Health Care, Obama.....

[SC Cheesehead]

......................
20481
c.y.c.b.i....

[kernie]

What's considered an incredible amount? What if health insurance is a benefit provided by your employer? Was that factored into your comment? As for getting "the screws put to you" on what assumption is that based? What constitues a "screwing?"

I can guar-en-dam-tee you that the recently passed healthcare "reform" legislation is going to exacerbate rather than reduce the stress associated with health care.

One thing you need to understand kernie, this whole Obamanation doesn't have anything to do with improving health care, it's all about increasing government control over its citizens.

Control = power. When it comes right down to it, politicians don't give a rat's azz about the state of healthcare, the focus is on aquiring and maintaining power, the whole healthcare issue is nothing more than a red herring to accomplish that power grab.
Thanks for the reasonable reply SC,

"What is consitered an incredible amount?" 1200 bucks a month for the average family IS an incredible amount in my mind, if you get it through work, great, still costs you one way or the other.

"What constitutes a screwing?" Insurance companies here have much the same mindset as stateside, plain and simple, get out of paying anyway you can. Everyone myself included has stories about this, how anyone could possibly defend them, i dunno. When it comes to home or auto insurance i go with a large deductable for lower premiums and cause i dont want to deal with them, i'm so happy they dont have a finger on my pulse!

Stress, well in ALL other western countries who ALL have universal healthcare there is no stress assosiated with healthcare, no pre-existing conditions, even the homeless are cared for, are you telling me the US CANT do what everyone else does?

I have "howard stern on demand", on the "fan favorite" section at least here they have a contest called "stuck on you", they had 10 contestants vying for 20 grand if they can stay handcuffed to "jeff the drunk" for 4 days, funny as hell. They chose a woman with a sob story, her hubby has a heart condition and they cant afford to go to the doctor. You would have to see it to believe it, this "jeff the drunk" must be the most vile person on the planet but she was saving her hubby in her mind, that my friend is stress.

In the Michael Moore film "sicko" {i know MM is a favorite target of the right wingers} a guy in th US, lets call him stubby, loses two fingers, he is told the first finger will cost you 12 grand to re-attach, the secomd one 60 grand, so he could only afford the first finger to be re-attached, the canadian guy, here in london lost all 4 fingers, yup all re-attached without question, that my friend is stress.

Anyway, enough from me, have a good day. :beer:

[FordNut]

Since health care is so much worse here than it is in the rest of the socialized world, it would seem that the illegal immigrants would bypass America and rush to Canada. Maybe they just don't get it.

[kernie]

Since health care is so much worse here than it is in the rest of the socialized world, it would seem that the illegal immigrants would bypass America and rush to Canada. Maybe they just don't get it.
Well you have to SHOW you are canadian to get free care, many desperate americans try that trick, mostly doesn't work. Illegals are not hired here either for the most part, why do they thrive down there?

:beer:

[FordNut]

So if someone can't prove they're Canadian they get turned away?

[kernie]

So if someone can't prove they're Canadian they get turned away?
Well i believe so, mind you if you are a visitor and are involved in a car accident they dont just let you die, i cant really tell you for sure, i'm no expert. There is photo I.D. medical cards so if you are a "feriner", he he, and your looking for cancer care, yes you will not get it.

Your friend, believe it or not,

kernie:beer:

[FordNut]

Well i believe so, mind you if you are a visitor and are involved in a car accident they dont just let you die, i cant really tell you for sure, i'm no expert. There is photo I.D. medical cards so if you are a "feriner", he he, and your looking for cancer care, yes you will not get it.

Your friend, believe it or not,

kernie:beer:

Maybe that's what we ought to do, if illegals go to the ER for medical treatment and don't have their papers just kick them to the curb...

in Mexico (or wherever "home" is).

[kernie]

Maybe that's what we ought to do, if illegals go to the ER for medical treatment and don't have their papers just kick them to the curb...

in Mexico (or wherever "home" is).
Hey if someone crosses your border illegally they lose all rights, period, compassion for human life means you treat them to save thier life and not "turn off the fountains in the desert", we really are not that far apart in thinking, believe it or not.

Your friend, kernie.

[SC Cheesehead]

Thanks for the reasonable reply SC,

"What is consitered an incredible amount?" 1200 bucks a month for the average family IS an incredible amount in my mind, if you get it through work, great, still costs you one way or the other.

"What constitutes a screwing?" Insurance companies here have much the same mindset as stateside, plain and simple, get out of paying anyway you can. Everyone myself included has stories about this, how anyone could possibly defend them, i dunno. When it comes to home or auto insurance i go with a large deductable for lower premiums and cause i dont want to deal with them, i'm so happy they dont have a finger on my pulse!

Stress, well in ALL other western countries who ALL have universal healthcare there is no stress assosiated with healthcare, no pre-existing conditions, even the homeless are cared for, are you telling me the US CANT do what everyone else does?

I have "howard stern on demand", on the "fan favorite" section at least here they have a contest called "stuck on you", they had 10 contestants vying for 20 grand if they can stay handcuffed to "jeff the drunk" for 4 days, funny as hell. They chose a woman with a sob story, her hubby has a heart condition and they cant afford to go to the doctor. You would have to see it to believe it, this "jeff the drunk" must be the most vile person on the planet but she was saving her hubby in her mind, that my friend is stress.

In the Michael Moore film "sicko" {i know MM is a favorite target of the right wingers} a guy in th US, lets call him stubby, loses two fingers, he is told the first finger will cost you 12 grand to re-attach, the secomd one 60 grand, so he could only afford the first finger to be re-attached, the canadian guy, here in london lost all 4 fingers, yup all re-attached without question, that my friend is stress.

Anyway, enough from me, have a good day. :beer:
I don't pay $1,200 a month now, and never have. What's included in that coverage, and how was it obtained, I wonder.

Not defending, but on the other hand, they are a business, and SHOULD be questioning the bills they are paying, if they're not, well, one can only ponder the potential fraud and waste being paid for.

Please tell that "no stress" line to my two dead Canadian cousins who passed away due to waiting lists associated with treatments, or the unfortunate dialysis patients in St. John, NB who are no longer able to obtain weekly dialysis in St. John, but must now drive 64 miles to Fredricton once or twice weekly to receive treatments, this due to cutbacks enacted in provincial healthcare services while I was on assignment up there last year. Yup, we should all be so lucky.

No, I'm telling you that we don't WANT to do what everyone else is doing, we can't afford it, and it doesn't look like you folks can either:

"TORONTO, ON—Provincial spending on health care continues to grow faster than provincial revenues, with six out of 10 provinces projected to be spending half of all available revenue on health care by 2034, according to a new report from the Fraser Institute, one of Canada’s leading economic think-tanks.
Ontario and New Brunswick face the biggest crunch, where health expenditures are on pace to consume half of total provincial revenues by 2014 or earlier...'Unless provincial governments can devise a better way to finance health care, they will be forced to either hike taxes, expand rationing of medical goods and services, or make extensive cut backs in other government programs'.”
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/7042.aspx (http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/7042.aspx)
Do you really believe that if she took her husband to a hospital due to his heart condition down here in the states that he would be denied health care? Once again, we've got a situation where someone is twisting "can't afford insurance" with "won't receive health care."

Sorry, I catagorically reject ANTHING set forward by Michael Moore, that Socialist :censor: would love nothing more than to see the downfall of this country. If you've got to resort to using him for examples, you've totally discredited yourself.

[FordNut]

"TORONTO, ON—Provincial spending on health care continues to grow faster than provincial revenues, with six out of 10 provinces projected to be spending half of all available revenue on health care by 2034, according to a new report from the Fraser Institute, one of Canada’s leading economic think-tanks.
Ontario and New Brunswick face the biggest crunch, where health expenditures are on pace to consume half of total provincial revenues by 2014 or earlier...'Unless provincial governments can devise a better way to finance health care, they will be forced to either hike taxes, expand rationing of medical goods and services, or make extensive cut backs in other government programs'.”
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/7042.aspx (http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/7042.aspx)


There is no rationing...

[SC Cheesehead]

There is no rationing...

Yeah, I got a couple (dead) cousins that would argue that...

[teamrope]

Hey if someone crosses your border illegally they lose all rights, period, compassion for human life means you treat them to save thier life and not "turn off the fountains in the desert", we really are not that far apart in thinking, believe it or not.

Your friend, kernie.

Pretty sad when someone from another country "gets" what the idiots in D.C. dont.

[kernie]

Yeah, I got a couple (dead) cousins that would argue that...
Hmm, news to me that folks are dying on waiting lists, perhaps a couple, funny that both were your cousins. Ya, the insurance companies are angels, they never are unreasonable...my mistake. Perhaps if we just double our spending per capita to raise it to US levels...:shake:

sheesh

Obviously "funny that both were your cousins", was not meant funny ha ha, but funny strange, draaaaama, keep repeating it...

[SC Cheesehead]

Hmm, news to me that folks are dying on waiting lists, perhaps a couple, funny that both were your cousins. Ya, the insurance companies are angels, they never are unreasonable...my mistake. Perhaps if we just double our spending per capita to raise it to US levels...:shake:

sheesh

Yeah, real funny about my cousins, we have a big laugh about it every time it comes up...

Never said insurance companies were angels, but they're not 100% bad guys, either. The times I've had to file claims they did all right by me.

What the heck does raising your spending have to do with this discussion? Missing the point you're trying to make here. Is it that you guys would have better health care if you spent as much as the US does? Or is it that we could cut our spending in half and have...what?

Obamacare is projected to increase our health care costs by billions of dollars over the next decade while adding layers of bureaucracy, increasing taxes with no guarantees that overall quality of care will improve. This is something we should welcome with open arms?

Sheesh.

[SC Cheesehead]

As I was saying above. ^^^^^^

"Support for repeal of the new national health care plan has jumped to its highest level ever. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 63% of U.S. voters now favor repeal of the plan passed by congressional Democrats and signed into law by President Obama in March...
Sixty-three percent (63%) of all voters expect the health care plan to increase the federal deficit. Just 12% expect the bill to push the deficit down, while 13% say it will have no impact.
Fifty-five percent (55%) say the plan will make the quality of health care in the country worse. Twenty percent (20%) expect it to improve the quality of health care, and 18% think quality will stay about the same.
Fifty-five percent (55%) also expect the health care plan to drive up the cost of health care rather than achieve its stated goal of causing those costs to go down. Only 18% believe health care costs will indeed go down because of the plan’s passage. Another 16% expect costs to stay about the same."

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/health_care_law

[Joe Walsh]

Jack Webb schools Obama on Healthcare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRYAqekvj4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4r6YCUtxfs

[LIGHTNIN1]

What is your state doing about Obamacare? Here the state legislature passed a bill to opt out of it and the Democratic governer vetoed it. The legislature tried to over ride the veto but failed by 5 votes, saved by his own party. So the legislature comes back, by passes him with a bill so we the people can vote on it in November. It should pass overwhelmingly. Then what will the Feds do? Send troops to every house?

[FordNut]

BHO is on the campaign trail again, still trying to sell us on healthcare reform.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/health/policy/07campaign.html

[LIGHTNIN1]

BHO is on the campaign trail again, still trying to sell us on healthcare reform.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/health/policy/07campaign.html

They can blow all of our money they want, but 70% of the people know it is a scam. Let the nonsense begin.:shake:

[Joe Walsh]

Obama has vowed to cut $100 million from our Federal Budget.

This explains it quite well....smart college student shows us how scary our budget situation is:

http://www.wimp.com/budgetcuts/

I can't wait until this Healthcare Bill adds to the mandatory Federal spending!

[blackhueys]

Ok sitting here watching CNN news and what do I hear? Obama is comparing the BP spill to 9/11 really wow just wow you should see the lady they are interviewing she lost her son so you can imagine what that's like thank god I did not vote for obama!!!

[Egon Spengler]

9/11? You can't compare the two in any way! Eleven lives lost in comparison to over 2,000? A terrorist attack as opposed to an incident. They are both very serious and not to be taken lightly at all, but they are nothing to be compared...

I didn't vote for him either...

[Motorhead350]

Seems like we have more political threads than car threads. This site is getting lame.

[Egon Spengler]

Seems like we have more political threads than car threads. This site is getting lame.
Maybe you should go to a different forum then... :P

[blackhueys]

I though this was where to put this as almost everything else on here IS auto related. Not to bust your chops but check the tech section out I think there is some auto stuff there not sure though. LOL

[ctrlraven]

Seems like we have more political threads than car threads. This site is getting lame.

Peace love and chicken grease then.

Of course the OP could of posted this in the Lounge which would be the right section for it. lol

[FordNut]

This site is getting lame.
Maybe it's time for a boycott.

[Haggis]

Seems like we have more political threads than car threads. This site is getting lame.

Maybe it is you getting lame, it is your choice to read a thread.

[Egon Spengler]

Maybe it's time for a boycott.
Just don't do a sit in!!!!

[LIGHTNIN1]

9/11? You can't compare the two in any way! Eleven lives lost in comparison to over 2,000? A terrorist attack as opposed to an incident. They are both very serious and not to be taken lightly at all, but they are nothing to be compared...

I didn't vote for him either...

I heard it. This guy has no respect for anyone or anything. Remember not going to Arlington? Remember going on the ALL great worldwide apology tour?:mad2:

[blackrauder]

I find it so funny that we have had a President for 8 Years Bush that :censor: up the economy throughout his whole term, but the next President Obama is being put down for trying to fix things yeah he compared 9/11 and the oil spill but it wasnt to compare it to the death toll of 9/11, but to compare how long it took us to recover from it. Bush always gave Millions and Millions to other countries, but no one remembers that, his own administration collected Millions from oil companies. Maybe if he was on his job maybe there would have been a plan the oil spill, 4.00 gas is something I dont miss. Lets give the man a chance, 8 years of mistakes and misery cant be fixed in one year.

AND NO THIS ISNT TO START ANYTHING SO PLEASE DONT GO THERE!!!

[swordfish]

If you don't understand it by now your never going too!
http://newzar.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/hear-see-speak-no-evil1.jpg?w=300&h=225

[MM03MOK]

Merged threads. Don't need yet another thread started on politics.

[PonyUP]

I will just say this, what no one seems to remember is that CLinton imposed regulation on the oil companies that included drilling restrictions as well as mandating safety valves, and back up valves. Those restrictions were lifted in 2001 by an administration that was very oil friendly. Now we have a mess, and everyone is blaming President Obama. Follow that by the cap being put on oil companies of $75 million in responsibility for any spill, it makes fiscal sense for the companies to take safety risks. This mess is not a politicians fault, it is BP's fault. President Obama has reacted as poorly as President Bush did with Katrina which leaves us to one conclusion, all Politicians suck. Republicans are bought and paid for by oil and banks, Democrats are bought and paid for by unions and the AFLCIO, which means they are all corrupt. Until there is campaign finance reform to keep the lobbyiusts out (The Christian right, the banking lobby, the AFL, and the NRA to name a few) you will never be able to fix government.
The Republican answer to everything-Cut Taxes
The Democratic answer to everything-Spend money

They both suck, bring back Franklin Roosevelt, clone him and lets get it back on track

[dirtybird82]

Shouldn't this thread be closed by now? The whole Politics thing...:shake:

[Haggis]

I will just say this, what no one seems to remember is that CLinton imposed regulation on the oil companies that included drilling restrictions as well as mandating safety valves, and back up valves. Those restrictions were lifted in 2001 by an administration that was very oil friendly. Now we have a mess, and everyone is blaming President Obama. Follow that by the cap being put on oil companies of $75 million in responsibility for any spill, it makes fiscal sense for the companies to take safety risks. This mess is not a politicians fault, it is BP's fault. President Obama has reacted as poorly as President Bush did with Katrina which leaves us to one conclusion, all Politicians suck. Republicans are bought and paid for by oil and banks, Democrats are bought and paid for by unions and the AFLCIO, which means they are all corrupt. Until there is campaign finance reform to keep the lobbyiusts out (The Christian right, the banking lobby, the AFL, and the NRA to name a few) you will never be able to fix government.
The Republican answer to everything-Cut Taxes
The Democratic answer to everything-Spend money

They both suck, bring back Franklin Roosevelt, clone him and lets get it back on track

BP was one of the major contributors to the Obama campaign.

FDR one of the worst Presidents in US history.

[LIGHTNIN1]

BP was one of the major contributors to the Obama campaign.

FDR one of the worst Presidents in US history.

Exactly. Obama is a FDR clone. Barney Frank said it himself when Obama was elected.

[FordNut]

Congress is at it again. Pelosi is holding up the House voting on the Senate's passing of a temporary reprieve for the 21% reimbursement cuts for Medicare. So more and more healthcare providers will drop Medicare patients because they can't rely on the Government to effectively run their current gov't health care plan. And they expect us to believe they can effectively run healthcare for all of us?

We taxpayers are still paying for part of the costs of O's campaign to convince us that we like it, too.

[teamrope]

Congress is at it again. Pelosi is holding up the House voting on the Senate's passing of a temporary reprieve for the 21% reimbursement cuts for Medicare. So more and more healthcare providers will drop Medicare patients because they can't rely on the Government to effectively run their current gov't health care plan. And they expect us to believe they can effectively run healthcare for all of us?

We taxpayers are still paying for part of the costs of O's campaign to convince us that we like it, too.

He'll be a one term wonder.

[FordNut]

I guess we'll get to see how much damage can be done in one term...

They finally passed the medicare reimbursement bill, but since we have a new healthcare reform program why is congress having to continue to fix it? They could have actually fixed this and a few other healthcare problems instead of creating a huge, expensive government takeover that the majority of Americans still don't like.

[Joe Walsh]

The Republican answer to everything-Cut Taxes

The Democratic answer to everything-Spend money

They both suck, bring back Franklin Roosevelt, clone him and lets get it back on track

Really?
Cutting taxes is a BAD thing?
We need more taxes?
Please explain.

I agree with you on your assessment of the Democrat's answer.

[musclemerc]

I fixed it for you.


Originally Posted by PonyUP http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=926101#post92 6101)
The Republican answer to everything-Cut Taxes for the rich and spend money

The Democratic answer to everything-Spend money

[FordNut]

Congress is at it again... They "fixed" healthcare while ignoring the Medicare problems and leaving that to be worked out later. Now they're "fixing" the finance and banking problems without addressing the biggest part of the problem: Fannie and Freddie.

[PonyUP]

Really?
Cutting taxes is a BAD thing?
We need more taxes?
Please explain.

I agree with you on your assessment of the Democrat's answer.

I wouldn't say cutting taxes is a bad thing, but cutting it on the top 1 % of the country, and then a little more to the top 15% hoping it trickles down is a terrible economic plan, but poloticians ahve to run on this because it's what people want to hear.

The truth is with the outrageous spending over the last 10 years by both Bush and Obama, it has to be paid off some how. If you increase the money going out on a war we can't win, bail outs of greedy coporate scumbags, and all the other crap, we have to increase the money coming in, whihc is taxes. Or I propose another option....

Let's start selling states we don't need, Montana is Huge and like 500 people live there, let's package it in a deal to Canada with North Dakota and Wyoming, or we can put em up on Ebay

California has already started their own country by creating their own laws, so let's sell it to Hollywood and see how they fair

And lastly, do we need a New Mexico, Old Mexico has Cancun, Acapulco and Spring break, I'd rather go their, so let's put it up on Craigs List ans see what we can get for it.

(If I offended any of the MM members in the above listed states, I apologize, just trying to lighten the mood in the polotics thread. People sure do get passionate about polotics. Reps, think they right, Dems think they right and the problem is they both suck. Fonzie for President ):beer:

[PonyUP]

In addition, when I say it's a war we can't win, it is certainly nothing against the brave souls that defend our country and our rights to spout off, it' more a dig of when you fight a war with rules of civility, I don't believe you can win it against an enemy that refuses to loose and doesn't play by the same rules

[FordNut]

I wouldn't say cutting taxes is a bad thing, but cutting it on the top 1 % of the country, and then a little more to the top 15% hoping it trickles down is a terrible economic plan, but poloticians ahve to run on this because it's what people want to hear.

Personally, I get hacked off when I pay a bunch of income tax and other people get more back than they paid in. So in effect the income tax I pay in just gets handed off to somebody else.

[Phrog_gunner]

I wouldn't say cutting taxes is a bad thing, but cutting it on the top 1 % of the country, and then a little more to the top 15% hoping it trickles down is a terrible economic plan.

The top 1% of taxpayers pay over 40% of the tax burden(while only earning 22% of the nations income). The bottom 50, yes FIFTY % pays less than 3% of total taxes.


How much of everyone else's share do you think they should pay?


http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

[duhtroll]

I'd say as soon as salaries match the profession's value to society, where lawyers, singers and athletes are making $25K a year and soldiers, teachers and public safety workers are making six figures, THEN we can talk about equitable taxes.

Deal?

:D


The top 1% of taxpayers pay over 40% of the tax burden(while only earning 22% of the nations income). The bottom 50, yes FIFTY % pays less than 3% of total taxes.


How much of everyone else's share do you think they should pay?


http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

[Phrog_gunner]

I'd say as soon as salaries match the profession's value to society, where lawyers, singers and athletes are making $25K a year and soldiers, teachers and public safety workers are making six figures, THEN we can talk about equitable taxes.

Deal?

:D


WHO's opinion will we go by as to what jobs add value to society?

I'm no mathologist, but that's the whole point of "percentage", people who make less, pay less, but everyone pays the same ratio according to their wage.

I'd say teachers should get paid like salesmen, based on results. And with the education system in most places, that would definitely make the costs go down because today's kids have shite for education (good luck trying to find a post even on this site where there/their/they're, since/sense, here/hear, etc isn't butchered). Except for the ones who go to private schools, and guess what, those teachers produce results, and get paid a decent wage.

[PonyUP]

Well let's look at it like this.

the average worker at minimum wage (I think it's 5.45) makes $11336 a year, only he can't live on that, so he works nights and weekends as a security guard making $15/hr 20 hrs a week for a total of $26936 and a tax liability of 15% making his take home $22895.56

Then there's the school teacher with an national average salary of 50586 a year which puts them in the 25% bracket given them a take home of $37,939.5

then there's the Doctor, making $120K a year with a tax liability of 28% making their take home $86400

And finally there is the uber wealthy, the CEO making 1.2 million a year with a $15 million dollar bonus that works on a different tax table because it is incentive based, but lets say he makes $16 million a year, which is in the 39% bracket (that includes the 1 percent hike Obama put in that people were against)
The CEOs take home is $9.6 Million

most tax plans cut the 28% and the 39%, no one ever cuts the 25% or the 15%.

And the worst thing is, that CEO that gets the tax break, the money he saves does not trickle down to the dock worker, or Wal-Mart worker, or whoever the minimum wage person is.

It might effect the Doctor, if they are lucky.

Ofcourse then theres the people that are on welfare that actually make more money than the dock worker because they squeezed out another kid so their benefits went up.

You cannot fix any of this until you ahve hardcore campaign finance reform, hardcore wel-fare reform, and get the lobbyists out of an influential position in Washington. This will never happen because too many poloticians, republican and democrat alike are getting kickbacks from the lobbysists. They don't vote the conscience of the people they represent, but rathher the conscience of the company that gave them their latest check.

Raising taxes alone won't fix the defecit, we have to cut the outrageous spending, bring our troops back home, and quite worrying about the welfare of other countries and start worrying about our own.

[babbage]

Sort of related. Heres all the people that will get this new healthcare. FREE - click the link and sign the petition - I DID.

]http://jv.numbersusa.com/nusa/weeklynewsletter/images/petition_graphic062010.jpg

http://www.numbersusa.com/hub?action=route&rid=698&jid=593205&tid=387983&lid=9&ID=16

[duhtroll]

Your post reflects ignorance I see quite often nowadays.

As soon as your dentist gets held responsible for their patients' cavities and your doctor is held responsible for a patient's weight and smoking habits, then teachers can be blamed for people who don't want to learn.

If Johnny can't read, it isn't because of his teacher. It is because Johnny's parents (parent? guardian?) never read him a book when he was a kid.

A child should be reading before kindergarten. If they can't, how is that their (future) teacher's fault?

People who can't spell have only themselves to blame. People who do poorly in school? Same answer. If a child really wants to learn and isn't being prevented from doing so by an abusive or neglect situation, the child will learn.

And private schools, *income levels being equal* produce the same basic results as public schools. Also, around here private school salaries are actually comparable to less than in public schools.

The most influential factor in whether a child succeeds or fails in school is income. Which of course brings us back to paying people based upon their worth to society. Then making taxes equitable would make more sense.

Of course I don't expect that to happen, but I'm not the one complaining about taxes. I am entertained by people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year whining about how they are being treated unfairly.



WHO's opinion will we go by as to what jobs add value to society?

I'm no mathologist, but that's the whole point of "percentage", people who make less, pay less, but everyone pays the same ratio according to their wage.

I'd say teachers should get paid like salesmen, based on results. And with the education system in most places, that would definitely make the costs go down because today's kids have shite for education (good luck trying to find a post even on this site where there/their/they're, since/sense, here/hear, etc isn't butchered). Except for the ones who go to private schools, and guess what, those teachers produce results, and get paid a decent wage.

[Leadfoot281]

Your post reflects ignorance I see quite often nowadays.

As soon as your dentist gets held responsible for their patients' cavities and your doctor is held responsible for a patient's weight and smoking habits, then teachers can be blamed for people who don't want to learn.

If Johnny can't read, it isn't because of his teacher. It is because Johnny's parents (parent? guardian?) never read him a book when he was a kid.

A child should be reading before kindergarten. If they can't, how is that their (future) teacher's fault?

People who can't spell have only themselves to blame. People who do poorly in school? Same answer. If a child really wants to learn and isn't being prevented from doing so by an abusive or neglect situation, the child will learn.

And private schools, *income levels being equal* produce the same basic results as public schools. Also, around here private school salaries are actually comparable to less than in public schools.

The most influential factor in whether a child succeeds or fails in school is income. Which of course brings us back to paying people based upon their worth to society. Then making taxes equitable would make more sense.

Of course I don't expect that to happen, but I'm not the one complaining about taxes. I am entertained by people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year whining about how they are being treated unfairly.

Lol! Your post makes teachers seem completely worthless. Are you looking for a pay cut? :lol:

[Joe Walsh]

Well let's look at it like this.

the average worker at minimum wage (I think it's 5.45) makes $11336 a year, only he can't live on that, so he works nights and weekends as a security guard making $15/hr 20 hrs a week for a total of $26936 and a tax liability of 15% making his take home $22895.56

Then there's the school teacher with an national average salary of 50586 a year which puts them in the 25% bracket given them a take home of $37,939.5

then there's the Doctor, making $120K a year with a tax liability of 28% making their take home $86400

And finally there is the uber wealthy, the CEO making 1.2 million a year with a $15 million dollar bonus that works on a different tax table because it is incentive based, but lets say he makes $16 million a year, which is in the 39% bracket (that includes the 1 percent hike Obama put in that people were against)
The CEOs take home is $9.6 Million

most tax plans cut the 28% and the 39%, no one ever cuts the 25% or the 15%.

And the worst thing is, that CEO that gets the tax break, the money he saves does not trickle down to the dock worker, or Wal-Mart worker, or whoever the minimum wage person is.

It might effect the Doctor, if they are lucky.

Ofcourse then theres the people that are on welfare that actually make more money than the dock worker because they squeezed out another kid so their benefits went up.

You cannot fix any of this until you ahve hardcore campaign finance reform, hardcore wel-fare reform, and get the lobbyists out of an influential position in Washington. This will never happen because too many poloticians, republican and democrat alike are getting kickbacks from the lobbysists. They don't vote the conscience of the people they represent, but rathher the conscience of the company that gave them their latest check.

Raising taxes alone won't fix the deficit, we have to cut the outrageous spending, bring our troops back home, and quite worrying about the welfare of other countries and start worrying about our own.

Ahhhh...now we are getting somewhere.
No more tax increases....Sorry, that B.S. won't play for most tax paying Americans.
How long must we here:
"If we don't raise taxes we'll have to cut school programs and lay off Police Officers and close Fire Departments...:blah::blah:"

How about laying off some government workers?

How many regulatory paper pushers do we need making $75,000+ a year with full benefits???

What are we going to do when there are more government workers than there are workers in the private sector?

How about......Let's cut government spending!

Here's a really crazy idea: Let's hold government agency's accountable for their budgets and make them run efficiently!

The Federal government is a GIGANTIC, bloated, inefficient cash gobbling machine.

[LIGHTNIN1]

We should raise taxes sky high like they have in Europe. I mean it is working there isn't it in places like Germany, Greece ,Italy? Lets go to 90%. I am all for it. Life should be more fun then.Of course you may have to give up your Marauder.

[PonyUP]

Ahhhh...now we are getting somewhere.
No more tax increases....Sorry, that B.S. won't play for most tax paying Americans.
How long must we here:
"If we don't raise taxes we'll have to cut school programs and lay off Police Officers and close Fire Departments...:blah::blah:"

How about laying off some government workers?

How many regulatory paper pushers do we need making $75,000+ a year with full benefits???

What are we going to do when there are more government workers than there are workers in the private sector?

How about......Let's cut government spending!

Here's a really crazy idea: Let's hold government agency's accountable for their budgets and make them run efficiently!

The Federal government is a GIGANTIC, bloated, inefficient cash gobbling machine.
+1, until we stop the outrageous government spending and salaries we can't fix anything. If we raise taxes, that gives our money to the government to spend, if we lower them, that is less income coming in. Raising taxes on the dock worker or the teacher is ludacris because they make very little money. Raising taxes on the uber wealthy is pointless because they'll find a loophole to circumevent. The people making $60-$100K pay for this country.

Creating agenicies to oversee reports of departments that no longer exist is crazy.Paying senators $120K a year plus healthcare and retirement for life is stupid when they get kickbacks from lobbyists that pay for their vote. We greatly overpay useless government jobs and greatly underpay jobs that we are supposed to value (i.e. teachers)

Why do we find it okay to pay Alex Rodriquez $275 million dollars and not okay to pay teachers 6 figure salaries.

Why isn't college tuition 100% tax deductible so parents could actually afford to send their kids to college instead of the kids paying school loans for the next 30 years.

How are you ever supposed to get ahead when we have breeded a culture of being left behind?

[MMBLUE]

I am sick of this thread.

[PonyUP]

I am sick of this thread.

Suggest you read other threads then, a spirited debate about our countries future is never a bad thing. Those with ideas that refuse to speak are left in the cold, those who speak their mind develop the future

[MMBLUE]

I agree, I am a political junkie. But enough is enough. Frankly, I'm sick of all the bad news and can't wait till NOV FOR SOME REAL CHANGE!

[Joe Walsh]

i agree, i am a political junkie. But enough is enough. Frankly, i'm sick of all the bad news and can't wait till nov for some real change!

Vote out all incumbents who have served more than 2 terms!

Regardless of political party!

It is our only hope to save this country....I mean it.

[PonyUP]

Well the vast majority on this site think Obama is doing poorly, the remainder blame it on Bush. As a country we ahve been on a downward spiral for far too long. It's not a republican problem or a Democrat problem, it's an american problem. As long as we allow corporations and associations to contribute to campaings, we are going ot get agendas that cater to the issues most needed by those lobbyists. How can the housing market completly burst with zero ramifications? How can we have a healthcare reform bill that reforms zero healthcare? When hardworking people need it most, how do we not extend unemployment benefits? If we continue to only focus on America as a spreadsheet, then we are doomed.

[MMBLUE]

Vote out all incumbents who have served more than 2 terms!

Regardless of political party!

It is our only hope to save this country....I mean it.

I concur. The massive changes coming across the military are incredible. BHO and the congress cronies want to take us from 565,000 to 300K in the military. Talk about weakening us OMG.

[duhtroll]

I guess I was assuming most people learn beyond a kindergarten reading level.

Or are you saying that each individual is not responsible for their own education?

Do you tell kids, "that's OK son, if you don't score well it is your teacher's fault. Don't you dare go a-tryin' now. Make them come to you."

People who are failures like to blame others rather than take responsibility themselves. People who blame their teachers, all of them, and ONLY them, for their own stupidity just reinforce to others that they are willfully stupid.

I will say this. The worst teacher in the world cannot hold back a child who is motivated to learn and has a supportive family.

The best teacher in the world cannot possibly educate a child who doesn't show up.



Lol! Your post makes teachers seem completely worthless. Are you looking for a pay cut? :lol:

[Phrog_gunner]

Your post reflects ignorance I see quite often nowadays.

As soon as your dentist gets held responsible for their patients' cavities and your doctor is held responsible for a patient's weight and smoking habits, then teachers can be blamed for people who don't want to learn.

If Johnny can't read, it isn't because of his teacher. It is because Johnny's parents (parent? guardian?) never read him a book when he was a kid.



I must be ignorant then. So then please tell me what IS the job of a teacher? According to your logic, they add no value to society (since, it is everyone ELSE'S responsibility to teach the kids) so it seems to me the low pay fits quite well.

I do agree with you that the family and home situation can staggeringly increase the chances for a kid to succeed. I also agree that everyone should take personal responsibility for their own education and not blame someone else (even if it is the other party's fault). Following this same logic, every individual is responsible for how much money they make. If they don't feel they are making enough money, it is their fault for not getting a higher paying job.


So once we artificially increase the salaries to the jobs we "like" and artificially decrease the salaries of jobs we don't "like" can we also make the people we don't "like" sit at the back of the bus and drink out of different water fountains than the people we do "like"?

[FordNut]

Raising taxes on the dock worker or the teacher is ludacris because they make very little money. Raising taxes on the uber wealthy is pointless because they'll find a loophole to circumevent.
True. The rich don't even have to have an income. Tax them at a high enough rate and they can just sit on their money and not pay taxes at all. And I guess it's ok for the poor to not pay any income taxes at all. But a tax refund that is more than the amount paid in is nothing but a redistribution of wealth, and that just ain't right.


Creating agenicies to oversee reports of departments that no longer exist is crazy.Paying senators $120K a year plus healthcare and retirement for life is stupid .
Try $170k. And they're exempt from many of the laws they pass on the rest of us, such as healthcare reform.


Why isn't college tuition 100% tax deductible so parents could actually afford to send their kids to college instead of the kids paying school loans for the next 30 years.
Some people may benefit from such a deduction, but it would just drive up the price of college.


I will say this. The worst teacher in the world cannot hold back a child who is motivated to learn and has a supportive family.

The best teacher in the world cannot possibly educate a child who doesn't show up.
What do ya know, something we agree on... One of the reasons O's plan to send everybody to college won't work. Lots of people don't WANT to learn. They just want to kick back and cruise through life and have the same income, benefits, etc as the ones who work hard and study.

[Leadfoot281]

Vote out all incumbents who have served more than 2 terms!

Regardless of political party!

It is our only hope to save this country....I mean it.

Vote out everyone that has been there ONE term! :beer:

[Joe Walsh]

Vote out everyone that has been there ONE term! :beer:

Hey...I'm willing to use the same limits set on the Presidency....2 terms.

Then they go back home and search for a regular job...just like the rest of us!

[Phrog_gunner]

Hey...I'm willing to use the same limits set on the Presidency....2 terms.

Then they go back home and search for a regular job...just like the rest of us!

Don't forget go home without a pension.

[jerrym3]

Can't think of any teacher that really influenced me other than making me do the scheduled work or face the consequences.

Biggest influence: mom and the local police.

Get in trouble, or come home with a bad report card, mom brought out the wooden stick.

The local police in Guttenberg NJ that worked with us kids (PAL, trips to Yankee, Giant, Dodger games, hosting "airplane model" nights at the grammar school), refereeing baseball/basketball games, etc influenced me greatly.

(One cop even drove me to school one day because I was late!)

When we played Little League games at other towns, the local DPW dump truck would be our transportation.

Our Chief of Police was able to arrange a Washington, DC, trip for the 8th grade school monitors. Two station wagons full of kids going down the NJ Tpke (Guttenberg was a small town.) He drove one of the wagons.

Great guys.

[duhtroll]

I must be ignorant then. So then please tell me what IS the job of a teacher? According to your logic, they add no value to society (since, it is everyone ELSE'S responsibility to teach the kids) so it seems to me the low pay fits quite well.

I do agree with you that the family and home situation can staggeringly increase the chances for a kid to succeed. I also agree that everyone should take personal responsibility for their own education and not blame someone else (even if it is the other party's fault). Following this same logic, every individual is responsible for how much money they make. If they don't feel they are making enough money, it is their fault for not getting a higher paying job.

So once we artificially increase the salaries to the jobs we "like" and artificially decrease the salaries of jobs we don't "like" can we also make the people we don't "like" sit at the back of the bus and drink out of different water fountains than the people we do "like"?


You post something like this (especially the last paragraph) and then try to talk about logic?

OK, lets say teachers set their own prices, just like any capitalist venture should. Let everyone keep the money that currently goes to taxes for schools. How long do you think it would be before half of the nation's kids are out in the streets instead of in school because parents don't want to pay teachers for the time they actually spend working?

What do you think those kids will be doing since they now have all this free time on their hands?

Better throw those taxes from schools into jails, then.

Or, we could just change the child labor laws and put them to work like in some other countries. That would solve two problems at once! :P

If people are responsible for their own education, as you say, they don't get to blame their teachers. Just like if they are a fat lazy bastard, they don't get to blame their doctor.

In case you missed it, the discussion I posted was defending teachers from blame, not discussing their value -- those are two different things. (yeah, they are if you think about it - I'm telling you your blame is misplaced, not trying to show you how great teachers are) And if you don't see their value then it is not worth my time to try and convince you.

BTW, it was you that said they had no value to society and that it was everyone else's job, then tried to attribute it to me. I said neither of those things. Nice try, but only ignorant people would fall for that.

"I'm fed up with teachers and their hefty salaries for only 9 months work" said the man. "What we need here is a little perspective. If I had my way, I would pay teachers baby-sitting wages! That's right...instead of paying these outrageous taxes! I'd give them $3 an hour. And I'm only paying for five hours; NOT for those planning times, after hours meetings, or duty times either! That's $15 a day!"

"Fine," said the teacher. "I'll take it"

The man looked surprised!

"Each parent will pay $15 a day for me to babysit their children. Even if they have more than one child it will be cheaper than private daycare. And as a bonus, I will continue to TEACH these children. Lets see, I teach on average 25 children per hour - that's $15 x 25 = $375 a day. But remember, we work - as you said , 180 days, so that's $375 x 180 = $67,500 a year."

"Now wait a minute." said the man.

The teacher added, "What about those teachers who have ten years or more of experience, a master's degree, or teach special education? They should at least get minimum wage don't you think? Let's round it off to say...$6 per hour. That's $6 x 5 hours x 25 children = $750 per day. Now multiply that times 180 days. That's $135,000 per 180 days."

"Hey wait a minute...", said the man. "Something is wrong here!"

"That's what I think too." said the teacher.



So, you say a person is responsible for how much money they make, above.

Really?

Explain nepotism and inheritance. Then explain how a person's motivation can obtain or change those two sources of money. And yes, they are very, very prevalent in the top tiers of corporations and the richest families in the world. I think you should describe how Joe the hot dog vendor has a chance at that level of income without winning the lottery.

"Go out and get a better job" only works if the access is there. It seems to me that what you're saying is "I've got mine, sucks to be you."

[PonyUP]

I feel that saying people should just go out and get a better job if they don't like how much they make, can be a pretty narrow point of view (Especially for our Construction Worker friends that have been laid off and uncertain of their jobs coming back). It's not like bewitched where a person can twitch their nose and be a Doctor. To be a Doctor you need to go to a good college which is pretty expensive, then you have to go to Medical school, also pretty expensive, then you have to do internships as part of that. If you don't have the money to go through these programs, your not making it.
If you wanted to be a Major League Baseball player to make the big bucks, but you can't catch? Your not gonna make it.
Just speaking for myself here, but I think teachers CAN carry a big influence on our kids. The cost of living is such that to provide nice things for our familes, many times both parents need to work, which often leaves children in the hands of teachers, neighbors, teenage babysitters and more. Kids learn behaviors from those around them. I had a teacher in 8th grade that was very involved, helped with my studies, helped with problems, and helped with my overall attitude. As I think of it, there were a few teachers that had a large influence, as did my parents and family. As such I am highschool graduate that became Regional Vice President for my company. I accredit that to Family, Friends, Teachers, and myself.
The teaching profession is like every profession, there are good ones, and there are bad ones. There are some teachers overpaid for what they do, and some grossly underpaid.
Where this all started was taxes, and I still feel the bottom line is, until we control the outrageous governement spending we can't give any kind of meaniful tax relief.

Even as a Democrat, I will applaud Bush for sticking with his tax relief plan, even in the face of fighting two wars and it was great to see an extra few hundred bucks. And I am perfectly fine with Obama raising taxes on that top bracket to 39%, I will not let me heart bleed for the multi millionaires that trashed Wall street in the first place, because they gotta pay a little more. The problem is we are in such a fix, I fear they are just going to raise taxes across the board to pay for all this crap
(2) Wars
Bank Bailout
Car Bailout
Haiti Relief
Loans to Greece, the Palestinians and God knows who else

It's almost like they got the white house and now it's an episode of MTV cribs spending money on crap we don't need.

[kernie]

Suggest you read other threads then, a spirited debate about our countries future is never a bad thing. Those with ideas that refuse to speak are left in the cold, those who speak their mind develop the future
Right on!

Bring on the thinkers, down with the complaining crew!

:beer:

[Phrog_gunner]

"Go out and get a better job" only works if the access is there. It seems to me that what you're saying is "I've got mine, sucks to be you."


I have very little. But what I do have, I EARNED and I don't cry and complain that other people with a better education, better job skills,or that work harder than I do EARN more money than I do. I also am not such a weakling that I feel that since I am unable to move up in the world myself, that I will instead proclaim that it is only right bring other people down.

If I did have mine, isn't it my right to say sucks to be you? If it is all about personal responsibility, then what YOU have is YOUR responsibility, and therefore what you don't have is also YOUR responsibility.

[duhtroll]

First of all, where did I complain that others make more than me?

If education equaled money in this country, you might have a point. But it doesn't. Some of the most educated people in the world are happy working in labs for little cash. Some of us don't think money equals happiness OR success.

Personally, I am very happy where I am and I am willing to bet I make less than most with my level of education. In fact, I know I do. I also know I work harder than many people who make two to three times what I make. Does it matter to me? Only when I hear people with lots more money whining about how unfair the system is to them.

I get tired of people whining about taxes, especially here. Living in this country has rules and people have the option of not living here. But it seems there are some who just want to complain to whomever will listen.

Side note: I am sure there are dozens if not hundreds of "I hate taxes" and "f*** liberals" websites out there for people to join. But instead they whine here.

Really? Do they think they are convincing anyone here?

Actually, if any of those qualities you listed equaled more money, you might be right, but they don't necessarily. Too many high paying jobs are given away to the boss's son in law. Ever hear the old adage "it isn't what you know but who you know?"

Then there's the whole entertainment "industry." Do you think Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan, or even someone like LeBron James are more educated, work harder, or have better job skills than anyone here? Or do you really think a lack of professional basketball would cause our system to crumble?

What about people who quit their jobs to be reality TV stars? Deserving? And I don't mean "deserving" in the sense that they are able to con people into paying to watch them. I mean really deserving by their value to our society.

The list is practically endless.

I mean, if you are going to say that people who con others out of their money deserve to have it, then we can stop the discussion here. I can lie and cheat and steal my way to more money, too. Would that mean I deserved it?

I'm not going to lose any sleep at night over people making upwards of half a million dollars a year just because they have to give up over half that to taxes. In their whining they seen to lose track of the fact that after taxes they still have a quarter million $ a year.

I think you should take your views downtown and tell the guy running the gas station and also has another job on the side that it is his fault he can't make ends meet. Tell him to work harder or get a better education or get some better job skills while trying to feed his family. See how that works out for you.

You have the right to say anything you like in this country. If fact, I think you should say them more often in public places (not counting car boards) and see the reaction you get. :)


I have very little. But what I do have, I EARNED and I don't cry and complain that other people with a better education, better job skills,or that work harder than I do EARN more money than I do. I also am not such a weakling that I feel that since I am unable to move up in the world myself, that I will instead proclaim that it is only right bring other people down.

If I did have mine, isn't it my right to say sucks to be you? If it is all about personal responsibility, then what YOU have is YOUR responsibility, and therefore what you don't have is also YOUR responsibility.

[CBT]

I'm not going to lose any sleep at night over people making upwards of half a million dollars a year just because they have to give up over half that to taxes. In their whining they seen to lose track of the fact that after taxes they still have a quarter million $ a year.


It is wrong to take half of what someone has and give it to someone else. That should bother everyone. Where will it stop? I mean, assuming you have two lungs, two kidneys, two eyeballs, and someone else doesn't, why not have half of them taken away from you? You shouldn't miss them, you still have half.

[Phrog_gunner]

It is wrong to take half of what someone has and give it to someone else. That should bother everyone. Where will it stop? I mean, assuming you have two lungs, two kidneys, two eyeballs, and someone else doesn't, why not have half of them taken away from you? You shouldn't miss them, you still have half.

Case you have to understand that it depends on what they think you DESERVE. I mean you didn't "work hard" to grow two arms and two legs, so therefore they should be taken from you and given to someone else. It's just like he said with an inheritance, I mean arms and legs were just given to you by your parents, so you don't deserve them.

[PonyUP]

Personally I have no problem paying taxes, I have a problem paying 40% in taxes. If it actually went to road repairs, bridge repairs, and things that make sense, that would be fine. But they go to war machines, bank lobby's and campaign war chests. I have no problem paying my fair share, the question is, why do i have to pay the gas attendants share as well. If I'm gonna be taxed 40%, why isn't he?

Because the system wouldn't work. Taxes need to be lowered for all, not raised on anyone. Quit the outrageous governemnt spending, and give my money back, I'd like to buy a slurpy

[CBT]

Personally I have no problem paying taxes, I have a problem paying 40% in taxes. If it actually went to road repairs, bridge repairs, and things that make sense, that would be fine. But they go to war machines, bank lobby's and campaign war chests. I have no problem paying my fair share, the question is, why do i have to pay the gas attendants share as well. If I'm gonna be taxed 40%, why isn't he?

Because the system wouldn't work. Taxes need to be lowered for all, not raised on anyone. Quit the outrageous governemnt spending, and give my money back, I'd like to buy a slurpy

My favorite is the "retarded checks" kids get for playing stupid on tests in school so mommy and daddy get that money on top of food stamps and 'regular' welfare checks.

[PonyUP]

Can I get sum that welfare? I still want my slurpy

[Phrog_gunner]

Can I get sum that welfare? I still want my slurpy

Here's a tip that will save you some $$ on a slurpee: 7-11 inventories by the cup, not what's in the cup. So take a Super Big Gulp cup and put your slurpee in it (one of the slurpee lids will even fit it). It has been a while, but the last time I checked, this would save you about a buck vs. the equivalent size slurpee.

[kernie]

It is wrong to take half of what someone has and give it to someone else. That should bother everyone. Where will it stop? I mean, assuming you have two lungs, two kidneys, two eyeballs, and someone else doesn't, why not have half of them taken away from you? You shouldn't miss them, you still have half.
When the most priveleged in perhaps the most priveleged country in the world is complaining...

:beer:

[Phrog_gunner]

When the most priveleged in perhaps the most priveleged country in the world is complaining...

:beer:

What happens then, besides the horrid grammar and spelling?

[kernie]

What happens then, besides the horrid grammar and spelling?
Back to the spelling froggy, oops did i spell that wrong?

[Phrog_gunner]

What's the rest of the saying? It's not one I've heard before. Obviously I'm no sayingologist.

[kernie]

What's the rest of the saying? It's not one I've heard before. Obviously I'm no sayingologist.
It's quite obvious what i'm saying, how can the most priveledged {better?} of the worlds citizens find so much to complain about?

[Phrog_gunner]

It's quite obvious what i'm saying, how can the most priveledged {better?} of the worlds citizens find so much to complain about?

I'm no rocket surgeon, but I'm quite sure its privileged.

How can they? Because it is THEIR money, and THEIR right to keep it. It has to do with having the minimals to stick up for yourself, which is one reason this country became the greatest on earth.

[kernie]

I'm no rocket surgeon, but I'm quite sure its privileged.

How can they? Because it is THEIR money, and THEIR right to keep it. It has to do with having the minimals to stick up for yourself, which is one reason this country became the greatest on earth.
You are one funny little frog.

[Joe Walsh]

I'm not going to lose any sleep at night over people making upwards of half a million dollars a year just because they have to give up over half that to taxes. In their whining they seen to lose track of the fact that after taxes they still have a quarter million $ a year.

WOW! Truly amazing thought.
So if someone works hard and is successful, they should be happy to lose half of their income to taxes?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the inheritance taxes.
When you pass away the government has the right to take 55% of what you've already paid taxes on just because you died?
Oh....that's right! It only applies to those RICH people who worked hard for their entire life and managed to save a nice chunk of money in their retirement portfolio. Their surviving family members should be happy that they are getting 45%....It's still a lot of money...right?

I'll stay in America, you should move to a Communist country.

[kernie]

WOW! Truly amazing thought.
So if someone works hard and is successful, they should be happy to lose half of their income to taxes?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the inheritance taxes.
When you pass away the government has the right to take 55% of what you've already paid taxes on just because you died?
Oh....that's right! It only applies to those RICH people who worked hard for their entire life and managed to save a nice chunk of money in their retirement portfolio.

I'll stay in America, you should move to a Communist country.
Really, wow, glad we don't have that here, now that's a hidden tax!

[Joe Walsh]

Year... Exclusion Amount.... Max/Top tax rate
2001........ $675,000........ 55%
2002........ $1 million........ 50%
2003........ $1 million........ 49%
2004........ $1.5 million..... 48%
2005........ $1.5 million .... 47%
2006........ $2 million........ 46%
2007........ $2 million ....... 45%
2008........ $2 million...... . 45%
2009........ $3.5 million ..... 45%
2010....... * Repealed .... * 0% *
2011........ $1 million ....... 55%

If you've invested wisely in your retirement fund....you better die this year!

All those politicians are licking their chops in anticipation of next year's windfall tax bonanza from everyone who dies "Rich".

[FordNut]

I'm not going to lose any sleep at night over people making upwards of half a million dollars a year just because they have to give up over half that to taxes. In their whining they seen to lose track of the fact that after taxes they still have a quarter million $ a year.



It is wrong to take half of what someone has and give it to someone else. That should bother everyone. Where will it stop? .

There's the point... There are plenty of people who have less than most of us. So why should we get to have two cars when some people don't even have one? Why is it that some of us have a house to live in and others are homeless? That's unfair...

Many in the middle class constantly deride the rich because they have so much, personally I appreciate the rich since they already carry a very high percentage of our tax burden. I'm surprised more of them don't move to another country to avoid unfair taxation. If that happened, who would be saddled with the tax burden?

[Leadfoot281]

Year... Exclusion Amount.... Max/Top tax rate
2001........ $675,000........ 55%
2002........ $1 million........ 50%
2003........ $1 million........ 49%
2004........ $1.5 million..... 48%
2005........ $1.5 million .... 47%
2006........ $2 million........ 46%
2007........ $2 million ....... 45%
2008........ $2 million...... . 45%
2009........ $3.5 million ..... 45%
2010....... * Repealed .... * 0% *
2011........ $1 million ....... 55%

If you've invested wisely in your retirement fund....you better die this year!

All those politicians are licking their chops in anticipation of next year's windfall tax bonanza from everyone who dies "Rich".

Owning a small business will put you right in the middle of this ***** too.

Of course Resident Obama still says he hasn't raised taxes... Lol. I guess he doesn't feel that the return of grave robbing is a "tax increase".

[FordNut]

Year... Exclusion Amount.... Max/Top tax rate
2001........ $675,000........ 55%
2002........ $1 million........ 50%
2003........ $1 million........ 49%
2004........ $1.5 million..... 48%
2005........ $1.5 million .... 47%
2006........ $2 million........ 46%
2007........ $2 million ....... 45%
2008........ $2 million...... . 45%
2009........ $3.5 million ..... 45%
2010....... * Repealed .... * 0% *
2011........ $1 million ....... 55%

If you've invested wisely in your retirement fund....you better die this year!

All those politicians are licking their chops in anticipation of next year's windfall tax bonanza from everyone who dies "Rich".

If a lot of rich liberals (dems) die in 2011 that may have some impact on the 2012 election, eh?

[Phrog_gunner]

You are one funny little frog.

I'm glad that was grammatically correct. I was starting to think the Canadian education system was thought out about as well as their health care system.

[kernie]

I'm glad that was grammatically correct. I was starting to think the Canadian education system was thought out about as well as their health care system.
Health care, right, that is what this thread is about, how come you pay more than anyone but have such dismal results?

[FordNut]

Health care, right, that is what this thread is about, how come you pay more than anyone but have such dismal results?

Seems fine to me. Most of the people who deride the American health care system are in other places.

[Leadfoot281]

Health care, right, that is what this thread is about, how come you pay more than anyone but have such dismal results?

http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2009/09/30/a_statistical_analysis_of_mari time_unemployment_rates,_1946-1948_just_kidding,_more_libera l_lies_about_national_healthca re!/page/full

This should keep you busy for a while. Be sure to check out parts 1,2,3 and 4 too.

[duhtroll]

For the record, I am not "deriding" the rich - never have.

I say they whine a lot. Apparently making $30 million is not enough for some. They have to have $50 million. After all, THEY are entitled to it!

No human being works hard enough to earn $50 million unless on a quarterly basis they cure a major disease or stop a war or something similar.


There's the point... There are plenty of people who have less than most of us. So why should we get to have two cars when some people don't even have one? Why is it that some of us have a house to live in and others are homeless? That's unfair...

Many in the middle class constantly deride the rich because they have so much, personally I appreciate the rich since they already carry a very high percentage of our tax burden. I'm surprised more of them don't move to another country to avoid unfair taxation. If that happened, who would be saddled with the tax burden?

[duhtroll]

OK now you are just being ridiculous.

What percentage should be taken? 40%? 30%?

By the same logic you just posted, no one should pay taxes because no one gets back the dollars they put in. Yeah, even all those poor leeches people keep complaining about.

Heck, I haven't ever needed to call the fire department so I shouldn't pay for them. Why am I paying to save other people's lives? Screw them!

I don't need police either. I'll just buy lots of guns and shoot anyone I don't like. Don't need roads because I'll get a tracked vehicle and just drive wherever. Since there won't be any police, no one can stop me.

I only have one kid and the family next door has three so I shouldn't have to pay as much for schools. Heck people with no children shouldn't have to pay that at all.

This just keeps getting better and better.

Would you guys be happy if we just killed all the poor people? That'll show 'em. Then they would stop ruining your lives.


It is wrong to take half of what someone has and give it to someone else. That should bother everyone. Where will it stop? I mean, assuming you have two lungs, two kidneys, two eyeballs, and someone else doesn't, why not have half of them taken away from you? You shouldn't miss them, you still have half.

[kernie]

http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2009/09/30/a_statistical_analysis_of_mari time_unemployment_rates,_1946-1948_just_kidding,_more_libera l_lies_about_national_healthca re!/page/full

This should keep you busy for a while. Be sure to check out parts 1,2,3 and 4 too.
Oh my, Ann Coulter?!

You win.

[duhtroll]

Did cousin Jethro tell you this or do you have actual evidence?


My favorite is the "retarded checks" kids get for playing stupid on tests in school so mommy and daddy get that money on top of food stamps and 'regular' welfare checks.

[de minimus]

http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2009/09/30/a_statistical_analysis_of_mari time_unemployment_rates,_1946-1948_just_kidding,_more_libera l_lies_about_national_healthca re!/page/full

This should keep you busy for a while. Be sure to check out parts 1,2,3 and 4 too.

Seriously, Ann Coulter? Really?

[duhtroll]

OK first of all, please post the actual text of the actual law in your state that explains the inheritance tax if you want to discuss it. And since when does inheriting money mean you earned it?

I think "inheritance" is the OPPOSITE of earning it. You are being given money by someone who died. How are you entitled to that again? How did you earn it?

Secondly, *I* am not the one whining about the laws here. So it seems I am happy here while you are not.

Good luck in your new country.


WOW! Truly amazing thought.
So if someone works hard and is successful, they should be happy to lose half of their income to taxes?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the inheritance taxes.
When you pass away the government has the right to take 55% of what you've already paid taxes on just because you died?
Oh....that's right! It only applies to those RICH people who worked hard for their entire life and managed to save a nice chunk of money in their retirement portfolio. Their surviving family members should be happy that they are getting 45%....It's still a lot of money...right?

I'll stay in America, you should move to a Communist country.

[FordNut]

For the record, I am not "deriding" the rich - never have.

I say they whine a lot. Apparently making $30 million is not enough for some. They have to have $50 million. After all, THEY are entitled to it!

No human being works hard enough to earn $50 million unless on a quarterly basis they cure a major disease or stop a war or something similar.

If they can earn it they are entitled to it. I figure if taxes take an inordinate percentage of investment income, they could leave it in the bank and not pay taxes on it since they had no earnings from it. Then the rest of us in the middle class will have to make up for the difference since government spending isn't going down.

[FordNut]

OK first of all, please post the actual text of the actual law in your state that explains the inheritance tax if you want to discuss it. And since when does inheriting money mean you earned it?

I think "inheritance" is the OPPOSITE of earning it. You are being given money by someone who died. How are you entitled to that again? How did you earn it?

Secondly, *I* am not the one whining about the laws here. So it seems I am happy here while you are not.

Good luck in your new country.

Just why is the government entitled to something I earned and worked hard for? Why can't I pass it on to my children unencumbered?

[duhtroll]

I'm just gonna take a guess and say that if you have investments, you probably aren't worrying about your next meal.

Would you rather make $12,000 a year and pay no taxes or make $250,000 a year and only net $120K? Working the same number of hours, of course.


If they can earn it they are entitled to it. I figure if taxes take an inordinate percentage of investment income, they could leave it in the bank and not pay taxes on it since they had no earnings from it. Then the rest of us in the middle class will have to make up for the difference since government spending isn't going down.

[duhtroll]

Are you going to post the law? Because until then you're just firing blanks and we have nothing to talk about.

Also, please explain how your children earned your money. I am not saying the government should get it. I'm just asking a question.


Just why is the government entitled to something I earned and worked hard for? Why can't I pass it on to my children unencumbered?

[Leadfoot281]

Are you going to post the law? Because until then you're just firing blanks and we have nothing to talk about.

Also, please explain how your children earned your money. I am not saying the government should get it. I'm just asking a question.

Perhaps you're also in favor of fedzilla taxing any birthday present you give your kids too? Fair is fair, right?

I think the point duhtroll is trying to make here is this;

If you own a Movie theater, don't open two or three more.
If you own a 5 bay car wash, don't expand it to 7.
If you run a small factory, don't hire more people.
If you sold a million albums, retire.
If your voice can fill a stadium, STFU.
If you risked your money on stocks, don't keep the rewards.
If you own 50 cows, shoot 25 of them.
If you have 20 employess, fire 10 of them.
If you work hard, slack off.
If you're successful, screw up.
If you can, leave America for some place that actually wants you. America does not want you. Hard work, long hours, innovation and talent WILL BE PUNISHED.

Move your job, your factories and employees to Mexico, China, or Taiwan where they will welcome you with lower tax rates, less restrictions, less bureaucracy and less red tape. They won't make you pay for the "have nots". These countries won't try to destroy you. We will.

You have been warned...

[MrBluGruv]

OK first of all, please post the actual text of the actual law in your state that explains the inheritance tax if you want to discuss it. And since when does inheriting money mean you earned it?

I think "inheritance" is the OPPOSITE of earning it. You are being given money by someone who died. How are you entitled to that again? How did you earn it?

Secondly, *I* am not the one whining about the laws here. So it seems I am happy here while you are not.

Good luck in your new country.


To that, I would suggest the notion that there are a number of individuals who work hard and make money so their posterity don't have to work as hard, and especially in the case where the money was left in a will, I think it's a little unfair to take from that in any case, not necessarily from the angle of the recipient but from the deceased as it was their desire that that money (which was already taxed once) go to the recipient. In that context, it seems pretty close to the government arbitrarily deciding what to do with your property. I can't really think of any other "gifts" outside of say a car that you will get taxed on for having it change hands like that.

[Phrog_gunner]

Would you rather make $12,000 a year and pay no taxes or make $250,000 a year and only net $120K? Working the same number of hours, of course.

Why should it stop with money? We can move this system into the classroom as well. When little Johnny only makes a 40% and Mary makes a 100%, we can take 30 points away from her so that they can both pass the class. Then we can tell Mary to quit complaining about EARNING her grade and having some taken away.


Since it is such a good thing for some people to pay more in taxes, do set an example and pay more in taxes than the government requires you to?

[Joe Walsh]

OK first of all, please post the actual text of the actual law in your state that explains the inheritance tax if you want to discuss it. And since when does inheriting money mean you earned it?
I think "inheritance" is the OPPOSITE of earning it.
You are being given money by someone who died.
How are you entitled to that again? How did you earn it?

Secondly, *I* am not the one whining about the laws here. So it seems I am happy here while you are not.

No, you are just the sucker who supports the government taking money from you just because you died....:shake:

Good luck in your new country.

I already live in it! It is 'changing' into the "Socialist Republic of America" and "Mexico North".



WOW again!

So the government earned the rights to it because the inheritors didn't???
The government is entitled to it???

Scary, scary thought process you have.

[Joe Walsh]

I'm just gonna take a guess and say that if you have investments, you probably aren't worrying about your next meal.

Would you rather make $12,000 a year and pay no taxes or make $250,000 a year and only net $120K? Working the same number of hours, of course.


I'd rather work hard and smart to earn a good living and then be able to keep a majority of it for myself.
You keep defending low wage earners as if they are forced to work in those jobs.
Get an education, work hard and work smart and you can make a great living.
Heck, you can be brainless and work full time at WalMart or McDonald's and make $20,000/yr.

[kernie]

I was just reading this in the local rag, interesting, welcome home docs.

SARNIA — A growing number of disgruntled doctors are leaving the U.S. and returning to Ontario, a Sarnia-Lambton physician recruiter says.
Cindy Scholten Tuesday introduced Dr. Igor Nedic, the fourth physician from Michigan to recently relocate to Sarnia. Nedic, 52, will start accepting patients on Friday at the office he shares with Dr. Charlie Monk on Mara St. in Point Edward.
After establishing a family practice in his hometown for 13 years, Nedic left Sarnia in 1997.
“When I left in the late 1990s, there was a very unpleasant atmosphere between the medical community and OHIP. What transpired in Ontario then is about to transpire in the U.S. There is much tension between insurance providers, Medicaid, and the medical community.”

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2010/06/29/14559211.html

[PonyUP]

I'm just gonna take a guess and say that if you have investments, you probably aren't worrying about your next meal.

Would you rather make $12,000 a year and pay no taxes or make $250,000 a year and only net $120K? Working the same number of hours, of course.

Your little comment there makes it sound that if I make $120K a year that I don't work that hard or put in that many hours. $120K puts you right in the middle class, that is by far the hardest working class. To earn money, it takes ambition. I wanted nice things in my life, and want my family to have the best things available, so I bust my butt to move up the ladder and I work really hard it. Like the thousands of people that have been laid off and have to scramble from one side job to the next to try and put food on their table.

Further more, If I receive an inheritance, I absolutely earned it. My family earned it and there were sacrifices I had to make so that my father could earn that money. A parent works hard to provide for their family and their retirement, when their money is left over, why can't I give it to my children to continue providing for them after I am gone?
I paid taxes on it when I earned it. Follow this little formula

I paid 40% taxes on the money when I earned, my kids pay 55% when they inherit it, leaving an over all value of 5% from what was originally earned. (I realize that is not actually case, and it's funny math) But I am illustrating a point, in the end the governement gets more of my money than I do, that's not right.

The market has a tendency to set value in terms of salaries for a position. So if the market I am in, set's my value at $120K, the government takes $48K, that leaves me with $72K and your saying I should be happy about it?

:shake:

[CBT]

Did cousin Jethro tell you this or do you have actual evidence?

I'm going to assume the cousin Jethro thing is an attempt to imply I'm a hillbilly? (No offense to any toothless rednecks) If so, **** you. See? I can devolve just as easily as you can, but I'm not afraid to actually say what I feel.
As for actual evidence, two of the welders here were talking about it one day, and one was telling us about the "retarded" check his parents got for him, because if you test low enough at school, you are considered mentally disabled or challenged, and the parents get paid. The kids still go to a regular school, they just take a couple different classes during the day. They also told me a bunch of other ways they get MY tax dollars. One of the guys' "ho's" is a single mother (have to be single, marriage takes away some of the freebies) getting free housing, $650 for utilities and such, more than that in food stamps (here in VA it is called EBT "snap" benefits), SSI (supplemental social security) free lawyer if needed, she works a night job off the books (cutting hair somewhere), has her brother living there collecting unemployment and also working a job off the books during the day (he watches the kids at night while she works), and she has 6 kids, the oldest 2 who are in school earn "retarded" checks, just like the welder I was talking to did. And he's no dummy, could probably be structural engineer if he applied for it thru our company. said "Why do you even mess around with her?" He said "Cause she's got money." That is the kind of **** I do not think I, or anyone else, should have money taken from them to support. Not half, not a third, not one damn penny.


OK now you are just being ridiculous.

What percentage should be taken? 40%? 30%?

By the same logic you just posted, no one should pay taxes because no one gets back the dollars they put in. Yeah, even all those poor leeches people keep complaining about.

Heck, I haven't ever needed to call the fire department so I shouldn't pay for them. Why am I paying to save other people's lives? Screw them!

I don't need police either. I'll just buy lots of guns and shoot anyone I don't like. Don't need roads because I'll get a tracked vehicle and just drive wherever. Since there won't be any police, no one can stop me.

I only have one kid and the family next door has three so I shouldn't have to pay as much for schools. Heck people with no children shouldn't have to pay that at all.

This just keeps getting better and better.

Would you guys be happy if we just killed all the poor people? That'll show 'em. Then they would stop ruining your lives.

You say what I posted was rediculous?! I have no problem paying taxes to support emergency services or Social Security. You lost your job? Wife left and wants to get paid? Got a fat mortgage and can't pay your bills? Lost everything in the stock market? Crashed your car into an innocent family and they sued you for everything? I could care less. You should have had a back up plan. Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Move back in with your parents or your kids. Sell all your toys, do whatever it takes other than asking for half of what I own. I pay my ex-wife $1,500 a month and I could care less because I planned accordingly. Everyone else should do the same.
As for help when needed such as you just got laid off and got hit by a car while walking to the unemplyment office, then yes, I feel sorry for you. Obviously, bad things happen to good people. "Free" health care in this instance is different than a lazy bum or drug addict who never worked, other than working the system, getting free everything. THAT is rediculous.

[Joe Walsh]

I'm going to assume the cousin Jethro thing is an attempt to imply I'm a hillbilly? (No offense to any toothless rednecks) If so, **** you. See? I can devolve just as easily as you can, but I'm not afraid to actually say what I feel.
As for actual evidence, two of the welders here were talking about it one day, and one was telling us about the "retarded" check his parents got for him, because if you test low enough at school, you are considered mentally disabled or challenged, and the parents get paid. The kids still go to a regular school, they just take a couple different classes during the day. They also told me a bunch of other ways they get MY tax dollars. One of the guys' "ho's" is a single mother (have to be single, marriage takes away some of the freebies) getting free housing, $650 for utilities and such, more than that in food stamps (here in VA it is called EBT "snap" benefits), SSI (supplemental social security) free lawyer if needed, she works a night job off the books (cutting hair somewhere), has her brother living there collecting unemployment and also working a job off the books during the day (he watches the kids at night while she works), and she has 6 kids, the oldest 2 who are in school earn "retarded" checks, just like the welder I was talking to did. And he's no dummy, could probably be structural engineer if he applied for it thru our company. said "Why do you even mess around with her?" He said "Cause she's got money." That is the kind of **** I do not think I, or anyone else, should have money taken from them to support. Not half, not a third, not one damn penny.



You say what I posted was rediculous?! I have no problem paying taxes to support emergency services or Social Security. You lost your job? Wife left and wants to get paid? Got a fat mortgage and can't pay your bills? Lost everything in the stock market? Crashed your car into an innocent family and they sued you for everything? I could care less. You should have had a back up plan. Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Move back in with your parents or your kids. Sell all your toys, do whatever it takes other than asking for half of what I own. I pay my ex-wife $1,500 a month and I could care less because I planned accordingly. Everyone else should do the same.
As for help when needed such as you just got laid off and got hit by a car while walking to the unemplyment office, then yes, I feel sorry for you. Obviously, bad things happen to good people. "Free" health care in this instance is different than a lazy bum or drug addict who never worked, other than working the system, getting free everything. THAT is rediculous.


AMEN!



One of the inflexible rules of political life is that you get more of whatever you subsidize.
If you subsidize illegitimacy by adding single mothers to the welfare roles, you will get more out-of-wedlock births.
If you subsidize illegal immigration by endless freebies of housing, education and medical care, you will get more illegal immigration.
If you subsidize drug abuse through taxpayer funded treatment programs, you will get more drug abuse.
If you subsidize health care by giving people "free" trips to the emergency room, you'll get more "free" trips to the emergency room.

The same is true with bigger government. We are subsidizing government growth by dumping the responsibility to pay for current spending onto subsequent generations. Our children and grandchildren and generations yet to be born are now heavily subsidizing current out-of-control government spending.

And since we get more of whatever we subsidize, we will get bigger government.

We will get more government spending until we crash and burn like Greece. Irresponsible 'children' on both sides of the aisle have been authorizing unconscionable levels of deficit spending for a decade now, and there isn't enough 'adults' in Washington to do anything about it. Nor is there enough adults in America who are willing to forgo the bennies they're getting from other taxpayers in order to protect their own offspring from a crushing load of debt.

With 47% of all taxpayers shouldering none of the income tax burden of maintaining government, and 40% actually receiving welfare checks at tax time from the 53% of the population that does pay taxes, how are we ever going to stem the tide?


Getting back to this thread's original discussion; the latest government spending debacle, our new Healthcare Bill:
I've said this before but I'll say it again:

We, the voters, are too stupid to realize that the polticians are bribing us with our own tax money.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Just remember, the same people who are running the Gulf Oil Spill will be running Healthcare.;)

[BruteForce]

Just remember, the same people who are running the Gulf Oil Spill will be running Healthcare.;)

BP will be running health care?!? :rolleyes:

[Bluerauder]

BP will be running health care?!? :rolleyes:
Yes, and you get a free oil change with every major surgery. :P

[Joe Walsh]

Yes, and you get a free oil change with every major surgery. :P

LOL...

They will drain your wallet faster than they drain your oil!

[Bluerauder]

LOL...

They will drain your wallet faster than they drain your oil!

Obviously, I am not paying enough in taxes 'cause I still had a bit left over on 16 April. They'll fix that next year. :rolleyes:

[duhtroll]

There are ways that you can, of course. Where's the guy talking about planning?

And for the second time, I am not saying the gov't is entitled to it, only that your kids did not earn it.


Just why is the government entitled to something I earned and worked hard for? Why can't I pass it on to my children unencumbered?

[duhtroll]

...because we were talking about money?


Why should it stop with money?

[duhtroll]

For the third time, I am not saying the gov't is entitled to it, only that the inheritor didn't earn it.


WOW again!

So the government earned the rights to it because the inheritors didn't???
The government is entitled to it???

Scary, scary thought process you have.

[duhtroll]

You are privileged.

Almost everyone here is. It is obvious you came from a place where you had the things you needed when you were a child.

Statistically, you're simply incorrect when you insinuate that everyone can just go out and work harder, get a better education, and get a higher paying job.

You really do appear to have no idea what growing up in a low-income family means and what it does to your chances of making these things possible. Impossible? No. Just a LOT harder.

You know what the tax rules are, and if you don't like it is appears you have the means to move. Or do you think ANY political body in your lifetime is going to change the tax code so you get to keep most of your money?


I'd rather work hard and smart to earn a good living and then be able to keep a majority of it for myself.
You keep defending low wage earners as if they are forced to work in those jobs.
Get an education, work hard and work smart and you can make a great living.
Heck, you can be brainless and work full time at WalMart or McDonald's and make $20,000/yr.

[duhtroll]

I can speak for myself, thanks. But the arguments on here only work if you guys get to speak for me, so keep trying.



Perhaps you're also in favor of fedzilla taxing any birthday present you give your kids too? Fair is fair, right?

I think the point duhtroll is trying to make here is this;

If you own a Movie theater, don't open two or three more.
If you own a 5 bay car wash, don't expand it to 7.
If you run a small factory, don't hire more people.
If you sold a million albums, retire.
If your voice can fill a stadium, STFU.
If you risked your money on stocks, don't keep the rewards.
If you own 50 cows, shoot 25 of them.
If you have 20 employess, fire 10 of them.
If you work hard, slack off.
If you're successful, screw up.
If you can, leave America for some place that actually wants you. America does not want you. Hard work, long hours, innovation and talent WILL BE PUNISHED.

Move your job, your factories and employees to Mexico, China, or Taiwan where they will welcome you with lower tax rates, less restrictions, less bureaucracy and less red tape. They won't make you pay for the "have nots". These countries won't try to destroy you. We will.

You have been warned...

[duhtroll]

I make less than half that in my 3 jobs and I will put my hours up against anyone on this board, hour for hour. Your NET is more than my gross, so yeah, I think you should be happy and stop whining.

Working hard does not equal money. Yeah, I could make more money too, but I don't feel the need for more.

And I'm sorry, but you didn't earn anything that someone else worked for. Nice sense of entitlement, though.

My father was an attorney - has hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't plan to get dollar one from him when he is gone and I have told him as much. I don't have a sense of entitlement that I had to make sacrifices for HIS work, even though he was gone a lot and I had to do lots of work around the house and his office.

Enjoy your nice things. How's the bitterness working out?


Your little comment there makes it sound that if I make $120K a year that I don't work that hard or put in that many hours. $120K puts you right in the middle class, that is by far the hardest working class. To earn money, it takes ambition. I wanted nice things in my life, and want my family to have the best things available, so I bust my butt to move up the ladder and I work really hard it. Like the thousands of people that have been laid off and have to scramble from one side job to the next to try and put food on their table.

Further more, If I receive an inheritance, I absolutely earned it. My family earned it and there were sacrifices I had to make so that my father could earn that money. A parent works hard to provide for their family and their retirement, when their money is left over, why can't I give it to my children to continue providing for them after I am gone?
I paid taxes on it when I earned it. Follow this little formula

I paid 40% taxes on the money when I earned, my kids pay 55% when they inherit it, leaving an over all value of 5% from what was originally earned. (I realize that is not actually case, and it's funny math) But I am illustrating a point, in the end the governement gets more of my money than I do, that's not right.

The market has a tendency to set value in terms of salaries for a position. So if the market I am in, set's my value at $120K, the government takes $48K, that leaves me with $72K and your saying I should be happy about it?

:shake:

[duhtroll]

1) Cousin Jethro is a TV character.

2) And by your story, yes you have verified it is all hearsay AND in the past, and the person whom you have described sounds even more colorful than the example I provided. Thanks, for that.

Hearsay is fun until someone calls you on the BS.


I'm going to assume the cousin Jethro thing is an attempt to imply I'm a hillbilly? (No offense to any toothless rednecks) If so, **** you. See? I can devolve just as easily as you can, but I'm not afraid to actually say what I feel.
As for actual evidence, two of the welders here were talking about it one day, and one was telling us about the "retarded" check his parents got for him, because if you test low enough at school, you are considered mentally disabled or challenged, and the parents get paid. The kids still go to a regular school, they just take a couple different classes during the day. They also told me a bunch of other ways they get MY tax dollars. One of the guys' "ho's" is a single mother (have to be single, marriage takes away some of the freebies) getting free housing, $650 for utilities and such, more than that in food stamps (here in VA it is called EBT "snap" benefits), SSI (supplemental social security) free lawyer if needed, she works a night job off the books (cutting hair somewhere), has her brother living there collecting unemployment and also working a job off the books during the day (he watches the kids at night while she works), and she has 6 kids, the oldest 2 who are in school earn "retarded" checks, just like the welder I was talking to did. And he's no dummy, could probably be structural engineer if he applied for it thru our company. said "Why do you even mess around with her?" He said "Cause she's got money." That is the kind of **** I do not think I, or anyone else, should have money taken from them to support. Not half, not a third, not one damn penny.



You say what I posted was rediculous?! I have no problem paying taxes to support emergency services or Social Security. You lost your job? Wife left and wants to get paid? Got a fat mortgage and can't pay your bills? Lost everything in the stock market? Crashed your car into an innocent family and they sued you for everything? I could care less. You should have had a back up plan. Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Move back in with your parents or your kids. Sell all your toys, do whatever it takes other than asking for half of what I own. I pay my ex-wife $1,500 a month and I could care less because I planned accordingly. Everyone else should do the same.
As for help when needed such as you just got laid off and got hit by a car while walking to the unemplyment office, then yes, I feel sorry for you. Obviously, bad things happen to good people. "Free" health care in this instance is different than a lazy bum or drug addict who never worked, other than working the system, getting free everything. THAT is rediculous.

[Joe Walsh]

For the third time, I am not saying the gov't is entitled to it, only that the inheritor didn't earn it.

But you are still OK with the government taking 55% of it?....I just wanted to check.

[duhtroll]

You guys don't read anything, do ya? You just make up what I said and then respond to the straw man.

For the FOURTH time, I am not saying the gov't is entitled to it, only that the inheritor did not earn it.

I conclude that for several of you, complaining IS the end result you desire.




But you are still OK with the government taking 55% of it?....I just wanted to check.

[Joe Walsh]

You are privileged.

Almost everyone here is. It is obvious you came from a place where you had the things you needed when you were a child.

Statistically, you're simply incorrect when you insinuate that everyone can just go out and work harder, get a better education, and get a higher paying job.

You really do appear to have no idea what growing up in a low-income family means and what it does to your chances of making these things possible. Impossible? No. Just a LOT harder.

You know what the tax rules are, and if you don't like it is appears you have the means to move. Or do you think ANY political body in your lifetime is going to change the tax code so you get to keep most of your money?


I once believed that the Republican Party would reduce taxes, and they occasionally did...but I don't place any faith in that anymore.
At this point, I would settle for no increases in taxes, but really...is that even a remote possibility?.....:shake:
As you might have figured out by now, I truly despise the State and Federal 'death taxes' that are imposed on anyone who is smart-hard working-thrifty-lucky-whatever enough to save a chunk of money and then unfortunately, die.
I struggle to understand how anyone can think that death taxes are acceptable.

[CBT]

You guys don't read anything, do ya? You just make up what I said and then respond to the straw man.

For the FOURTH time, I am not saying the gov't is entitled to it, only that the inheritor did not earn it.

I conclude that for several of you, complaining IS the end result you desire.

Yes, sometimes more than I wish I had.

[MrBluGruv]

Nice sense of entitlement, though.

Honestly, I think that that is kind of invalid because not every family works with the same dynamics as yours (I'm guessing from what I feel in your posts) has/had.

Personally, while the things that are earned and acquired by the family are not pooled per se, in my family we kind of view it is a unit rather than a group of people living together, and just as my parents took care of me when I was a child, I will work to take care of them when they get older and need extra care and attention. Because of this dynamic, while I guess you could consider it "entitlement", but really it's more of just the next generation in our family unit getting what the prior one left behind, and this will continue to my children if I at all can, and hopefully from them to theirs.

[kernie]

Hmm, death tax + crappy healthcare {and getting worse} system.

There wouldn't be a connection, would there?

Just kidding,

:beer:

[FordNut]

Hmm, death tax + crappy healthcare {and getting worse} system.

There wouldn't be a connection, would there?

Just kidding,

:beer:

My healthcare has always been great. Getting worse now that the government has decided to take it over, though. Thanks for your concern, foreigner...

[kernie]

My healthcare has always been great. Getting worse now that the government has decided to take it over, though. Thanks for your concern, foreigner...
Well i guess you think thats some kind of insult but it's Canada day today and i live in the best country in the world, so sticks and stones...

:beer:

[SC Cheesehead]

Well i guess you think thats some kind of insult but it's Canada day today and i live in the best country in the world, so sticks and stones...

:beer:
You know what they say about opinions...;)

[Leadfoot281]

I can speak for myself, thanks. But the arguments on here only work if you guys get to speak for me, so keep trying.

Ooops. Sorry 'bout that. I meant to say these are the opinions of Resident Obama. Since you voted for him I suppose that means you don't actually disagree with any of it.

It'll be interesting to see how many jobs are created when the capital gains tax goes back up. Afterall, who in their right mind would pull $500,000 out of the stock market to open/expand a business and hire some people at 15% capital gains tax when they could just wait and pay 20% instead?

[duhtroll]

Wait a sec --

First of all, why do you care who I voted for? I don't recall telling you so you're making assumptions again. Do you think you are going to persuade me to vote a certain way in the future with your witty creations?

Secondly, your wild assumptions and playing to the crowd might be fun, but you don't get to speak for anyone but yourself. Not me, not Obama, just yourself. If you have something you wish to say, fine. Putting words in other people's mouths really makes you look silly, IMO.




Ooops. Sorry 'bout that. I meant to say these are the opinions of Resident Obama. Since you voted for him I suppose that means you don't actually disagree with any of it.

It'll be interesting to see how many jobs are created when the capital gains tax goes back up. Afterall, who in their right mind would pull $500,000 out of the stock market to open/expand a business and hire some people at 15% capital gains tax when they could just wait and pay 20% instead?

[CBT]

Interesting article.



Canadian Malpractice Insurance Takes Profit Out Of Coverage

Posted by Jane Akre (http://www.injuryboard.com/Jane-Akre/)
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:47 AM EST
Category: Major Medical (http://news.injuryboard.com/category/Major+Medical)
Tags: Insurance Industry (http://news.injuryboard.com/tag/Insurance+Industry), Medical Malpractice (http://news.injuryboard.com/tag/Medical+Malpractice), Tort Reform (http://news.injuryboard.com/tag/Tort+Reform)



http://news.injuryboard.com/uploadedimages/InjuryBoardcom_Content/Blogs/News_Blog/News/medical_solutions.jpg




(http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece)
For Profit V. Nonprofit


LEARN MORE

Canadian Medical Protective Association Web site (http://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/cmpapd04/docs/highlights-e.cfm)
Americans for Insurance Reform (http://www.insurance-reform.org/issues/MedMalSystemCostsFactSheet2009 F.html)
InjuryBoard News – Medical Malpractice Payments Decline (http://news.injuryboard.com/national-news/study-medical-malpractice-payments-decline.aspx?googleid=266574) – July 2009
Public Citizen: The 0.6 Percent Bogeyman (http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB_Report_200907.pdf) – July 2009
Public Citizen News Release (http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=2920)

IMAGE SOURCE: iStockphoto / medical solutions / author: gmutlu (http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/science-and-medicine/equipment/6328138-medical-solutions.php?id=6328138)

The St. Petersburg Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece) takes a look at the cost of insurance in Canada for health care providers.
A neurosurgeon in Miami pays about $237,000 for medical malpractice insurance. The same professional in Toronto pays about $29,200, reports Susan Taylor Martin.
A Canadian orthopedic surgeon pays just over $10,000 for coverage that costs a Miami physician $140,000. An obstetrician in Canada pays $36,353 for insurance, while a Tampa Bay obstetrician pays $98,000 for medical malpractice insurance.
Why the difference?
In the U.S., private for-profit insurance companies extend medical malpractice coverage to doctors.
In Canada, physicians are covered through membership in a nonprofit. The Canadian Medical Protective Association (http://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/cmpapd04/docs/highlights-e.cfm) offers substantially reduced fees for the same coverage, especially considering that their payout is limited by caps in Canada just as in some U.S. states.
In 1978, the Canadian Supreme Court limited pain and suffering awards to just over $300,000, circumventing the opportunity for a jury to decide on an award depending on the case before them.
Canadian Medical Protective Association
Here’s how it works.
Fees for membership vary depending on the region of the country in which the doctor works and their specialty. All neurosurgeons in Ontario will pay the same, for example. The number of claims they have faced for medical malpractice does not figure into their premium
"We don't adjust our fees based on individual experience; it's the experience of the group,'' says Dr. John Gray, the executive director, "That's what the mutual approach is all about, and it helps keep the fees down for everyone,” he tells the St. Petersburg Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece).
If a doctor is sued, the group pays the claim and provides legal counsel.
In the U.S., the push has been on for limiting claims, no matter how egregious the medical malpractice. President Obama was booed in June when, before the American Medical Association, he said he would not limit a malpractice jury award.
"We got a crazy situation where Obama is talking about the cost of medicine but he said, 'I don't believe in caps,' " complains Dr. Dennis Agliano, past president of the Florida Medical Association (http://www.fmaonline.org/). "If you don't have caps, the sky's the limit and there's no way to curtail those costs.''
But the importance of limiting jury awards may not play into the big picture on health care reform.
Malpractice lawsuits amount to less than one percent (http://www.insurance-reform.org/issues/MedMalSystemCostsFactSheet2009 F.html) of both the Canadian and the U.S. healthcare system, meanwhile between 44,000 and 98,000 Americans die each year due to medical errors in hospitals alone, while 16 times as many suffer injuries without receiving any compensation, reports the group Americans for Insurance Reform (http://www.insurance-reform.org/issues/MedMalSystemCostsFactSheet2009 F.html).
Major Difference
In Canada, an injured patient is often required to pay for the initial investigation into his case. In the U.S. the contingency fee basis, usually in the range of 30 percent, allows the injured party to proceed without a financial downside.
In both the U.S. and Canada, the definition of medical negligence is that a duty of care was owed to the patient by the physician, there was a breach h of the standard of care and the patient suffered harm by the physician’s failure to meet that standard of care.
A bad outcome in itself is not the basis of a lawsuit.
The Canadian Medical Protective Association insures virtually all of the country’s 76,000 doctors, as opposed to the U.S. where private for-profit insurance companies cover physicians for medical malpractice.
In Canada, the median damaged paid in 2007 was $91,999 and judgments favored patients 25 times, doctors 70 times.
In the U.S., many physician groups are requiring patients to waive their rights to a jury trial, even though malpractice litigation accounts for just 0.6 percent of healthcare costs.
Public Citizen (http://www.citizen.org/), the consumer group, charges that the facts don’t warrant the “politically charged hysteria surrounding medical malpractice litigation.”
For the third straight year, medical malpractice payments (http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB_Report_200907.pdf) were at record lows finds the group in a study released this month. The decline, however, is likely due to fewer injured patients receiving compensation, not improved health safety.
2008 saw the lowest number of medical malpractice payments since the federal government’s National Practitioner Data Bank (http://www.npdb-hipdb.hrsa.gov/) began compiling malpractice statistics. In 2008, payments were 30.7 percent lower than averages recorded in all previous years.
In the report titled, The 0.6 Percent Bogeyman (http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB_Report_200907.pdf), the nonprofit watchdog group states, “between three and seven Americans die from medical errors for every 1 who receives a payment for any type of malpractice claim.”
Public Citizen previously reported that about five percent of doctors are responsible (http://www.tradewatch.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1222) for half of the medical malpractice in the U.S. that can result in permanent injury or death. #



Read more: http://news.injuryboard.com/canadian-malpractice-insurance-takes-profit-out-of-coverage.aspx?googleid=267890# ixzz0sXELcYmm

[Joe Walsh]

Vote them all OUT! ....:mad2:

Here is our smug, 38 year incumbent, Pete Stark of California at a Town Hall meeting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsBP2sbhjCA&feature=ytn:mptnews

It's amazing that an elected Congressman would address his constituents in such a manner.

BTW: I sent an Email to the Governor of Arizona letting her know that I fully support their new law and urged them to stand firm.
I also urged her to tell Obama, California and the Mexican President "to go pound sand."

[CBT]

Vote them all OUT! ....:mad2:

Here is our smug, 38 year incumbent, Pete Stark of California at a Town Hall meeting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsBP2sbhjCA&feature=ytn:mptnews

It's amazing that an elected Congressman would address his constituents in such a manner.

BTW: I sent an Email to the Governor of Arizona letting her know that I fully support their new law and urged them stand firm.
I also urged her to tell Obama, California and the Mexican President "to go pound sand."
My old man, who lives in Chicago, has called Jan Brewers office twice. The second time was to apologize for calling drunk the first time and slurring so bad he wasn't sure they'd understand he supported her, lol.

[Baaad GN]

To all those who voted for Obama thanks!

Change is good, enjoy the ride Chicago style!

[Joe Walsh]

You would think that California would jump on board with Arizona's new immigration law instead for threatening a boycott.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Califronia deserves the fiscal mess that they are in!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38048981/ns/politics-more_politics/?GT1=43001

I feel bad for "AW-NOLD"...he is fighting a losing battle.

[PonyUP]

You would think that California would jump on board with Arizona's new immigration law instead for threatening a boycott.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Califronia deserves the fiscal mess that they are in!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38048981/ns/politics-more_politics/?GT1=43001

I feel bad for "AW-NOLD"...he is fighting a losing battle.

That was probably the scariest video I have ever seen. How demeaning he was to legitimate citizan's voicing legitimate concerns, makes me ashamed.

All California Politicians, including the Governator suck, they add to the problem. I will admit I voted for Obama. I had two problems with McCain, if he had run the actual Maverick campaign that he ran in 2000, I would have voted in a heart beat. He was liberal enough on the issues I cared about and conservative enough on the things I held dear.

But in 2008, he cowtowed to the conservative base because the RNC told him, so all of a sudden he kept going a little more right. That didn't bug me though, what really bugged me was his first major decision was choosing a Vice President that had never read a newspaper.

However this does not make me an Obama supporter either, it probably would have been better to abstain from the vote. But what really hurts our system is the lack of choices. The two party system hurts us.

I would venture to say that my Republican friends on this site don't agree with ALL of the right wing conservatism, things like Faith Based Financing and such

And I would venture to say my Dem friends here don't agree with all the Left wing change the world crap.

Why is it impossible to have more voices heard in Presidential elections. Again it's campaign finance reform, those extra parties can't get the monetary backing to make a serious run. As such we are left with 2 defunct parties.

As far as some of the interesting debates on this site, my bet is there is more that unites us than divides us.

I'm a Liberal, but
I also believe in my right to own a gun
I believe our troops need to come home and defend our border instead of fighting for rights of a group of people that will bomb us in another 10 years anyway
I believe the spending has gotten out of hand by both parties. Let's not forget the first bail out was a bill proposed by McCain and voted on for Bush, but then Obama opened the floodgates
I believe in reducing taxes
And I believe in freedom for every legal citizan and imprisonment for every illlegal one

But I also believe we need more government involvement and oversite in banking, and education.
I believe we need to have programs to research alternative energy
And the Bottom Line is we need someone in charge, not someone who can make a good speech

Rant over, thank you for listening. Sad Sad video Joe, I am embarrassed to have that schmuck in my party that is headed to hell in a handbasket

[kernie]

"For profit V. non-profit"

I don't understand the "we can't {the government} do it" mentality that prevades this board. The prevailing thoughts around here seem to be that private enterprise is better than the more goverment run {:eek:, notice i'm avoiding that bad word that starts with a S, he he} programs.

Who runs the police, fire and education systems?

Would it be better to let a haliberton type run these things?

How is the privativation of some prison services working?


Now there is room for both, here everyone pays for the education system though thier taxes. If you want little johnny to have more than the public system can offer you can sent him to private schools, at your own coin, no opting out of the pubic system allowed.

Same can work for healthcare, here the rich have a better option than the public system can offer. If i'm rich and am told i have cancer i can avoid our public systems delays and get an appointment much sooner in detroit.

But you have to have a strong public system that serves 90+% of the population, the words "pre-existing conditions" need to vanish and everyone, everyone has access to decent healthcare when needed.

Just my two cents, do i have a dog in this fight as i was recently asked? no, do i need one?

:beer:

[PonyUP]

"For profit V. non-profit"

I don't understand the "we can't {the government} do it" mentality that prevades this board. The prevailing thoughts around here seem to be that private enterprise is better than the more goverment run {:eek:, notice i'm avoiding that bad word that starts with a S, he he} programs.

Who runs the police, fire and education systems?

Would it be better to let a haliberton type run these things?

How is the privativation of some prison services working?


Now there is room for both, here everyone pays for the education system though thier taxes. If you want little johnny to have more than the public system can offer you can sent him to private schools, at your own coin, no opting out of the pubic system allowed.

Same can work for healthcare, here the rich have a better option than the public system can offer. If i'm rich and am told i have cancer i can avoid our public systems delays and get an appointment much sooner in detroit.

But you have to have a strong public system that serves 90+% of the population, the words "pre-existing conditions" need to vanish and everyone, everyone has access to decent healthcare when needed.

Just my two cents, do i have a dog in this fight as i was recently asked? no, do i need one?

:beer:

I think there are things that need Government involvement, but other things that don't. Healthcare was broken, but the current plan doesn't fix. It also doesn't put a cap on healthcare costs. As such, like everything else, if it's costing more money they'll need to charge more money. So my question is who is going to pay for

The single mother of 8 who is on welfare receiving foodstamps in governmetn housing and isn't working but is collecting unemployment.

she for damn sure doesn't have the cash, so who ends up paying for her? Me, that I'm not cool with, because there is absolutely no insentive for her to go out and get a job. She can sit home on her fat arse all day long eating cheetohs and watching Dr Phil, and when she has a heart attack I have pay her medical bills, and her welfare and all that crap.

Healthcare needs to remain privatized but adhere to certain governemnt oversight, like caps on malpractice lawsuits, incurance oversight and more. But having it run by the government is a recipe for disaster.

[MrBluGruv]

Who runs the police, fire and education systems?

I gotta say, public education in this country is by and large a failure.

That is all. :)

[Joe Walsh]

Whenever the government gets involved in anything they immediately create several more government agencies.
Even though there are existing agencies that already cover the same thing.
Then they hire 3 times as many people as is needed, then they pay those employees a lot of money and give them incredible benefits.
(Good example is the TSA...Bush was an idiot for creating that BS agency! Same lame employees only now they get payed/bene'd way better.)
The agencies never get disbanded, even if their purpose is complete/osolete/not needed.
You end up with HUGE inefficient, ever expanding, tax gobbling government agencies.

[Joe Walsh]

That was probably the scariest video I have ever seen. How demeaning he was to legitimate citizan's voicing legitimate concerns, makes me ashamed.

All California Politicians, including the Governator suck, they add to the problem. I will admit I voted for Obama. I had two problems with McCain, if he had run the actual Maverick campaign that he ran in 2000, I would have voted in a heart beat. He was liberal enough on the issues I cared about and conservative enough on the things I held dear.

But in 2008, he cowtowed to the conservative base because the RNC told him, so all of a sudden he kept going a little more right. That didn't bug me though, what really bugged me was his first major decision was choosing a Vice President that had never read a newspaper.

However this does not make me an Obama supporter either, it probably would have been better to abstain from the vote. But what really hurts our system is the lack of choices. The two party system hurts us.

I would venture to say that my Republican friends on this site don't agree with ALL of the right wing conservatism, things like Faith Based Financing and such

And I would venture to say my Dem friends here don't agree with all the Left wing change the world crap.

Why is it impossible to have more voices heard in Presidential elections. Again it's campaign finance reform, those extra parties can't get the monetary backing to make a serious run. As such we are left with 2 defunct parties.

As far as some of the interesting debates on this site, my bet is there is more that unites us than divides us.

I'm a Liberal, but
I also believe in my right to own a gun
I believe our troops need to come home and defend our border instead of fighting for rights of a group of people that will bomb us in another 10 years anyway
I believe the spending has gotten out of hand by both parties. Let's not forget the first bail out was a bill proposed by McCain and voted on for Bush, but then Obama opened the floodgates
I believe in reducing taxes
And I believe in freedom for every legal citizan and imprisonment for every illlegal one

But I also believe we need more government involvement and oversite in banking, and education.
I believe we need to have programs to research alternative energy
And the Bottom Line is we need someone in charge, not someone who can make a good speech

Rant over, thank you for listening.
Sad Sad video Joe, I am embarrassed to have that schmuck in my party that is headed to hell in a handbasket

You know, I don't care what party he was from.
Both Republican and the Democratic parties SUCK.
They each end up fighting over which gets the biggest piece of OUR pie and could care less about us.

Personally, If I was at that town meeting, I would have 'beatch' slapped that MF'r if he kept up his attitude.
(Of course I would now be in prison for assaulting a lofty and valuable Congressman!)

You are right, the political 2 party system is broken and we need to get ALL of these worthless turds out of office!
They are in Washington to set up their little kingdoms and make as much money as they can...not to represent what a majority of their constituents want.

[FordNut]

"For profit V. non-profit"

I don't understand the "we can't {the government} do it" mentality that prevades this board. The prevailing thoughts around here seem to be that private enterprise is better than the more goverment run {:eek:, notice i'm avoiding that bad word that starts with a S, he he} programs.

Who runs the police, fire and education systems?

Would it be better to let a haliberton type run these things?

How is the privativation of some prison services working?

Actually privatization is working quite well. And the government should be working more like corporations, outsourcing many functions (such as student loans) but instead they're taking those functions out of the private sector and transferring them to the public sector. Their bookkeeping gimmicks make it look like it saves money but they didn't account for the administrative expenses: new government employees with their expensive government benefits.

Privatize the IRS and it will become much more efficient. And customer service will improve.


Now there is room for both, here everyone pays for the education system though thier taxes. If you want little johnny to have more than the public system can offer you can sent him to private schools, at your own coin, no opting out of the pubic system allowed.

Same can work for healthcare, here the rich have a better option than the public system can offer. If i'm rich and am told i have cancer i can avoid our public systems delays and get an appointment much sooner in detroit.

But Canadians are clamoring for America to have the same inefficient health care program as they have, so I guess y'all are just pissed off that the rich Canadians are able to cross the border and not have to wait. Just keep pushing the Americans to wreck their system so we'll all have to wait. Except the very rich who can afford to go to Europe for their healthcare needs.


I gotta say, public education in this country is by and large a failure.

That is all. :)
As well as the others, not always due to services provided but due to unsustainable expenses for generous fringe benefits. And the Post Office is another example of a "broke" government enterprise. How about the DOT? Ever tried to get anything done with the Social Security Administration? Good luck!

[kernie]

I gotta say, public education in this country is by and large a failure.

That is all. :)
So whats the alternative? Who will pay for the bottom 25%, the heck with these poor folks?

Put a large private company in charge?

[kernie]

Actually privatization is working quite well. And the government should be working more like corporations, outsourcing many functions (such as student loans) but instead they're taking those functions out of the private sector and transferring them to the public sector. Their bookkeeping gimmicks make it look like it saves money but they didn't account for the administrative expenses: new government employees with their expensive government benefits.

Privatize the IRS and it will become much more efficient. And customer service will improve.


But Canadians are clamoring for America to have the same inefficient health care program as they have, so I guess y'all are just pissed off that the rich Canadians are able to cross the border and not have to wait. Just keep pushing the Americans to wreck their system so we'll all have to wait. Except the very rich who can afford to go to Europe for their healthcare needs.


As well as the others, not always due to services provided but due to unsustainable expenses for generous fringe benefits. And the Post Office is another example of a "broke" government enterprise. How about the DOT? Ever tried to get anything done with the Social Security Administration? Good luck!
Ya that's it.:shake:

[FordNut]

I'll go a step further on Government's "help"... IMO the government is the primary cause of the housing bubble and subsequent bust, as well as the financial turmoil we find ourselves in.

Why? Liberal policies pushing lenders to make risky loans to people who can't afford to buy a house because it's not fair that "everybody" can't have their own house. So money flows freely to people who don't have a hope to pay it back. Then the demand for houses grows so the price goes up. Since the price is high, it's very profitable for developers to build houses so there are tons of new housing starts. All of these new houses raise property values so the tax base goes up. Since the government has more money from the increased taxes, they spend it and commit to spend it forever.

Then reality hits home and people can't pay the loans for their houses. Then the financial sector crashes because they aren't getting paid. Since the houses already out there aren't being paid for, the construction companies tank because they can't sell new units they build. Then the construction workers are out of work and need additional government aid, but in the meantime the tax base has crashed.

I feel better already, I'm confident the government is going to take care of us...

[kernie]

I'll go a step further on Government's "help"... IMO the government is the primary cause of the housing bubble and subsequent bust, as well as the financial turmoil we find ourselves in.

Why? Liberal policies pushing lenders to make risky loans to people who can't afford to buy a house because it's not fair that "everybody" can't have their own house. So money flows freely to people who don't have a hope to pay it back. Then the demand for houses grows so the price goes up. Since the price is high, it's very profitable for developers to build houses so there are tons of new housing starts. All of these new houses raise property values so the tax base goes up. Since the government has more money from the increased taxes, they spend it and commit to spend it forever.

Then reality hits home and people can't pay the loans for their houses. Then the financial sector crashes because they aren't getting paid. Since the houses already out there aren't being paid for, the construction companies tank because they can't sell new units they build. Then the construction workers are out of work and need additional government aid, but in the meantime the tax base has crashed.

I feel better already, I'm confident the government is going to take care of us...
Well here liberals told the bank types that you had to have 25% down or you have to have morgage insurance, also you can't just walk away if your house falls in value.

Result, well my house has gone up in value at least 10% in each of the last 3 years, what housing crisis?

[CBT]

"For profit V. non-profit"

I don't understand the "we can't {the government} do it" mentality that prevades this board. The prevailing thoughts around here seem to be that private enterprise is better than the more goverment run {:eek:, notice i'm avoiding that bad word that starts with a S, he he} programs.

Who runs the police, fire and education systems?

Would it be better to let a haliberton type run these things?

How is the privativation of some prison services working?


Now there is room for both, here everyone pays for the education system though thier taxes. If you want little johnny to have more than the public system can offer you can sent him to private schools, at your own coin, no opting out of the pubic system allowed.

Same can work for healthcare, here the rich have a better option than the public system can offer. If i'm rich and am told i have cancer i can avoid our public systems delays and get an appointment much sooner in detroit.

But you have to have a strong public system that serves 90+% of the population, the words "pre-existing conditions" need to vanish and everyone, everyone has access to decent healthcare when needed.

Just my two cents, do i have a dog in this fight as i was recently asked? no, do i need one?

:beer:
The localities do, not the U.S. Government. If the U.S. Government ran every local police, rescue, and education system, oh my God.

[kernie]

The localities do, not the U.S. Government. If the U.S. Government ran every local police, rescue, and education system, oh my God.
Well of course you can take it down to the state level under a general guidelines umbrella, as they do here with the provinces.

:beer:

[MrBluGruv]

So whats the alternative? Who will pay for the bottom 25%, the heck with these poor folks?

Put a large private company in charge?


That's not a serious argument in its favor though. Obviously there really is no easy way to provide a service like this to everyone, but the bottom line is it is a (local/regionally) government-controlled program, and it is pretty sad.

Just a failure we all have to live with should we choose not to opt out for private schooling. :(

[kernie]

That's not a serious argument in its favor though. Obviously there really is no easy way to provide a service like this to everyone, but the bottom line is it is a (local/regionally) government-controlled program, and it is pretty sad.

Just a failure we all have to live with should we choose not to opt out for private schooling. :(
You know what, education and healthcare are not all that different, why should you pay taxes that send those 5 kids to school from that welfare mother? Acually 99% of the people that live in that nieghbourhood take more than they give. To heck with them, lets privatize education and if the bottom 25% can't pay the fees, well that's thier problem.

Anyone think that's a good idea?

:) :beer:

[CBT]

You know what, education and healthcare are not all that different, why should you pay taxes that send those 5 kids to school from that welfare mother? Acually 99% of the people that live in that nieghbourhood take more than they give. To heck with them, lets privatize education and if the bottom 25% can't pay the fees, well that's thier problem.

Anyone think that's a good idea?

:) :beer:
:beer:I think it's the best thing you ever wrote, and I like a lot of what you write!!:beer:
If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em!

[FordNut]

You know what, education and healthcare are not all that different, why should you pay taxes that send those 5 kids to school from that welfare mother? Acually 99% of the people that live in that nieghbourhood take more than they give. To heck with them, lets privatize education and if the bottom 25% can't pay the fees, well that's thier problem.

Anyone think that's a good idea?

:) :beer:


:beer:I think it's the best thing you ever wrote, and I like a lot of what you write!!:beer:
If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em!

Great idea! The current system (welfare state) provides too much incentive for failure.

[jerrym3]

Well, at least now when we dial 911 for an emergency, we're not getting India, which we would if corporations ran the police department.

The government is better at running some things.

It's the pork that kills them.

[CBT]

Great idea! The current system (welfare state) provides too much incentive for failure.

I wonder if welfare will be deemed "too big to fail" and we get slammed for that, too.

[PonyUP]

I wonder if welfare will be deemed "too big to fail" and we get slammed for that, too.

the problem is Welfare has already failed by providing no insentive for the lazy to get back to work and protect the hardworking people that want to work

[CBT]

the problem is Welfare has already failed by providing no insentive for the lazy to get back to work and protect the hardworking people that want to work

I get spun up about it, but I know there are some people who need it/earned it, it's the abusers that drive me batty.

[FordNut]

the problem is Welfare has already failed by providing no insentive for the lazy to get back to work and protect the hardworking people that want to work

And even worse, people who have been taught to work hard and not take a handout see their friends getting more from government handouts than they're getting from hard work. Helps bring others down to the lower level, sort of like the deterioration of the educational system.

My stepdaughter said to me a few days ago, "I'm tired of working so hard to pay my way when my friend is getting a better lifestyle from government handouts (foodstamps, welfare, medicaid, etc) so I'm just going to quit my job at the deli and go on welfare."

[PonyUP]

And even worse, people who have been taught to work hard and not take a handout see their friends getting more from government handouts than they're getting from hard work. Helps bring others down to the lower level, sort of like the deterioration of the educational system.

My stepdaughter said to me a few days ago, "I'm tired of working so hard to pay my way when my friend is getting a better lifestyle from government handouts (foodstamps, welfare, medicaid, etc) so I'm just going to quit my job at the deli and go on welfare."

Yup, and that's the kind of thing that drives me batty. There are people out there truly struggling and need these programs to feed their families while times are tough, and then there are people that take everything they can get so they can get more daytime television and McDonald's.

What's wrong with asking them to provide proof they ahve been looking for a job in order to maintain benefits after a certain time?

I look at the Octomom moron that just wanted to be famous, so she got insurance to cover insemination of all those eggs when there was no unearthly way she could afford the children, and my head starts to spin like I'm sniffing the gas coming into the cabin of Bazzle's ride

[FordNut]

I look at the Octomom moron that just wanted to be famous, so she got insurance to cover insemination of all those eggs when there was no unearthly way she could afford the children, and my head starts to spin like I'm sniffing the gas coming into the cabin of Bazzle's ride

With Obamacare we'll be on the hook for lots more of these.

[PonyUP]

With Obamacare we'll be on the hook for lots more of these.

Boy that's the truth. I've really changed my mind about this. Originally I was in favor of a healthcare overhaul and reform, but then I see how once again it asks the middle class to foot the bill while the rich find a loop hole and the poor (not all the poor) take advantage

[CBT]

Interesting........

Obama Bypassing Senate For Medicare Chief

Dr. Donald Berwick Criticized By GOP



http://www.ktvu.com/2007/1010/14312750_240X180.jpg
http://www.ktvu.com/sh/cox/enlarge_image_btn.jpg

(http://www.ktvu.com/news/24162308/detail.html#)

ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer


Posted: 4:30 pm PDT July 6, 2010Updated: 3:22 am PDT July 7, 2010
WASHINGTON -- Bypassing Republicans eager to grill an administration official over the new health care law, President Barack Obama is planning to appoint the head of Medicare and Medicaid without Senate hearings.
Obama intends to use a so-called recess appointment to put Dr. Donald Berwick in charge of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, a White House official said Tuesday night. The appointment was expected Wednesday.
The decision means Berwick, an expert on patient care, can assume the post without being confirmed by the Senate, which is in recess for the July Fourth holiday. He could serve through next year without Senate confirmation.
Republicans had indicated they were prepared to oppose him over comments he had made on rationing of medical care and other matters. Democrats wanted to avoid a nasty confirmation fight that could reopen the health care debate. Berwick was nominated in April but no confirmation hearing had been scheduled.
"Many Republicans in Congress have made it clear in recent weeks that they were going to stall the nomination as long as they could, solely to score political points," White House communications director Dan Pfeiffer wrote in a post on the White House blog. "But with the agency facing new responsibilities to protect seniors' care under the Affordable Care Act, there's no time to waste with Washington game-playing."
The decision to use a recess appointment to skirt the Senate drew fire from Republicans even though the tool had been used frequently by presidents of both political parties. Obama last made a batch of recess appointments in March, and he was to make two other less prominent appointments Wednesday, one to a pension board and the other to a science post, the White House said.
"This recess appointment is an insult to the American people," Sen. John Barrasso, R-Wyo., said in a statement. "Dr. Berwick is a self-professed supporter of rationing health care and he won't even have to explain his views to the American people in a congressional hearing."
The Senate Republican leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, said, "The fact that this administration won't allow the man charged with implementing the president's plan to cut $500 billion out of Medicare to testify about his plans for the care of our nation's seniors is truly outrageous."
Berwick, 63, is a pediatrician, Harvard University professor and leader of a health care nonprofit organization who's drawn support from many quarters, including the American Medical Association, since his nomination to oversee the enormous Medicare and Medicaid health insurance plans for the elderly, poor and disabled.
He's been criticized by Republicans for a number of comments, including telling an interviewer last year: "The decision is not whether or not we will ration care - the decision is whether we will ration with our eyes open. And right now, we are doing it blindly."
Republicans have seized on that to cast Berwick as someone who would deny needed care based on cost, while supporters contend rationing already is done by insurance companies and Berwick simply wants transparency and accountability in medical decisions.
It's just those echoes of last year's acrimonious health care debate that Democrats would prefer not to replay on the Senate floor.
Medicare has been without an administrator since 2006, and the White House says the need to fill the post is critical because of its role in implementing the new health care law. Medicare is to be a key testing ground for numerous aspects of the new law, from developing new medical techniques to trying out new payment systems, and the White House says a permanent leader is key with deadlines approaching.
In addition to his professorship at Harvard, Berwick is the president of the Institute for Healthcare Improvement, a nonprofit in Cambridge, Mass., that works to develop and implement concepts for improving patient care.
Also being appointed Wednesday are:
-Philip E. Coyle III as associate director for national security and international affairs at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.
-Joshua Gotbaum as director of the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

[FordNut]

Hurry up 2012!

[CBT]

Virginia! It's for lovers! And our flag has a boobie on it!

RICHMOND
U.S. District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson has denied the Obama administration's motion to dismiss Virginia's challenge to the federal health care overhaul package, meaning the case brought by Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli will continue.
A mandate in the federal plan requiring those without insurance to purchase it in the coming years or face a financial penalty is one of the key conflicts in the case.
Federal attorney Ian Gershengorn argued during a July 1 hearing before Hudson that Virginia lacked the legal standing to challenge the case, claiming an individual without health insurance coverage could suffer a financial injury and seek relief from the courts, not a state.
Further, he told the court, imposing such a condition falls within Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce because at some point all people will have a medical need that will require costly care, whether or not they are insured.
Cuccinelli, who was present at the hearing but deferred oral arguments to his staff, contends that he has legal standing to challenge the federal policy because the individual coverage provision clashes with a new state law exempting Virginians from such mandates.
It is his job as attorney general, Cuccinelli asserts, to defend Virginia statutes. The attorney general also argues that Congress exceeded its authority to regulate commerce by imposing the insurance mandate. In addition to Cuccinelli's suit, several other states have joined together in a challenge of the federal health care plan.
Hudson wrote in his Aug. 2 opinion that the murky question of "whether or not Congress has the power to regulate -- and tax -- a citizen's decision not to participate in interstate commerce" is one that hasn't been "squarely addressed" by federal courts.
And because both sides made cogent legal arguments on that point, Hudson added, he has declined to toss the case out of court.
Hudson's opinion concluded with a call for a hearing on the merits of both sides' claims.

[MMBLUE]

Boy that's the truth. I've really changed my mind about this. Originally I was in favor of a healthcare overhaul and reform, but then I see how once again it asks the middle class to foot the bill while the rich find a loop hole and the poor (not all the poor) take advantage

( A ray of light shinning bright with angels surrounding his head encompassing the thought of realization) HALLEYLUYA,(sp)

[LIGHTNIN1]

CBT, that Judge Hudson is an American hero and all he is doing is his job. As Nancy Pelosi said, We do not know what is in the bill. I hope the people who passed it have to eat it.

[SC Cheesehead]

Socialized Medicine. Here's what we can look forward to:

A Swedish man was forced to have his ***** amputated after waiting more than a year to learn he had cancer.
http://www.thelocal.se/31130/20101229/

[duhtroll]

Yep. One incident determines the course of an entire system, and anything not even remotely related to it in other countries.

We all know doctors under a for-profit system never make mistakes.

http://www.wlky.com/r/17550187/detail.html


Socialized Medicine. Here's what we can look forward to:

A Swedish man was forced to have his ***** amputated after waiting more than a year to learn he had cancer.
http://www.thelocal.se/31130/20101229/

[SC Cheesehead]

Yep. One incident determines the course of an entire system, and anything not even remotely related to it in other countries.

We all know doctors under a for-profit system never make mistakes.

http://www.wlky.com/r/17550187/detail.html

Oh, you're just no fun... ;)

[Hotrauder]

Oh, you're just no fun... ;)


Lets see, Rex, this could be a tall order for Cheesehead Medical, LLC. but I love a win win- a hooha implant for the Swede and a personality injection for Duhtroll. Go for it. Dennis:beer:

[SC Cheesehead]

Lets see, Rex, this could be a tall order for Cheesehead Medical, LLC. but I love a win win- a hooha implant for the Swede and a personality injection for Duhtroll. Go for it. Dennis:beer:

Jocularity! :D

[prg333]

Why is this a topic on a board about The Mercury Marauder!?!??

"Obama Care" as it is called IS NOT BY ANY MEANS A GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH PROGRAM LIKE IN CANADA OR EUROPE! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

The VERY SAME plan Obama passed that has been DEMONIZED by FOX and Rush, Sean, etc was IN FACT ALMOST THE IDENTICAL the same plan the GOP Robert Dole proposed BACK IN THE 90'S!

[SC Cheesehead]

Why is this a topic on a board about The Mercury Marauder!?!??

"Obama Care" as it is called IS NOT BY ANY MEANS A GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH PROGRAM LIKE IN CANADA OR EUROPE! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

The VERY SAME plan Obama passed that has been DEMONIZED by FOX and Rush, Sean, etc was IN FACT ALMOST THE IDENTICAL the same plan the GOP Robert Dole proposed BACK IN THE 90'S!


So, that makes it a good thing? :rolleyes:

[CWright]

Why is this a topic on a board about The Mercury Marauder!?!??

"Obama Care" as it is called IS NOT BY ANY MEANS A GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH PROGRAM LIKE IN CANADA OR EUROPE! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

The VERY SAME plan Obama passed that has been DEMONIZED by FOX and Rush, Sean, etc was IN FACT ALMOST THE IDENTICAL the same plan the GOP Robert Dole proposed BACK IN THE 90'S!


I don't care who proposed it. Democrat or GOP! I DON'T want the gov telling me I have to buy something or penalizing me if I don't. This just gives them a foot hold on more things to come. I pay enough in taxes each year and the ENTITLEMENT programs out here are pitiful! TOO MUCH WASTE. People should carry their own weight instead riding the backs of hard working Americans. I'll take care of myself and my family because it is MY RESPONSIBILITY! Not other people! I heard it said best a few months ago... "I don't mind taking care of the HELPLESS but I DO NOT want to take care of the HOPELESS!"

If you fish for a man you feed him for a day, TEACH him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

[SC Cheesehead]

I don't care who proposed it. Democrat or GOP! I DON'T want the gov telling me I have to buy something or penalizing me if I don't. This just gives them a foot hold on more things to come. I pay enough in taxes each year and the ENTITLEMENT programs out here are pitiful! TOO MUCH WASTE. People should carry their own weight instead riding the backs of hard working Americans. I'll take care of myself and my family because it is MY RESPONSIBILITY! Not other people! I heard it said best a few months ago... "I don't mind taking care of the HELPLESS but I DO NOT want to take care of the HOPELESS!"

If you fish for a man you feed him for a day, TEACH him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Elect a liberal, he'll create a government fishing agency to oversee the catching of fish, and will appoint a fish distribution czar to take some (most) of the fish you've caught and give them to those folks who really don't care to fish for their own... :rolleyes:

[CWright]

Elect a liberal, he'll create a government fishing agency to oversee the catching of fish, and will appoint a fish distribution czar to take some (most) of the fish you've caught and give them to those folks who really don't care to fish for their own... :rolleyes:

AMEN!! :lol: :D

[Haggis]

I don't care who proposed it. Democrat or GOP! I DON'T want the gov telling me I have to buy something or penalizing me if I don't. This just gives them a foot hold on more things to come. I pay enough in taxes each year and the ENTITLEMENT programs out here are pitiful! TOO MUCH WASTE. People should carry their own weight instead riding the backs of hard working Americans. I'll take care of myself and my family because it is MY RESPONSIBILITY! Not other people! I heard it said best a few months ago... "I don't mind taking care of the HELPLESS but I DO NOT want to take care of the HOPELESS!"

If you fish for a man you feed him for a day, TEACH him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.


Elect a liberal, he'll create a government fishing agency to oversee the catching of fish, and will appoint a fish distribution czar to take some (most) of the fish you've caught and give them to those folks who really don't care to fish for their own... :rolleyes:

But, I don't like fish. Can I have something else for dinner?

[SC Cheesehead]

But, I don't like fish. Can I have something else for dinner?

Don't get me started on that issue ...:mad2:

[Vortex]

For profit medicine is a scam; there is just so much love for insurance companies and their shareholders. Anyone who doesnt believe insurance companies do not "ration" healthcare is, well, delusional. When you cant afford a premium, or cannot make a copay, or get dropped for a preexisting condition, or go broke paying non-covered expenses, you are being "rationed". Its almost funny how questioning the principal of getting a few people filthy rich off our present system is so socialistic and unAmerican.

[SC Cheesehead]

For profit medicine is a scam; there is just so much love for insurance companies and their shareholders. Anyone who doesnt believe insurance companies do not "ration" healthcare is, well, delusional. When you cant afford a premium, or cannot make a copay, or get dropped for a preexisting condition, or go broke paying non-covered expenses, you are being "rationed". Its almost funny how questioning the principal of getting a few people filthy rich off our present system is so socialistic and unAmerican.

Statistics contradict your statement:


2009 Net Profit Margin of Healthcare Insurers
Aetna: 3.7% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&Symbol=US%3aAET)
Wellpoint: 7.3% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=wlp)
Cigna: 7.1% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=ci)
United Health: 3.7% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=unh)
Humana: 3.4% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=hum)
Healthnet: -0.3% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=hnt)
Healthspring: 5.0% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=hs)
Coventry Health Care: 2.3% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=cvh)
Molina Healthcare:0.8% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=moh)
United American Corp: 2.7% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=moh)
Unum Group: 8.4% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=unm)

Median: 3.7%
http://larrycheng.com/2010/03/08/just-how-profitable-are-healthcare-insurers/

Second, Health insurance companies do not "ration" health care, they are merely a mechanism for providing payment for health care services. Physicians and hospitals provide health care services, and a substantial portion of those services are given without remuneration, so contrary to what is often stated, if an individual requires medical attention, it is available.

I'm not defending health insurance companies by any means, but to make them the bad guys to justify transitioning to a government-run health care system may be misdirected.

IMO, one of the major factors in the escalating heath care costs over the past 15 years has been increased government regulation and mandates. My wife is a Medical Lab Tech, and emperically, she's seen paperwork requirements more than double with no generated benefit. Add to that onerous malpractice settlements that often generate excessive or unnecessary tests or procedues in an effort for physicians to CYA, and you've got a bad situation that's getting worse.

And the cynic in me says there's virtually nothing the government can do better, more effectively, or cheaper, than the private sector. What we have ain't great by any means, but I don't think handing it off to the government to "fix" is the answer.

[guspech750]

All I have to say is why should I and other working citizens have to pay for lazy sob's, drug addicts, women who can keep their legs closed and illegal aliens or someone who just doesn't want inssurance. There is not one good reason we have to foot the bill and reward losers.

[Bluerauder]

And the cynic in me says there's ABSOLUTELY nothing the government can do better, more effectively, or cheaper, than the private sector.

There ^^^^^ Rex... I fixed it for you. ;)

[SC Cheesehead]

There ^^^^^ Rex... I fixed it for you. ;)

BIG +1 on that, Charlie. :2thumbs:

[duhtroll]

Two things.

1) Don't think you were not already paying for the uninsured. When deadbeats need care, who do you think pays that bill? You think the hospital just eats that cost? Or do they do like every other business and pass that cost along to everyone else?

That is why a band aid at the hospital costs $17. It is OK though because you get a free dose of MRSA.

I visited Mayo a few years ago. I got my bill and it was approximately $110,000. My insurance ended up paying about 10% of that cost to settle the bill - meaning if I did not have insurance, the services I required cost over $100K, but since I had insurance, they only cost $10K?

No, I am not talking about copay. I was already at my max for the year, so I did not pay a dime. The hospital received just north of $10K for my services, but my bill read over $110K.

Something doesn't quite add up there.

2) Looking at profit margins for insurance is misleading when all they really do is funnel money from one place to another. They don't provide care or really do anything other than deny coverage (natch!)

Granted, it is listed in a blog but the article has some interesting info:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/03/health_care_reform


Statistics contradict your statement:


2009 Net Profit Margin of Healthcare Insurers
Aetna: 3.7% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&Symbol=US%3aAET)
Wellpoint: 7.3% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=wlp)
Cigna: 7.1% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=ci)
United Health: 3.7% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=unh)
Humana: 3.4% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=hum)
Healthnet: -0.3% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=hnt)
Healthspring: 5.0% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=hs)
Coventry Health Care: 2.3% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=cvh)
Molina Healthcare:0.8% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=moh)
United American Corp: 2.7% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=moh)
Unum Group: 8.4% (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/compare.asp?Page=TenYearSummar y&symbol=unm)

Median: 3.7%
http://larrycheng.com/2010/03/08/just-how-profitable-are-healthcare-insurers/

Second, Health insurance companies do not "ration" health care, they are merely a mechanism for providing payment for health care services. Physicians and hospitals provide health care services, and a substantial portion of those services are given without remuneration, so contrary to what is often stated, if an individual requires medical attention, it is available.

I'm not defending health insurance companies by any means, but to make them the bad guys to justify transitioning to a government-run health care system may be misdirected.

IMO, one of the major factors in the escalating heath care costs over the past 15 years has been increased government regulation and mandates. My wife is a Medical Lab Tech, and emperically, she's seen paperwork requirements more than double with no generated benefit. Add to that onerous malpractice settlements that often generate excessive or unnecessary tests or procedues in an effort for physicians to CYA, and you've got a bad situation that's getting worse.

And the cynic in me says there's virtually nothing the government can do better, more effectively, or cheaper, than the private sector. What we have ain't great by any means, but I don't think handing it off to the government to "fix" is the answer.

[SC Cheesehead]

duhtroll,

Good points, and an excellent article, but again, as stated above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Cheesehead http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=996771#post99 6771)
And the cynic in me says there's ABSOLUTELY nothing the government can do better, more effectively, or cheaper, than the private sector.



There ^^^^^ Rex... I fixed it for you. ;)

[BruteForce]

duhtroll,

Good points, and an excellent article, but again, as stated above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Cheesehead http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=996771#post99 6771)
And the cynic in me says there's ABSOLUTELY nothing the government can do better, more effectively, or cheaper, than the private sector.

Let's see... right off the top of my head... military. Is the private sector better at that? How do the costs compare? I just love generalizations. :lol:

[SC Cheesehead]

Let's see... right off the top of my head... military. Is the private sector better at that? How do the costs compare? I just love generalizations. :lol:

Oops, got me on that one! :o

IIRC, there were some guys a few years back that set up the following deal:

The Congress shall have power—
"To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."
"To borrow money on the credit of the United States. "
"To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes."
"To coin money, regulate the value, thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures."

My copy doesn't have a section about authorizing Obamacare, I must be missing a few pages... :rolleyes:

[CBT]

All I have to say is why should I and other working citizens have to pay for lazy sob's, drug addicts, women who can keep their legs closed andillegal aliens or someone who just doesn't want inssurance. There is not one good reason we have to foot the bill and reward losers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40916445/ns/us_news

These folks will help pay. (copied from the article)


The Hispanic population is projected to nearly triple, to 132.8 million by 2050, when nearly one in three U.S. residents will be Latino, according to a 2008 U.S. Census Bureau study.

[duhtroll]

Oops, got me on that one! :o

IIRC, there were some guys a few years back that set up the following deal:

The Congress shall have power—
"To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."
"To borrow money on the credit of the United States. "
"To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes."
"To coin money, regulate the value, thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures."

My copy doesn't have a section about authorizing Obamacare, I must be missing a few pages... :rolleyes:

Actually it is right in the text you posted.

"General welfare" directly implies that they are responsible for the health of our citizenship.

That could also be interpreted to mean that they could be responsible for providing for all of us, too.

Guess the founding fathers were socialists, after all. :P

[SC Cheesehead]

Actually it is right in the text you posted.

"General welfare" directly implies that they are responsible for the health of our citizenship.

That could also be interpreted to mean that they could be responsible for providing for all of us, too.

Guess the founding fathers were socialists, after all. :P

Revisionist mentality... ;)

[CBT]

Unreal! 59% increase in California. Universal Healthcare? Translation:We just doubled your bill.

http://www.latimes.com/health/healthcare/la-fi-insure-rates-20110106,0,6975599.story

[duhtroll]

Revisionist? OK, you define what "welfare" means. Then tell me it doesn't include health in any way.

Good luck with that one.


Revisionist mentality... ;)

[Leadfoot281]

Revisionist? OK, you define what "welfare" means. Then tell me it doesn't include health in any way.

Good luck with that one.

Provide for the general welfare means;

Free; Food, car insurance, baby sitters, wood splitters, concert tickets, obsolete motorcycle parts, counciling for broken hearts, mouse traps, tattoos, wood working tools, house plants, barn cats, sillly looking hats, ice skates, great first dates, personal trainers, 5 micron strainers, vaccuum cleaner bags, oil change rags, mouse pads, maxi pads, helicopter landing pads, 9/16th sockets, bottle rockets, nachos, sneakers, computer speakers, memory upgrades, first class upgrades, scuba gear, ice cold beer, 12 point deer, health care, welfare, and Obama care.

Or it could just mean that general welfare means we don't have to contend with invading armies.

[SC Cheesehead]

Provide for the general welfare means;

Free; Food, car insurance, baby sitters, wood splitters, concert tickets, obsolete motorcycle parts, counciling for broken hearts, mouse traps, tattoos, wood working tools, house plants, barn cats, sillly looking hats, ice skates, great first dates, personal trainers, 5 micron strainers, vaccuum cleaner bags, oil change rags, mouse pads, maxi pads, helicopter landing pads, 9/16th sockets, bottle rockets, nachos, sneakers, computer speakers, memory upgrades, first class upgrades, scuba gear, ice cold beer, 12 point deer, health care, welfare, and Obama care.

Or it could just mean that general welfare means we don't have to contend with invading armies.

^^^^^ There you go, dt. ^^^^^;)


Somehow I don't think the Founding Fathers were enivsioning Obamacare when they drafted the Constitution...:rolleyes:

[CBT]

Provide for the general welfare means;

Free; Food, car insurance, baby sitters, wood splitters, concert tickets, obsolete motorcycle parts, counciling for broken hearts, mouse traps, tattoos, wood working tools, house plants, barn cats, sillly looking hats, ice skates, great first dates, personal trainers, 5 micron strainers, vaccuum cleaner bags, oil change rags, mouse pads, maxi pads, helicopter landing pads, 9/16th sockets, bottle rockets, nachos, sneakers, computer speakers, memory upgrades, first class upgrades, scuba gear, ice cold beer, 12 point deer, health care, welfare, and Obama care.

Or it could just mean that general welfare means we don't have to contend with invading armies.

Man I had tears in my eyes from laughing by the time I got to 'bottle rockets', that was great! :beer:

[guspech750]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40916445/ns/us_news

These folks will help pay. (copied from the article)


The Hispanic population is projected to nearly triple, to 132.8 million by 2050, when nearly one in three U.S. residents will be Latino, according to a 2008 U.S. Census Bureau study.

Or I guess we could just let all the illegals overrun our country then I will become a "minority" and get free stuff. Problem solved.

[Haggis]

Or I guess we could just let all the illegals overrun our country then I will become a "minority" and get free stuff. Problem solved.

Or we could let the Mexican government just take over.

[MOTOWN]

Or I guess we could just let all the illegals overrun our country then I will become a "minority" and get free stuff. Problem solved.

that day is fast approaching!:shake:

[duhtroll]

But that is just it. Who are you to say what the founding fathers intended by the word "welfare?" Health is part of the definition of welfare. Doesn't change anything. People still only hear what they want to hear.

I am speaking as someone who doesnt see an effect from Obama's plan either way. I just find the bickering to be pointless.


^^^^^ There you go, dt. ^^^^^;)


Somehow I don't think the Founding Fathers were enivsioning Obamacare when they drafted the Constitution...:rolleyes:

[PonyUP]

But that is just it. Who are you to say what the founding fathers intended by the word "welfare?" Health is part of the definition of welfare, so if we are to adhere to the Constitution, the government should have some say in deciding what type of health care we have.

They just read the entire document on the floor of the Congress, right? Doesn't change anything. People still only hear what they want to hear.

I am speaking as someone who doesnt see an effect from Obama's plan either way. I just find the bickering to be pointless.



Well your right, the constitution is open for interpretation, which is why we have judges and the supreme court. The problem is, more and more judges are allowing their personal politics to enter in when ruling on decisions, and I can safely say that is not what the fore-fathers intended. Judges are supposed to interpret and enforce the law, not make policy and their judgements are often clouded by personal politics whether they be conservative, moderate or liberal.

You cannot say that Obamacare does not effect you, our insurance costs have raised to pay for the welfare of the people that do not have insurance, our taxes were raised in the pay for six and get ten plan, it effected everyone.

I am speaking as a Democrat, however I am against Obamacare. We need healthcare reform, we need to make it accessible for everyone (not mandatory) we need a patients bill of rights and we need a cap put on malpractice judgements to prevent the skyrocketing of insurance.

All of this will not happen in the forseeable future because all we do in congress and society is critique the opposing view as evil. We never discuss solutions, hell we even do it on this site. How many posts have you seen demnifying liberals as evil, or demonizing conservatives as nutbags (I have done it as well).

I submit that instead of trying to persuade the other side to see things the same, that we find out where we have middleground and let it grow into a solution that is best for everyone.

We cannot have a radical change as this country just isn't built for that, it takes baby steps. Slavery didn't end with the civil war, that was a start and it took another 100 years to get civil rights laws passed and to desegregate. We need to take constant steps forward and not try to jump. Just my opinion

[duhtroll]

My insurance rates have gone up an average of 10% every year in the last few years, before Obamacare.


Well your right, the constitution is open for interpretation, which is why we have judges and the supreme court. The problem is, more and more judges are allowing their personal politics to enter in when ruling on decisions, and I can safely say that is not what the fore-fathers intended. Judges are supposed to interpret and enforce the law, not make policy and their judgements are often clouded by personal politics whether they be conservative, moderate or liberal.

You cannot say that Obamacare does not effect you, our insurance costs have raised to pay for the welfare of the people that do not have insurance, our taxes were raised in the pay for six and get ten plan, it effected everyone.

I am speaking as a Democrat, however I am against Obamacare. We need healthcare reform, we need to make it accessible for everyone (not mandatory) we need a patients bill of rights and we need a cap put on malpractice judgements to prevent the skyrocketing of insurance.

All of this will not happen in the forseeable future because all we do in congress and society is critique the opposing view as evil. We never discuss solutions, hell we even do it on this site. How many posts have you seen demnifying liberals as evil, or demonizing conservatives as nutbags (I have done it as well).

I submit that instead of trying to persuade the other side to see things the same, that we find out where we have middleground and let it grow into a solution that is best for everyone.

We cannot have a radical change as this country just isn't built for that, it takes baby steps. Slavery didn't end with the civil war, that was a start and it took another 100 years to get civil rights laws passed and to desegregate. We need to take constant steps forward and not try to jump. Just my opinion

[SC Cheesehead]

My insurance rates have gone up an average of 10% every year in the last few years, before Obamacare.



And you're thinking they won't be going up anymore with the enactment of the Healthcare Obomination?

[duhtroll]

I think they will stay the same as they have always been. Preliminary projections show me to be accurate, at least for my own insurance, but I will know for sure in Feb.

Last year they went up 15% and the only real reason we could find is because the provider was building a new office building in Des Moines.


And you're thinking they won't be going up anymore with the enactment of the Healthcare Obomination?