View Full Version : Ticking noise in valvetrain.
ByronRACE
06-09-2010, 09:09 AM
About 1000 miles ago I started hearing a little valvetrain noise at about 1000-1300rpm and it would come and go.
Now, the noise is constant around 1200-1500rpm and coming from the passengers valve cover.
I've been told to run a quart of ATF in the oil for 20 miles and see if it clears it up.
I'm intending to pull the valve cover this weekend and take a look. If someone could provide me with a list of things I should look for (known problem areas) and the torque specs for the fasteners that hold the cam cage (sorry, don't know the proper term), I'll re-torque that while I'm in there.
I plan on turning the motor over by hand and feeling for play when each lobe is on its base circle...for starters.
Please advise, and much thanks!
Byron
Egon Spengler
06-09-2010, 09:13 AM
I have the same tick... would be interested in hearing what others have to say
RF Overlord
06-09-2010, 10:13 AM
I've been told to run a quart of ATF in the oil for 20 miles and see if it clears it up.Sigh...another old wive's tale that refuses to die.
The rumour got started years ago that ATF has a higher detergent level than motor oil. Actually, the reverse is true. An automatic transmission is essentially a sealed system (no air intake) and there are no combustion byproduct or fuel dilution issues to deal with, so ATF does not need, nor does it have, any special cleansing powers.
Unless your motor was abused or neglected by a previous owner (I assume not by YOU ;) ), then you shouldn't need any miracle-in-a-can solutions. What are you using for oil now? When was it changed last?
dohc324ci
06-09-2010, 10:51 AM
hard to say post a clip might help determine.
Recently having to deal with my valve train noise common responses were:
valve guide, lash adjusters and stuck lifters; loose followers can cause valve train noise as well.
It turned out being a collapsed lash adjuster loud tick and loose followers but only after the heads were pulled and sent to the machine shop. We pulled the valve cover and couldnt see anything out of the ordinary.
Blackened300a
06-09-2010, 11:24 AM
My spark plug blow out started as a tick. Check them first.
Egon Spengler
06-09-2010, 11:27 AM
My spark plug blow out started as a tick. Check them first.
I have the tick and all my plugs are tightened. I checked mine when I heard the tick start. Replaced the plugs and now I think I may need to look into coils
Blackened300a
06-09-2010, 11:31 AM
I have the tick and all my plugs are tightened. I checked mine when I heard the tick start. Replaced the plugs and now I think I may need to look into coils
If you have no hesitations or rough idle issues, your coils should be fine. Maybe its the injector ticking that people are picking up on? :confused:
Egon Spengler
06-09-2010, 11:41 AM
If you have no hesitations or rough idle issues, your coils should be fine. Maybe its the injector ticking that people are picking up on? :confused:
I do have rough idle and hesitation though... That is why I am looking into getting a coil and trying it on each plug until it goes away. I have narrowed that down to the passenger side as well
ByronRACE
06-09-2010, 11:51 AM
I will check the plugs tonight. It actually sounds like it may be slightly worse at slightly heavier throttle. I hate to think I've been driving around with a loose plug; all those combustion gasses racing past the threads would not be good.
It sounds like valvetrain noise. I'm very familiar with injector noise; this is not the same.
How much oil does a DOHC spit if one were to start the engine with the valve cover off? Should I think about getting another valve cover to machine an opening into or can I use a sheet of lexan or something as a splash shield to listen to the running engine briefly and locate the noise. I've never done this on a DOHC.
Byron
How much oil does a DOHC spit if one were to start the engine with the valve cover off? Should I think about getting another valve cover to machine an opening into or can I use a sheet of lexan or something as a splash shield to listen to the running engine briefly and locate the noise. I've never done this on a DOHC.
Byron
I wouldnt do that.
Marauderjack
06-09-2010, 02:41 PM
I wouldnt do that.
^^^+10^^^:shake:
ByronRACE
06-09-2010, 03:20 PM
I'd assume you're referring to the running with the cover off, but what about a machined cover with an access slot? Has anyone done this to be able to quickly locate noise on a running valvetrain? If not, I think this could save a lot of time.
B
ImpalaSlayer
06-09-2010, 03:23 PM
I'd assume you're referring to the running with the cover off, but what about a machined cover with an access slot? Has anyone done this to be able to quickly locate noise on a running valvetrain? If not, I think this could save a lot of time.
B
sure if you got enough coin to make something liek that. these arnt stamped steel cover liek the old days, they are cast aluminum and not cheap.
Big Black Beast
06-09-2010, 03:27 PM
How much oil does a DOHC spit if one were to start the engine with the valve cover off? Should I think about getting another valve cover to machine an opening into or can I use a sheet of lexan or something as a splash shield to listen to the running engine briefly and locate the noise. I've never done this on a DOHC.
Byron
If you try this, make sure someone films the results and post them here.:rolleyes:
ByronRACE
06-09-2010, 04:25 PM
I found just such a valve cover that already has the slot carved in it. as well as a splash baffel...my local speed shop already built one and I'm borrowing it this weekend.
If anyone has any tips about what else I should check when I'm in there, please let me know.
ByronRACE
06-10-2010, 09:36 AM
I was in an auto parts store last night and decided to try this snake oil product...
http://www.barsproducts.com/100QR.htm
Noise is gone. We'll see what happens after I change the oil this weekend. Either it modified the viscosity of the oil and solved the problem that way, or it cleaned away varnish/dirt and solved the problem permanently. If the noise returns after an oil change, I guess we can eliminate the cleaning hypothesis.
In any event, I'll wait to pull the cover off until after the oil change. We'll see what happens and I'll report.
Byron
TAKEDOWN
06-10-2010, 09:47 AM
^^^ Hmm... interesting, keep us updated I'm curious myself. ^^^
^^^ Hmm... interesting, keep us updated I'm bi-curious myself. ^^^
Fixed it!
People say Seafoam is snake oil, I use it on the regular. Anything making a mushroom cloud like it does HAS to be knocking crap loose.
RacerX
06-10-2010, 11:22 AM
Weren't you the one that pm'd me saying to use "Seafoam" on your heads making sure the cylinder is thoroughly lubed so that there's less friction on the ring? :D
Weren't you the one that pm'd me saying to use "Seafoam" on your heads making sure the cylinder is thoroughly lubed so that there's less friction on the ring? :D
Who me? Not that I know of. But then again, I tend to drink alot and forget stuff. And sometimes I forget stuff.
RacerX
06-10-2010, 11:35 AM
No "That's what she said!". Wow! :eek::alone: You won't remeber this then! :D
ByronRACE
06-14-2010, 10:07 AM
Checked the plugs on the offending side, all tight, and no carbon tracking. Shiney clean in there.
Reassembled, started engine...noise is gone.
My guess is that this is a coincidence and the noise will return. If not, then I wonder if it's possible that the noise was arcing and manipulating the coils has changed things enough that the arcing has stopped.
Not sure, but I drove to work today and the noise is still gone.
musclemerc
06-14-2010, 11:38 AM
How many miles on the car? What's the maintenence been like?
ByronRACE
06-14-2010, 03:58 PM
60K miles on the car, maintenance has been by the book. Oil changed every 3500 miles. Always motorcraft synthetic.
Car was purchased used with 1500 miles on it so I've owned it since it was virtually new. It was enshrined in a garage after the owner passed briefly after purchase.
musclemerc
06-14-2010, 04:07 PM
I hope it's not the beginning stage of the dreaded dead cylinder. Do you know if it's comming from the rear of the cylinder head? DS? PS?
ByronRACE
06-15-2010, 02:43 PM
I can't tell if it's front or rear. All plugs look even. No oil anywhere. Sounds like valvetrain tapping noise from cover area; not piston slap.
And, the tapping came back...it is never there cold. Noise begins on warm engine.
ByronRACE
06-24-2010, 09:19 AM
After noticing that my valvetrain noise occurs only on a hot engine, I began to wonder if oil viscosity plays a role.
I changed the oil, and changed from 5w20 to 10w30; increasing hot viscosity by 100% and cold viscosity by 50%.
I have driven the car for two legs of my commute so far, and the valvetrain is quieter than it has ever been; and the noise is gone.
Ktorres1
06-24-2010, 10:24 AM
I had a tickin noise that turned into a tapping noise, I leveled it down to the fact that it onle happened when the a/c was cut on and the car hadn't warmed up yet. Turned out to be the pulley tensioner! I will be geting a new one soon for about $50
myrodr
10-16-2010, 07:07 PM
i had light tick in my 03MM now gets louder when hot i think may have spun a rod .
Adam12
10-16-2010, 08:37 PM
mine makes a tapping noise from the passenger side head..... its a bad lifter that bleeds down it comes and goes at times. more so when its hot. im not worried about it...its been making noise for 40k now. you probably have the same issue i have.
I changed the oil, and changed from 5w20 to 10w30; increasing hot viscosity by 100% and cold viscosity by 50%.
That's not the case at all, 10w-30 is only slightly thicker than 5w-20 when hot and while I can't explain it, you and likely most of the other members should hop over to Bob's The Oil Guy and read up on motor oil...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=1
Raven34
10-18-2010, 08:50 PM
That's not the case at all, 10w-30 is only slightly thicker than 5w-20 when hot and while I can't explain it, you and likely most of the other members should hop over to Bob's The Oil Guy and read up on motor oil...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=1
Interesting link! I just read all ten chapters of that and loved it. I knew some of that stuff before I read this just because I learned it in school but this really made it easier. :beer:
RacerX
10-19-2010, 11:57 AM
And this is why I used 5w30 dino oil for my new engine. Dino doesn't get to it's advertised viscosity as fast as synth and people don't realize with these engines and cold climates you would be good with 0w20. I wouldn't use 10w30 though.
RF Overlord
10-19-2010, 12:24 PM
Dino doesn't get to it's advertised viscosity as fast as synth Um...can you explain that a little?
RacerX
10-19-2010, 01:50 PM
0w30 is not as "thick" as 10w30 on cold startup. Pretty simple really. " A main advantage that the synthetic has over the mineral based oil is the ability to lubricate at startup. Both types of oil have the same specifications at 104 F, 212 F and 302 F. It is the startup viscosity characteristics that separate these oils. Synthetic oils do not thicken as much on cooling. They have better fluidity as the temperature drops."
RF Overlord
10-20-2010, 02:16 PM
I'm very well aware of how viscosity changes with temperature, it was just your statement "Dino doesn't get to it's advertised viscosity as fast as synth" that doesn't make any sense. Just because synthetic flows better at very cold temps, doesn't mean it changes viscosity any "faster" as it gets hotter...unless that wasn't what you meant.
RacerX
10-20-2010, 02:34 PM
I'm very well aware of how viscosity changes with temperature, it was just your statement "Dino doesn't get to it's advertised viscosity as fast as synth" that doesn't make any sense. Just because synthetic flows better at very cold temps, doesn't mean it changes viscosity any "faster" as it gets hotter...unless that wasn't what you meant.
I should have been more clear, that it doesn't have to do with temp so much as it's a fuid that behaves differently inherently.
ctrlraven
10-20-2010, 02:46 PM
I had a tick for a while on the front driver's side. Narrowed it down to two noisy injectors. I can't remember the last time I even heard them do it. Did it for a while and then just stopped.
ByronRACE
12-02-2010, 04:01 PM
So, as embarassing as this may be to report, I am going to share what I've learned in hope that it helps someone else.
When changing the oil in my Marauder initially, I would purchase 6 quarts of oil and a filter, do the change, check the oil level and it'd be just over the full mark.
Later on, I changed that habit. I would purchase the motorcraft 5+ quart oil change jug and a motorcraft filter, do the change, run the engine, and check the oil on the dipstick. It read to just under the full mark, and I left it at that.
As it turns out, that is a mistake. My intermittent lash adjuster noise WAS OIL STARVATION.
After speaking with several reputable 4.6L DOHC builders, I discovered that it is common knowledge to use AT LEAST 7 quarts of oil during an oil change, and one shop even suggested 8 is better because you won't have to worry about oil consumption between oil changes putting you into a low oil situation; and the pan/engine can handle 8 without a problem.
One of the many things I tried was Seafoam. I'm convinced now that the immediate noise improvement that occurred by adding seafoam to the oil was the increase in total oil volume, not the Seafoam. I increased capacity half a quart or more, and bingo...no noise because the pump wasn't sucking air. Once the seafoam evaporated or was otherwise consumed, the noise would return.
Long story short, I put another quart of oil into the engine and the noise has been gone now for 2500+ miles. Before this, I had a lot of false positives thinking the problem had been solved but the noise always returned.
So guys, I'm going to stop buying the oil change jugs and start putting 7 quarts in every time I change the oil. I'll report if anything changes.
As for now...6.5qts in the pan = no intermittent noise for 2500+ miles.
Someone just emailed me these 2 references:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/svt-cobra-tech/204935-1998-mustang-cobra-6-quarts-7-quarts-oil.html
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/new-edge-cobras-51/413036-oil-pan-capacity-test-pics.html
I wish I'd have known this sooner. :(
Marauderjack
12-02-2010, 04:15 PM
What???:eek: EIGHT QUARTS????:shake:
That is absolutely one of the craziest things I've ever heard......oil starvation at 6 to 6.5 quarts???:rolleyes: If you are sucking air at the "Full Mark" you have to be driving inverted!!!:eek:
Mine is full "hot" with 6.5 quarts and overfilling it is NOT what you want to do!!:shake:
Sounds to me like the SeaFoam knocked some crud out of a lifter (pad) and the tick cleared up from that!!:beer:
RF Overlord
12-02-2010, 04:21 PM
Byron, I am a little confused.
You say when you used the 5+ quart jug, your oil level was just a little under the full mark. If the oil was anywhere between the add and the full marks, then you had enough oil in the crankcase. The oil pickup is at the very bottom of the pan, so even if you were a couple of quarts low, there would still be enough in the pan to get picked up and circulated. Any problems would only show up during braking, acceleration, or hard cornering.
I find it hard to believe that adding less than one quart (from 5+ to 6) would make a significant difference unless something else was wrong as well...
I'm not trying to flame you...it just doesn't make sense.
Blackened300a
12-02-2010, 04:59 PM
Here's the pickup tube for 4V mod engines. As you can see, you would have to be running below 2 quarts of oil for it to be sucking air. There is also a factory windage tray in the pan that would keep most of the oil within the lower section of the pan. Perhaps you had something stuck in the pickup screen or oil galley that caused the noise that the seafoam cleaned out. Oil starvation was not your issue. I put in 6 qts, start it and then put in another 1/2 which brings it right to the full line.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/pontisteve/Mustangtemporary045.jpg
Chevyguy
12-03-2010, 03:40 AM
I found it very hard to get a good oil level reading on my Marauder.
Best way is to check it when pulling the dipstick after the engine has sat for several min, just pull the stick and read. Even pull wipe replace, pull read gets oil all over the stick.
My first oil change was a PIA as I had 2 5 qt jugs and remembered as draining the oil, o jeez it takes 6 qts.
computertech
12-03-2010, 04:37 AM
I have owned a total of 4 Marauders,all but 1 had the tick,I always changed the oil between 3000-5000miles tops with either 5w/20 Motorcraft Synthetic Blend or (now) I use Mobil1..... I have always used 6qts..I assumed this was an inherent problem with our motors as I have heard from other owners of the same issue. Blackened300a what viscosity do you recommend in this climate ? Do you think 0w/20 is a good idea ? Its getting cold outside,tg for remote start.
fastblackmerc
12-03-2010, 05:04 AM
I have owned a total of 4 Marauders,all but 1 had the tick,I always changed the oil between 3000-5000miles tops with either 5w/20 Motorcraft Synthetic Blend or (now) I use Mobil1..... I have always used 6qts..I assumed this was an inherent problem with our motors as I have heard from other owners of the same issue. Blackened300a what viscosity do you recommend in this climate ? Do you think 0w/20 is a good idea ? Its getting cold outside,tg for remote start.
I'm running Mobile 1 0w30 with no problems.
computertech
12-03-2010, 06:40 AM
I'm running Mobile 1 0w30 with no problems.
I was thinking about going that route with these frigid temps we have up here now.....
I am also eager to find a way to reduce the start up race, or whatever you wanna call it.....I mean when you 1st hit the key, the way the engine goes to
1200-1400 rpm s cold ! Dry starting has got to be not good......:eek:
I have heard there is a tune adjustment to remove that.....
Any ideas ????
thanks :burnout:
RacerX
12-03-2010, 07:14 AM
Do you think 0w/20 is a good idea ? Its getting cold outside,tg for remote start.
Yes! 0W20 in the Northeast is a very good idea.
Marauderjack
12-03-2010, 07:18 AM
I was thinking about going that route with these frigid temps we have up here now.....
I am also eager to find a way to reduce the start up race, or whatever you wanna call it.....I mean when you 1st hit the key, the way the engine goes to
1200-1400 rpm s cold ! Dry starting has got to be not good......:eek:
I have heard there is a tune adjustment to remove that.....
Any ideas ????
thanks :burnout:
I've used Mobil I 0W30 for several years with good results!!:beer:
The engine "Flare" that you get on start up is on purpose to instantly rush oil to the upper parts of the engine and with no load the wear is minimal unless you let the car sit for long periods between starts....even then it is still minimal!! :cool:
If you are that concerned you can install a pre-oiler to apply oil pressure before you crank it over?? ;)
I have to agree about the extra oil not making any difference, mine was close to a quart low when I changed it, didn't have any noise... I've run a 2v 4.6 with only three quarts in it and it never ticked...
RF Overlord
12-03-2010, 10:37 AM
I am also eager to find a way to reduce the start up race, or whatever you wanna call it.....I mean when you 1st hit the key, the way the engine goes to 1200-1400 rpm s cold!That startup rev is there on purpose to help heat the O2 sensors. It's not hurting anything.
Dry starting has got to be not good...It isn't "dry-starting". There's still plenty of oil clinging to everything and protecting the motor until pressure comes up.
Blackened300a
12-03-2010, 03:15 PM
I run 5w20 at all times, all seasons. I hit the key and I have the startup flare but no rattles or noises. That's even after letting the car sit for a month.
ByronRACE
10-21-2011, 02:53 PM
It's been about 40,000 miles since my last update where I spoke about running additional oil in the pan and experiencing the valvetrain ticking noise being remedied. That remained true...until now.
It's back. Same exact noise, comes and goes, drivers head, only louder.
Why it stayed away for 40,000 miles and decided to return now, I really don't know. Nor do I know if oil level really solved anything...but as soon as I started running an extra quart in the pan, the noise went away for a very long time.
The engine now has nearly 100,000 miles on it. I'm considering pulling it. I believe the drivers head has the cooling passage issue and will need to be replaced, and if I'm going to do that, I may as well either rebuild or replace the passengers head at the same time. If I'm going that deep into it, servicing the timing chain seems to make sense as well. The bottom end seems fine, but hey...as long as I've got it that far apart...LOL.
I'll probably take the car down for the winter and basically rebuild the whole engine.
Or, I'll bite the bullet and buy a crate Aluminator for it and make the swap in a weekend.
I'm in the process of troubleshooting my drivers side ticking noise, it's loud enough to cause worry lines.
Checked spark plugs = OK, tight and burning OK.
Did a compression check and #6 cylinder is 60 Lbs lower that 5,7 & 8 (which are the same pressure reading).
Pulled the drivers side valve cover but didn't see anything amiss. How would you tell if a part was't outright broken off.
Wondering if a sticky cam follower could cause low compression?
Can anyone say?
stevengerard
10-28-2011, 05:11 PM
I've has a ticking noise come and go for 6 years 55,000 miles. Two places suggested I rebuild the engine that long ago - another said "unfortunately these 4.6 DOHC are noisy, you should be fine"
So far so good though I wish it would go away
So I read a the ticking threads and this is the closest one I have to my symptoms which started maybe 2k ago. I have a warranty that is about to run out in one month heh. It got cold 2 days ago and I haven't heard it since then. Is that a clue?:banana2: Thing about my tick is that its only heard when I hit the gas.
It was above 70 degrees for first time in a while and it totally started ticking again today?
After more reading and consultations, the valve lashers are probably OK, the low compression is probably the best clue, a worn valve guide(s) or a separated valve seat due to a recent overheating issue. Either way it's head xchange or new head. Looking at 4K. (labor costs are huge)
For KIlo; my ticking is constant, idle to 5K+ RPM. You might tell us what kind and weight of oil you are using. That can play a role. Also do a compression check if you can. See if that narrows it down.
Could also be chain tensioners, they are hydraulic and wear out causing a ticking sound. See U-tube videos on subject, key words, valve ticking.
ByronRACE
09-26-2013, 02:42 PM
Just thought I'd follow up. 147K miles on the clock now, ticking still comes and goes. NO change. No consequences to date. If I run a quart of STP in the oil the noise goes away until the next oil change. This is definitely lifter/follower related, but I can't seem to find it and I'm not going to replace the entire valvetrain nor am I going to take it apart 32 times until I get lucky. Such is life, tick tick tick tick tick; at least I know it's running.
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