattern here that doesn't require waiting to see what happens.

[FordNut]

I can't help but think about this message my wife sent me:

OBITUARY
Born 1776, Possibly Died 2008

It does not hurt to read this several times.

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning last November's Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

[LeoVampire]

Wait and see how social security worked out? BANKRUPT The government took money out of it to use for other things like a more advanced and stronger Military so we can impose our way of life on others without fear! To help other country's that do not give a rat's ass about us and would love to see us fail. How many people do you know that send their hard earned money to help children in other country's and yet would not hand a homeless man a dime to help him out or would cross the street to avoid him?

Wait and see how medicare works out? BANKRUPT To many people wanting to line the pockets with money and cut jobs to make sure they can keep the lifestyle they want to enjoy.

Wait and see how the USPS works out? Can't even break even. Because it is easier to e-mail and use web site's than pay for stamps!

Wait and see how a nationalized train system (Amtrak) works out? BANKRUPT Because we are still not willing to use them instead of our cars to conserve what fuel we have left.

Wait and see how California's system of taxing the rich to pay for enormous entitlements works out? BANKRUPT Too many people going there with dreams of getting into American show business instead of working for a living like most had to do to get this country where it is now.

Wait and see how socialism works out in the USSR? BANKRUPT Too much money spent on the military instead of infastructure.

Wait and see how socialism works out in Cuba? BANKRUPT Not wanting to be sociable with anyone who is differnt from themselves.

Wait and see how socialism works out in N Korea? BANKRUPT Too broke to feed and take care of their people but still keep making weapons because they are affraid everyone is going to try and change them and they want more land to control and spread out.

I'm no mathologist, but there might be a pattern here that doesn't require waiting to see what happens.

Anyone can find fault with anything if they look hard enough and can say what ever they want to make it seem like they are right and everyone else is wrong.

[Phrog_gunner]

Anyone can find fault with anything if they look hard enough and can say what ever they want to make it seem like they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Excuses don't put the wasted money back into the pockets of the people it was taken from. If only the list of instances where socialism has worked were near as long as the list of excuses as to why it didn't work.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Anyone can find fault with anything if they look hard enough and can say what ever they want to make it seem like they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Guess by that reasoning there is no use to ever discuss anything, just go along with what the elitists in power say and be GOOD SHEEPLE. Some things I don't need to wait on to see if it is going to turn out good. If someone breaks into my house threatening to kill me or family I don't need to wait before seeing if the situation is going to turn out good before protecting myself.

[LeoVampire]

Guess by that reasoning there is no use to ever discuss anything, just go along with what the elitists in power say and be GOOD SHEEPLE. Some things I don't need to wait on to see if it is going to turn out good. If someone breaks into my house threatening to kill me or family I don't need to wait before seeing if the situation is going to turn out good before protecting myself.

No one is trying to kill me right now though that I know of and I don't see a smoking gun just yet!

But I am not going to say yay or ney 100% until I see how it plays out.

I am still happy the government is finding a way to keep our gasoline prices lower than a lot of other country's right now so I can take a drive once in a while.

That alone make's me want to at least give them a chance to make this work if possable.

If it dosn't and I need to vote for someone who is willing to work on killing the deal when the time comes so be it.

Unfortunatly we can never get everyone we vote for to do what we all want nor keep all of the promises they make.

[FordNut]

I am still happy the government is finding a way to keep our gasoline prices lower than a lot of other country's right now so I can take a drive once in a while.

Have you noticed the price of gas goes up every week here lately? And the government is about to make it go up even more with their planned legislation. The government is making gas more expensive, not less. The other countries which have extremely high gas prices are the ones with high taxation and socialistic policies. The policies you seem to be in favor of.

[Phrog_gunner]

That alone make's me want to at least give them a chance to make this work if possable.

And you have every right to make that decision and use your money for the experiment. The Federal Government according to the Constitution does not have the power to force the rest of us to pay for it.

[Paul T. Casey]

I am still happy the government is finding a way to keep our gasoline prices lower than a lot of other country's right now so I can take a drive once in a while.


But I thought you were against the war? Or

Is it the Gov't keeping prices low (by adding a tax) or is it ExxonMobil etc keeping prices low by only taking 2 cents on a dollar profits? (It may be as much as 3 cents per dollar). The reason for their huge profits is volume. Returns on refined petroleum (gas and fuel oils) is remarkably low.

[SC Cheesehead]

Look a lot of you guys seem to think our Country is great and has done pretty good in the long run vs others right?

So why not give them a chance to prove your faith and Love for this country is still justified?

No country is perfect and no system is perfect it takes time for anything to work and to be prov-en it is for the better or worse.

I am sure if this starts to turn into a real disaster it will be repealed.

We always fight change. We fought against unleaded fuel, emission control systems on our cars, state inspections of our cars, mandatory insurance for them, hated the 55 MPH speed limit and so forth just for starters that you all can relate to.

We dealt with WWI and wanted to be in WWII after Perl Harbor, we fought against the Korean war, Vietnam, and now question if we should still be in the Middle East.

We fought against stopping taxation without representation, slavery, segregation and giving equal rights to women and allowing them to vote.

We hate change and do not embrace it easily because we are a young country and the people have a right to voice their opinion.

But 9 times out of 10 we fall in line and learn to adjust to the changes when we see it is actualy working out.

Right?

Leo, this isn't about faith and love for our country, it's about the government running our country. And the issue at hand has very little to do with providing quality health care for this nation, and a whole bunch about grabbing and maintaining power.

Does that sound skeptical? Well, as a wise man once said, "The nine most frightening words you'll ever hear are: 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'."

Yeah, and I've got a five times better chance of winning the next Powerball lottery then ever seeing a major piece of social legislation repealed.

Interesting examples you listed. Yeah we protested all those, all those laws went into place, and how many of them have ever been repealed? Other than a partial rollback of the 55 mph speed limit, I can't think of any others.

As to the point about falling in line and learning to adjust, see my first comment again. It's all about power, my friend.

Atlas Shrugged. If you've never read it, now would be a good time to check it out.

[LeoVampire]

Have you noticed the price of gas goes up every week here lately? And the government is about to make it go up even more with their planned legislation. The government is making gas more expensive, not less. The other countries which have extremely high gas prices are the ones with high taxation and socialistic policies. The policies you seem to be in favor of.

Go to Europe and see the prices. When I went to Germany I almost ***** and that was in the 80's.

We have been paying less than others for a lot of years!!! It is just starting to slowly reach reality levels because of the demand and use in China for Diesel fuel.

Go over seas and see what they pay in Europe and ask them what they have paid all the way back through the 80's till now. I would be surprised if your jaw did not drop from shock!

We have been pretty lucky!

[Bluerauder]

Go to Europe and see the prices. When I went to Germany I almost ***** and that was in the 80's.

We have been paying less than others for a lot of years!!! It is just starting to slowly reach reality levels because of the demand and use in China for Diesel fuel.

Go over seas and see what they pay in Europe and ask them what they have paid all the way back through the 80's till now. I would be surprised if your jaw did not drop from shock!

We have been pretty lucky!
And most of the price of gas in Europe at the pump is due to the taxes on it to support government programs. Their cost is about the same as ours. It's the tax and riders that make it so expensive. The same applies to cigarettes and alcohol sales too..... very high taxes. Looks like we are headed in that direction.

[LeoVampire]

But I thought you were against the war? Or

Is it the Gov't keeping prices low (by adding a tax) or is it ExxonMobil etc keeping prices low by only taking 2 cents on a dollar profits? (It may be as much as 3 cents per dollar). The reason for their huge profits is volume. Returns on refined petroleum (gas and fuel oils) is remarkably low.

***** in CT they tryed to start doing an extra tax on Soda's or anything else that contains a lot of sugar.

They keep adding tax to the cigarett's in CT.

It's funny I was born and raised in Mass and CT always use to call us Tax a Chusetts because of our income tax and all. But CT was the state that ended up in trouble and finaly had to add it and regreted not doing it sooner. Man did that shut people up here about Mass and hate to admit they ever said a thing in the first place and now has a higher sales tax than Mass as well.

And our Government came down hard on the big oil company's for their profit margin and told them to ease off on the price of Gas and Diesel when the country started to freek out about it.

[LeoVampire]

But I thought you were against the war? Or

Is it the Gov't keeping prices low (by adding a tax) or is it ExxonMobil etc keeping prices low by only taking 2 cents on a dollar profits? (It may be as much as 3 cents per dollar). The reason for their huge profits is volume. Returns on refined petroleum (gas and fuel oils) is remarkably low.

I am unhappy that the war has gone on longer than it should have and that it has cost us so much money to keep going when we have not even taken care of our original goals in going over there.

We are over there now to keep an eye on Iran and give them pause and losing guys to a battle we will never win like VietNam.

Again we are helping others more than we are helping ourselves and trying to kiss too many asses and we are getting into a lot of others business like always and why a lot of country's are pissed off at us.
We went over there to make a point about how we will not tolerate someone attacking us and wanted to take out the jerks that had a hand in it all! Well we made our point and got some of the jerks right?

If we had come back home a few years ago the country would not be in as deep as it is now debt.

In the past war would help turn our economy around but that just dosn't happen any more because no one owe's us anything because no one is defeated or has to pay for their mistake's like Germany and Japan did!

This war did not create jobs like other wars have, it did not help businesses to thrive because we are still outsourcing to other country's that induce slave labor basicly instead of boosting our own economy. And then we ***** about how others are treated when we are half the cause in the first damm place and then send money to them to help out. So we pay them to make slave labor and then pay them again to try and stop it makes a whole lot of sence to me. Ya right!!!!

Don't see anyone in this country trying to stop that cycle and how it is hurting us and our jobs?

[CBT]

True, we should have been dropping air-conditioners over there instead of bombs. It's so friggin hot and smelly over there, no wonder everyone just wants to shoot/blow each other up.


I am unhappy that the war has gone on longer than it should have and that it has cost us so much money to keep going when we have not even taken care of our original goals in going over there.

We are over there now to keep an eye on Iran and give them pause and losing guys to a battle we will never win like VietNam.

Again we are helping others more than we are helping ourselves and trying to kiss too many asses and we are getting into a lot of others business like always.

[FordNut]

Go to Europe and see the prices. When I went to Germany I almost ***** and that was in the 80's.

We have been paying less than others for a lot of years!!! It is just starting to slowly reach reality levels because of the demand and use in China for Diesel fuel.

Go over seas and see what they pay in Europe and ask them what they have paid all the way back through the 80's till now. I would be surprised if your jaw did not drop from shock!

We have been pretty lucky!

You seem to think you're the only person who has been around the block. I was there in the '70's and I've been to England, Sweden, Japan, Canada, and many other countries. I know how much they pay and it's because of taxes to pay for their socialist policies.


And most of the price of gas in Europe at the pump is due to the taxes on it to support government programs. Their cost is about the same as ours. It's the tax and riders that make it so expensive. The same applies to cigarettes and alcohol sales too..... very high taxes. Looks like we are headed in that direction.

Exactly.

[FordNut]

***** in CT they tryed to start doing an extra tax on Soda's or anything else that contains a lot of sugar.

They keep adding tax to the cigarett's in CT.

It's funny I was born and raised in Mass and CT always use to call us Tax a Chusetts because of our income tax and all. But CT was the state that ended up in trouble and finaly had to add it and regreted not doing it sooner. Man did that shut people up here about Mass and hate to admit they ever said a thing in the first place and now has a higher sales tax than Mass as well.

And our Government came down hard on the big oil company's for their profit margin and told them to ease off on the price of Gas and Diesel when the country started to freek out about it.

Cigarettes contibute to a major portion of healthcare costs. They ought to be taxed heavily. The so-called poor people who can afford to smoke two or three packs a day but can't pay their medical bills are part of the healthcare problem now. Cigarette taxes ought to be $20 per pack.

The profits for gas companies are not that high. It's idiots that do not understand economics and just listen to the liberal media's one-sided reporting that make it a hot button topic. Profits are measured in profit MARGIN not in absolute dollars. Oil companies profit margins are not very high. Many investors won't put their money in stocks of a company with profit margins less than 10%. Oil company profit margins are less than that.

With the government involved in healthcare, they'll probably put a tax on fat people because they are less healthy. They're already trying to do it indirectly with taxes on sugary soft drinks and fast food restaurants.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Go to Europe and see the prices. When I went to Germany I almost ***** and that was in the 80's.

We have been paying less than others for a lot of years!!! It is just starting to slowly reach reality levels because of the demand and use in China for Diesel fuel.

Go over seas and see what they pay in Europe and ask them what they have paid all the way back through the 80's till now. I would be surprised if your jaw did not drop from shock!

We have been pretty lucky!

Leo,
One of the points that have been tried to be made here is We don't care what those people in other countries are doing as far as high taxes and heavy regulation go. That was why this country was started if anyone remembers. The rest of the world have already screwed their countries up. We don't want to become like them. We don't want the same that has happened there to happen here. We are supposed to be different. It is in our BLOOD. We have plenty of oil, we just need to be allowed to drill for it. Nuclear energy plants need to be built . Even France gets 80% of their electricity from nuclear. Our people in Congress want us to go back 150 years. They need to move to Germany and France.

[FordNut]

I am unhappy that the war has gone on longer than it should have and that it has cost us so much money to keep going when we have not even taken care of our original goals in going over there.

We are over there now to keep an eye on Iran and give them pause and losing guys to a battle we will never win like VietNam.

Again we are helping others more than we are helping ourselves and trying to kiss too many asses and we are getting into a lot of others business like always and why a lot of country's are pissed off at us.
We went over there to make a point about how we will not tolerate someone attacking us and wanted to take out the jerks that had a hand in it all! Well we made our point and got some of the jerks right?

If we had come back home a few years ago the country would not be in as deep as it is now debt.

In the past war would help turn our economy around but that just dosn't happen any more because no one owe's us anything because no one is defeated or has to pay for their mistake's like Germany and Japan did!

This war did not create jobs like other wars have, it did not help businesses to thrive because we are still outsourcing to other country's that induce slave labor basicly instead of boosting our own economy. And then we ***** about how others are treated when we are half the cause in the first damm place and then send money to them to help out. So we pay them to make slave labor and then pay them again to try and stop it makes a whole lot of sence to me. Ya right!!!!

Don't see anyone in this country trying to stop that cycle and how it is hurting us and our jobs?

So we need to bring all the troops home to no jobs? They're making a lot better living now than they would be on unemployment.

[FordNut]

You seem to think you're the only person who has been around the block. I was there in the '70's and I've been to England, Sweden, Japan, Canada, and many other countries. I know how much they pay and it's because of taxes to pay for their socialist policies.


I've also been to Argentina and seen first hand what socialist policies can do to a country. It's really sad, lots of my associates took me sightseeing to some of the resorts, wineries, and hot springs that their parents went to and took them to when they were children. Most of them are in decay, boarded up and empty. The people who operated these places were taxed to the point they had no money left to maintain them so when they fell into disrepair they were simply boarded up to let the weeds, vines, and wildlife take them back over. They showed me pictures taken when they were children and it was remarkable that things could go down that far that quickly. Argentina had a higher standard of living than most of Europe less than 100 years ago, now they're close to the bottom of the list.

[LeoVampire]

Cigarettes contibute to a major portion of healthcare costs. They ought to be taxed heavily. The so-called poor people who can afford to smoke two or three packs a day but can't pay their medical bills are part of the healthcare problem now. Cigarette taxes ought to be $20 per pack.

The profits for gas companies are not that high. It's idiots that do not understand economics and just listen to the liberal media's one-sided reporting that make it a hot button topic. Profits are measured in profit MARGIN not in absolute dollars. Oil companies profit margins are not very high. Many investors won't put their money in stocks of a company with profit margins less than 10%. Oil company profit margins are less than that.

With the government involved in healthcare, they'll probably put a tax on fat people because they are less healthy. They're already trying to do it indirectly with taxes on sugary soft drinks and fast food restaurants.

If they can grease the wheels with people in the GOV to keep them from implimenting too many reg's on what car's should get for gas milage then they are making too much money and making sure their profit's stay up there.

Instead of taxing cigg's why not just shut the company's down and or make them illegal like drugs?

As to fat people tax your talking in maybe's and why not's.

I would think drug's would be a better way to go tax wise seeing half the country uses them anyways so legalize them and tax them and make it so they have to buy it in a way where we know who is using and how much.

A new business for us like other country's do to finance their wars and to make new weapons.

[LeoVampire]

So we need to bring all the troops home to no jobs? They're making a lot better living now than they would be on unemployment.

The money not being spent on the war any more can be used to make new job's for everyone.

But nope it will go to new weapons, ships and plane's for the next time.

Or a raise for the people in government.

And some towards Homeland security and watching all of us better not just our enemy's.

[CBT]

If they can grease the wheels with people in the GOV to keep them from implimenting too many reg's on what car's should get for gas milage then they are making too much money and making sure their profit's stay up there.

Instead of taxing cigg's why not just shut the company's down and or make them illegal like drugs?

As to fat people tax your talking in maybe's and why not's.

I would think drug's would be a better way to go tax wise seeing half the country uses them anyways so legalize them and tax them and make it so they have to buy it in a way where we know who is using and how much.

A new business for us like other country's do to finance their wars and to make new weapons.

My drug consumption is no one's business. I do wish I'd never started on ciggs, tho. They should be 20 bucks a pack.

[CBT]

The money not being spent on the war any more can be used to make new job's for everyone. <--- I agree with you, even tho I'm a veteran.

But nope it will go to new weapons, ships and plane's for the next time.

Or a raise for the people in government.

And some towards Homeland security and watching all of us better not just our enemy's.

It should ALL go to this!!!!:beer:

[LeoVampire]

It should ALL go to this!!!!:beer:

Eventualy for one reason or another time serving stops and then you need a job to servive and buy the things we all want to own and so forth.

As to the drugs it is another war we are losing and wasting money on so regulate it instead and make money off of it like other country's are doing.

People are robbing our houses anyways so they can get the damm drugs. If we control it and see who is buying it then it is easier to watch the money flow right? a guy with no job and not paying tax's who is buying drugs would send up a red flag for them to see how they are paying for this and might find another guy that robed your house a week ago for the money in the first place.

[SC Cheesehead]

The money not being spent on the war any more can be used to make new job's for everyone.

But nope it will go to new weapons, ships and plane's for the next time.

Or a raise for the people in government.

And some towards Homeland security and watching all of us better not just our enemy's.


While this is often stated as an alternative, I've never had anyone state with any clarity how you "make" a new job for anyone. In a market-based economy, there must be demand for goods before they will be produced, and without that demand, there is no reason to create jobs; that's a big part of the problem we have right now with the ongoing recession. People are concerned about the state of the economy and they aren't spending to buy new goods, and in addition, businesses are extremely concerned about tax rates, the looming cost of new healthcare, and other things that impede the capital spending that can lead to increased employment through ungrades and expansion, e.g. creating wealth.

On the other hand, we could cave in to those "enlightened" folks in Washington and shift the country from a free market model to one based on Keynesian economics, in which case we COULD use the tax dollars being spent on the war, etc. to make "new" jobs: We could hire a bunch of folks to go around breaking windows; that would then create jobs for people to go out and fix the windows, which would also increase the demand for glass, which would provide jobs for glass makers. Only problem with this is that the jobs don't create any sustainable value, no wealth is created, they just "make" work...:rolleyes:

Like I said in an earlier post, if you haven't read Atlas Shrugged, do so. I don't agree 100% with Ayn Rand's philosophies, but she darn sure nailed the economics on the head.

[CBT]

Eventualy for one reason or another time serving stops and then you need a job to servive and buy the things we all want to own and so forth.

As to the drugs it is another war we are losing and wasting money on so regulate it instead and make money off of it like other country's are doing.

People are robbing our houses anyways so they can get the damm drugs. If we control it and see who is buying it then it is easier to watch the money flow right? a guy with no job and not paying tax's who is buying drugs would send up a red flag for them to see how they are paying for this and might find another guy that robed your house a week ago for the money in the first place.

We do have a system, it's called welfare, and NO one tracks it, lol. When I'm elected, I plan on putting those welfare recipients to work doing all those jobs "no American wants to do", and have them harvest crops and hang drywall and cut grass. CBT in 2012!!

[CBT]

Like I said in an earlier post, if you haven't read Atlas Shrugged, do so. I don't agree 100% with Ayn Rand's philosophies, but she darn sure nailed the economics on the head.

A women wrote that? Interesting. Did you know a woman also wrote Brokeback Mountain?

[SC Cheesehead]

A women wrote that? Interesting. Did you know a woman also wrote Brokeback Mountain?

Come to think of it, prolly some parallels between the two stories; BOHICA...:rolleyes:

[Paul T. Casey]

The money not being spent on the war any more can be used to make new job's for everyone.

But nope it will go to new weapons, ships and plane's for the next time.

Or a raise for the people in government.

And some towards Homeland security and watching all of us better not just our enemy's.

First, what new job's for everybody? Doing what I mean. You can't just make jobs out of thin air. To make a job, a service or product that appeals to a customer base is required.

Next. You contradict yourself with the next statement. Building weapons, ships and planes are actually amongst the highest paying jobs out there. Donw the street from you in one direction is Electric Boat, another is Pratt and Whitney, a third is Sikorsky. All 3 are good jobs (even with health benefits that no-one gets denied). All they make is the tools that kept us from having to write in Cryllic since 1945, or learn the doctrine of Mao or Allah as of late.

Third. Don't matter what money is being spent anywhere, the Congress will get a raise. It's automatic, unless they hold a special session and vote to not take it.

The last one scares me the most. You would rather have Homeland Security spend all their money to watch our citizens rather than the bad guys over there? The incumbents are winning with you.

Note: Leo, don't take any of this personally, I still like you. It just scares me when I see folks who've been added to the collective as you seem to have been.

[LeoVampire]

First, what new job's for everybody? Doing what I mean. You can't just make jobs out of thin air. To make a job, a service or product that appeals to a customer base is required.

Next. You contradict yourself with the next statement. Building weapons, ships and planes are actually amongst the highest paying jobs out there. Donw the street from you in one direction is Electric Boat, another is Pratt and Whitney, a third is Sikorsky. All 3 are good jobs (even with health benefits that no-one gets denied). All they make is the tools that kept us from having to write in Cryllic since 1945, or learn the doctrine of Mao or Allah as of late.

Third. Don't matter what money is being spent anywhere, the Congress will get a raise. It's automatic, unless they hold a special session and vote to not take it.

The last one scares me the most. You would rather have Homeland Security spend all their money to watch our citizens rather than the bad guys over there? The incumbents are winning with you.

Note: Leo, don't take any of this personally, I still like you. It just scares me when I see folks who've been added to the collective as you seem to have been.


I said INSTEAD of trying to make more jobs they will use the money for other things like homeland security. I hate the idea of being watched and people using that to their advantage when they want to shut you up!!!

And we can create more jobs here if we stop outsourcing stuff our own country can make!!!!!!!!! Use the money to help set up new factory's to make all the stuff we buy from everyone else and keep our money inside of our boarders!

And yes I know that making weapons do keep some jobs going as well but there are limitations. Russia killed their country with the massing weapons build up not the total reason but damm it did help to mess up life there.

Moderation and better countrol of what is being made for our protection.

[Paul T. Casey]

Out sourcing starts at your home. Do you buy the $4 a pound fish at W##m##t or the $8 a pound fish at St** and S**p. If you need some home repairs do you hire the low bidder or do you get a local guy with local workers. It's easy to blame all our ills on the Gov't. "If they'd stop doing______, they could use that money to do _____ for me." This is America. We didn't get to be number 1 because we expected everything (read that health care, jobs, cars that go 100 MPG) handed to us. As individuals, we must each find our niche, and exploit it to it's limit. We also have to realize that even though we're all created equal, once the Doctor slaps our asses, equal is over. Just because say for example CBT has a billion dollars, doesn't mean that Leo the Vamp does, or even desreves it. A guy named Thomas Jefferson said it best, "You make your own luck."

[SC Cheesehead]

I said INSTEAD of trying to make more jobs they will use the money for other things like homeland security. I hate the idea of being watched and people using that to their advantage when they want to shut you up!!!

And we can create more jobs here if we stop outsourcing stuff our own country can make!!!!!!!!! Use the money to help set up new factory's to make all the stuff we buy from everyone else and keep our money inside of our boarders!

And yes I know that making weapons do keep some jobs going as well but there are limitations. Russia killed their country with the massing weapons build up not the total reason but damm it did help to mess up life there.

Moderation and better countrol of what is being made for our protection.

One of the primary reasons companies go offshore is the cost of doing business here in the US. High taxes, onerous healthcare legislation, pending cap and trade legislation, etc., all these things make the USA an unattractive place to do business.

Keeping money inside our borders isn't necessarily the answer either. If it costs more to buy American made goods than outsourced goods, why would you want to buy American? The ideal situation is to have US made goods competitively priced with those from outside the US, then we have foreign dollars coming into our country, creating wealth.

And "competitively priced" doesn't mean putting tariffs on imported goods to make them as expensive as American stuff, that doesn't get anybody from outside the US spending dollars on our goods, we've got to get the cost of our stuff down to compete in the global market.

How do we do that? Address the issues pointed out above.

[CBT]

Out sourcing starts at your home. Do you buy the $4 a pound fish at W##m##t or the $8 a pound fish at St** and S**p. If you need some home repairs do you hire the low bidder or do you get a local guy with local workers. It's easy to blame all our ills on the Gov't. "If they'd stop doing______, they could use that money to do _____ for me." This is America. We didn't get to be number 1 because we expected everything (read that health care, jobs, cars that go 100 MPG) handed to us. As individuals, we must each find our niche, and exploit it to it's limit. We also have to realize that even though we're all created equal, once the Doctor slaps our asses, equal is over. Just because say for example CBT has a billion dollars, doesn't mean that Leo the Vamp does, or even desreves it. A guy named Thomas Jefferson said it best, "You make your own luck."
I would pay off all the Marauders for my "family" here at .net, :hug2:or whatever vehicle they currently own and are paying on, and throw one heck of a gathering!

[SC Cheesehead]

"...CBT has a billion dollars..."


I would pay off all the Marauders for my "family" here at .net, :hug2:or whatever vehicle they currently own and are paying on, and throw one heck of a gathering!

:eek: Heck, know that I know that, I'm hoping I can talk you into buying a couple rounds at the Gasthaus next week...:beer:

[LeoVampire]

One of the primary reasons companies go offshore is the cost of doing business here in the US. High taxes, onerous healthcare legislation, pending cap and trade legislation, etc., all these things make the USA an unattractive place to do business.

Keeping money inside our borders isn't necessarily the answer either. If it costs more to buy American made goods than outsourced goods, why would you want to buy American? The ideal situation is to have US made goods competitively priced with those from outside the US, then we have foreign dollars coming into our country, creating wealth.

And "competitively priced" doesn't mean putting tariffs on imported goods to make them as expensive as American stuff, that doesn't get anybody from outside the US spending dollars on our goods, we've got to get the cost of our stuff down to compete in the global market.

How do we do that? Address the issues pointed out above.

The worker being paid minimum wage and the higher up's getting what the worker dosn't make in a lifetime.

That is part of the problem. One of the oldest sayings in this country is the rich get richer and the poor end up in poverty. (Ya I know not {verbotem?})

I remember when the last CEO of the compnay I worked for retired. He got a bonus of 1 million dollars plus is being paid $500,000.00 a year for the rest of his life and they paid off his house for him.

To be honest I wasn't all that pissed off about it because he did care about the company and the people working in it and tryed his best to keep it personal and Mom & pop dispite how large they were getting.

The new guy that replaced him did away with that mentality pretty damm quick and cut everyone's yearly bonuses in half. And he got hired for a hell of a lot more money than the old one left with.

GREED

[Paul T. Casey]

You never want to cap someone's pay. Takes away the incentive for hard work. I'm not saying that some bonuses are paid that shouldn't be, but the people paying the bonus must have thought it was deserved. The CEO's aren't necessarily writing them for themselves. This is more of the same "if I can't have it then no-one can." crap. People are not equal, the playing field has never been, will be, or should be level. If you want something, go out and earn it.

[Paul T. Casey]

and cut everyone's yearly bonuses in half.



Isn't this what those on the left espouse? What makes one bonus different from another?

[Leadfoot281]

The worker being paid minimum wage and the higher up's getting what the worker dosn't make in a lifetime.

That is part of the problem. One of the oldest sayings in this country is the rich get richer and the poor end up in poverty. (Ya I know not {verbotem?})

I remember when the last CEO of the compnay I worked for retired. He got a bonus of 1 million dollars plus is being paid $500,000.00 a year for the rest of his life and they paid off his house for him.

To be honest I wasn't all that pissed off about it because he did care about the company and the people working in it and tryed his best to keep it personal and Mom & pop dispite how large they were getting.

The new guy that replaced him did away with that mentality pretty damm quick and cut everyone's yearly bonuses in half. And he got hired for a hell of a lot more money than the old one left with.

GREED

Minimum wage is an entry level job. Look at it this way, was your first car a $200,000+ Ferrari? Probably not. That's what 1983 Ford Escorts are for. If you want that expensive car, I suggest you do something about it. It's not my job. If you think I'm wrong about this then put your money where your mouth is and send a supercharger kit.

Pulling the plug on a war that has terrorists busy dying just so you can have more stuff is also greedy.

[LeoVampire]

You never want to cap someone's pay. Takes away the incentive for hard work. I'm not saying that some bonuses are paid that shouldn't be, but the people paying the bonus must have thought it was deserved. The CEO's aren't necessarily writing them for themselves. This is more of the same "if I can't have it then no-one can." crap. People are not equal, the playing field has never been, will be, or should be level. If you want something, go out and earn it.

Nor do I expect to be paid the same as an exec with all those headachs he can have that possition.

But a little less seperation in the ranks would be a lot better.

The only thing I could never say bad about them back then is they cared about the workers.

100% Coverage Medical insurance on drugs, doctors, eyes, teeth everything no co-pays & only $125.00 a month for that. It was Blue Cross Blue shield out of Rochester.
And short term and long term disability coverage for all employee's.

They had a young manager that started @ the bottom like I did as a tech and worked his way up the lader. New Home and a new born baby. Found out he had terminal cancer.
The company bought the deed to his house and handed it to him and said don't worry we will take care of your family!

Just one of the many story's on things they did over the years for the employee's.

Plus they always sent the top techs from each shop to schools to keep them updated on the new cars and then they would teach the rest of the guys when they got back.

But I heard since the new CEO started a lot of that is gone now. Must have gotten too big for their britches after buying out all the speedy shops and wraping them up into the fold.

[LeoVampire]

Minimum wage is an entry level job. Look at it this way, was your first car a $200,000+ Ferrari? Probably not. That's what 1983 Ford Escorts are for. If you want that expensive car, I suggest you do something about it. It's not my job. If you think I'm wrong about this then put your money where your mouth is and send a supercharger kit.

Pulling the plug on a war that has terrorists busy dying just so you can have more stuff is also greedy.

Install it for free but won't pay for it!

Hadn't done one in years not since carb's stoped being used on new cars.

So I would love the opertunity to do one. Go ahead and buy it then I will do the work. Just don't expect it over night I have to work @ a slower pace and take more breaks.

The pit falls of a damaged heart and a pacemaker that dosn't allow it to work hard.

[FordNut]

Leo,
I've read some pretty radical ideas in some of your posts.

Limiting salaries? I guess that's some more of the re-distribution of wealth?

Limiting number of children? How? Forced sterilization? Forced abortion? Jail them for unauthorized pregnancy?

Just doesn't sound like an American making those kind of suggestions.

[LeoVampire]

Leo,
I've read some pretty radical ideas in some of your posts.

Limiting salaries? I guess that's some more of the re-distribution of wealth?

Limiting number of children? How? Forced sterilization? Forced abortion? Jail them for unauthorized pregnancy?

Just doesn't sound like an American making those kind of suggestions.

Most of the posters on here seem to think we are becomming a Government controled country anyways so might as well go with the flow. Right?!

[MrBluGruv]

The idea of capping potential income is terrifying in a free-market economy, even if that does mean CEO's don't get paid bonuses. Although it isn't the best reason for it, you know a lot of those types of bonuses and incentives for these guys come from some of the effects of the Sarbanes-Oxley, namely when a CEO signs off on a quarterly or anual financial report for investors they can be held accountable for mistakes or false information in that report. Suddenly the position looks far less attractive when you have to be personally responsible doesn't it?

The best part of this country is that, if it was allowed to truly operate in its parameters as a free-market, it could work almost all of its economic problems out on its own. The government intervention will always hinder and make difficult the progress that would naturally happen otherwise. Always.

[LeoVampire]

It is not too far fetched an idea to think most companys would do slave labor if they had the opertunity.

Look @ the info that got uncoverd about Toyota and what they are doing outside of the U.S. with labor pay and hours they have to work.

A lot of company's in country's not being regulated by the government do this so they can make more profit and produce a product for a cheaper price to under cut everyone else on the market.

That is the only thing that save's us here the Government and state's do their best to make sure it dosn't happen.

[MrBluGruv]

Isn't that what unions were for though?

[LeoVampire]

Isn't that what unions were for though?

I never had a union @ any job in my lifetime.

And there are ways around them especialy when contract renuals come up like is happening to a friend this June.
The union contract is comming up for renual so new hours and sceduals are being implimented @ that factory
before it is renewed.

No more over time pay hours reduced to 36 hours a week with 12 hour work days. This eliminates the need for
the 3 shift work day so no more extra pay will be issued for working 2nd and 3rd shifts.

Work 3 days a week then your out of there till the next pay period starts. Days worked rotates from week to week so
trying to figure out how to get a part time job is almost impossable.

Also this eliminates the need to pay anything for Holidays.

[Leadfoot281]

It is not too far fetched an idea to think most companys would do slave labor if they had the opertunity.

Look @ the info that got uncoverd about Toyota and what they are doing outside of the U.S. with labor pay and hours they have to work.

A lot of company's in country's not being regulated by the government do this so they can make more profit and produce a product for a cheaper price to under cut everyone else on the market.

That is the only thing that save's us here the Government and state's do their best to make sure it dosn't happen.

That already happens. Look at McDonalds or Wal-Mart. If you don't like it though you can always go to college or start a business. No one in this country is being forced to work crappy jobs.

[MrBluGruv]

I'm just saying, it's a way for the people themselves to look after their interests without government intervention.

If you union up, your employer may listen to you.

If they terminate you all, they will only hire cheap labor, which may or may not be in excess, and the end result is probably a cheaply made product.

Cheaply made products invite competition in the marketplace, creating more jobs, potentially creating more opporunities for fair employment.

If people are made aware of the bad employment practices of some companies, they may refuse to buy products and services from them, especially if there is adequate competition. I know that's at least the case with my girlfriend, she says she buys the coffee at Starbucks not because it is really better than anything (she once worked as a barista herself) but to a degree because they really work to take care of their employees.

In the end to, one can't always work in the field they really really want to, I know this as much as anyone seeing as I'm a skilled audio software plugin designer and the market there is exceedingly small.

It's truly amazing how much money really does affect the economy when the economy works as a true free-market. This system works the best I believe because it most closely mirrors the natural order of life, and it fails when the government steps in because it's trying to put artificial confines on the natural order.

[LeoVampire]

That already happens. Look at McDonalds or Wal-Mart. If you don't like it though you can always go to college or start a business. No one in this country is being forced to work crappy jobs.

Going into debt late in life with a new set of skills and more education in a job market that is picky and unstable isn't a good idea and still add's more over all debt from the government loans you will need to pull it off.

Be realistic!

That is for people starting off in life and have someone to fall back on like the parents not for someone with a family trying to servive and end up out in the streets.

[FordNut]

Going into debt late in life with a new set of skills and more education in a job market that is picky and unstable isn't a good idea and still add's more over all debt from the government loans you will need to pull it off.

Be realistic!

That is for people starting off in life and have someone to fall back on like the parents not for someone with a family trying to servive and end up out in the streets.

You're out of touch with reality. I was in my 40's when I got my BS, almost 50 when I got my MBA. Laziness and/or complacency is the reason people don't strive to improve themselves.

[LeoVampire]

You're out of touch with reality. I was in my 40's when I got my BS, almost 50 when I got my MBA. Laziness and/or complacency is the reason people don't strive to improve themselves.

No I am a realistic lower to middle class Blue coller worker or use to be anyways.

Took every class I could get to stay with the tech changes on the cars to make sure I did not become obsolete and self taught myself with PC's so I would have the chance to work in managment and made sure my people skills were top notch with the customers.

But @ maybe $50,000.00 a year, if the store's profit's stayed high enough to get good end of year bonuses as a manager, it dosn't leave a lot of room for change unless you live a very frugal life.

I made more as a truck driver but that type of life is a pain in the ass and gets to you over time and takes a toll on your body so I went back to Mechanics instead.

The Army forget it good benifits but low pay to say the least until you start making some rank changes.

If you don't start off in the right field to begin with it is not easy to figure out a new way of life.

I have seen plenty of guys go to college and end up working jobs that can't pay off the loans and allow them to live on their own as well.

[FordNut]

No I am a realistic lower to middle class Blue coller worker or use to be anyways.

Took every class I could get to stay with the tech changes on the cars to make sure I did not become obsolete and self taught myself with PC's so I would have the chance to work in managment and made sure my people skills were top notch with the customers.

But @ maybe $50,000.00 a year, if the store's profit's stayed high enough to get good end of year bonuses as a manager, it dosn't leave a lot of room for change unless you live a very frugal life.

I made more as a truck driver but that type of life is a pain in the ass and gets to you over time and takes a toll on your body so I went back to Mechanics instead.

The Army forget it good benifits but low pay to say the least until you start making some rank changes.

If you don't start off in the right field to begin with it is not easy to figure out a new way of life.

I have seen plenty of guys go to college and end up working jobs that can't pay off the loans and allow them to live on their own as well.

So the solution is to piss and moan because life is tough? Healthcare reform should create a lot of jobs, go get trained in some healthcare related trade. If you can't do the job you are currently trained for or if it doesn't exist any more or doesn't pay enough you just give up?

[FordNut]

No I am a realistic lower to middle class Blue coller worker or use to be anyways.

Took every class I could get to stay with the tech changes on the cars to make sure I did not become obsolete and self taught myself with PC's so I would have the chance to work in managment and made sure my people skills were top notch with the customers.

But @ maybe $50,000.00 a year, if the store's profit's stayed high enough to get good end of year bonuses as a manager, it dosn't leave a lot of room for change unless you live a very frugal life.

I made more as a truck driver but that type of life is a pain in the ass and gets to you over time and takes a toll on your body so I went back to Mechanics instead.

The Army forget it good benifits but low pay to say the least until you start making some rank changes.

If you don't start off in the right field to begin with it is not easy to figure out a new way of life.

I have seen plenty of guys go to college and end up working jobs that can't pay off the loans and allow them to live on their own as well.

I'm thinking you just implied if you can't make over $50k you might as well not work at all. Just how much do you think you're worth? There are tons of people with college degrees that are making $50k.

[Phrog_gunner]

But @ maybe $50,000.00 a year, if the store's profit's stayed high enough to get good end of year bonuses as a manager, it dosn't leave a lot of room for change unless you live a very frugal life.

So it looks like you are saying the choice is yours. You choose to either better yourself, or "buy that new big screen". Whichever choice you made is up to you, so the ramifications of the choice lie solely with you.

[FordNut]

I guess salary caps are fine as long as they apply to somebody else?

[LeoVampire]

So the solution is to piss and moan because life is tough? Healthcare reform should create a lot of jobs, go get trained in some healthcare related trade. If you can't do the job you are currently trained for or if it doesn't exist any more or doesn't pay enough you just give up?


Just stating facts from mine and others I know situations that I /We have seen and run into.

None of them gave up and still work and do what they can. When they have to take a part time job to make ends meet they do. When the opertunity comes up to get into the field they know they do it.

And I am not pissing and moaning so back the ***** off.

I am joining the discussion and adding points of view and ways to look @ things from differnt perspectives.

I know your out of work and living off of unemployment you said so in the drive shaft posting so get off your high and mighty horse.

Why don't you go out and get a part time job instead of living off of unemployment?

[Phrog_gunner]

I guess salary caps are fine as long as they apply to somebody else?

We should impose GRADE caps in school. It's not fair when some kids score higher than other kids. Start taking the extra points from the smart kids and redistribute them to the not as smart kids.

[FordNut]

We should impose GRADE caps in school. It's not fair when some kids score higher than other kids. Start taking the extra points from the smart kids and redistribute them to the not as smart kids.

They already did this. The standards have been lowered so the dumb kids pass, the average kids and really smart kids are basically ranked equal.

[Phrog_gunner]

They already did this. The standards have been lowered so the dumb kids pass, the average kids and really smart kids are basically ranked equal.

Sweet, those have got to be the same morons that think raising minimum wage does anything to help people at the bottom.

[MrBluGruv]

No Child Left Behind

=

Every Child Held Back.

[FordNut]

Just stating facts from mine and others I know situations that I /We have seen and run into.

None of them gave up and still work and do what they can. When they have to take a part time job to make ends meet they do. When the opertunity comes up to get into the field they know they do it.

And I am not pissing and moaning so back the ***** off.

I am joining the discussion and adding points of view and ways to look @ things from differnt perspectives.

I know your out of work and living off of unemployment you said so in the drive shaft posting so get off your high and mighty horse.

Why don't you go out and get a part time job instead of living off of unemployment?

I figure I worked steadily for over 28 years without a break. I paid way more into unemployment insurance than I'll ever draw back out of it. And all of my bills are paid and on time, including doctor bills. So I really don't need to go out and get a part time job.

[Phrog_gunner]

Can someone please tell me where in the Constitution it says the Fed can: limit a CEOs salary a.k.a. close the gap between the rich and poor a.k.a. redistribution of wealth?

[knine]

No Child Left Behind

=

Every Child Held Back.
Love that quote :2thumbs:

[LeoVampire]

So it looks like you are saying the choice is yours. You choose to either better yourself, or "buy that new big screen". Whichever choice you made is up to you, so the ramifications of the choice lie solely with you.

Did have a house I was paying for and a car @ the time.

Lost the house when I had to stop working kept and paid for the Grand Marquies though.

[MrBluGruv]

I can testify for the truth in it too, I was in public school for 4 years with that bill enacted, pretty much a waste of time. My senior year of high school was a complete joke, it would have made no difference if I had not shown up to a single class.

[Phrog_gunner]

Did have a house I was paying for and a car @ the time.

Lost the house when I had to stop working kept and paid for the Grand Marquies though.

Sorry to hear about the house. When i said YOU, I wasn't actually referring to LeoVamp, I was using to mean the person who's choices they were.

[LeoVampire]

Sorry to hear about the house. When i said YOU, I wasn't actually referring to LeoVamp, I was using to mean the person who's choices they were.

Understood and I do get more defensive than I should some times so I appologize.

[Phrog_gunner]

Understood and I do get more defensive than I should some times so I appologize.

No apologies necessary, I didn't take it that way.

[LIGHTNIN1]

I figure I worked steadily for over 28 years without a break. I paid way more into unemployment insurance than I'll ever draw back out of it. And all of my bills are paid and on time, including doctor bills. So I really don't need to go out and get a part time job.

I don't blame you. You have done more than a lot of people and need a break. I feel the same about paying into Social Security.I earn money.Uncle Sam takes a large portion out to HELP me.Then later he sends it back to me. I've heard you get maybe a 2% return on your money. I can save money.Why can't I just keep it to begin with?

[SC Cheesehead]

I don't blame you. You have done more than a lot of people and need a break. I feel the same about paying into Social Security. I earn money. Uncle Sam takes a large portion out to HELP me.Then later he sends it back to me. I've heard you get maybe a 2% return on your money. I can save money.Why can't I just keep it to begin with?


Ahhh, but if you did that, then the government couldn't get their hands on it. ;)

Social Security is one of the biggest Ponzi schemes ever devised. If someone in the private sector tried to pull this off, they'd throw his azz in jail and toss away the key.

As for ROR on your "investment", say you start working at 18 and pay in until retiring at 65, that's 47 years. Assume over the course of your career that your average annual income is $50,000. Both you and your employer are required to pay in 6.2% (12.4% total) of that income into Social Security, for a total of $300,800 over your career. Suppose after you retire, you draw SS for one year, and then you die. If you're married, you will have collected a benefit of around $22,500 for that year (non-taxable if you had less than $43,000 in other earnings; up to 85% taxable at betweeen 6% - 7.8% if you have any earnings over $43K). So, that leaves a balance of over $278,000 that YOU paid into the SS fund. Want to take a guess who collects the balance of the funds you paid in? I'll give you a hint, it ain't any of your blood relation. :rolleyes:

[FordNut]

Ahhh, but if you did that, then the government couldn't get their hands on it. ;)

Social Security is one of the biggest Ponzi schemes ever devised. If someone in the private sector tried to pull this off, they'd throw his azz in jail and toss away the key.

As for ROR on your "investment", say you start working at 18 and pay in until retiring at 65, that's 47 years. Assume over the course of your career that your average annual income is $50,000. Both you and your employer are required to pay in 6.2% (12.4% total) of that income into Social Security, for a total of $300,800 over your career. Suppose after you retire, you draw SS for one year, and then you die. If you're married, you will have collected a benefit of around $22,500 for that year (non-taxable if you had less than $43,000 in other earnings; up to 85% taxable at betweeen 6% - 7.8% if you have any earnings over $43K). So, that leaves a balance of over $278,000 that YOU paid into the SS fund. Want to take a guess who collects the balance of the funds you paid in? I'll give you a hint, it ain't any of your blood relation. :rolleyes:

And it's going broke. But no worries, the same folks are going to take care of our health care. With their track record we won't live long enough to need that retirement money anyway.

[CBT]

Can someone please tell me where in the Constitution it says the Fed can: limit a CEOs salary a.k.a. close the gap between the rich and poor a.k.a. redistribution of wealth?
What's this Constitution you speak of? Sounds like some fancy made up word.

[CBT]

Want to take a guess who collects the balance of the funds you paid in? I'll give you a hint, it ain't any of your blood relation. :rolleyes:
Gosh, I just hope it goes to somone who truly needs it. Like some jobless skank with more kids than years completed in school.

[teamrope]

Because the Healthcare Bill was presented in such an open and 'transparent' method, there was no obvious backroom deal making nor political pay-offs for votes, and it is only 2,400 pages long...
I feel confident that our elected officials have listened to the voting public and done us right!

I mean...look at how successful Social Security is!

:rolleyes:

And I got to watch all the "informal" debate on CSPAN. :)

[Phrog_gunner]

Gosh, I just hope it goes to somone who truly needs it. Like some jobless skank with more kids than years completed in school.

That is racist.

[Paul T. Casey]

That is racist.

No it's not. I used to date a bunch of them, all sizes, shapes, colors, and flavors.

[Phrog_gunner]

No it's not. I used to date a bunch of them, all sizes, shapes, colors, and flavors.

Was extra cheese one of those flavors? :puke:

[Paul T. Casey]

Yeast and feta.

[SC Cheesehead]

No it's not. I used to date a bunch of them, all sizes, shapes, colors, and flavors.

Reminds me of an old Willie Wood quote he had about Vince Lombardi, "Coach Lombardi was the most democratic, unbiased man I know; he treated us all like dogs..."

[SC Cheesehead]

More C.Y.C.B.I...:shake:

"...Take a look at the following introduction of a nationwide tax upon Internet goods and services, inserted within page 58 of the Federal Communications Commission's (FCC) National Broadband Plan released this week:

Digital Goods and Services Taxation

RECOMMENDATION 4.20: The federal government should investigate establishing a national framework for digital goods and services taxation."

http://www.thefoxnation.com/business/2010/04/02/obama-plans-levy-internet-tax

[FordNut]

My God, we gotta get these people out of Washington.

[LeoVampire]

More C.Y.C.B.I...:shake:

"...Take a look at the following introduction of a nationwide tax upon Internet goods and services, inserted within page 58 of the Federal Communications Commission's (FCC) National Broadband Plan released this week:

Digital Goods and Services Taxation

RECOMMENDATION 4.20: The federal government should investigate establishing a national framework for digital goods and services taxation."

http://www.thefoxnation.com/business/2010/04/02/obama-plans-levy-internet-tax

Digital Goods and Services Taxation
RECOMMENDATION 4.20: The federal government should investigate establishing a national framework for digital goods and services taxation.
The National Broadband Plan is focused on increasing beneficial use of the Internet, including e-commerce and new innovative business models. The current patchwork of state and local laws and regulations relating to taxation of digital goods and services (such as ringtones, digital music, etc.) may hinder new investment and business models. Entrepreneurs and small businesses in particular may lack the resources to understand and comply with the various tax regimes.
Recognizing that state and local governments pursue varying approaches to raising tax revenues, a national framework for digital goods and services taxation would reduce uncertainty and remove one barrier to online entrepreneurship and investment.
Ponder that curious logic for a moment.
Americans already suffering from a recession prolonged by Mr. Obama's policies are being asked to concur that raising - yes, raising - taxes on a nationwide basis will somehow "reduce uncertainty and remove one barrier to online entrepreneurship and investment."
Consider also that section's observation that "entrepreneurs and small businesses in particular may lack the resources to understand and comply with the various tax regimes."As if federal tax laws are straightforward? Anyone who has asked two separate tax attorneys to ascertain a provision from the Internal Revenue Code and received seven different indecipherable answers can immediately recognize the absurdity of suggesting that federalizing Internet taxes would somehow "reduce uncertainty" and facilitate understanding and compliance.
In just fourteen months, political discourse during Mr. Obama's tenure has pioneered new depths in Orwellian Newspeak - think of "jobs saved or created," for instance - but this is remarkable even by those standards.
The FCC's National Broadband Plan contains other tax-increase proposals, unfortunately. It states that we "should broaden the universal service contribution base," which refers to the tax upon telecommunications service providers created by the FCC in 1997.
Just what the Internet sector needs - a new tax upon Internet-service providers whose yearly investments in network expansion are necessary to keep pace with exploding Internet data traffic.
These tax proposals in the National Broadband Plan come just as the FCC continues to push so-called "Net Neutrality" regulations for the Internet.
"Net Neutrality," which in fact constitutes Net regulation, would prohibit service providers from differentiating distinct forms of Internet data. And why is this important? Because with booming Internet use consuming ever-greater amounts of scarce network capacity, service providers must be free to test innovative methods to prioritize data to prevent gridlock.For instance, emergency medical data could be prioritized over routine recreational video downloads.But Net Neutrality would stifle that sort of experimentation and innovation.
The result of "Net Neutrality" would be fewer incentives for Internet-service providers to continue investing in infrastructure expansion, which would in turn degrade Internet quality as ever-increasing traffic overwhelms existing capacity. The Internet has flourished like few technologies in human history precisely because its innovators and service pro-viders have remained free of regulatory suffocation."Net Neutrality," however, and now proposed taxation of Internet goods and services would jeopardize that.
The nation's attention understandably remains focused upon the yearlong fiasco that is ObamaCare. Nevertheless, the FCC's agenda recalls Ronald Reagan's portrayal of government logic: "If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."
As concerns the Internet, the Obama administration is at the tax and regulation stage. Should it succeed in imposing Internet taxes and "Net Neutrality," however, it's only a matter of time until we would reach the failure and subsidy stage for yet another sector of our economy.
Timothy H. Lee is vice president of legal and public affairs for the Center for Individual Freedom.

[LIGHTNIN1]

My God, we gotta get these people out of Washington.

They need to be out of the country since they dislike. it and everyone in it so much. We have no idea about all the taxes just on healthcare alone yet. I heard that since they did not have the votes for cap and trade they were going to levy all the taxes on that through the EPA under the umbrella of controlling co2 emissions. In other words there will be taxes on you breathing.

[SC Cheesehead]

...Americans already suffering from a recession prolonged by Mr. Obama's policies are being asked to concur that raising - yes, raising - taxes on a nationwide basis will somehow "reduce uncertainty and remove one barrier to online entrepreneurship and investment."

I swear, this sounds just like something Wesley Mouch would propose, and that Mr. Thompson would accept as policy in a heartbeat...:shake:

[LIGHTNIN1]

To know what these people are thinking like you say just read Atlas Shrugged and their operating manual Saul Alinskys book, Rules for Radicals. Forget about the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

[MrBluGruv]

These constant plans and proposals from D.C. really make a person want to stop bothering with getting anywhere in life. Maybe that is their plan? :(

[Dr Caleb]

Hence the wait list, but there is no rationing just like it is "free"?

Dr. Caleb - "...And I do not pay one cent for it..", "Wait lists are not rationing. Wait lists ocurr for many reasons, including that there may only be a limited number of surgeons to perform the operation." But rationing is not one of the "many reasons"?

You say there are no wait times and I post several Canadian sources that there are. "Last Updated: Monday, October 15, 2007 | 4:09 PM ET
CBC News
The average wait time for a Canadian awaiting surgery or other medical treatment is now 18.3 weeks, a new high, according to a report released Monday."
"From the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 12/05;
From Specialist to surgery 50% for hip replacement - waited 4.5 months
From Specialist to surgery 50% for knee replacement - waited 7 months."


Yet, I posted information from 2009 and 2010 showing you those were eliminated. Repeating outdated statistics - FUD.



You say you have better coverage and you have no idea what coverage I have. I know this I have better coverage than this Canadian;

" ST. JOHN 'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States .
Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for."


So, you didn't read my article? Mr. Williams chose to forgo his local hospital, instead choosing to undergo a procedure not yet offered in Canada - on his own dime. He would have received excellent treatment in his home province.



You say it's better and yet the Cancer survival rate for Canada is lower than the USA, per Canadian sources, despite the USA having a group that makes up 13% of our population with men whose life expectancy is 9% less and women 4% less.


Yet, you refuse to say what form of cancer so we can look at the statistics. More FUD.



You say Healthcare should not be profit motivated, well than look at the quality of life in countries where there is no "profit", N. Korea for starters. Hey lets expand it to all of man kind no profit motive ever from the begining of time. We would most likely have no medical care so it truly would be "free".

You keep implying that Gov't is more efficient, has no profit motive so it costs less. In the USA a Federal employee cost over $40K more than the private sector. All the profits of all the health insurers will pay for 3 days of healthcare in the USA. Lets elminate all the profit of all healthcare providers and the entire medical industry just in the USA, what would medical care look like? There are more Clincal Trials in Houston than several European Countries.

Since when is Healthcare in North Korea profit motivated? What do clinical trials have to do with actual patient care? More FUD for the pile.

If quality of life is your indicator, then why is Canada ranked higher in longevity and has lower infant mortality than the US?

Canada is #190, the US is #180.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html?countryName=Cana da&countryCode=ca&regionCode=na&rank=190#ca

Canada is #7, the US is #49

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html?countryName=Cana da&countryCode=ca&regionCode=na&rank=7#ca

Why does Canada consistantly beat the US in all Quaility of life indicators? Why does every single 1st world country above the US in the UN Human Development Index also have Universal Healthcare?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

[Dr Caleb]

Dr. Caleb, I usually look forward to your posts, but that last line gave me a good laugh!

Glad I could make you laugh and that I'm not totally wasting my time here. How much profit does your local fire and police departments bring in to the stockholders? Oh! They don't operate on a for-profit basis? Then how does everyone get paid?


Nor should it be the biggest government boondoggle this side of Social Security!

*there....fixed it for ya!:2thumbs:

How's that banking and housing bailout going for you guys?


If you need heart surgery, you will get it in Canada regardless of budget. It's the law. Deficits in Healthcare budgets happen all the time because more people got sick than expected. But, that's also the advantage. Healthcare shouldn't be profit motivated

Yeah, why on earth would a physician who had at least 4 years of college followed by med school possibly want to make any money caring for sick people? If he was a GOOD Socialist, he'd do it because it was the right thing to do, and damn the money. Same holds true for nurses, and lab techs, X-Ray techs...:rolleyes:

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. - Karl Marx

135 later, and it's still a crock of s**t.

Still confusing Communism with Socialism I see. Or, trying to equate them again by using FUD at least.

So, what does getting paid for your work have to do with profit for the company for which you work? Are you trying to imply that doctors and nurses here don't get paid? Did you read where I link to articles about some of the most profitable businesses here are actually doctors clinics and diagnostic labs?

They are actually privately run, you know? It's the Insurance and Hospitals that are not for profit. But I guess FUD is more important than fact in this discussion. I guess I'll leave you guys to it, and stop trying to inject some facts to the discussion.

[FordNut]

I guess I'll leave you guys to it....

Thanks for the thought, but I doubt it.

[Dr Caleb]

Thanks for the thought, but I doubt it.

Like I said in my first post in this thread - if people hadn't started posting bullsh-t, I would have ignored this thread completely. I know facts get uncomfortable, but my intentions here are only honourable.

I reserve the right to counter bullsh-t whenever I 'step' in it. ;)

[SC Cheesehead]

Glad I could make you laugh and that I'm not totally wasting my time here. How much profit does your local fire and police departments bring in to the stockholders? Oh! They don't operate on a for-profit basis? Then how does everyone get paid?



How's that banking and housing bailout going for you guys?



Still confusing Communism with Socialism I see. Or, trying to equate them again by using FUD at least.

So, what does getting paid for your work have to do with profit for the company for which you work? Are you trying to imply that doctors and nurses here don't get paid? Did you read where I link to articles about some of the most profitable businesses here are actually doctors clinics and diagnostic labs?

They are actually privately run, you know? It's the Insurance and Hospitals that are not for profit. But I guess FUD is more important than fact in this discussion. I guess I'll leave you guys to it, and stop trying to inject some facts to the discussion.

That abomination was, and remains a government program. Your very statement supports many of the concerns posted here about the government's ability to successfully manage ANY program.

No sir, no confusion here.

"What is the difference between socialism and communism? Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds (socialism). From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs (communism).
The socialist principle of distribution according to deeds— that is, for quality and quantity of work performed, is immediately possible and practical. On the other hand, the communist principle of distribution according to needs is not immediately possible and practical—it is an ultimate goal."
http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

The author's statement, "...is immediately possible and practical..." shouldn't be construed to mean "it is welcome or desirable."

Interesting, yet I can cite other articles that relate to the shortage of doctors that many provinces are facing, and the efforts that New Brunswick, et al, are undertaking to recruit foreign doctors or incorporate Nurse Practitioners to fill the gap. I didn't mean to imply that medical professionals aren't paid, but the case could be made that it may not be a particularly lucrative career path in Canada.


What you may not realize, or perhaps just won't accept is that there are a whole bunch of us "south of the border" that don't want socialized medicine. I appreciate your input into the disucssion, but you're not going to change our minds, and obviously we aren't going to change yours, so the best point we can reach is to agree to disagree. ;)

[LIGHTNIN1]

All these facts and or points Dr. Caleb is going over have already been made and it does not matter as we the United States still do not want to be like Canada. They have a GST TAX( VAT) to help pay for this type medicine.We do not have that until now they pass this bill and Congress says we have to have one also to pay for the new health bill.That is just one of many taxes we will endure to pay for socialized medicine.
Canada has 34 million people the US has 300 million, a lot of difference. What may work for Canada very well may not work for us. I am sure Canada has politicians that are of the utmost honesty and character and will do what they are suppose to with the money. Unfortunately our politicians do not fit that criteria and from all the other programs and agencys whatever they touch turns sour and it ends up costing 40 times the original estimate. Social Security is broke this year. The U. S. is broke.
It is useless to compare Canada with us. Different situation and set of circumstances.

[SC Cheesehead]

^^^^^^ Well said. :up: ^^^^^

[CBT]

Like I said in my first post in this thread - if people hadn't started posting bullsh-t, I would have ignored this thread completely. I know facts get uncomfortable, but my intentions here are only honourable.

I reserve the right to counter bullsh-t whenever I 'step' in it. ;)

No worries, my posting the topic was to get everyones views. Facts, lies, personal experience, quotes, news articles, it's all good. This has been page after page of point/counter point on an obviously emotional topic. I still have not read anything to make me like having to pay more for this program, and have not read anywhere how it will NOT cost me more. Plus, it is still unconstitutional, no one has effectively countered my post on that.

[Phrog_gunner]

Plus, it is still unconstitutional, no one has effectively countered my post on that.

Apparently the Dem's aren't sworn to uphold the Constitution anymore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2iiirr5KI8

[MrBluGruv]

^ lol.....

[dakslim]

Apparently the Dem's aren't sworn to uphold the Constitution anymore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2iiirr5KI8

What's wrong with that...Pelosi said "we have to pass it to find out what's in it.":eek:

[Shora]

I still have not read anything to make me like having to pay more for this program, and have not read anywhere how it will NOT cost me more. Plus, it is still unconstitutional, no one has effectively countered my post on that.

I agree but only to a point.

I don't want to pay for the VA benefits, S.Security, or Medicare/ Aid.

When those "unconstitutional" programs get repealed, I will be the first one to champion getting this one repealed too.

I took a break from this thread for a while hoping that clearing my mind would help me understand how those receiving benefits from Socialist programs (unconstitutional) and can be so against "other" Socialist programs.

I cannot understand how those receiving unemployment checks, S.S., Medicare/ Aid can speak against "this" program WHILE COLLECTING BENEFITS FROM SOCIALIST PROGRAMS.

Just be honest and say, I don't like this program bc it "may" not help me. I want Socialist programs so long as they help/ benefit me. If they help others, they are no good. In the mean time, I would like to keep my Socialist programs active.

It's all like one big joke and I am shocked that anyone takes these arguments seriously.

Maybe those against this program can at the VERY LEAST PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH?

[CBT]

What's wrong with that...Pelosi said "we have to pass it to find out what's in it.":eek:
That's like doing "Secret Santa" at the office party, and someone ***** in one of the bags, but hey, you're stuck with it once you open it.

[CBT]

I don't agree with a lot of them, I wish I could be in charge, I really really do. If I could make pen and ink changes to the Constitution, I'd end a ton of entitlement programs. I partake in VA benefits, it was a perk that came with the job. I like the retirement pay, don't really care for the medical or dental, so I get those thru my current employer, not the tax payer. My social security statement shows I've been paying taxes since I was 13, yes 13, non-stop ever since. Freeloaders can kiss my ass. But that's my opinion, and we all know the ol' saying about opinions, lol.



I agree but only to a point.

I don't want to pay for the VA benefits, S.Security, or Medicare/ Aid.

When those "unconstitutional" programs get repealed, I will be the first one to champion getting this one repealed too.

I took a break from this thread for a while hoping that clearing my mind would help me understand how those receiving benefits from Socialist programs (unconstitutional) and can be so against "other" Socialist programs.

I cannot understand how those receiving unemployment checks, S.S., Medicare/ Aid can speak against "this" program WHILE COLLECTING BENEFITS FROM SOCIALIST PROGRAMS.

Just be honest and say, I don't like this program bc it "may" not help me. I want Socialist programs so long as they help/ benefit me. If they help others, they are no good. In the mean time, I would like to keep my Socialist programs active.

It's all like one big joke and I am shocked that anyone takes these arguments seriously.

Maybe those against this program can at the VERY LEAST PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH?

[Phrog_gunner]

I agree but only to a point.

I don't want to pay for the VA benefits, S.Security, or Medicare/ Aid.

When those "unconstitutional" programs get repealed, I will be the first one to champion getting this one repealed too.

Actually the VA program is Constitutional. Try reading it sometime.

[Dr Caleb]

What you may not realize, or perhaps just won't accept is that there are a whole bunch of us "south of the border" that don't want socialized medicine. I appreciate your input into the disucssion, but you're not going to change our minds, and obviously we aren't going to change yours, so the best point we can reach is to agree to disagree. ;)

I can agree to that. :) Especially since we in Canada don't have Socialized Medicine. (ie: The doctors work for the state, like the UK and France) We have Socialized Health Care (Single health insurer, Doctors work for themselves).

I know you guys don't want it. I'm just trying to show you that it can work. It does work, in many countries larger than the US and Canada. You don't have to fear it, if it's done right it only improves the quality of your life.

[Dr Caleb]

All these facts and or points Dr. Caleb is going over have already been made and it does not matter as we the United States still do not want to be like Canada. They have a GST TAX( VAT) to help pay for this type medicine.

...

It is useless to compare Canada with us. Different situation and set of circumstances.

Just a point - the GST is not a tax to pay for healthcare. It was a replacement for a manufacturers tax, that shifted the tax burden from producers to consumers, freeing them up to 'compete' in the new NAFTA environment so manufacturing and jobs could be sent to Mexico easier. Or, that's how I see it. Public healthcare came in long before the GST.

Healthcare funding comes from general revenue - or Income Tax mostly. The GST is a small percentage.

[MrBluGruv]

...if it's done right...


Therein lies a serious problem. I don't WANT to dislike this whole plan, in a perfect world it should all work well and according to plan, but I like many people don't trust the wisdom and ability of this organization (or lack thereof pretty much) to handle such a task.

[Dr Caleb]

I don't disagree. But we had Keifer Sutherland's (aka: Jack Bauer's) grandfather organizing our Health Care system, and he did a great job. I guess it all depends on the MFWICs.

[Bluerauder]

You don't have to fear it, if it's done right it only improves the quality of your life.

I think THAT is the point that nearly everyone who has posted in this thread has tried to make in one form or another. They/we DON'T TRUST the government to get it right. The track record is not good. Government regulation alone will drive up the costs. It'll mean more paperwork and checks for business large and small. More oversight for insurers and more tracking and justification for doctors, hospitals and health care agencies. Save money ?? .... I really doubt it.

I don't like to envision that my surgery one day could be performed by the lowest bidder. :P

[SC Cheesehead]

I think THAT is the point that nearly everyone who has posted in this thread has tried to make in one form or another. They/we DON'T TRUST the government to get it right. The track record is not good. Government regulation alone will drive up the costs. It'll mean more paperwork and checks for business large and small. More oversight for insurers and more tracking and justification for doctors, hospitals and health care agencies. Save money ?? .... I really doubt it.

I don't like to envision that my surgery one day could be performed by the lowest bidder. :P

^^^^^ Charlie nailed it ^^^^^

[Haggis]

^^^^^ Charlie nailed it ^^^^^

That's what she said.

[CBT]

I think THAT is the point that nearly everyone who has posted in this thread has tried to make in one form or another. They/we DON'T TRUST the government to get it right. The track record is not good. Government regulation alone will drive up the costs. It'll mean more paperwork and checks for business large and small. More oversight for insurers and more tracking and justification for doctors, hospitals and health care agencies. Save money ?? .... I really doubt it.

I don't like to envision that my surgery one day could be performed by the lowest bidder. :P

Hey hey heeeeeey!! The space shuttles were built by the lowest bidder, and that has been a smashing success!!

[Phrog_gunner]

Hey hey heeeeeey!! The space shuttles were built by the lowest bidder, and that has been a smashing success!!

Tell that to the families of the Challenger crew.

[CBT]

Tell that to the families of the Challenger crew.
Well, yeah, with the exception of the 2 shuttles we lost. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, smashing success!! Stop looking to the past, this program is good for us, and you'll like it.
I can't wait until "health care" is too big to fail and we bail them out with our tax dollars. Smashing success!!

[Phrog_gunner]

Well, yeah, with the exception of the 2 shuttles we lost. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, smashing success!! Stop looking to the past, this program is good for us, and you'll like it.
I can't wait until "health care" is too big to fail and we bail them out with our tax dollars. Smashing success!!

I can't wait till the days when the colon cancer mortality rate is 184% higher like it is in Canada and the waiting list for an appointment is twice as long, we have 1/3 the CT scanners and 1/4 the MRIs and we think, hey our system is pretty good.

[CBT]

Here's some food for thought. Drug companies don't do any research any more. We the people pay for NSA grants, academia does the research, and the drug companies only come into the picture when there's something there to buy. Strangely enough, the universities make out, the professors make out (when they luck into having a saleable product), but the ones footing the bill - the taxpayers - get screwed. You can shut down any Pharma company around today and the state of American Pharmaceutical RnD wouldn't blink. They only hire chemical engineers to build the plants and some guys to design the pills. "Hmmm..., what color will these be, Dark Pearl Blue? Silver Bieeeerch? Maybe make them caplets this time?"
Also, guess who this statement is refering to:

"The resulting spike in the company's bottom-line financials earned him awards as the Outstanding Chief Executive Officer in the Pharmaceutical Industry from the Wall Street Transcript (1980) and Financial World (1981)".

[Phrog_gunner]

Here's some food for thought. Drug companies don't do any research any more. We the people pay for NSA grants, academia does the research, and the drug companies only come into the picture when there's something there to buy. Strangely enough, the universities make out, the professors make out (when they luck into having a saleable product), but the ones footing the bill - the taxpayers - get screwed. You can shut down any Pharma company around today and the state of American Pharmaceutical RnD wouldn't blink. They only hire chemical engineers to build the plants and some guys to design the pills. "Hmmm..., what color will these be, Dark Pearl Blue? Silver Bieeeerch? Maybe make them caplets this time?"
Also, guess who this statement is refering to:

"The resulting spike in the company's bottom-line financials earned him awards as the Outstanding Chief Executive Officer in the Pharmaceutical Industry from the Wall Street Transcript (1980) and Financial World (1981)".


Who?

And the university uses the money from those research projects to fund other projects and therefore keep costs down. The taxpayers benefit by lower tuition costs, and having better medicines developed? Obviously, if money is going through the government there is probably much room for improvement, but you might not think its that big of a scam if you went to REAL college, not an online one and saw how it really worked. :P

[CBT]

Who?

And the university uses the money from those research projects to fund other projects and therefore keep costs down. The taxpayers benefit by lower tuition costs, and having better medicines developed? Obviously, if money is going through the government there is probably much room for improvement, but you might not think its that big of a scam if you went to REAL college, not an online one and saw how it really worked. :P

LOL, phag! I attend, in person, Saint Leo University!

But yeah, Donald Rumsfeld. Yeah, THAT Donald Rumsfeld. So what it tells me is there are 2 places to make money: War, and the drugs that help the injured from those wars. So all you have to do is get in a position of power, invade some third world **** hole, kick back and reap profits. Sha-boing!

[Phrog_gunner]

LOL, phag! I attend, in person, Saint Leo University

You just proved my point. That's right up there with U of Phoenix. When
Larry Fitzgerald (WR for the Cardinals) gets on the commercial for UP and says "do dat" right before he mentions he is a Communications major.

[FordNut]

Anybody noticed the sudden price increase? When it was passed the big buzz was "$950 billion, so it's under that $1 trillion threshold". Now in the big O'bummer's speeches he touts the $1.3 trillion healthcare overhaul legislation. No big press reports on where they "fudged" on those initial numbers, but that's a 1/3 TRILLION dollar error. And that's what, 2 weeks after the initial bill was signed?

[Bluerauder]

Anybody noticed the sudden price increase? When it was passed the big buzz was "$950 billion, so it's under that $1 trillion threshold". Now in the big O'bummer's speeches he touts the $1.3 trillion healthcare overhaul legislation. No big press reports on where they "fudged" on those initial numbers, but that's a 1/3 TRILLION dollar error. And that's what, 2 weeks after the initial bill was signed?

And guess what .... it ain't gonna stop there either. This is gonna be a $2 Trillion boondoggle by the time it is fully implemented. CBO knew that it had some flakey assumptions going into the estimate; but they were "coerced" into making highly optimistic forecasts. These things are never as optimistic as the best case assumptions. I would have settled for a middle of the road set of assumptions to get a more accurate picture. Of course, that course of action would not have served the administrations goals.

[CBT]

You just proved my point. That's right up there with U of Phoenix. When
Larry Fitzgerald (WR for the Cardinals) gets on the commercial for UP and says "do dat" right before he mentions he is a Communications major.
U of P is a rip-off, I have heard horror stories from former U of P students who are now Saint Leo students.

[LeoVampire]

You just proved my point. That's right up there with U of Phoenix. When
Larry Fitzgerald (WR for the Cardinals) gets on the commercial for UP and says "do dat" right before he mentions he is a Communications major.

Maybe he was trying to Communicate to the demagraphics it is aimed @?

[Phrog_gunner]

Maybe he was trying to Communicate to the demagraphics it is aimed @?

Then why didn't he do the whole commercial in that dialect or whatever other word you want to use to explain away the ignorance?

[CBT]

Maybe he was trying to Communicate to the demagraphics it is aimed @?

Pants on the ground, pants on the ground, runnin around the campus with your pants on the ground.

[Phrog_gunner]

Pants on the ground, pants on the ground, runnin around the campus with your pants on the ground.

I heard that meant that you won't fight back if someone tries to put it in your butt. Supposedly came from incarceration situations.

[LeoVampire]

Then why didn't he do the whole commercial in that dialect or whatever other word you want to use to explain away the ignorance?

The way a lot of guys talk now a days in chat rooms, on the phone and streets it's hard to tell if they went to school or not.

[CBT]

I heard that meant that you won't fight back if someone tries to put it in your butt. Supposedly came from incarceration situations.

What does being prison ***** have to do with health ca....OOOOOOoooohhhhh, lol!!!

[Phrog_gunner]

The way a lot of guys talk now a days in chat rooms, on the phone and streets it's hard to tell if they went to school or not.

It does happen a lot, and it just lessens the pool of people that can compete with me for a job.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Why become a physician?http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/04/what_obamacare_will_cost_docto .html

[Dr Caleb]

I can't wait till the days when the colon cancer mortality rate is 184% higher like it is in Canada and the waiting list for an appointment is twice as long, we have 1/3 the CT scanners and 1/4 the MRIs and we think, hey our system is pretty good.

Odd. When Googling that 184% figure, it comes out as 'prostate cancer' not colorectal cancer. That leads me to be suspicious.

The only figure I can find is 66% for 5 year mortality on stage 4 colorectal cancer.

http://news-political.com/2009/08/13/canadian-colorectal-cancer-death-rate-projected-to-be-66-greater-than-united-states/

But that is for Stage 4 Colorectal cancer. In other stages, the rates are the same.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/bsolc/olc-cel/olc-cel?lang=eng&catno=84-601-X
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-226-x/82-226-x2009001-eng.htm

And the number of CT and MRI machines is irrelevant, if they are going unused. Like I said, I called 911, I had an MRI and a CAT scan within 4 hours of calling 911. Especially since we have 1/10th the population of the US. No lines, no waiting.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Dr. Caleb,

I was wondering how your medical records are handled in the medical system there if it was going to be comparable to what is to be in our newly passed Healthcare bill.In the bill we have been debating that was recently passed here everyones medical records are no longer held confidential between you and your doctor. They are available to panels of bureacrats in Washington to make medical decisions based on charts and numbers. This is another big objection with citizens here as we have been exposed to what happens when records and files are exposed to bureacrats. When Bill Clinton was in office hundreds of FBI files were found not at FBI headquarters but in the White House. So any politician or official has access to your records and confidentiality to threaten or coerce you into doing what they want. I am sure this would not happen in Canada but we have a bunch of unsavory politicians down here.

[FordNut]

And guess what .... it ain't gonna stop there either. This is gonna be a $2 Trillion boondoggle by the time it is fully implemented. CBO knew that it had some flakey assumptions going into the estimate; but they were "coerced" into making highly optimistic forecasts. These things are never as optimistic as the best case assumptions. I would have settled for a middle of the road set of assumptions to get a more accurate picture. Of course, that course of action would not have served the administrations goals.

It'll be way worse than $2 Trillion. Keep in mind the plan is to increase the taxes for 10 years to pay for 6 years of service. And that's for the $1.3 Trillion price tag.

[FordNut]

All these facts and or points Dr. Caleb is going over have already been made and it does not matter as we the United States still do not want to be like Canada. They have a GST TAX( VAT) to help pay for this type medicine.We do not have that until now they pass this bill and Congress says we have to have one also to pay for the new health bill.That is just one of many taxes we will endure to pay for socialized medicine.
Canada has 34 million people the US has 300 million, a lot of difference. What may work for Canada very well may not work for us. I am sure Canada has politicians that are of the utmost honesty and character and will do what they are suppose to with the money. Unfortunately our politicians do not fit that criteria and from all the other programs and agencys whatever they touch turns sour and it ends up costing 40 times the original estimate. Social Security is broke this year. The U. S. is broke.
It is useless to compare Canada with us. Different situation and set of circumstances.

The comparison is kind of like when the Government was suggesting we could convert to ethanol instead of gasoline, justifying it with Brazil as an example. But the comparison isn't valid because the entire country of Brazil has less cars than California and the country's population is a small fraction of ours. Apples and oranges.

[FordNut]

I agree but only to a point.

I don't want to pay for the VA benefits, S.Security, or Medicare/ Aid.

When those "unconstitutional" programs get repealed, I will be the first one to champion getting this one repealed too.

I took a break from this thread for a while hoping that clearing my mind would help me understand how those receiving benefits from Socialist programs (unconstitutional) and can be so against "other" Socialist programs.

I cannot understand how those receiving unemployment checks, S.S., Medicare/ Aid can speak against "this" program WHILE COLLECTING BENEFITS FROM SOCIALIST PROGRAMS.

Just be honest and say, I don't like this program bc it "may" not help me. I want Socialist programs so long as they help/ benefit me. If they help others, they are no good. In the mean time, I would like to keep my Socialist programs active.

It's all like one big joke and I am shocked that anyone takes these arguments seriously.

Maybe those against this program can at the VERY LEAST PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH?

If I had an option to not pay into the social security and unemployment insurance programs, I would not participate. But since I don't have a choice I will draw back out all I can get.

[Joe Walsh]

And guess what .... it ain't gonna stop there either. This is gonna be a $2 Trillion boondoggle by the time it is fully implemented. CBO knew that it had some flakey assumptions going into the estimate; but they were "coerced" into making highly optimistic forecasts. These things are never as optimistic as the best case assumptions. I would have settled for a middle of the road set of assumptions to get a more accurate picture. Of course, that course of action would not have served the administrations goals.

The government always "paints the rosiest picture" possible..because anything even close to reality would cause everyone to say:
"No Effin way!"

BTW: The Federal government also uses a static analysis.
They assume that everything and everybody's actions will stay the same after a new law is enacted....
WRONG!
People will adapt their behaviors to avoid paying more and/or pay the least amount possible.
Then the government admits later...."OOPS! We didn't see this happening, but because it has.....
we are forced to raise taxes much higher than we originally projected!"....:o

BOHICA!

[Phrog_gunner]

Newt Gingrich said this morning on Fox News that last year the Dems were holding meetings about confiscating everyone's IRA/401k so they could give it back out to us in a responsible manner. That's some change you can believe in.

[CBT]

Newt Gingrich said this morning on Fox News that last year the Dems were holding meetings about confiscating everyone's IRA/401k so they could give it back out to us in a responsible manner. That's some change you can believe in.
They'll get mine when they pry it out of my cold dead hands!!!!! Oh, wait. I thought that said NRA. Carry on.

[Shora]

If I had an option to not pay into the social security and unemployment insurance programs, I would not participate. But since I don't have a choice I will draw back out all I can get.

There we go. That is exactly how it's supposed to be.

You, like me, AND ALL OTHERS that I know don't want to pay into these programs. However, many sure are happy to have them available in their time of need.

How many dumba$$e$ bitched and complained about paying S.Security and Medicare/ Aid all their lives? I am willing to bet most if not all.

Only a few, however, did well enough in life to NOT depend on those very Socialist programs when they got old or hit hard times.

Sure, they bitched and wined OVER AND OVER, but jumped at "cashing in" soon as they were eligible for those socialist programs.

Same with health care. This thread began with folks saying they would rather go to jail than pay for health care.

If it were up to me, I would most certainly allow ANYONE to opt out of buying health care, but DON'T EVEN TRY TO HIT UP AN EMERGANCY ROOM UNLESS YOU HAVE THE FUNDS TO PAY YOUR OWN WAY.

Got ill unexpectedly and don't have insurance and officially opted out of buying into "the health care plan"? GO F YOURSELF. "I" don't want your fees passed on to me. However, most are too dumb to know that they NEED these programs. Face it, most folks just don't get to the financial point were they won't depend on these programs at one point.

How many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? How many are just a few paychecks away from blowing through all their savings? How many don't have jack s h ! t for savings and are in debt living off credit (while they still can)?

You expect them to pay their own way of a health crisis? Even just a few days in the hospital can easily cost $30-$100K+.

How many collecting S.Security, Medicare/ Aid, and Unemployment bitched about it? However, I have yet to meet one who refuses to "cash in" though.

[FordNut]

There we go. That is exactly how it's supposed to be.

You, like me, AND ALL OTHERS that I know don't want to pay into these programs. However, many sure are happy to have them available in their time of need.

.

No, I'm not happy to draw out of it. If I hadn't been ***** for years to pay into it I wouldn't draw. Let me opt out and then I'll take care of myself when I'm unemployed or retired.

Your arguments are kind of like the liberal media calling the republicans hypocrites because they oppose the spending plans then try to get the money from them spent in their own states. That's just BS. If you're going to FORCE me to spend money I don't want to spend, then I'm going to try and spend as much of it as possible on myself instead of letting you send it to somebody else.

[CBT]

It seems no one likes the idea of having more money taken away from thier pay, even tho our government says it is not going to happen. I do not believe them.

[boatmangc]

Senator Harry Reid Buys a Car
Sen. Reid goes to a local GM dealer in Washington, D.C. with the intention of buying a brand new vehicle. Harry looks around and finds one he likes. After going back and forth with the salesman, Harry settles on a price of $45,000. Harry and the salesman go back to the office to complete the paperwork. Harry works out a 4-year payment plan, and signs on the bottom line. The salesman shakes Harry's hand and says, "Thanks Senator Reid, the car will be ready for pickup in 4 years."Harry says, "What are you talking about? Where are the keys to my new car?"The salesman replies, "No, you don't understand Senator. You make payments for 4 years... THEN we give you the car. You know, just like your health plan".Harry, with a choking voice, says to the salesman, "But that's not fair".
And I say without any doubt or embarrassment: NO SH_T!

[Shora]

No, I'm not happy to draw out of it. If I hadn't been ***** for years to pay into it I wouldn't draw. Let me opt out and then I'll take care of myself when I'm unemployed or retired.

Your arguments are kind of like the liberal media calling the republicans hypocrites because they oppose the spending plans then try to get the money from them spent in their own states. That's just BS. If you're going to FORCE me to spend money I don't want to spend, then I'm going to try and spend as much of it as possible on myself instead of letting you send it to somebody else.

"You" wouldn't draw out of it if you had the option of drawing out. I am happy to heard that you are one of the few doing so very well.

I am sorry you saw my comments directed towards "you" specifically. They were meant to be more general.

Now in general, do you feel that "most" would have faired off well enough to not depend on S.Security, Medicare, Unemployment Benefits if they didn't pay into it?

I think we know the answer is a clearly NO.

Now, what do you suppose we should do with all these people who had the option of not paying into the system (s. security/ medicare) and then need it at a later age?

This is the problem with health care. These people have the "option" of not buying any health care plan or paying into a system when employed, yet they still use our ER for care that they cannot afford.

Why don't they have your "money and character" to not draw out of a system they didn't pay into?

Why haven't they been deciding to suffer in the streets rather than use an ER without being able to pay for it and having their bills passed on to someone else?

[Shora]

Your arguments are kind of like the liberal media calling the republicans hypocrites because they oppose the spending plans then try to get the money from them spent in their own states. That's just BS.

How many of the Republicans who voted against the "spending plans" and gave speeches about how they wouldn't create a single job, now fight for the money and worse GIVE (local)SPEECHES ABOUT HOW MANY "JOBS" IT CREATES?

[Joe Walsh]

If the government had created 'forced individual savings accounts' instead of the Social Security system, wouldn't we all be in a MUCH better financial position right now?
Everyone would have an interest bearing 'social security' savings account that had their own money in it!
AND it had actually grown more than the amount that had been contributed!
WOW! What an idea!
Instead, the government started the Social Security System which, we all know, is a shell game that is about to crumble when all the baby boomers start to retire.
The Healthcare system will be another Social Security System.

It all boils down to the government "knowing whats best for us and knowing how to run things better than us".
They grab all the power, all the money...and then, in an incredibly inefficient manner, run the whole system into the ground.

[CBT]

If the government had created 'forced individual savings accounts' instead of the Social Security system, wouldn't we all be in a MUCH better financial position right now?
Everyone would have an interest bearing 'social security' savings account that had their own money in it! AND it had actually grown more than the amount that had been contributed!
WOW! What an idea!
Instead, the government started the Social Security System which, we all know, is a shell game that is about to crumble when all the baby boomers start to retire.
The Healthcare system will be another Social Security System.

It all boils down to the government "knowing whats best for us and knowing how to run things better than us".
They grab all the power and all the moneyand then, in an incredibly inefficient manner, run the whole system into the ground.

Not the whole system. Remember, they get to vote themselves pay raises, so THAT part seems to be working fairly freakin' well!

[SC Cheesehead]

If the government had created 'forced individual savings accounts' instead of the Social Security system, wouldn't we all be in a MUCH better financial position right now?
Everyone would have an interest bearing 'social security' savings account that had their own money in it! AND it had actually grown more than the amount that had been contributed!
WOW! What an idea!
Instead, the government started the Social Security System which, we all know, is a shell game that is about to crumble when all the baby boomers start to retire.
The Healthcare system will be another Social Security System.

It all boils down to the government "knowing whats best for us and knowing how to run things better than us".
They grab all the power and all the money and then, in an incredibly inefficient manner, run the whole system into the ground.

Key point, Joe, is THEIR OWN MONEY. Right now, we're paying in, but there are no guarantees that we'll see a dime of any of that money. W proposed manadatory personal retirement accounts as an alternative to SS, and was vilified for the suggestion; why?

If it was YOUR account, then the government couldn't get THEIR hands on it.

[Phrog_gunner]

If it was YOUR account, then the government couldn't get THEIR hands on it.

And then they can't give YOUR money away to someone who didn't save their own money.

[CBT]

And then they can't give YOUR money away to someone who didn't save their own money.

It reminds of the story about the ants and the grasshopper.

[Phrog_gunner]

It reminds of the story about the ants and the grasshopper.

What story is that?

[CBT]

What story is that?

I don't remember, I drank alot in grade school.

[Joe Walsh]

I don't remember, I drank alot in grade school.

LOL!,

I drank Elmers glue and sniffed the purple 'ditto machine' copies*!

*I'm showing my age...anyone remember that great smelling solvent that they used for the old 'ditto' machines?
I'd always volunteer to go down to the school's office and pick up the dittos for that day's class....
I was high as a kite by the time I got back to the classroom!

[CBT]

LMAO! You're the reason kids can't run with scissors! :lol:
LOL!,

I drank Elmers glue and sniffed the purple 'ditto machine' copies*!

*I'm showing my age...anyone remember that great smelling solvent that they used for the old 'ditto' machines?
I'd always volunteer to go down to the school's office and pick up the dittos for that day's class....
I was high as a kite by the time I got back to the classroom!

[Phrog_gunner]

DAMMIT, I remember the ditto machine. But I don't really want to admit it if it puts me in with you ol fogeys.

[Joe Walsh]

DAMMIT, I remember the ditto machine. But I don't really want to admit it if it puts me in with you ol fogeys.

Just say that you sniffed the dittos and you're cool!

:2thumbs:

Sorry for the thread HIJACK!

[Phrog_gunner]

Sorry for the thread HIJACK!

No you aren't :beer:

[CBT]

DAMMIT, I remember the ditto machine. But I don't really want to admit it if it puts me in with you ol fogeys.
I'm 39 but I have no idea what it is. I do, however, remember actual chalkboards, before dry-erase markers and boards became popular. I got in trouble at school once (a day for 14 years) and my teacher made me step outside the classroom and dust the erasers. The emergency exit door, once you stepped out, put you right in front of the school, about 15 feet down from the main entrance. I put SUCK IT in big dusty white letters on the front of the school before a bus driver ran to the principals office and all hell broke loose. I never had to dust erasers again.

[SC Cheesehead]

I'm 39 but I have no idea what it is. I do, however, remember actual chalkboards, before dry-erase markers and boards became popular. I got in trouble at school once (a day for 14 years) and my teacher made me step outside the classroom and dust the erasers. The emergency exit door, once you stepped out, put you right in front of the school, about 15 feet down from the main entrance. I put SUCK IT in big dusty white letters on the front of the school before a bus driver ran to the principals office and all hell broke loose. I never had to dust erasers again.

http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:c6VQ4LjIkPsKdM::2 .bp.blogspot.com/_ky0e86Saiag/SxIdPys2H8I/AAAAAAAAAMc/v1FllYFLJ2w/s1600/Ditto%252Bmachine.jpg&h=88&w=166&usg=__C6FR04n9W3LXMKQcNJ5BEFQ3 Zfo= (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ky0e86Saiag/SxIdPys2H8I/AAAAAAAAAMc/v1FllYFLJ2w/s1600/Ditto%2Bmachine.jpg&imgrefurl=http://solveris1.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-collaborative-tools-for-post-email.html&h=480&w=910&sz=29&tbnid=c6VQ4LjIkPsKdM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=147&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dditto%2Bmachine%2 Bpictures&hl=en&usg=__jYXJB6Doqi1OxgpR1HQCwvlo J78=&ei=gpy8S7yAAsT68Abw2uW7CA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=2&ct=image&ved=0CAgQ9QEwAQ)

"...Ditto machines were commonly used in schools, and the students believed that sniffing the solvent fumes from a freshly copied sheet would provide a high—a reasonable assumption given the instances and effectiveness of substance sniffing. My teacher says that the kids would spend the five minutes after receiving a new sheet just smelling it..."

And you wonder why us old guys act the way we do...:cool4:

[CBT]

http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:c6VQ4LjIkPsKdM::2 .bp.blogspot.com/_ky0e86Saiag/SxIdPys2H8I/AAAAAAAAAMc/v1FllYFLJ2w/s1600/Ditto%252Bmachine.jpg&h=88&w=166&usg=__C6FR04n9W3LXMKQcNJ5BEFQ3 Zfo= (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ky0e86Saiag/SxIdPys2H8I/AAAAAAAAAMc/v1FllYFLJ2w/s1600/Ditto%2Bmachine.jpg&imgrefurl=http://solveris1.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-collaborative-tools-for-post-email.html&h=480&w=910&sz=29&tbnid=c6VQ4LjIkPsKdM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=147&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dditto%2Bmachine%2 Bpictures&hl=en&usg=__jYXJB6Doqi1OxgpR1HQCwvlo J78=&ei=gpy8S7yAAsT68Abw2uW7CA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=2&ct=image&ved=0CAgQ9QEwAQ)

"...Ditto machines were commonly used in schools, and the students believed that sniffing the solvent fumes from a freshly copied sheet would provide a high—a reasonable assumption given the instances and effectiveness of substance sniffing. My teacher says that the kids would spend the five minutes after receiving a new sheet just smelling it..."

And you wonder why us old guys act the way we do...:cool4:

That's why health care is mandatory now! Because of Ditto sniffers!:mad:

[LIGHTNIN1]

Newt Gingrich said this morning on Fox News that last year the Dems were holding meetings about confiscating everyone's IRA/401k so they could give it back out to us in a responsible manner. That's some change you can believe in.

You are correct. They did hold meetings on this. A genius professor came up with the idea although it sounds like it came directly from the Obama, Pelosi Reid committee. They are after every penney we have. what would happen is tax increases in reverse. They would first decide you could get by on $ 1000 per month. Later that figure would go down to $800, then $600 till they decide that they need all of it. All these programs, Social Security, Medicare,Healthcare are about one thing,controlling the population and getting as much money out of you as possible. These people do not care about us.

[Joe Walsh]

For you 'youngins'....last HIJACK...I promise!

DITTO machine history:
The spirit duplicator was invented in 1923 by Wilhelm Ritzerfeld. The best-known manufacturer in the United States was Ditto Corporation of Illinois, hence that name.

The thermofax machine was introduced by 3M in the late 1960s and could make a spirit master from an ordinary typewritten or handwritten sheet. The resulting print quality was very poor but the machines were popular because of their convenience.

Spirit duplicator technology gradually fell into disuse starting in the 1970s after the availability of low-cost, high-volume xerographic copiers; by the mid 1990s, the use of the technology was rare. The technology remains useful where electrical power is unavailable or where the only remaining originals of legacy documents requiring duplication are in "spirit master" form.

Operation:
The duplicator used two-ply "spirit masters" or "ditto masters". The first sheet could be typed, drawn, or written upon. The second sheet was coated with a layer of wax that had been impregnated with one of a variety of colorants. The pressure of writing or typing on the top sheet transferred colored wax to its back side, producing a mirror image of the desired marks. (This acted like a reverse of carbon paper.) The two sheets were then separated, and the first sheet was fastened onto the drum of the (manual or electrical) machine, with the waxed side out.

There is no ink used in spirit duplication. As the paper moves through the printer, the solvent is spread across each sheet by an absorbent wick. When the solvent-impregnated paper comes into contact with the waxed original, it dissolves just enough of the pigmented wax to print the image onto the sheet as it goes under the printing drum.

Colors:
The usual wax color was aniline purple, a cheap, durable pigment that provided good contrast, but ditto masters were also manufactured in red, green, blue, black, and the hard-to-find orange, yellow, and brown. All except black reproduced in pastel shades: pink, mint, sky blue, etc. Ditto had the useful ability to print multiple colors in a single pass, which made it popular with cartoonists. Multi-colored designs could be made by swapping out the waxed second sheets; for instance, shading in only the red portion of an illustration while the top sheet was positioned over a red-waxed second sheet. This was possible because the pungent-smelling duplicating fluid (typically a 50/50 mix of isopropanol and methanol) was not ink, but a clear solvent.

Smell:
The aroma of pages fresh off the Ditto machine combined with the cool touch from the evaporating alcohol was a memorable feature of school life for those who attended in the ditto machine era. A pop culture reference to this is to be found in the film Fast Times At Ridgemont High. At one point a teacher hands out a dittoed exam paper and every student in the class immediately lifts it to his or her nose and inhales.

[CBT]

(I'm not afeared to de-rail my own threadz :))
Does anyone know what the most expensive liquid the average person can buy is?

[LIGHTNIN1]

(I'm not afeared to de-rail my own threadz :))
Does anyone know what the most expensive liquid the average person can buy is?

Perfume for your Fiancee. The perfume becomes expensive at the time of the divorce.

[Bluerauder]

(I'm not afeared to de-rail my own threadz :))
Does anyone know what the most expensive liquid the average person can buy is?

Perfume or Printer Ink both run about $5000 -$ 7500 per gallon.

[CBT]

Perfume for your Fiancee. The perfume becomes expensive at the time of the divorce.
lol, that might be close

[Ozark Marauder]

The Macallan Scotch Whiskey 1926 Fine and Rare: $75,000

A single 750ml bottle contains .198 gallons. Therefore you'd need 5.1 bottles to make a gallon.

So.............$382,500.00 a gallon

oops sorry you said average person........guess it's printer ink

[CBT]

It is, in fact, printers ink. Right around 10 grand a gallon.

[Paul T. Casey]

(I'm not afeared to de-rail my own threadz :))
Does anyone know what the most expensive liquid the average person can buy is?

Management sweat. So little of it exists.