Need some advice

[Local Boy]

Aloha Everyone...:beer:

This question is for the Bronco...

Background info:
It has a 331 stroked 5.0, bored 30* over with a 174 roots blower. It puts out @ 15 lbs of boost, and has @ 8-1 compression.

The problem I'm having is that it runs hot. I think it's because the timming goes too advance while stepping on it. It has 16* initial timming with 18* centrifical advance (stop). I got the spark retard to kick in @ 1 pound of boost and pulls 3* of timming with each pound of boost anything less and it pings.

I want to try to lock out the advance timming, and run the intial timming at @ 20 -22*, and have the spark retard reduced to pull @ 1* of timming for each pound of boost.

I'm thinking that because it has 4:88 gears, the motor spins up quick, and increases the timming too fast before it produces boost (negating the spark retard, until the boost come in). I have the strongest springs in it (MSD Pro-Billet distributor) to try to slow down the timming curve: but I think it is still increasing the timming too fast, because of the gears.

I have a meth injection set up on this motor, but don't want to rely on it for every day driving to cool it off.

Do you guys think I'm going in the right direction?

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.....:beer:

Thanks...

[blazen71]

Is your radiator big enough? If you're running a stock size radiator it may only be good enough for the 6 cyl or 302 that would have came stock.

[Local Boy]

Thanks for your reply Brutha...

It is a four core aluminum Rad., I believe it is big enough...

Aloha

[blazen71]

That rad. is more than enough!

[musclemerc]

What are you running for a WP and fan combo? those SBF's normaly run pretty cool 200deg and under... Hmmmm

[prchrman]

I am simple so here is my simple answer. Change the thermostat just for giggles. Easy to do and eliminates one variable. Water pump? Just saying with that big of a rad you should be good regardless of boost if you have good water pump and thermo.

[Local Boy]

Thanks guys for your help...

I have a 160* stat, and a high flow (best I could find) WP. Because of the blower snout, I have to run a "push" 10' fan between the grill and Rad....No room to mount the fan in the "Pull" location. I also have dual 10' fans mounted under the Rad. blowing up between the Rad and motor to help circulate the under hood air.

Up-date: I locked out the timming advance and set the intial timming at 22*, and reduced the amount of spark retard that is pulled. Runs cooler...It didn't get to 250*, but still went into the 220* range...Locking it out seems to have helped alot, with regard to drivablility and cooling it down a bit.

Is 220* too hot? I'm begining to wonder if thats the best it will get...If so I may have to run the meth injection all the time (UGH)...Maybe increase the spark retard a little bit more?

Keep it coming guys...

Thanks Again...

Aloha

[musclemerc]

For that block I would say yes. What are you running for a gauge? I personally think it's the fan set-up, it's not working efficiently enough to keep the rad cool. Change that 160 out to a 180 and figure a way if you can to run a shroud and get rid of the other fans. I used to build Mustangs with that same combo but used a centri SC and my temps were 190deg constantly. If I saw 220 I would pull over and shut it down. Chevy's like to run past 210, SBF's don't i'm surprised she is'nt dieseling on you at that temp.

[blazen71]

I would agree with the others that your fan set-up may not be efficient. I don't think you should have to pull timing. Also try some Water Wetter additive. If you run that with distilled water it can lower coolant temps 5-10 deg.

[Local Boy]

Thanks guys!

I do have water wetter and distilled water in it...to try to bring it down...no luck...Bummer!...I does start to buck in 1st gear when it gets that hot...I have an autometer WT gauge...I was affraid the fan set up was not good enough...My problem is there is no room for a shroud or fan behind the Rad...the blower idler pulley and belt sits @ 1/2 inch from the back of the Rad....

I can fab up a shroud for the front of the RAD, to make sure the air "pushed" does not move off to the sides of the Rad, which is whats happening now. But I was concerned that it would also prevent the air to pass through while driving....

I guess the question here is if I put a shroud on the front (pusher fan) of the Rad will it negatively affect coolant temps, since the air will only come in through the 10' fan opening while driving.

What's your thoughts?

Thanks Again!

Aloha

[musclemerc]

I think you should consider stepping down to a 1" 2 row aluminum rad and push it forward into the grill area and do a electric fan from a 95 t-bird.
Can you send me a top view of the current set up?

[Local Boy]

That's a VERY interesting approach...Hmmmm

I certainly will put up a pic of the fan set up...when I get home from work today...

Thanks Soooo much Brutha...

Aloha

[musclemerc]

Your Welcome Local Boy, I will check for the PM. When you take the pic get on a short ladder and shoot straight down. Maybe we can get a fix for the heat issue

[Mr. Man]

Try running straight water and some Royal Purple Ice.

[TooManyFords]

The problem I'm having is that it runs hot. I think it's because the timming goes too advance while stepping on it. It has 16* initial timming with 18* centrifical advance (stop). I got the spark retard to kick in @ 1 pound of boost and pulls 3* of timming with each pound of boost anything less and it pings.

I think the initial and advance is about right, but at 15psi it would have tried to pull 45*, which puts your timing at 11* ATDC and that would definitely make it run hot.

So, what is the timing when you are are at 0 PSI, building boost? I would try to achieve timing in the range of 10* - 12* at WOT at 15PSI, assuming premium fuel. Take out 2* if you only have 90-91 octane.

Next, have you put a wide-band OS sensor on it yet? Is it running rich or lean? This too affects how hot the motor runs and whether or not it will ping at different boost levels. If I had to guess, I would say it might be running lean under boost and that will definitely ruin your day. I am again going to guess and say you have a carb on this, so take the secondary jets and up them 2-4 sizes and try my settings.

John

[Local Boy]

I wish it was that easy...Mr Man...Thanks for your support Brutha...

Thanks John for your insight...

When I had the centri. advance operational, I had all the timming 32*-34* coming in at 2,800 rpm's...This would happen at 0 psi or just before it gets to 0 psi (still in vacum), because I think the 4:88 gears would spin up the motor real quick. I'm thinking that the motor is under load at this time, and spark retard not kicking in yet, causing it to run really hot.

Yes, I have a carb on it...The first dyno showed I was in the 14's at WOT...So I stepped up the jets 6 sizes larger on both primary and secondary sides to get it down. Recent dynos showed the A/F in the low 11's, but Hp is WAY low causing me to look at the timming being too advanced, and firing when the piston is trying to come up.

Now that I locked out the advance...with the inital timming at 22*, if I pull 1* per pound of boost I will get in the range you suggest. I only have 91 octane here.

This might be a two issue problem:
1. Poor fan cooling - I'll get those pics up (musclemerc)
2. Timming

Keep it coming guys...I really appreciate all the help you guys can offer...

Aloha

[TooManyFords]

I still think you're pulling too much timing. How much over/under driven is the blower?

For more help, check out Blower Driver Service's FAQ page. I've found it very helpful having had to figure a lot of things out on my own with the 6-71 blower.

http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/faq.php

Hope this helps.

[Local Boy]

Thanks for the link John...

I'll go home and do my homework...

I'll get back to you guys after I try out some of your suggestions...

You guys are the GREATEST!

Aloha

[TooManyFords]

One last thing, are you absolutely sure that the box that is pulling timing under boost is really working? When it was on the dyno, was someone watching both the boost gauge and the timing light?

And finally, I cannot believe you haven't posted pictures of this yet!

LOL!

[Local Boy]

I gotta say your'e good John! Thank you...

After a dyno run@ a few months ago (very poor #'s), took it home, confirmed that the spark retard was not working...Got a presure pump, and fixed the S.R....Went back to the dyno, it still heated up and put out very poor #'s....Took out the motor, had it totally rebuilt by the best racing/machine shop on the island (thought I had hurt it because of the really low #'s)...Found out that the blower had a damaged oil seal which caused it to empy all the 90 wt. oil into the motor...everyting had a thick gummy black film all over it...Pistons were still good but the valves were cupping...upgraded the valves and springs (double) and everything else on this thing...Re-built the blower...and here we are...

It's still in the break in phase, only @ 100 miles on her so far, so no dyno yet...It continues to run Hot...and I do believe that I have to get a hold on this Timming issue... trying to get into the 600 range... Improving my cooling set-up will always be a +....

But, to answer your questions...No, the operator was just watching the boost gauge, and relied on my belief (at the time) that the S.R. was working...After a few pulls, we realized the unit might not be working...as there was no change when the unit was adjusted, on different runs...

Up-Date: I bumped up the intial timming to 28*, still have the advance locked out, and have re-set the S.R. to pull 1* of timming for every 1psi of boost...this will put me in @ 12-13* BTDC, at WOT...Runs really nice, seems to sit @ 190 - 200* idling for @ 15min....Responds really quick and hard...But have not taken it out yet...had to come in to cook dinner...Family First!

LOL...My wife has the camera right now...

I'll get some pics up when she returns...

Thanks again John...and everyone else!

I'll let you guys know what happens on the test run, once I have the chance...my 5 year old stayed home from school today...not feeling so well...I'm on Daddy duty...

Aloha

[TooManyFords]

Up-Date: I bumped up the intial timming to 28*, still have the advance locked out, and have re-set the S.R. to pull 1* of timming for every 1psi of boost...this will put me in @ 12-13* BTDC, at WOT...Runs really nice, seems to sit @ 190 - 200* idling for @ 15min....Responds really quick and hard...But have not taken it out yet...had to come in to cook dinner...Family First!
Good, now reset the base timing to 12*, enable the advance to go to 32* all-in by 2800, and leave the spark retard where it is at.

Let me know how it goes.

[Local Boy]

Just came back from a short run...ran pretty good...but still got into the 220* range...took a little longer to get there, but still got there.

I had it set up that way before a decided to try to lock out the advance, John...It over heated badly...That's when it went into the 250* range...I dunno...It seems that at 2,800 rpm, I'm still in vacum, but 'am loading the motor at the same time (no boost yet)...I should note that I sit right around that rpm while going @ 60 mph....So I hover around that rpm while still in vacum, for a good amount of time....That's why I thought about locking it out...I'm no mechanic, but it seems as though this thing is not following conventional logic. Seems like it gets better (slowly) by locking out the advance, and bumping up the base timming...?

Thanks for stick'in with me on this, John...

Gotta go pick up the daugther...

Be back soon...

Aloha

[TooManyFords]

I have just one question;

When you have the initial timing set to 28*, what RPM does it idle at?

[Local Boy]

@800-850rpms...with the Alt. charging....900-1,000 without charging...I can get it lower, but the idle loop gets more pronounced...

I was wondering...Does a "stroker" motor have different timming specs?....Since the longer travel of the piston? This is my first...

Aloha

[Windsor58]

Just for grins, I'd suggest unpluging the two bottom fans and see if it makes any difference in the temp. Just seems to me that the front fan is pushing through the rad, and the bottom fans are pushing air up behind the rad, increasing the pressure slightly behind the rad. That might make the airflow through the rad slower (the bottom fans might even push air back to front through the rad around the edges). If you unplug the bottom fans and it runs a little cooler that might help a bit, but it obviously is not all of the problem, just a small part, though, maybe...

Anyway, it is easy to try and cheep (free). Might get you a couple degrees lower, if my theory is correct. If it does, the next thing to try is to flip the bottom fans to pull air down behind the rad (create more of a low pressure area behind the rad). That might improve the airflow through the rad, if the bottoms are "pulling" too.

Anyway, just my 0.02 worth.

[Local Boy]

Interesting approach, Windsor58...Thanks for your input...

I did run it with out the fans operating...while driving I leave it off...when idling in traffic I turn it on...with it off, in traffic, it will heat up quicker...

Interesting thought though to reverse the flow to pull air, to create a low presure condition...Hmmm

I'll keep that in mind...

Here are some pics of the Rad/fan set-up (Musclemerc)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21 259&stc=1&d=1276931301

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21 261&stc=1&d=1276931301

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21 263&stc=1&d=1276931301

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21 262&stc=1&d=1276931301

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21 260&stc=1&d=1276931301

Unfortunately (Musclemerc) I won't be able to move the Rad forward because of the front support.

Hope these pics help you guys in providing suggestions...

Aloha

[TooManyFords]

@800-850rpms...with the Alt. charging....900-1,000 without charging...I can get it lower, but the idle loop gets more pronounced...

I was wondering...Does a "stroker" motor have different timming specs?....Since the longer travel of the piston? This is my first...

Aloha

Here's what I think is wrong; Either the balancer has the timing marks in the wrong position, or the pointer for this combination is wrong. With 28* of initial advance would make this motor damn near impossible to start. Then, once it did, it would idle so high that you'd know something was wrong.

I would re-degree the timing pointer on the block/balancer to confirm where TDC is and make sure you're where you should be. If by some stroke of luck this is in fact correct (and I would be willing to bet it isn't), then the only other logical conclusion is that the cam was not indexed correctly when installed and the pointers on the timing chain are not lined up correctly.

You could theoretically have 28* of timing at idle if the cam was so far off as to not have hardly anything in the cylinder when it fired.

No, go pull the #1 plug and use the piston stop method to find TDC and verify the timing pointer is correct. What I am thinking is that when the balancer says 28*, it is really at 6*-10* and you've been off all the time.

John

[TooManyFords]

Oh. and AWESOME Bronco!

:banana2:

[TooManyFords]

And, you could always fly me out there to fix it for ya!

:banana2: :banana2:

[Local Boy]

GOOD SHOT!...John!

I'll go see if that's the case....

I'll get back to ya...

Thanks!

Aloha

[Local Boy]

Believe me John, if I could, I would have you on the next flight to Hawai'i...:)

Here's what I found...

TDC is actually 14* ATDC on the balancer...No wonder this thing wasn't following any logic...

Is it as simple as just using 14* ATDC as 0* (zero), and just shooting the base timming form that point, or are there other issues that make this more complex?

I have never experienced this problem...I have to believe that the balancer is the culprit...The shop that built it is just too good to make this kind of mistake...and the balancer is an aftermarket one.

Aloha

[TooManyFords]

Believe me John, if I could, I would have you on the next flight to Hawai'i...:)

Here's what I found...

TDC is actually 14* ATDC on the balancer...No wonder this thing wasn't following any logic...

Is it as simple as just using 14* ATDC as 0* (zero), and just shooting the base timming form that point, or are there other issues that make this more complex?

I have never experienced this problem...I have to believe that the balancer is the culprit...The shop that built it is just too good to make this kind of mistake...and the balancer is an aftermarket one.

Aloha

Basically, yes. Your balancer is 14* advanced so you subtract 14* from everything. When your base timing was 28*, it was really 14* and that is why is idled well and ran good. So leave it at 28*, set the advance on the distributor to 46* all-in by 2800 rpm and then let the sparlk retard pull 1* for every pound of boost.

Or, just go get a replacement timing strip for the balancer and relabel it correctly. Then use the correct numbers.

Let me know how it goes.

John

[Local Boy]

Right-on, John!...:beer: Now this is starting to make sense...:bows:

I tried 14* base with 18* advance and it pinged like crazy...even with the S.R. turned all the way up...I'm sure the 91 octane fuel and 15lbs of boost is not agreeing with eachother...:shake: WT got to 210* and was cooling when it was idling...:rolleyes: So, I think I'm close to getting this thing set up right...

I'm using 14* as my 0*, and set the base at 8* with the advance stop at 18* (it's the largest adv. stop MSD has), all coming in @ 2,500rpms...8 + 18 = 26* Total timming...Ran good with this set up w/ the S.R. pulling 1* for every 1 psi...

Didn't have the chance to take it out for an extended drive though...Just around the block...I'll get it out tomorrow, I'm think'en it's going to be fine...

I must say... I believe you identified the source of my problems, John:beer:....the rest is just the tuning aspect, now...I hope...

Thank you VERY MUCH for all your help with this...:beer:
You were kind enough to lend your help, and stick with this t'ill the end, ... I will remain forever grateful for that!:beer:

Thanks to everyone who took the time to help in this endeavor...Your kindness will not be forgotten...:beer:

Aloha...:beer:

[-Matt-]

what a cool thread!